Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Donnywolf on January 10, 2019, 08:15:54 am
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I only really thought of this yesterday - and have never seen it mentioned anywhere else - but I am interested !
In the future we are all going to be driving E Cars it seems. There are an increasing number of charging Points (like the ones at Asda for example always occupied by non electric Cars) but nontheless there will need to be millions more
However given the huge amount of on Street parking - think your local Street or your route to work and the number of Cars there NOW - how many of those Cars will be able to get to a Charging point ?
The convenience of these Cars is supposed to be that you charge them overnight and drive off to work - or the Shops where if the Car needs charging again then you do it there and drive home.
I expect the ranges of each model will increase as they have been consistently doing and presume Charging facilities will improve - maybe we will be running on Hydrogen Cells or something out of Back to the Future BUT till then will there be loads of Cables leaving each house in the Streets trailing across the Paths to each Car and if yes will you have to have a space alloted within "reach" of your Charging Point as you cant "fill up" if not
OR
Will the Streets be empty of Cars as huge custom built Car Parks with Charging are "provided" for a fee and all the Cars go there at night (extremely unlikely)
Will Asda provide many more - lets say hundreds of Charging spots ? Not all Cars will need Charging at the same time of course - and will those with fully charged Cars still inconsiderately pinch the disabled spots as they are nearer to the Doors or almost as bad park in the Charging Bays even though they dont need them
I could go on (and usually do) as there are loads more logistical but not perhaps logical questions still whirling in my head. I have been a bit flippant but seriously what do others think ?
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I'm good at laying cables if they need a hand with that.
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Stop worrying your pretty little head JT.
In a few years me and thee will be too decrepit to drive owt.
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I like the look of the Tesla X. I’d definitely have one.
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A lot of people park their car in the drive/front garden. They would be able to have a charging point fixed to the house or cable into the house wouldn't they ?
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Yes but then a lot of modern developments don't allow for that and a lot still have random street parking.
Suspect electric will work for some.but not all.
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Wolfie, I have a friend who lives in Bentley who has an electric car, but no off-road parking.
He actually does put the charging cable through his letterbox at night and plugs it in, in the hallway of his house.
I have discussed the points you raise with quite a few people.
If you consider a typical motorway fuel station with say, twenty pumps.
It takes about five minutes to fill up and go and pay, so in theory at busy times you would get twenty cars every five minutes through, around 240 cars per hour.
I know that isn’t actually how it goes, but it could happen.
Even if it was half of that it is still quite a lot of cars going through in an hour.
I don’t know how long it would take to fully charge an electric car but if they had twenty charging points I am sure they wouldn’t get that many cars through in an hour.
As you say JT, where are all the charging points going to be for people to charge their cars at night and more so, for people making onward journeys.
If you were travelling by all electric car to say, Gillingham, to watch the Rovers, how much extra “charging time” would you have to add to the time you would be travelling.
As a driver of a diesel car I am looking at electric hybrid options available to me for when I next swap.
Obviously the hybrids switch from electric to petrol but the future all electric cars will need a serious amount of charging points available for them and will need to have a better range of distance on one charge.
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I envisage huge traffic jams because of hundreds, nay thousands of cars with flat batteries blocking up the roads.
The current situation as it stands couldn't cope with the recharging demands.
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I envisage huge traffic jams because of hundreds, nay thousands of cars with flat batteries blocking up the roads.
The current situation as it stands couldn't cope with the recharging demands.
Yep, the motorways would be like the M2 is going to be post Brexit.
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I envisage huge traffic jams because of hundreds, nay thousands of cars with flat batteries blocking up the roads.
The current situation as it stands couldn't cope with the recharging demands.
Yep, the motorways would be like the M2 is going to be post Brexit.
If you listen to some of the Remainers we'll all be too skint to have vehicles post Brexit!
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the charging infrastructure will have to keep up, but I don't think there will be a problem.
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I just thought - picking a random Street - any one of the Hyde Park ones where there are cars parked on each side
There would be Cables (maybe dozens) out of peoples Houses night and day. How many people would be going past them with Prams Buggies Mobility Scooters Wheelchairs
As Tommytoes "politely" put it me and him will be even more decrepit (or worse) by then but seems a big problem looking
If May is still PM maybe she will provide "a strong and cable governance" ?
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Cables won't be left lying around for long in these parts. Our 'travelling' community will quickly eliminate that particular problem.
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I just thought - picking a random Street - any one of the Hyde Park ones where there are cars parked on each side
There would be Cables (maybe dozens) out of peoples Houses night and day. How many people would be going past them with Prams Buggies Mobility Scooters Wheelchairs
As Tommytoes "politely" put it me and him will be even more decrepit (or worse) by then but seems a big problem looking
If May is still PM maybe she will provide "a strong and cable governance" ?
Simple. Equip them with big f**koff tyres and they'll have no problem getting over them.
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BMW have been developing contactless charging, by building charge points into flat surfaces, gets rid of the need to have charging points and cables.
I think the idea long term is for roads to have this built in so that your car charges whilst moving on the road.
Crazy times
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That sounds a very feasible idea, once they've mastered the 'flat surface' obstacle.
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It's all well and good this clean air project but how much will a gallon of electricity actually cost us?
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I know f**k all about cars but could they not make batteries that charge themselves using the kinetic energy generated by the axles?
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I know f**k all about cars but could they not make batteries that charge themselves using the kinetic energy generated by the axles?
regenerative braking is already used in a lot of electric cars, but it's impossible to charge fully using these methods due to laws of thermodynamics :cool:
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I was just about to say that. :whistle:
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BMW have been developing contactless charging, by building charge points into flat surfaces, gets rid of the need to have charging points and cables.
I think the idea long term is for roads to have this built in so that your car charges whilst moving on the road.
Crazy times
More on that here
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/road-charges-your-electric-car
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BMW have been developing contactless charging, by building charge points into flat surfaces, gets rid of the need to have charging points and cables.
I think the idea long term is for roads to have this built in so that your car charges whilst moving on the road.
Crazy times
More on that here
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/road-charges-your-electric-car
would make more sense to incorporate this technology in car parks initially - can't see councils forking out for this tech in the next 20 years, nevermind the next 10 years.
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I know f**k all about cars but could they not make batteries that charge themselves using the kinetic energy generated by the axles?
I'd have thought the simplest solution wold be to have an easily inserted/removable battery arrangement in the car. You then have two batteries - one plugged in, the other is fully charged and (say) in the boot. When the plugged in one dies (or more likely, your car tells you it needs changing), you then swap the batteries over so that you're now instantly fully charged again. Whilst driving on the second battery you take the first battery to something akin to a 'petrol station' where you swap your dead battery for a fully charged up one, just paying for the power in the new battery - which is then put in the boot ready to swap when the plugged-in battery dies, and so on. It would mean no hanging about waiting for the car itself to charge, just plug in a new battery and go. It also does away with the need for charging points. It recycles the batteries themselves as the empty ones the 'petrol station' gets are recharged by them ready to be sold on, probably the next day. It's like how calor gas is sold - if you give the gas seller an empty bottle, they only charge you for the gas in the bottle they give you, not the gas plus the bottle which is what you'd have to pay for if you didn't give them an empty.
Having said all that, I've no idea how big or heavy such a battery would be, so I don't know how practicable an idea having swappable batteries would be. Plus, it'd mean all the car manufacturers agreeing on a standard battery size and fitting attachment to make them be completely interchangable - but that could be dictated to them from above if necessary.
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Interesting discussion, fellas!
A better way to look at EV development is in the context of a change of energy supplies, and what a technology disruption means.
Check out this video, it explains it very well;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVm74yE0aUE
Some of our politicians have not understood the nature of the new industrial revolution.
As an example of what Seba is on about, see this review of the new Nissan Leaf;
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/09/nissan-leaf-e-60kwh-battery-was-it-worth-the-wait/
Key point is the range increase. The early Leaf offered 85 miles between charges...now look!
Empty roofspace (like much of the Keepmoat) fitted with solar panels feeding fast chargers is a no brainer.
You will only be driving a fartmobile in 2025 if you are totally retro.
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Imagine what tower blocks may look like with extension leads all over
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Friend of mine has a hybrid car. She wont risk getting the charging cable pinched by charging in public places when she isn’t there. Seems they cost hundreds of pounds to replace.
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I believe there is a plan to covert street lights into car charging points
https://www.thechargingpoint.com/news/articles/electric-car-lamp-post-charging-points-are-heading-to-the-uk/
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I believe there is a plan to covert street lights into car charging points
https://www.thechargingpoint.com/news/articles/electric-car-lamp-post-charging-points-are-heading-to-the-uk/
This......
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Imagine what tower blocks may look like with extension leads all over
That is a great point and indeed one of the reasons I posted this initially was to see what else there was that I had not eve thought of.
It is something that must be worked out and no doubt technology will prevail - perhaps hydrogen cells will prevail ? The Lamp post thing seems a good idea but I always go back in my mind to Hyde Park streets and the fact there will be 60 Cars and 2 Lamp posts and / or loads of cables out of front windows ?
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Most are going to charge up at the supermarket, leisure centre or at the Rovers!
Anywhere that you park up for a stretch while doing something else.
There are not going to be hundreds of cables laying across the street from houses.
Anybody with a drive or garage will top up at home. Nissan sell home battery storage packs so you can top up overnight if you charge the pack during the day from solar.
Given that the cost per km is 10x higher for a fartmobile than an EV, the cost of the solar is just paying upfront for your fuel costs. Work out how much per year you spend on petrol/diesel when you think about the overall costs.
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The Miller Homes estate that my daughter has just moved into has a charging point at every house.
I suppose the problem then will be houses with three or four adults driving four cars at the one address.
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I know f**k all about cars but could they not make batteries that charge themselves using the kinetic energy generated by the axles?
I'd have thought the simplest solution wold be to have an easily inserted/removable battery arrangement in the car. You then have two batteries - one plugged in, the other is fully charged and (say) in the boot. When the plugged in one dies (or more likely, your car tells you it needs changing), you then swap the batteries over so that you're now instantly fully charged again. Whilst driving on the second battery you take the first battery to something akin to a 'petrol station' where you swap your dead battery for a fully charged up one, just paying for the power in the new battery - which is then put in the boot ready to swap when the plugged-in battery dies, and so on. It would mean no hanging about waiting for the car itself to charge, just plug in a new battery and go. It also does away with the need for charging points. It recycles the batteries themselves as the empty ones the 'petrol station' gets are recharged by them ready to be sold on, probably the next day. It's like how calor gas is sold - if you give the gas seller an empty bottle, they only charge you for the gas in the bottle they give you, not the gas plus the bottle which is what you'd have to pay for if you didn't give them an empty.
Having said all that, I've no idea how big or heavy such a battery would be, so I don't know how practicable an idea having swappable batteries would be. Plus, it'd mean all the car manufacturers agreeing on a standard battery size and fitting attachment to make them be completely interchangable - but that could be dictated to them from above if necessary.
I thought exactly the same as this myself. The person who can turn this idea into reality will become a billionaire, or be assassinated by the oil companies. Until something like this comes to fruition i'll stick with petrol or diesel. Where I live it's not a realistic option to have a charging point on the wall of your house.
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It would be good if everyone came back to this thread in 2025!
Here is the plan from all the big players;
https://graphics.reuters.com/AUTOS-INVESTMENT-ELECTRIC/010081ZB3HD/index.html
Looking like a done deal to me.
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It would be good if everyone came back to this thread in 2025!
Here is the plan from all the big players;
https://graphics.reuters.com/AUTOS-INVESTMENT-ELECTRIC/010081ZB3HD/index.html
Looking like a done deal to me.
As long I can get my hands on a Subaru with a boxer engine coupled to awd that is all I will drive.
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I suspect as autonomous driving cars increase with the rate of electric cars, I suspect one possible and feasible end game will be scrapping car ownership altogether and using services like Uber.
You request an Uber (or whatever scheme it may be in 50/60 years time) from your smartphone, the nearest self driving one turns up and takes you to where you need to be.
If we had a driverless road and just had self driving cars, there would be less congestion, less accidents and the AI would be able to calculate exactly when and where would be the best time/place to go and charge up rather than Humans who may think "I can make it 50 mile to next service station even though it only says there is 45 miles left, I'll drive more economically for this next hour".
Obviously we are nowhere near that yet and I suspect hybrids will be more popular than fully electric cars to begin with and they are a more economic choice for consumers to try and phase out fully diesel and petrol engines.
Many manufacturers have tried hydrogen cars (not fuel cells) - they would need filling up like petrol but hydrogen is cheaper than fuel, is in unlimited supply and is much more greener than any electric or petrol/diesel car. However all so far have been so expensive they have never really caught on.
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The most important question will be, where, on what, and how will the tax be levied?
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You'll probably have to declare an annual odometer reading and then be charged so much per mile. A bit like a gas/electric reading.
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Big black market coming then for winding the meters back.
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That's a bit last millennium.
Why not just have a chip wirelessly sending the mileage data back to Swansea. With an alert to traffic police if the chip is tampered with.
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I suspect as autonomous driving cars increase with the rate of electric cars, I suspect one possible and feasible end game will be scrapping car ownership altogether and using services like Uber.
You request an Uber (or whatever scheme it may be in 50/60 years time) from your smartphone, the nearest self driving one turns up and takes you to where you need to be.
There's no way I would share a car! You don't know what scruffy tramp has been riding around in it or what they have been doing! I would rather have my own vehicle even if it cost four times as much to run. This is the reason I wouldn't buy a used car or use public transport. I would rather save up and get a new one but keep it for a long time and get my moneys worth out of it.
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Grade2listed in a word heritage site. No off at parking how the fek am I going to charge the thing! Not even allowed to change the garden gate colour??
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Ah, finally, an off topic question I actually know stuff about!
I have a PHEV hybrid as a company car (Mercedes C350e) and I am heavily involved in the EV infrastructure debate/solution through my work.
Right, to address some of the points raised.....
Owning and operating an EV is different to owning and operating an ICE (internal combustion engined) vehicle. As many have said, the key charge points will be at home or work or a leisure/shopping facility, not at a dedicated "petrol station" type arrangement. If development leans towards this, then there would need to be some commitment from the manufactures to standardise on Fast Charge technology, such as Tesla's Supercharger network, which can deliver energy for 100s of miles of range in around 20 minutes. Presently, I'm working with a number of organisations (providers and customers) to match up their requirement to innovative solutions. We are seeing a falling in the cost of the charger technology - a couple of years ago a fast charger unit (Generally up to 50kW) was about £30k to buy and install, this is now down to about £15k. Most of the public charge points are 7.2kW and take hours to charge an EV, but these decisions were taken on price over practicality - organisations wanted to show their green credentials by supporting EV charging but werent prepared to throw £30k a pop at it, which was fair enough.
Street lighting having integrated charge points is certainly one way to bridge the gap for those with no off-street parking, but there is a real debate going on over trip risk over the cables and who is liable in cases of personal injury. This only really works where the street lighting is at the kerbside, not at the rear of the footpath too, although there have been some innovative channels designed to take a feed from the lighting column under the footpath and present a charge point at the kerbside. That opened up another debate on trip hazards over charge point covers left open.....
Charging at public EV points actually carries little risk of your cable being stolen. The cable locks into the vehicle with the central locking, so even if the charger unit doesnt lock it in at their end (very few do) removing the cable is impossible without cutting the end connector off, rendering it nothing more than a 3m bit of cable worth naff all.
Conductive charging buried in the roads (particularly in locations where vehicles stop regularly, e.g. traffic lights, car parks) began being developed about 2 or 3 years ago. BMW and Mercedes have these in the pipeline as mats for home use. Just lay them on your drive, secure them down and just park your car over the top as normal. Conductive has transfer speed limitations, though, so these need to be worked through, especially with Li-Ion batteries in EVs getting larger and offering greater range.
Glyn's suggestion of removable batteries and charge one whilst using one is a non-starter with current tech, but could be a go-er in the future. The Li-Ion cells are large and heavy, and in most vehicles are distributed under the floor pan to spread the additional weight across the chassis and not kill the car's handling. Imagine driving a car with a quarter ton weight in the boot. Great fun in the snow and wet! However, new battery technology is developing at a rapid rate. Graphene is light, relatively easy to manufacture, can be layered to increase storage density, charges to capacity in minutes rather than hours, and provides rapid discharge rates which are ideal to deliver the instant power to an electric motor to create the torque required to get a 2 ton mass moving. However, graphene discharges really quickly at full load, so more work to be done. Expect to see graphene batteries appear in mobile phones first, probably in the next couple of years. They will be incredibly thin and light and a full charge will take mere minutes.
The infrastructure question is very interesting. We keep hearing about shortages in electricity and gas when we have a 2beast from the east" type event, and the Tories have banged on about the Energy Trillema and "keeping the lights on". Security of supply will be a major issue under a no deal Brexit, for example. International connectors mean we can currently bring power and gas from the near continent within agreed quotas. This will all be up in the air if we dont sort out a full deal ahead of March 29th. There is also the issue of the peaky nature of renewable tech, which underlines why we need a diverse mix of generation. Wind turbines generate when the wind is blowing, not necessarily when demand is there to consume it, so often turbines will have the brakes applied, especially at night. Nuclear, biomass and gas remain part of the electricity generation mix core, with coal still in use but only now contributing about 6% generation nationally. However, the current nuclear fleet is rapidly approaching its end of life. They were built to have a 25 year life and all of them are older than that, which is testament to their owners (mainly EDF) for how they have maintained them well. None of them will be viable in another 10 years. Hinkley Point C has been funded by the Chinese with a MW strike price of just short of £100. The market is currently around £60/MW, so this looks incredibly poor value but is the price the government elected to pay to secure the investment. The project is now forecasting a couple of years delay on completion and costs have risen by many £millions. Hitachi have just pulled out of their contract to build more nuclear power stations, and it remains to be seen whether anyone else will step in at these sites.
What is really interesting is the amount of energy that goes into crude oil refinery to create petrol and diesel. I read a study last year that highlighted that if we kept the existing infrastructure and just stopped oil refinery we would save enough electricity to power 8 million EVs each year.
I could go on, but I wont. I've probably bored you all pantless already! ;)
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Interesting points Rob.
I saw a very interesting presentation through work this week, which raised an issue that I'd never thought about before.
Our electricity network currently serves only about 20% of our total national energy consumption. Gas (mainly for donestic and industrial heating) accounts for about 55-60% and petrol/diesel (mainly for vehicles) most of the other 20-25%.
The point of the presentation was that, if we switch to electric powered vehicles, we will need a significant investment in the electricity delivery network over and above the cost of charging points. Because the current network would be highly overloaded if it had to deliver twice as much power as it currently does.
The improvement to the network can be done, but it will need a big investment. I'm not really following the debate closely but I've certainly not seen anyone discussing that issue.
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It's certainly a legitimate concern, Billy. Already in the south west we are seeing restrictions on new connections to grid as the substations are over capacity. Exceeding maximum demand presents a real risk of fire and explosion at the substation, which is why change control DCP161 was brought in about a year ago to introduce penalty charges for exceeding your stated maximum demand (applies to Half Hourly settled non-domestic supplies only)
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Just what I was going to say, Rob.
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One 'Fix' is a power line from Iceland they have a massive over capacity due to Geothermal energy. I Seemtorecall that it's already been planned and will ost £4 Billion to build.
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Substations will certainly need to be upgraded, but surely that would need to happen anyway.
On the broader question of the overall electricity supplied through the network, maybe it is more an issue of meeting times of peak demand.
Demand for electricity will increase with electric vehicles, but will be offset to some degree by improvements in energy efficiency of appliances in the future.
There is a big shift underway to provide future energy supply from renewables, because they are cheaper than other methods.
Intermittent production needs storage capacity to level out availability on demand.
The research funding going into battery chemistry and tech is key.
Gains in battery capacity are promoted by the need to increase EV range, but they will also increase static storage capability, and reduce its marginal cost.
The interesting point is how grid balancing will be achieved.
If everyone plugs in at the same time, like the half time cuppa, then a surge in demand needs to be met by despatchable capacity.
The answer is probably battery storage on the supply side, and dynamic pricing to match demand to availabilty of resource.
It will be cheaper to recharge when the resource is fully available, helping to level out the peak demand.
It is worth considering that some electricity demand could be removed from the grid by home storage.
As batteries continue to get cheaper and more powerful, then the economics of home production and use change as well.
The Tesla powerwall, and the Nissan PV plus battery package, are the first offers in this sector.
https://www.nissan.co.uk/experience-nissan/electric-vehicle-leadership/storage-solutions.html
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And using the elect ic car as a home energy storage facility so that you can go "off grid" for half an hour when demand is at its peak, then recharge your car overnight.
The whole Demand Side Response (DSR) piece is really interesting. I did a project not too long ago with a council who put a whole load of shipping containers filled with Li-Ion batteries on some unused ground and just filled them at night (cheap, low demand) and sold the energy back to grid between 4pm and 7pm when demand was at its peak and prices higher. Lots of organisation s are currently paid tons of cash every year for either shutting down early when peak demand will outstrip supply, or turn on diesel generators for half an hour instead of drawing grid electricity (its called the STOR scheme)
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3 great and informative answers there RTR - thanks
Must admit the last bit made me chuckle - brilliant thinking by them - store it cheap and sell it later at a profit !
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Wireless charging.
https://www.engadget.com/2019/02/11/witricity-qualcomm-halo-ev-wireless-charging/
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My bos has got a Tesla, just been in it, what a car, and the instant Torque on and elictric car like that is awesome
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They will come down in price, and have even more range, quite quickly once production scales up.
Here is an interesting summary;
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/23/electric-cars-are-about-to-absolutely-demolish-gasmobiles/
Like I said earlier, see what the choices are by 2025.
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Cars skinned with photo electric cells.....
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They will come down in price, and have even more range, quite quickly once production scales up.
Here is an interesting summary;
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/23/electric-cars-are-about-to-absolutely-demolish-gasmobiles/
Like I said earlier, see what the choices are by 2025.
So it will no longer be possible to drive to anymore games and home in the day if they are more than 120 miles away?
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Axholme,
You will be able to recharge at many locations, just like filling up at a petrol station.
Not getting your point here.
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Axholme,
You will be able to recharge at many locations, just like filling up at a petrol station.
Not getting your point here.
My point is that on a drive down to London if I need to refill it's five minutes in the petrol station, whereas how long would it take to charge the car? Surely this would make long one day journeys impossible?
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Axholme,
You will be able to recharge at many locations, just like filling up at a petrol station.
Not getting your point here.
My point is that on a drive down to London if I need to refill it's five minutes in the petrol station, whereas how long would it take to charge the car? Surely this would make long one day journeys impossible?
A Tesla would route you the best way to get from A to B using the Tesla supercharger network, you put your route into the touch screen on the Tesla and it will work out a route, where you need to stop and how long for, the Telsa will also tell you via an app when your car has enought charge to carry on with your journey
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Axholme,
You will be able to recharge at many locations, just like filling up at a petrol station.
Not getting your point here.
My point is that on a drive down to London if I need to refill it's five minutes in the petrol station, whereas how long would it take to charge the car? Surely this would make long one day journeys impossible?
A Tesla would route you the best way to get from A to B using the Tesla supercharger network, you put your route into the touch screen on the Tesla and it will work out a route, where you need to stop and how long for, the Telsa will also tell you via an app when your car has enought charge to carry on with your journey
I think we're a long way off being able to use them in the real world other than for pottering around in it would seem.
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https://www.thegreenage.co.uk/tech/environmental-footprint-electric-cars/
Maybe they should be looking at the carbon footprint of smart phones which are a luxury, other than cars which are essential.
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Batteries getting cheaper quicker;
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-12/electric-vehicle-battery-shrinks-and-so-does-the-total-cost
Closing in on Axholme now...change is a-coming!
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Batteries getting cheaper quicker;
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-12/electric-vehicle-battery-shrinks-and-so-does-the-total-cost
Closing in on Axholme now...change is a-coming!
Ha ha :)
My Mrs is swapping her car in few months time, petrol is the safest option at the moment.
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Batteries getting cheaper quicker;
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-12/electric-vehicle-battery-shrinks-and-so-does-the-total-cost
Closing in on Axholme now...change is a-coming!
Ha ha :)
My Mrs is swapping her car in few months time, petrol is the safest option at the moment.
I swapped my diesel X3 for a petrol X3, gone from 37mpg to 21mpg and an increase of £300 on road tax
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Batteries getting cheaper quicker;
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-12/electric-vehicle-battery-shrinks-and-so-does-the-total-cost
Closing in on Axholme now...change is a-coming!
Ha ha :)
My Mrs is swapping her car in few months time, petrol is the safest option at the moment.
I swapped my diesel X3 for a petrol X3, gone from 37mpg to 21mpg and an increase of £300 on road tax
That's hefty for a petrol engine nowadays. Commuting into Doncaster my Subaru XV gives me around 37-38 mpg, that's a 2.0 litre petrol engine with permanent AWD. It does much more than that on a run driven carefully.
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I get 70-76mpg on a decent run on the motorway in my Insignia 2.0 Diesel, don't really check it on my commute but now you've mentioned it...
Only cost me £60 to drive to Plymouth and back.
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I get 70-76mpg on a decent run on the motorway in my Insignia 2.0 Diesel, don't really check it on my commute but now you've mentioned it...
Only cost me £60 to drive to Plymouth and back.
That's not bad for that distance. When I go down Millwall I normally take my Mrs's Suzuki SX4, 1.6 petrol, it costs around £45 for the trip there and back.
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I get 70-76mpg on a decent run on the motorway in my Insignia 2.0 Diesel, don't really check it on my commute but now you've mentioned it...
Only cost me £60 to drive to Plymouth and back.
That's not bad for that distance. When I go down Millwall I normally take my Mrs's Suzuki SX4, 1.6 petrol, it costs around £45 for the trip there and back.
Aye, used to drive to Scotland and back on £35-40 - compare that with a 1.6 petrol Mini at £80...
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I get 70-76mpg on a decent run on the motorway in my Insignia 2.0 Diesel, don't really check it on my commute but now you've mentioned it...
Only cost me £60 to drive to Plymouth and back.
That's not bad for that distance. When I go down Millwall I normally take my Mrs's Suzuki SX4, 1.6 petrol, it costs around £45 for the trip there and back.
Aye, used to drive to Scotland and back on £35-40 - compare that with a 1.6 petrol Mini at £80...
The problem with diesels is that when they break they can be extremely expensive to repair.
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Batteries getting cheaper quicker;
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-12/electric-vehicle-battery-shrinks-and-so-does-the-total-cost
Closing in on Axholme now...change is a-coming!
Ha ha :)
My Mrs is swapping her car in few months time, petrol is the safest option at the moment.
I swapped my diesel X3 for a petrol X3, gone from 37mpg to 21mpg and an increase of £300 on road tax
That's hefty for a petrol engine nowadays. Commuting into Doncaster my Subaru XV gives me around 37-38 mpg, that's a 2.0 litre petrol engine with permanent AWD. It does much more than that on a run driven carefully.
2.5 litre engine,AWD, the straight 6 BMW engines are a bit thirsty
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I get 70-76mpg on a decent run on the motorway in my Insignia 2.0 Diesel, don't really check it on my commute but now you've mentioned it...
Only cost me £60 to drive to Plymouth and back.
That's not bad for that distance. When I go down Millwall I normally take my Mrs's Suzuki SX4, 1.6 petrol, it costs around £45 for the trip there and back.
Aye, used to drive to Scotland and back on £35-40 - compare that with a 1.6 petrol Mini at £80...
The problem with diesels is that when they break they can be extremely expensive to repair.
Thats the reason I swapped to a petrol X3, after new turbo, new injectors, new egr valve and new intercooler
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Batteries getting cheaper quicker;
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-12/electric-vehicle-battery-shrinks-and-so-does-the-total-cost
Closing in on Axholme now...change is a-coming!
Ha ha :)
My Mrs is swapping her car in few months time, petrol is the safest option at the moment.
I swapped my diesel X3 for a petrol X3, gone from 37mpg to 21mpg and an increase of £300 on road tax
I can’t believe that you didn’t know about those differences Filo so why did you do that?
Edit: Just seen the above post.
Still seems a bit extreme though. My X5 does 32mpg just knocking about and about 36/38 on a motorway run.
Diesel of course.
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I get 70-76mpg on a decent run on the motorway in my Insignia 2.0 Diesel, don't really check it on my commute but now you've mentioned it...
Only cost me £60 to drive to Plymouth and back.
That's not bad for that distance. When I go down Millwall I normally take my Mrs's Suzuki SX4, 1.6 petrol, it costs around £45 for the trip there and back.
Aye, used to drive to Scotland and back on £35-40 - compare that with a 1.6 petrol Mini at £80...
The problem with diesels is that when they break they can be extremely expensive to repair.
Aye, true enough. Mine is an ex sales rep's car so got a lot of miles on it but it's just past the stage where it needed all the shite doing at 100k and never had any issues since I got it.
No tax on mine though and it's pennies to run compared to a petrol so swings and roundabouts, I guess.
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No tax on mine either (45g/km carbon)
I have a 30 miles commute, A1/M62/M1. Usually get about 78mpg on that run. 2 litre petrol + electric, with the car deciding which (or both) is more economical to use at any point.
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Batteries getting cheaper quicker;
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-12/electric-vehicle-battery-shrinks-and-so-does-the-total-cost
Closing in on Axholme now...change is a-coming!
Ha ha :)
My Mrs is swapping her car in few months time, petrol is the safest option at the moment.
I swapped my diesel X3 for a petrol X3, gone from 37mpg to 21mpg and an increase of £300 on road tax
I can’t believe that you didn’t know about those differences Filo so why did you do that?
Edit: Just seen the above post.
Still seems a bit extreme though. My X5 does 32mpg just knocking about and about 36/38 on a motorway run.
Diesel of course.
I have to admit, I knew the mpg would take a hit, but I had no idea the road tax would be £300 dearer than a dirty diesel
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I had a Suzuki Jimny for knocking around in and the tax was £100 for six months. Outrageous for a tiny car.
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Back to the future with electric cars.
BBC reporting on using your car to feed leccy back to the grid or house:
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/science-environment-48530488/the-solar-power-charged-electric-cars-making-money
Sounds good!
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Back to the future with electric cars.
BBC reporting on using your car to feed leccy back to the grid or house:
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/science-environment-48530488/the-solar-power-charged-electric-cars-making-money
Sounds good!
At first glance, yes. But it has to assume that you're only doing shortish runs with the ability to fully charge at the end of each run. If you plan a long run then the situation changes and you'd be better not plugging the car in at night; and if you do long runs every day, (eg Sales Rep), then not useful at all.
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Fairy nuff, NNK.
For many who use the car just for short runs, they might find this useful.
Also for grid balancing of energy supply, you can top up all the mobile units when excess is generated. This means that there will be less need to pay wind turbines to turn off because the national grid cannot take their output when demand is low.
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''Should my next car be an electric one?''
''I discovered that there are more than 1,000 charging points now across Scotland including rapid charging points charging cars within 25-40 minutes.
The Scottish government says the average distance between any given location to the nearest public charging point is just 2.78 miles''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-48675303?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk&link_location=live-reporting-story
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Download the ZapMap app and have a look where the charge points are. I regularly park for free and get a free charge in Market Place Car Park in Donny. Lidl on Bentley Road is free too.
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Download the ZapMap app and have a look where the charge points are. I regularly park for free and get a free charge in Market Place Car Park in Donny. Lidl on Bentley Road is free too.
That's a really good idea, I'm afraid the Australian is wedded to coal and doing nothing about climate change Rob.
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''Should my next car be an electric one?''
''I discovered that there are more than 1,000 charging points now across Scotland including rapid charging points charging cars within 25-40 minutes.
The Scottish government says the average distance between any given location to the nearest public charging point is just 2.78 miles''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-48675303?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk&link_location=live-reporting-story
Does that rapid charging time include the time you might have to wait to use it?
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''Should my next car be an electric one?''
''I discovered that there are more than 1,000 charging points now across Scotland including rapid charging points charging cars within 25-40 minutes.
The Scottish government says the average distance between any given location to the nearest public charging point is just 2.78 miles''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-48675303?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk&link_location=live-reporting-story
Does that rapid charging time include the time you might have to wait to use it?
I think you;d have to be a bit strategic with your driving habits until charging times reduce Glyn.
My friends owned a taxi in Cairns pop 150K and the only time it made more money than a wage was when they ran a Toyota Prius hybrid.
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''Should my next car be an electric one?''
''I discovered that there are more than 1,000 charging points now across Scotland including rapid charging points charging cars within 25-40 minutes.
The Scottish government says the average distance between any given location to the nearest public charging point is just 2.78 miles''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-48675303?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk&link_location=live-reporting-story
Does that rapid charging time include the time you might have to wait to use it?
I think you;d have to be a bit strategic with your driving habits until charging times reduce Glyn.
My friends owned a taxi in Cairns pop 150K and the only time it made more money than a wage was when they ran a Toyota Prius hybrid.
You can't really plan strategy if you don't know how many people are going to be waiting to charge up until you get to the charge point...
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Get a Tesla, normal EV’s can’t use Tesla superchargers unles the vehicle has been authourized by Tesla
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''Should my next car be an electric one?''
''I discovered that there are more than 1,000 charging points now across Scotland including rapid charging points charging cars within 25-40 minutes.
The Scottish government says the average distance between any given location to the nearest public charging point is just 2.78 miles''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-48675303?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk&link_location=live-reporting-story
Does that rapid charging time include the time you might have to wait to use it?
I think you;d have to be a bit strategic with your driving habits until charging times reduce Glyn.
My friends owned a taxi in Cairns pop 150K and the only time it made more money than a wage was when they ran a Toyota Prius hybrid.
You can't really plan strategy if you don't know how many people are going to be waiting to charge up until you get to the charge point...
The article is not about me Glyn, the 'I' is the author but anyway all over Europe there are charging points for cars, bikes and scooters, charging cycles and batteries will improve it's the future and it will happen.
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I've no doubt it will happen, but knowing how laggardly Britain is with installing new technology I'm not expecting it to keep up with demand for quite a while.
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Get a Tesla, normal EV’s can’t use Tesla superchargers unles the vehicle has been authourized by Tesla
or some numb nut in a diesel (or petrol) car is parked in the designated Electric charging point !
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Listened to a guy on talkradio being interviewed, an ex Nuclear submarine engineer working for the UK government on experimental electric vehicle's.
He explained they were looking at an old technology battery based on a changeable Aluminium cassette that can be changed in 40 seconds just pull out and shove in, and some sort of chemical reaction generating an electric charge,
It works, costs are about 10 pence per mile and a range of over a thousand miles in a family car, easy to pull in and replace, the cassette, and could be taxed at source of renewal.
Sounded great, and a British invention, the problem being the amount of money car manufactures have invested in lithium batteries etc., and digging up half of Argentina he said, for the raw materials, and are reluctant to alter course.
Could we after Brexit start up British Leyland and go it alone?
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Listened to a guy on talkradio being interviewed, an ex Nuclear submarine engineer working for the UK government on experimental electric vehicle's.
He explained they were looking at an old technology battery based on a changeable Aluminium cassette that can be changed in 40 seconds just pull out and shove in, and some sort of chemical reaction generating an electric charge,
It works, costs are about 10 pence per mile and a range of over a thousand miles in a family car, easy to pull in and replace, the cassette, and could be taxed at source of renewal.
Sounded great, and a British invention, the problem being the amount of money car manufactures have invested in lithium batteries etc., and digging up half of Argentina he said, for the raw materials, and are reluctant to alter course.
Could we after Brexit start up British Leyland and go it alone?
That sounds like a good idea. Where have I heard it before? :lol:
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Boom, gone fishing, caught a big one. :woohoo:
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''Electric buses: Wales' first to hit the roads in Newport''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-49374665
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Taxi's in London taking up electric:
https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3079818/electric-taxis-have-saved-london-cabbies-gbp385m-on-fuel-costs-levc-claims
Ferries starting to swap over:
https://www.euractiv.com/section/shipping/news/worlds-largest-electric-ferry-enters-service-in-denmark/
You won't be able to afford not to soon enough!
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Policy announcement by Labour on electric cars;
https://labour.org.uk/press/john-mcdonnell-announces-interest-free-loans-electric-cars/
Interest free loans...now that is an offer!
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Both good stories Albie, it has to be the way to go.
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Maybe just seen a partial answer to my question on BBC (maybe Click)
Taiwanese people have thousands of Moped / Vespa bikes and they all run on electric which comes from 2 Batteries.
However they own the Scooters but rent the Batteries and when they are running low / running out they simply stop take out their tired Batteries at one of the 14000 recharging points and put them on to charge. Once they deposit 2 Batteries 2 more already charged once pop out - and they simply drop them in the Scooter and ride off
True they pay a small fee per week but it looks on paper a great idea. OK would need some work to get it to work Car wise but at least its a start by the look of it
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Couldn't work with cars. The batteries are physically huge and are effectively built into the car.
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Maybe the Mercedes AA class is the answer.
Worth a look on google if you don’t know about it.
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The batteries are about 40% of the cost of an EV, and contain rare earth materials.
They are designed to be replaced and re-used, and have a useful life in other applications after they lose capacity in vehicle use.
Manufacturers will want to reclaim the batteries as a key part of their business model.
Manufacturers like VW are designing a common chassis for their EV range, to enable modular removal and replacement.
The working life, charge cycle capability and extended range between recharge are all key areas of development which will improve rapidly over the near future.
It is more likely that the "battery swap" Donnywolf talks about might not needed with the new generation of batteries.
Fine for small units in the meantime though.
A new breakthrough in charging times was announced this week;
https://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/engineering-breakthrough-cuts-electric-vehicle-charging-to-just-10-minutes/
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This certainly doesn't inspire confidence that the change will be orderly?
''Questions raised over UK's state-backed fund for electric car charging
The private equity firm appointed by the government to manage as much as £400m in investment in electric car charging points has awarded millions of pounds to a company in which it holds a controlling financial interest.''
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/08/questions-raised-over-state-backed-fund-for-electric-car-charging
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UK misses out to Germany with the new Tesla gigafactory;
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/108395/tesla-gigafactory-europe-to-be-built-in-germany-not-uk-as-elon-musk-blames-brexit
Major blow, as this is the sunrise sector for transport manufacturing.
If the UK misses this new industrial revolution, then once tariffs are in place it will be more expensive to produce electric vehicles here, and to market them abroad.
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Billy, the new invention of aluminium air battery is interchangeable with a cassette, existing cars can be converted, is a British invention, and gives a range of over a thousand miles to a family car at about 12p per mile.
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Selby.
Wow. I hadn't seen that. That sounds like a game changer.
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Billy, a very good article to read about it is clean technica uk man invents aluminum air battery in his garage, it is well worth a read for a couple of minutes.
Ahem, you might want to click on the link to the Daily Mail article on the subject at the end of the article, just to research what the other lot are reading.
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People living in blocks of flats are going to have fun. Not. Likewise houses converted into bedsits. The need for parking spaces at charging points will grow exponentially as charging will continue to take longer than filling a tank. Ive got a mate lives in the US. Him and his Mrs have a big Tesla. They like it and he tells me the need to charge simply means they plan their journey with charging in mind. Whilst it is doing so, they have a cuppa and a rest so they feel better when they arrive. But I can't help wondering just how that experience will feel when everyone has leccy cars...
Another issue, of course, is just where are all the batteries going to come from? Cobalt, a vital ingredient, is in short supply now. It could be mined from the seabed, but think of the consequences....
BobG
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People living in blocks of flats are going to have fun. Not. Likewise houses converted into bedsits. The need for parking spaces at charging points will grow exponentially as charging will continue to take longer than filling a tank. Ive got a mate lives in the US. Him and his Mrs have a big Tesla. They like it and he tells me the need to charge simply means they plan their journey with charging in mind. Whilst it is doing so, they have a cuppa and a rest so they feel better when they arrive. But I can't help wondering just how that experience will feel when everyone has leccy cars...
Another issue, of course, is just where are all the batteries going to come from? Cobalt, a vital ingredient, is in short supply now. It could be mined from the seabed, but think of the consequences....
BobG
I suppose if it is mined from the seabed, the sea levels will drop as the water fills in the holes that the mining will create!
(Still can’t find that bloomin tongue in cheek emoji).
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The amount of colbolt needed is getting less and Tesla are aiming for a zero colbolt battery soon.
The air battery is a great idea but at the minute they haven't got the recharge technology so at the moment it's a throw away battery once it's sorted then it becomes decent
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link to new battery info
https://smallcaps.com.au/can-new-high-range-aluminium-air-cell-topple-lithium-ion-battery/
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The amount of colbolt needed is getting less and Tesla are aiming for a zero colbolt battery soon.
The air battery is a great idea but at the minute they haven't got the recharge technology so at the moment it's a throw away battery once it's sorted then it becomes decent
Aluminium air batteries arent a new invention. They have been around for decades. the problems with them have been the electrolyte was dangerous to health and they needed a pure aluminium to work. This chap in his shed has developed a safe alternative electrolyte and it works with lower grade aluminium, so recycled cola cans work just fine. Its very interesting stuff to make EVs viable for those without access to charging capabilities and also to reduce demand on the grid infrastructure.
We'll all be driving Austin Allegros in ten years time......
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Yes, but will they have the same 'vroom' as Allegros?
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The amount of colbolt needed is getting less and Tesla are aiming for a zero colbolt battery soon.
The air battery is a great idea but at the minute they haven't got the recharge technology so at the moment it's a throw away battery once it's sorted then it becomes decent
..... and they needed a pure aluminium to work. This chap in his shed has developed a safe alternative electrolyte and it works with lower grade aluminium, so recycled cola cans work just fine. Its very interesting stuff to make EVs viable for those without access to charging capabilities and also to reduce demand on the grid infrastructure.
... do you drop them into a Flux Capacitor as well ? That would be some "full circle"
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but what about the hysteresis loop?
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Two charging points have just been installed where I work. Just above the outside cold water tap! :lol: :facepalm:
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There are 10 or maybe its 12 in Thorne on the B&M McDees Aldi site and of course they are always full of Cars that dont need them
I have only seen 2 cars ever charging there - but being convenient for the Shops they are always full so anything that could mean people dont need out and out charging spots (or we all need them) would help though it seems a long long way off
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There are 10 or maybe its 12 in Thorne on the B&M McDees Aldi site and of course they are always full of Cars that dont need them
I have only seen 2 cars ever charging there - but being convenient for the Shops they are always full so anything that could mean people dont need out and out charging spots (or we all need them) would help though it seems a long long way off
When demand rises as they get cheaper this will all be solved, when petrol cars first arrived there wasn't a petrol station on every corner. If new battery technology turns out to be a winner it will all happen very quickly whether the combustion engine manufacturers like it or not DW. In Vietnam in the larger cities battery of the larger variety have been around a while and across Europe there are e bikes, scooters with cars being charged in rows.
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There are 10 or maybe its 12 in Thorne on the B&M McDees Aldi site and of course they are always full of Cars that dont need them
I have only seen 2 cars ever charging there - but being convenient for the Shops they are always full so anything that could mean people dont need out and out charging spots (or we all need them) would help though it seems a long long way off
When demand rises as they get cheaper this will all be solved, when petrol cars first arrived there wasn't a petrol station on every corner. If new battery technology turns out to be a winner it will all happen very quickly whether the combustion engine manufacturers like it or not DW. In Vietnam in the larger cities battery of the larger variety have been around a while and across Europe there are e bikes, scooters with cars being charged in rows.
Can't see how you can charge your car if you live in a tower block though. Also I struggle to see it catching on in rural areas.
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A very long extension cord? :)
private ownership of cars will reduce over time as it becomes cheaper and convenient to use go-get and similar, progress on this is not going to stop.
Advancement of solar panels, there ar already flexible ones means not to far away from vehicles being covered in them.
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Ground chargers? BMW now do wireless ones built into the ground. Personally I think the future will be using photo sensitive cells to skin cars
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People in tower blocks have car parks around all it would take is a charge unit and pay on card or the homes with electric cars get charged more for the car parking spot that would cover the charge
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Developers are already on the win win situation for them. In London and the surrounding areas they are building estates and tower blocks with only a third of the properties having one parking spot each.
When you acquire one of the properties, you qualify to enter a bidding process to acquire a parking spot, some are going for considerable amounts of money, the developers make a killing while saying they are encouraging saving the planet, It is a great idea for the developers, they make loads of dosh for little outlay ( a little bit of tarmac) and who gives a fig about the peasants travelling about, more room on the roads for the elite ( didn't a labour minister suggest them having their own motor lane on the motorways into London in Blair's time) to get them into the city without hindrance.
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Developers are already on the win win situation for them. In London and the surrounding areas they are building estates and tower blocks with only a third of the properties having one parking spot each.
When you acquire one of the properties, you qualify to enter a bidding process to acquire a parking spot, some are going for considerable amounts of money, the developers make a killing while saying they are encouraging saving the planet, It is a great idea for the developers, they make loads of dosh for little outlay ( a little bit of tarmac) and who gives a fig about the peasants travelling about, more room on the roads for the elite ( didn't a labour minister suggest them having their own motor lane on the motorways into London in Blair's time) to get them into the city without hindrance.
Is that like in North Korea?
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I think the full idea was to change the name from the M1 to Prescott way and the M4 to Blair's Road.
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Makes you yearn for the days of great comedians like...Little and Large.
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There are 10 or maybe its 12 in Thorne on the B&M McDees Aldi site and of course they are always full of Cars that dont need them
I have only seen 2 cars ever charging there - but being convenient for the Shops they are always full so anything that could mean people dont need out and out charging spots (or we all need them) would help though it seems a long long way off
There’s three at the Barge Inn at Stanilands, one is a Tesla Supercharger
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Have you ever seen anyone hanging around with nothing to do, waitig for their car to be mobile again Filo?
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There are 10 or maybe its 12 in Thorne on the B&M McDees Aldi site and of course they are always full of Cars that dont need them
I have only seen 2 cars ever charging there - but being convenient for the Shops they are always full so anything that could mean people dont need out and out charging spots (or we all need them) would help though it seems a long long way off
There’s three at the Barge Inn at Stanilands, one is a Tesla Supercharger
Never noticed them tbh. Never seen a Tesla so there would be no waiting for that one !
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Most business duel fuel reps cars are handed back with the charging point mechanism unused and in their original covers when sold. They are being used for tax reasons.
The report said that a large percentage had never been used as an electric vehicle on the road.
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Makes you yearn for the days of great comedians like...Little and Large.
What ever happened to Ken Dodd aye.
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.... and then what happened to Kendoddsdadsdogsdead who used to post on here I wonder ? What a great name
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Jesus... I think I must be part of the problem. I get 18 mpg on a good day.
BobG
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Most business duel fuel reps cars are handed back with the charging point mechanism unused and in their original covers when sold. They are being used for tax reasons.
The report said that a large percentage had never been used as an electric vehicle on the road.
Must be some good buys on the used car scene, I'll ring the local conservatives. :)
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''Norway and the A-ha moment that made electric cars the answer
A country fuelled by hydropower has become the world’s electric vehicle leader''
A forward thinking country.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/19/norway-and-the-a-ha-moment-that-made-electric-cars-the-answer
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Interesting development for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/metal-organic-framework-hydrogen-fuel-cell/
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Hydrogen is the fuel of the future but expensive to produce, there are some in Australia that want to set up huge solar farms to provide cheap energy to make the hydrogen that can be exported to countries without a lot of natural resources.
http://theleadsouthaustralia.com.au/industries/renewables/work-begins-on-adelaide-green-hydrogen-plant/
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''Norway and the A-ha moment that made electric cars the answer
A country fuelled by hydropower has become the world’s electric vehicle leader''
A forward thinking country.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/19/norway-and-the-a-ha-moment-that-made-electric-cars-the-answer
Maybe you should go and live there.
That is a really interesting article but I particularly noted the paragraph that said it has been suggested that Norway’s encouragement of electric cars amounts to tax cuts for the rich or a cut price second car.
Surely you can’t be in favour of tax cuts for the rich.
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Glyn , your idea is more or less the British invention the air aluminium battery invented by an ex naval officer.
It is now being developed I think by a Chinese company, in a test run one cassette that is inter changeable had a range of over a thousand miles in a family car and could be changed in the same time as filling up a tank of petrol.
The problem is that the automobile industry has invested massively in alternative battery technology and are reluctant to change.
I read one report that a BMW car can charge its battery 80% at home overnight for about £3 for a range of about 180 miles, but to get the same charge on one of the rapid charges at a motorway stop was over £47 costing more a mile as against 14p a mile for the diesel same model they tested.
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Syd, Corbyn will have a low mileage company car for sale cheap.
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Syd, Corbyn will have a low mileage company car for sale cheap.
Wont steer right though.....
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Regardless of charging times or cables crossing pathways, 2 things to consider, the sheer cost of EVs is outrageous, compared to petrol/diesel cars when you consider one important factor. The battery degrade over time considering they are just laptop batteries to an extent. A quick search on autotrader shows the cheapest EV on sale that wasnt a geewhiz, was an2011 model Nissan leaf. 6 grand, so that means the first time drivers are struggling if they are teens on low wages. But the biggest problem and it headlines this on the advert! Range is only 50 miles between charge!!! Wtf!!! So 6k for a city car, and that's the cheapest. My brothers firm bought a 100k Tesla, only gets 200 miles from a charge now!
Price to buy, time of recharging, longevity of batteries, infrastructure to actually charge are currently a million miles away from being an alternative method of mass transport!! Anyone thinking otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land!
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Regardless of charging times or cables crossing pathways, 2 things to consider, the sheer cost of EVs is outrageous, compared to petrol/diesel cars when you consider one important factor. The battery degrade over time considering they are just laptop batteries to an extent. A quick search on autotrader shows the cheapest EV on sale that wasnt a geewhiz, was an2011 model Nissan leaf. 6 grand, so that means the first time drivers are struggling if they are teens on low wages. But the biggest problem and it headlines this on the advert! Range is only 50 miles between charge!!! Wtf!!! So 6k for a city car, and that's the cheapest. My brothers firm bought a 100k Tesla, only gets 200 miles from a charge now!
Price to buy, time of recharging, longevity of batteries, infrastructure to actually charge are currently a million miles away from being an alternative method of mass transport!! Anyone thinking otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land!
You are not wrong Adam.
That report that SR posted also backed up your point about people on low incomes.
It said that most people on low income are unable to afford an electric car.
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Plus, not to forget where is the extra power coming from to charge 27 million cars currently on the UK roads? Every night!! A Prius has about 9000 laptop batteries built into it, how many more power stations will be needed . If this is an environment saving issue, getting rid.of fossil fuel emissions etc, years ago, autocar did a report weighing up the green credentials of a new prius versus a 25 yr old merc taxi in Delhi, 300k miles on the clock... the winner, the merc, simply due to the fact that it only has to.be built once and will run and run, wheres as, the prius takes a huge amount of resource to build, and its got a limited lifespan due to battery life. They are built into the floor plan on many cars, so u can't just swop them out. You would have to build the prius 3 or 4 times over to match the life of the merc, and that would still be going..
Plus, at what stage do we run out of lithium? And have to come up.with an alternative alternative fuel?
They are years off main stream, but hydrogen fuel cells seem potentially more user friendly ?
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You have reminded me of a Merc taxi that once took us to the airport in Cyprus.
I was chatting to the driver and noticed that the speedo showed just short of 800,000km.
The car drove like a dream and the drive4 said it hardly ever had a problem.
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People on low incomes couldn't afford petrol cars either my parents never had a car.
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People on low incomes couldn't afford petrol cars either my parents never had a car.
I had a mini metro at 18 years of age, earning 80 quid a week. What was your point again in relation to the actual topic?
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It was a reply to those saying electric cars are expensive, they are but will fall in price when mass take up is achieved
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Latest state of play in the UK;
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2020/04/the-number-of-hybrid-and-electric-vehicles-on-uk-roads-reaches-all-time-high/
The purchase costs will reduce quickly as a function of scale, and the reduction in battery costs. All new tech comes in premium price first, then flattens and spreads.
Sales reduced as a result of Covid-19 across the sector.
The question is what happens after the economic crisis recedes.
Exponential rates of growth will kick in going forward.
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Exactly and it will help the government acheive better air quality and should lead to lower incidents of cancer and lung disease.
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''Norway and the A-ha moment that made electric cars the answer
A country fuelled by hydropower has become the world’s electric vehicle leader''
A forward thinking country.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/apr/19/norway-and-the-a-ha-moment-that-made-electric-cars-the-answer
Maybe you should go and live there.
That is a really interesting article but I particularly noted the paragraph that said it has been suggested that Norway’s encouragement of electric cars amounts to tax cuts for the rich or a cut price second car.
Surely you can’t be in favour of tax cuts for the rich.
It's a no-brainer when you are trying to develop a mass market for a new product.
Initially, the product is very expensive because it is still not getting benefits from mass production.
You want policies to encourage mass uptake.
So you do that by giving incentives like tax breaks to bring the price down and expand the market of people who will buy it.
Clearly, initially that benefits the rich. Because they are the only ones who can afford a (still, relatively) expensive product.
But what it also does is to bring the product into the price range of the not-quite-so-rich. So you expand the market. So companies invest in bigger production facilities. So manufacture is more efficient. So the price comes down....
Hound. Just because we are on the left, we're not against polcies that will benefit the ricj in the short term. As long as the benefit everybody, even more in the long term. Personally, what I despise are policies advocated by the Right over the past two decades whch entrench wealth with the wealthy. I said last night that the single most disgusting thing that the Cameron Govt did was to remove direct money subsidies to Child Trust Funds, while using that saving to give massive tax breaks to deposits to those funds. That effectively took Govt money from the kids of the poorest and gave it to the kids of the richest. With no mechanism wehreby the poorest would ever gain any of that back.
But that's what Tories do. They look after the better off. Always have done, always will do.
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People on low incomes couldn't afford petrol cars either my parents never had a car.
I had a mini metro at 18 years of age, earning 80 quid a week. What was your point again in relation to the actual topic?
If you were earning 80 quid a week at 18, I suspect you weren't in Sydney's parent's generation. Or if you were, you should have been driving a much better car.
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Not quite sure how the actions of folk potentially 2 generations ago have any relevance to youngsters today trying to save up to buy their first old banger for 500 notes with dad sorting the insurance out! In an EV world, that scenario doesn't exist.
Moving on from the kids, the EV family sized cars are decent 5 figure sums, the low cost 2nd hand market doesn't exist currently in the EV world?
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It was just a comparison of then to now and those complaining of the prices of batteries and the cars. Of course thety are expensive but as others have said that will change, my mate owned a taxi license in Cairns and the only time he made a real profit was when they had their first Toyota Prius hybrid. There will be maintenance savings due to the simplicity of the electric motor and when petrol prices go back up as it will people will save there. Higher initial purchase price reduced ongoing costs. We are not paying the full price of individual motor ownerhip especially diesels as the cost to peoples health needs to be factored in.
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I bought my first car in 1966 for £50 from my brother. I was 17 then and on about £7 a week paying £2:50 board.
I got my insurance from Gaurdian checks. It was £20 TPFT. I paid £1 a week for 21 weeks so that Gaurdian got their commission.
Happy days until I wrote it off just before my 18th birthday. We were coming back from football training in Rotherham and I hit the stone wall in Hooton Roberts after a blow out. To make it worse the Rovers lost 6-0 at Oxford that night as well.
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In reply to Adam's point, current EV are using Lithium Ion batteries, but there is research investment in different chemistries;
https://environmentjournal.online/articles/ev-battery-can-be-charged-in-seconds/
If new battery tech offers cheaper costs and greater range and charge, it will displace Lithium Ion very quickly.
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And this one Albie which I think we have discussed before
https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/21/ex-navy-engineer-built-car-battery-1500-mile-range-10956749/
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To some extent I can see transport by air and road becoming the transport of the rich again like it was in the 1920/30/40's certainly by air travel.
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Big battery news from Musk;
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-autos-tesla-batteries-exclusive/exclusive-teslas-secret-batteries-aim-to-rework-the-math-for-electric-cars-and-the-grid-idUKKBN22Q1WC
So farewell then, Internal Combustion Engine!
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There appears to be a number of people/companies on the 'verge' in this area, hopefully it will be goodbye to noisy, smelly, polluting vehicles and eventually planes Albie.
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We can hope so, it's the biggest potential industrial project the country and world requires. There's plenty of people (me included) who really want electric vehicles but can't justify the cost.
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Me too bfyp
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Stupidly I was going to have a Nissa Leaf on PCP recently. I wanted an all electric Niro (Kia) or Kona? (Hyundai) but both had 6 months lead time
Nissan Leaf range 168 miles and I thought good but not as good as the above 2
Nissan Leaf E+ range was 239 but cost 4k more which I thought was a lot extra to pay
Instead I stuck to another hybrid but in truth I should have just paid the extra and now will have to wait - disapponted with what is a brilliant car (though I should say I am not interested in cars - they are purely a to b for me) - and will see what happens in a year and see if viable to swap again
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Next big move, on the same day details of a new battery gigafactory in the news;
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2020/07/cobalt-free-battery-promises-higher-energy-density-cheaper-cost/
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Next big move, on the same day details of a new battery gigafactory in the news;
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2020/07/cobalt-free-battery-promises-higher-energy-density-cheaper-cost/
They've raised £10m so far - just the small matter of raising another £1.2 billion now!
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Next big move, on the same day details of a new battery gigafactory in the news;
https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2020/07/cobalt-free-battery-promises-higher-energy-density-cheaper-cost/
They've raised £10m so far - just the small matter of raising another £1.2 billion now!
I am not sure who needs to raise that sum, Muttley.
Usual thing is to sell the tech and all rights to an organisation that can fund the development.
Given the stampede to electrification, if the tech is solid it will be taken up by the big players.
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Britishvolt is aiming to build factories to manufacture batteries with 30 gigawatt hours (GWh) of capacity a year. The first leg of the plan will require Britishvolt to raise £1.2bn from investors, a significant sum for a company that has so far raised about £10m from a group of Scandinavian and Middle Eastern investors.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/17/battery-firm-chooses-welsh-site-for-britains-first-gigafactory
Britishvolt, which was only founded in December, will look to raise £300m to £400m in equity through a stock market listing in 2021, with a reverse takeover most likely. An initial public offering is also a possibility, added Mr Nadjari. The rest would come through debt and an unspecified amount of government grants.
https://britishvolt.com/news/battery-start-up-selects-welsh-site-for-uks-first-gigafactory/
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OK, you are talking about the factory.
I thought you meant the cobalt free battery!
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Britishvolt is aiming to build factories to manufacture batteries with 30 gigawatt hours (GWh) of capacity a year. The first leg of the plan will require Britishvolt to raise £1.2bn from investors, a significant sum for a company that has so far raised about £10m from a group of Scandinavian and Middle Eastern investors.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/17/battery-firm-chooses-welsh-site-for-britains-first-gigafactory
Britishvolt, which was only founded in December, will look to raise £300m to £400m in equity through a stock market listing in 2021, with a reverse takeover most likely. An initial public offering is also a possibility, added Mr Nadjari. The rest would come through debt and an unspecified amount of government grants.
https://britishvolt.com/news/battery-start-up-selects-welsh-site-for-uks-first-gigafactory/
The old RAF St Athan site....