Religious or Atheist?

[JamieM]

I thought after the intriguing Politics debate that we had a few weeks let's start an equally (and as potentially hairy) debate!

Is anyone religious, if so why? Who's an atheist, and why?

I'll start with my opinion - the concept of a God is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard.

[topnotch_Donny]

JamieM wrote:

I thought after the intriguing Politics debate that we had a few weeks let's start an equally (and as potentially hairy) debate!

Is anyone religious, if so why? Who's an atheist, and why?

I'll start with my opinion - the concept of a God is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard.

SOD is god, end of  

[gillinghamrover]

Not god squad or athiest, i beleive the correct term is agnostic (or fence sitter if you listen to the long haired fun police!).
Religion in my opinion in any form has caused too much fighting/death over thousands of years. A religious fanatic where I work refuses to acknowledge the existence of dinosaurs, his reason? Not mentioned in the bible so therefore  are made up. This is from the same person who drives around in a fossil fueled car!

[LuckyGirl]

Atheist.
Childhood experiences taught me that 'good' people are not always so good.

[jw2]

ATHEIST

[Pintolager]

For me, we are all just a part of Science that nobody understands yet!

[Nudga]

I'm an athiest, although i do believe that there was a bloke called Jesus who was very intelligent for his time and used this for his own personal gains. I can understand why people 1000-5000 years back believed in a god as they new nothing else, and they thought that all living things were created by a god as they obviously didn't have the scientific evidence or knowledge. I just don't understand how and why people believe in a god in the present day as we know so much about how and why things happened.

[The Red Baron]

I hope there is a God, not because I'm particularly religious, but because I'd love to see the look on the face of that self-satisfied prat Richard Dawkins. An atheist who practices his \"un-beliefs\" with the certainty of the worst kind of religious zealot.

I don't like organised religion, which is the main reason I haven't been to church- other than for weddings and funerals- since I was a teenager. I do think one's faith is a personal matter and the world would be a better place if it was kept that way.

[topnotch_Donny]

I’m sat on the fence.

I believe its all science then when I think of the beginning, it blows my mind, and I just can’t imagine how anything started from nothing. What is nothing? Not even a spec of dust or a molecule, no space (nothing) that gets me thinking that there must be a god.

It screws your head thinking about it. Everyone must have had that feeling when you try and work out how it began? I can understand how the planets were formed etc, but how did the first ever reaction come about, if theirs absolutely nothing? And is it possible to have nothing? Everything must start somewhere.

Right, time for my meds  

[JamieM]

Thinking about the Universe is a very scary thing to do and the fact that Earth is one of just 300 trillion stars in it is the worst part  

The fact that it would take 13 billion years to travel across it at the speed of light (300,000,000 m/s) is beyond me, it really is ridiculous.

I appluad people like Richard Dawkins and Ricky Gervais who are open with their views on religion. As they say, religion has been forced on every one of us for a long time now, isn't about time Atheists were allowed to return the favour and force their opinions?

[jucyberry]

I typed out my thoughts on God before tea, but I don't think he liked it cos I pressed the wrong button and deleted it...lol

I don't believe in god as a beardy man on a fluffy cloud, although I do believe there was a man called Jesus who had a group of chums who went round preaching his ideas. Cults after all are formed every day, just some last longer than others.

It is hard to believe that if there is such a thing as god that he would let little ones suffer so, in so many terrible ways.

And anyway, I don't believe there is such a thing as god, I prayed hard enough on friday, and I didnt get 80+ million..

To have a belief that something out there is going to look after you, and that one day you will be safe in his care is a wonderful thing, if you believe, but for every good religion brings, a thousand bad things are done in the name of it.

[Bald Rover]

Atheist-

reasons are because there are too many bad things on this planet for there to be a God!

we are what we are and we have a path but we can change that path ourselves

[topnotch_Donny]

Bald Rover wrote:

Atheist-

reasons are because there are too many bad things on this planet for there to be a God!

we are what we are and we have a path but we can change that path ourselves

People say to many bad things happen, but life is short and you will be rewarded in heaven  

God doesn't really change what happens in this life, apparently.

[Sandy Lane]

 

Well, I never really believed in God until my daughter was ill, and then the strangest thing happened.   She was in the hospital and people would tell me they would pray for her and give mass cards, etc.  I remember being totally disgusted and getting very angry and thinking to myself (as it seemed very clear to me at the time), they that are idiots for praying for my daughter, because if there was a god, he would save her through the doctor.  And for some reason I totally knew that was how it’s done.    I’ve never told anyone that, probably with good reason!!!  
 

Anyway, I just try to do the right thing, though it doesn’t always happen.

 

[DubaiRover]

Not religious in any way and living out here I find it staggering how religious they are,but they have had nothing else to do or believe in ever.
One thing about god is if we knew for sure there was one we would not need religion,therefore religion is bullshit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Strictly speaking, I'm agnostic, in that my position is that no-one can be certain whether or not some controlling intelligence exists outside the Universe.

\"God\" has always been used to mean \"What we can't explain by Science\". God has been pushed further and further back as Science has been spectacularly successful at explainging previously inexplicable phenomena. But there are very strong grounds for believing that Science will never be able to prove conclusively WHY the Universe exists, or WHERE it came from. Therefore, the possibility of the existence  of some form of over-arching controlling intelligence (which might be callsed \"God\") cannot be entirely dismissed.

The most fascinating cosmological theories suggest that our observable Universe is a random blip, produced by a quantum fluctuation. The argument goes that all the positive energy in the Universe is balanced by equivalent negative energy, so the net energy content of the Universe is precisely zero - hence our entire Universe COULD be created from nothing at all.  That still doesn't explain WHERE the nothing at all originally was! And it only pushes the question of \"what lies beyond\" one step further back. William of Occam's answer to this was to say that the simplest answer, the simplest way to cut through this infinite regression, was to assume that some form of God was responsible. Who knows?  

Some of the cutest Sci-Fi ideas suggest that our entire Universe is just a wonderfully complex computer simulation, and \"God\" is a geeky celestial computer programmer. Isaac Newton reckoned something similar - that God set the Universe in motion according to the laws of motion that Newton discovered, and then sat back to watch it happen.

On a practical level, I'm a born-again Aetheist, in that I despise organised religion, the detrimental controlling effect it has on people's lives and the way it stunts people's intellectual growth by requiring them to believe in supernatural claptrap.

As for Dawkins, he's fighting a very important battle. THE most important war going on at the moment is between the rational, scientific approach to the world, and the irrational, religious approach. It's a war that the relgious fundamentalists are winning in many places, from the Middle East to Texas. Dawkins knows how utterly vital this battle is to the future of Mankind. He deliberately fights fire with fire by stating his case in the most aggressive, OTT way. At the very least, it puts the issue in the public domain.

[LuckyGirl]

As always an intelligent and thought provoking post BST.

[RTID75]

Atheist. Always have been - I have always looked at science and facts, not the words written in a book of fiction. I have absolutely no time for religion of any kind.

Besides which, I've had far too much shit & suffering (health) in my life yet have done absolutely nothing to deserve it (and I've also seen similar suffering in children whilst in hospital) to be able to believe.

[JamieM]

I understand some of the principals behind being agnostic but if a ''God'' did create the universe in the first place how did such complex and intelligent behaviour occur when there was NOTHING. The only way that would be possible is if this mystical being came from a parallel universe.

BST, what are your thoughts on the multiverse theory?

[BillyStubbsTears]

JamieM wrote:

I understand some of the principals behind being agnostic but if a ''God'' did create the universe in the first place how did such complex and intelligent behaviour occur when there was NOTHING. The only way that would be possible is if this mystical being came from a parallel universe.

The way I see it, this argument for God removes God from the argument. This type of God is an unknowable concept. It becomes a purely hypothetical concept. This has as much rationale as any other argument I guess - it's all based on the presumption that there will be fundamental truths that we simply cannot know.

BST, what are your thoughts on the multiverse theory?

Same thing really I suppose. It MAY be true. The trouble is, I cannot see how we could ever find out. Science works on the principle that hypotheses can be tested against obervable evidence, and that if the hypotheses are found to conflict with the Universe that we see then they are abandonded or modified. Assuming that we have to remain within this Universe, and that no-one or nothing could come to us from outside it, there is no way in which the Scientific method can be used to test the idea. So \"belief\" in any scientific idea that purports to explain the Universe's origin is no more or less rational than \"belief\" in God. Unless we, one day, find a way of communicating with other Universes.

And then the whole problem just moves one stage further on in an infinite regress.

[BobG]

Interesting. And a good question to ask.

I gave up any belief in our normally recognised 'God' many years ago now. The Christian religion is so perverted from its original premises that what we see today is simply a vehicle for jobs for the boys. But that doesn't mean that 'christian' (small 'c') behaviour should be ignored. It's a valuable set of principles that we ought all to live up to. If we could do that, the world would go round much more smoothly.

But as the years have passed, I have become more and more taken by the concepts underlying Buddhism. A facsinating, and to me attractive, set of beliefs where there is no mystical 'God' figure at all - rather a belief in the rightness of behaving properly. In other words, 'god' is within us all: we simply have to find the means to let him express himself - and that expression fundamentally means caring for all other living entities. I'm crap at doing it - but then I'm employed by a voracious Western capitalist employer and I live in a voracious Western capitalist society. But one day I won't have either of those to contend with. And I shall be off to turn my interest into knowledge.

Cheers

BobG

PS I have been to a number of Buddhist meetings, get togethers, and I tell thee, it was time really well spent.

[bradford exile]

As a former \"lay preacher\" who fell out with God and religion many years ago,Because I could not believe that a caring god could be such a B*****d. When one looks at all the suffering, pain ,wars, killing, disease, famine, and all the crimes that have been commttted in the name of religion it becomes very hard to believe that there is any good in it.

More wars have been started,more crimes have been committed' more people have been slaughtered in the name of religionn than for any other reason.

I stick to my hypothesese that I am a Methodist. After all its always good to have one foot in the door....Just in case.

regards

Ray

[JamieM]

Very true, the reality is that we will never know of other universes, we'd have to travel 13 billion light years at the speed of light to find out (3 times the current lifetime of Earth!) not to mention developing some form of super-machine that can travel at the speed of light (as well as being able to live for 13 billion years).

The likelihood is that we will never be able to explore even a tiny fraction of our universe. The same has probably applied to countless other life forms dotted about somewhere who have not been able to evolve intelligently enough to explore.

The thought that there are other planets with lifeforms just the same as ours, with no idea of each other's existence, is just staggering.

What a wonderful (and confusing!) world we live in!

[Thinwhiteduke]

jucyberry wrote:

It is hard to believe that if there is such a thing as god that he would let little ones suffer so, in so many terrible ways.

JB, have you read Dan Browns 'Angels and Demons'?, if you havent here is a little excerpt similar to your post above:

    Lieutenant Chatrand: I don’t understand this omnipotent-benevolent thing.
    Camerlengo Carlo Ventresca: You are confused because the Bible describes God as an omnipotent and benevolent deity.
    Lieutenant Chatrand: Exactly.
    Camerlengo Carlo Ventresca: Omnipotent-benevolent simply means that God is all-powerful and well-meaning.
    Lieutenant Chatrand: I understand the concept. It’s just… there seems to be a contradiction.
    Camerlengo Carlo Ventresca: Yes. The contradiction is pain. Man’s starvation, war, sickness…
    Lieutenant Chatrand: Exactly! Terrible things happen in this world. Human tragedy seems like proof that God could not possibly be both all-powerful and well-meaning. If He loves us and has the power to change our situation, He would prevent our pain, wouldn’t he?
    Camerlengo Carlo Ventresca: Would He?
    Lieutenant Chatrand: Well… if God Loves us, and He can protect us, He would have to. It seems He is either omnipotent and uncaring, or benevolent and powerless to help.
    Camerlengo Carlo Ventresca: Do you have children?
    Lieutenant Chatrand: No, signore.
    Camerlengo Carlo Ventresca: Imagine you had an eight-year-old son… would you love him?
    Lieutenant Chatrand: Of course.
    Camerlengo Carlo Ventresca: Would you let him skateboard?
    Lieutenant Chatrand: Yeah, I guess. Sure I’d let him skateboard, but I’d tell him to be careful.
    Camerlengo Carlo Ventresca: So as this child’s father, you would give him some basic, good advice and then let him go off and make his own mistakes?
    Lieutenant Chatrand: I wouldn’t run behind him and mollycoddle him if that’s what you mean.
    Camerlengo Carlo Ventresca: But what if he fell and skinned his knee?
    Lieutenant Chatrand: He would learn to be more careful.
    Camerlengo Carlo Ventresca: So although you have the power to interfere and prevent your child’s pain, you would choose to show you love by letting him learn his own lessons?
    Lieutenant Chatrand: Of course. Pain is part of growing up. It’s how we learn.
    Camerlengo Carlo Ventresca: Exactly.

I love that book, and its predecessor 'The Da Vinci code'.

Having said that, Im an agnostic, not particularly leaning in either direction. Im starting to wonder if you become more religous the older you get? I despise Catholicism and all it represents - turning a blind eye to the rape of altar boys, its ignorant attitude towards contraception / abortion.

[BLIR]

Thinwhiteduke wrote:

JB, have you read Dan Browns 'Angels and Demons'

I thought this book was a fairly reasonable tale about the ongoing battle between religion and science. A little far fetched but entertaining enough until the final 2 or 3 chapters when it became ridiculous.

I have just read Timeline by Michael Crichton (he of Jurassic Park fame) which considers the multiverse theory and quantum mechanics. I thought this was an excellent idea, a great concept, but ultimately badly written and the story had little substance.

I honestly believe that science has a lot to offer,and quantum mechanics could well be at the forefront. Scientists constantly believe that they have discovered just about everything that there is to discover, but are regularly being proven wrong. It wasn't that long ago, in the grand scheme of things, that the best minds on the planet all agreed that the earth was flat and if you walked far enough you could fall off. I think anyone that discounts travelling at light speed, teleportation and potential time travel (or quantum shifting) is kidding themselves - just because it is beyond our comprehension does not mean that it is impossible!

Religion, for me, is an irrelevance. Never bothered with it and never will.

[Barmby Rover]

Scientists NEVER believe they have discovered everything, that is the wonderful nature of science, the understanding of one question throws up many more. It is a constant surce of wonder for those of us who have practiced it in any way.

That is why I can never understand the fascination with fake science and flannel. Why bother with that when there is a whole universe to discover?

[CusworthRovers]

I lost my faith when Harry Secombe took over Stars on Sunday.

I do feel there was some guidance from a mortal being who gave his teachings to 2 brothers/cousins that both heard/saw this teaching. One was called Muhammad and the other Jesus. Instead of both seeing it the same way it was meant to be taught to them, one saw it one way and interpreted it in the name of Christianity and the other saw it another way and interpreted it into Islam. One said these teaching were given to him by Allah and one said the teachings came via God (effectively it's the same word). One took his interpretations one way and the other went the other way, and the rest they say is history with a great deal of corruption, misery and death. Further to this, many new faiths have materialised from these 2 gospels of the original teaching.
When you look closely at the Muslim/Christianity faiths it is remarkable how similar the faiths are and the main players in the bible are also in the Koran.

I'm not religious, and know fully well what it's been guilty of over time and still is. However, many people do take comfort,security and warmth from their beliefs and I cannot knock them for that.

[i_ateallthepies]

Well I guess I'm somewhere between hard core atheist and agnostic.

'The power of God' was a necessary and convenient invention of man before organised societies developed, dreamed up by the smart few who recognised that there needed to be some way of controlling the uneducated masses.  What better way than to prey on people's insecurities by convincing them that to fail to follow the rules will make the Gods angry.  That still used term 'the fear of God' is throwback to that time.

As is more than adequately described in numerous other posts on here, there are far more compelling reasons to reject the concept of organised religion and I'm firmly in that camp, but when you marvel at the wonders of the universe and then at the other end of the scale, think of the complexities of even one small part of the human body, just think for example of the human eye, how can you fail to wonder how such a complex thing could happen without some intellegent force behind it?

I still despise organised religion though.

[MrFrost]

If something ie \"God\" did create the universe, then what created \"God\"?

[German Rover]

I do believe in a greater power that runs the show, and have done for a couple of years now as it dawned on me after walking away from a 95 mph car accident on the autobahn without even a scratch or a bruise on me. It also helped me get through my last tour of Afghanistan thinking that someone up there has an eye out for us.

interestingly I worked with americans in afghanistan who swore blind that all the afghan people need is to embrace jesus and they will find peace, which is a real load of tosh. these evangelical religious types are a great danger to themselves and the people they attempt to \"Save\".

The world would be a much better place if people were allowed to believe what they want to believe with no interference from preachers and evangelicals, most of whom seem to work as a matter of ego so they can say i saved this man from evil. And as a final point Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same god just under different names and in slightly different ways.