Squad/wages if football returns behind closed doors

[redarmy82]

I haven't been paying much attention to the football side of things, as frankly it's the last thing on my mind at the minute.

However, am I right in thinking our players have had their wages deferred until supporters are allowed to attend matches?

Not sure if it has been discussed elsewhere, however if football returns behind closed doors for a period, and our squad size being what it is, how could we possibly bring players in to compete, if, in effect, they will not be paid? Am I missing something.

I can't think of many players signing, if they won't be paid until a certain, and at the moment, unclear date.

It's one thing having existing players agree to defer wages, but can't see new signings being up for it.

[rich1471]

They only deferred a % of their wages not them all as how would they live if fans are not aloud into grounds for the next 8 months

[graingrover]

Under what conditions are fans to be allowed back into stadia is the real issue to be addressed .I live abroad and we are three weeks further down the curve than U.K. and  the issues are still masks and social distancing .My thoughts are that  clubs will have to have strict  organisation within the stadium and fans will all have to be masked if football is to be played in front of çrowds this autumn .We might be able to cater for 7000 at Keepmoat but it would take 90 minutes to gain entry and stewards would have to direct fans to seats separated by tapes and probably three Seats between each individual .It would be like a military operation .Possible ...SURE but it would need total co operation from fans which is a BIG ASK judging  from recent care free mass demonstrations in cities .

[drfchound]

It would be a big ask given the way some of the fans in the south stand disobey the stewards when standing in the aisles etc.

Safe standing would go out of the window.

[silent majority]

It would be a big ask given the way some of the fans in the south stand disobey the stewards when standing in the aisles etc.

Safe standing would go out of the window.

Why would it?

[selby]

  One reason SM, most clubs will not be able to afford the alterations that safe standing areas would entail.
   Another would be the ability to move around the stadiums which the government will be looking to restrict at the moment.

[Chris Black come back]

Be interesting to know the split for Rovers but I would hazard a guess that our income is probably 30pc owner subsidy, 30pc gate, 30pc TV/Solidarity and 10pc commercial?

If even vaguely correct then you could see impact from closed doors.

[silent majority]

  One reason SM, most clubs will not be able to afford the alterations that safe standing areas would entail.
   Another would be the ability to move around the stadiums which the government will be looking to restrict at the moment.

That doesn't make any sense. None of those reasons are the reason why hound said what he did.

Obviously the financial side is down to each individual club, but movement around the stadium is completely irrelevant whether sat or stood it makes no difference.

[NickDRFC]

Be interesting to know the split for Rovers but I would hazard a guess that our income is probably 30pc owner subsidy, 30pc gate, 30pc TV/Solidarity and 10pc commercial?

If even vaguely correct then you could see impact from closed doors.

Don’t forget that we get revenue from Club Doncaster - I imagine this counts as commercial income. I reckon it’s a relatively even split between match day, commercial and solidarity/tv. The funds put in by owners aren’t technically income but it will vary year to year compared to our revenue streams depending on how much they need to put in to cover the shortfall (I would imagine!)

[Chris Black come back]

Yes, that is a fair point. ‘Income’ in generic term, rather than accounting term. I should have used ‘budget’.

Owners have been reasonably stable in last couple of years at or around £2m I think? The commercial bucket seems to be growing due to Keepmoat exploitation and Club Doncaster synergies and efficiencies. 

[NickDRFC]

Yes, that is a fair point. ‘Income’ in generic term, rather than accounting term. I should have used ‘budget’.

Owners have been reasonably stable in last couple of years at or around £2m I think? The commercial bucket seems to be growing due to Keepmoat exploitation and Club Doncaster synergies and efficiencies. 

Just had a look at the accounts and last season it was £1.3m (presumably a “cheap” year because of the cup run), £2.8m the year before and £2m before that. So can vary a fair bit year on year.

Interestingly, on a bit of a tangent, there’s a note in last year’s accounts that we made £1.05m on the disposal of two player registrations after the balance sheet date. Presumably this is Marquis & Crawford, given Crawford was for nothing that’s a bit less than I thought we’d got for Marquis (apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere but it’s the first time I’ve seen a figure)

[drfchound]

  One reason SM, most clubs will not be able to afford the alterations that safe standing areas would entail.
   Another would be the ability to move around the stadiums which the government will be looking to restrict at the moment.

That doesn't make any sense. None of those reasons are the reason why hound said what he did.

Obviously the financial side is down to each individual club, but movement around the stadium is completely irrelevant whether sat or stood it makes no difference.

SM....how do you know what I meant.
As selby said, people would be able to move around in safe standing areas.
If the fans are seated and behave themselves by not moving to another seat it is much safer than people standing.
They might start out at two metres apart but inevitably would move closer together.

[silent majority]

  One reason SM, most clubs will not be able to afford the alterations that safe standing areas would entail.
   Another would be the ability to move around the stadiums which the government will be looking to restrict at the moment.

That doesn't make any sense. None of those reasons are the reason why hound said what he did.

Obviously the financial side is down to each individual club, but movement around the stadium is completely irrelevant whether sat or stood it makes no difference.

SM....how do you know what I meant.
As selby said, people would be able to move around in safe standing areas.
If the fans are seated and behave themselves by not moving to another seat it is much safer than people standing.
They might start out at two metres apart but inevitably would move closer together.

Well I did ask you what you meant, but you didn't respond.

Are you now saying that what you meant is that safe standing would be out of the window because standing means that people move around and would inevitably misbehave and move closer together?

If so can you point me in the direction of something, anything, that shows that people standing, as opposed to sitting, means a) people misbehave, and b) will move closer together?

After being involved in the SS campaign for the last 20 years I've yet to see anything that could substantiate your point.

[selby]

  SM. the whole point of people wanting standing areas is so groups can get together to bounce up and down turn their backs on the field of play  and do things at a football game in unison, and those people will be in close proximity to each other.
  This pandemic has to have put the idea of introducing it into our game back years with the government.
  The clubs are for it to increase attendances, and while it may be cheaper to stand on the continent I would not put it past our greedy so and so's to make standing dearer. The mere fact that most grounds record attendances were when the grounds were mostly standing areas proves that more people standing can be in the same seated area,

[IDM]

Isn’t the whole point of modern safe standing mainly to be able to stand, as opposed to increasing attendance numbers.?

[drfchound]

  One reason SM, most clubs will not be able to afford the alterations that safe standing areas would entail.
   Another would be the ability to move around the stadiums which the government will be looking to restrict at the moment.

That doesn't make any sense. None of those reasons are the reason why hound said what he did.

Obviously the financial side is down to each individual club, but movement around the stadium is completely irrelevant whether sat or stood it makes no difference.

SM....how do you know what I meant.
As selby said, people would be able to move around in safe standing areas.
If the fans are seated and behave themselves by not moving to another seat it is much safer than people standing.
They might start out at two metres apart but inevitably would move closer together.

Well I did ask you what you meant, but you didn't respond.

Are you now saying that what you meant is that safe standing would be out of the window because standing means that people move around and would inevitably misbehave and move closer together?

If so can you point me in the direction of something, anything, that shows that people standing, as opposed to sitting, means a) people misbehave, and b) will move closer together?

After being involved in the SS campaign for the last 20 years I've yet to see anything that could substantiate your point.

I didn’t respond because I had gone out for the afternoon.
.....and no, I am not saying that people would misbehave if safe standing was introduced.
If you read correctly what I wrote, I said that if fans were seated and they didn’t misbehave by moving to another seat.
That is not saying that they would misbehave in a safe standing situation.
I am saying though that if people were asked to stand two metres apart that they would move closer together.
I don’t think that anyone would disagree with that.
In the south stand I regularly see where three lads stand in front of two seats or three in front of four.

[ravenrover]

I see lots of people moving round in west stand usually people with tickets near the front who then move around to try and find seats further back the timrs I've been ssked is anyone sitting in those seats or someone sat in my seat as I sit on the end of a row with a usually empty seat next to me.

[silent majority]

  One reason SM, most clubs will not be able to afford the alterations that safe standing areas would entail.
   Another would be the ability to move around the stadiums which the government will be looking to restrict at the moment.

That doesn't make any sense. None of those reasons are the reason why hound said what he did.

Obviously the financial side is down to each individual club, but movement around the stadium is completely irrelevant whether sat or stood it makes no difference.

SM....how do you know what I meant.
As selby said, people would be able to move around in safe standing areas.
If the fans are seated and behave themselves by not moving to another seat it is much safer than people standing.
They might start out at two metres apart but inevitably would move closer together.

Well I did ask you what you meant, but you didn't respond.

Are you now saying that what you meant is that safe standing would be out of the window because standing means that people move around and would inevitably misbehave and move closer together?

If so can you point me in the direction of something, anything, that shows that people standing, as opposed to sitting, means a) people misbehave, and b) will move closer together?

After being involved in the SS campaign for the last 20 years I've yet to see anything that could substantiate your point.

I didn’t respond because I had gone out for the afternoon.
.....and no, I am not saying that people would misbehave if safe standing was introduced.
If you read correctly what I wrote, I said that if fans were seated and they didn’t misbehave by moving to another seat.
That is not saying that they would misbehave in a safe standing situation.
I am saying though that if people were asked to stand two metres apart that they would move closer together.
I don’t think that anyone would disagree with that.
In the south stand I regularly see where three lads stand in front of two seats or three in front of four.

Your implication is that supporters standing would not behave as well as people who were sat down, so no, I have read what you wrote.

However to suggest that people who stand would move closer together is based on nothing more than a hunch. There's no logic to that.

So, do you know what the pinch points are for supporters in a stadium with regard to safety? Do you know when supporters come together more often than any other time? Standing in itself isn't inherently unsafe, not at all. There's no figures to justify one or the other. The most dangerous time for supporters in a stadium is a) when a goal is scored. People jumping from a seated position to celebrate that goal causes more injuries than any other action, and b) when leaving a stadium.

Strangely enough those two instances of supporters being at a high risk of injury would also relate to an increased risk during the corona virus crisis. Those are the issues clubs will have to deal with, not standing.

And finally, the recent government observed trials on Safe Standing in UK stadiums is about to conclude. The recommendation from DCMS is that Safe standing is safer!! Who would have thought that? You'll see more SS installations, not less.

[silent majority]

  SM. the whole point of people wanting standing areas is so groups can get together to bounce up and down turn their backs on the field of play  and do things at a football game in unison, and those people will be in close proximity to each other.
  This pandemic has to have put the idea of introducing it into our game back years with the government.
  The clubs are for it to increase attendances, and while it may be cheaper to stand on the continent I would not put it past our greedy so and so's to make standing dearer. The mere fact that most grounds record attendances were when the grounds were mostly standing areas proves that more people standing can be in the same seated area,

I think you're out of touch with what most supporters want from standing. What most want is a choice, either standing or sitting it doesn't matter. People who want to sit want to sit in an area where everybody else sits too, and people who want to stand likewise, its about choice, nothing more.

All SS installations in the UK so far (with one slight exception) have gone for a 1:1 ratio when moving from seats to standing. Its not about increasing attendance, its giving the supporters what they want and increasing levels of safety at the same time.

[drfchound]

  One reason SM, most clubs will not be able to afford the alterations that safe standing areas would entail.
   Another would be the ability to move around the stadiums which the government will be looking to restrict at the moment.

That doesn't make any sense. None of those reasons are the reason why hound said what he did.

Obviously the financial side is down to each individual club, but movement around the stadium is completely irrelevant whether sat or stood it makes no difference.

SM....how do you know what I meant.
As selby said, people would be able to move around in safe standing areas.
If the fans are seated and behave themselves by not moving to another seat it is much safer than people standing.
They might start out at two metres apart but inevitably would move closer together.

Well I did ask you what you meant, but you didn't respond.

Are you now saying that what you meant is that safe standing would be out of the window because standing means that people move around and would inevitably misbehave and move closer together?

If so can you point me in the direction of something, anything, that shows that people standing, as opposed to sitting, means a) people misbehave, and b) will move closer together?

After being involved in the SS campaign for the last 20 years I've yet to see anything that could substantiate your point.

I didn’t respond because I had gone out for the afternoon.
.....and no, I am not saying that people would misbehave if safe standing was introduced.
If you read correctly what I wrote, I said that if fans were seated and they didn’t misbehave by moving to another seat.
That is not saying that they would misbehave in a safe standing situation.
I am saying though that if people were asked to stand two metres apart that they would move closer together.
I don’t think that anyone would disagree with that.
In the south stand I regularly see where three lads stand in front of two seats or three in front of four.

Your implication is that supporters standing would not behave as well as people who were sat down, so no, I have read what you wrote.

However to suggest that people who stand would move closer together is based on nothing more than a hunch. There's no logic to that.

So, do you know what the pinch points are for supporters in a stadium with regard to safety? Do you know when supporters come together more often than any other time? Standing in itself isn't inherently unsafe, not at all. There's no figures to justify one or the other. The most dangerous time for supporters in a stadium is a) when a goal is scored. People jumping from a seated position to celebrate that goal causes more injuries than any other action, and b) when leaving a stadium.

Strangely enough those two instances of supporters being at a high risk of injury would also relate to an increased risk during the corona virus crisis. Those are the issues clubs will have to deal with, not standing.

And finally, the recent government observed trials on Safe Standing in UK stadiums is about to conclude. The recommendation from DCMS is that Safe standing is safer!! Who would have thought that? You'll see more SS installations, not less.

Martin, absolutely no, I am not saying that people standing would not behave as well as people sitting down.
Quite the opposite.
I am saying that in a situation where people were asked to sit two metres apart would need to behave and not move around or closer together.
Also, my suggestion was  that people standing and supposed to stay two metres apart would inevitably move closer together.
It may be a hunch but I think it is a very likely situation.
You yourself don’t know that they wouldn’t move closer together.
I also haven’t said anything to indicate that safe standing in itself isn’t safe under normal circumstances.
I have no reason to believe anything to the contrary.
You are taking our discussion into an argument about whether safe standing is, well, safe,  which isn’t what I was talking about.
Under normal (pre Covid times) I have no doubt that if it was implemented it would be done properly but under the two metre rules it probably wouldn’t.
Not from a point of view of injuries but from a transmission of the virus point of view.

[silent majority]

Hound, OK lets accept that the behaviour thing isn't an issue.

But by the same token we can't assume that those people sat 2 metres apart or even stood 2 metres apart would behave differently. There's nothing to suggest that we would have to legislate for that. I can't, as you say, know they wouldn't do that, but neither can you. As a person who stands at the Keepmoat for every game I can assure I don't move around, I stand in front of my seat, always have, always will.

Yes, I did take our discussion into one of whether SS is safe or not. But your initial post said that 'Safe Standing' would go out of the window. I asked why. What you should have said is that 'standing would go out of the window'. Safe Standing is a whole different ball game to one where we're just discussing whether supporters could stand at a game or not. The Safe Standing juggernaut and campaign is reaching its conclusion, it won't be going out of a window anytime soon.

[silent majority]

Apart from the obvious decision that came out of the EFL meet last Tuesday what they did decide was the next meeting would be about discussing a start to next season. If that date can be agreed it helps all clubs take those next steps.

Clubs are looking at the end of September, but at the moment its a desire rather than a plan. I'm afraid its going to be case of watch this space.

[mushRTID]

Maybe no away fans might be part of the first steps.

1) no thousands of people travelling into different towns and cities and travelling back

2) using the north stand, more space for home fans to attend and spread out.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Come, August/September, I very much doubt the 2m rule will be officialy in place anyway.

They're already talking about reducing it to a 1m rule, which is a nonsense as if sneezes and coughs will be less powerful!? But that's by the by.

By then the new normal we have evolved even more and it will be a case of people individually making their own risk assessments whether they are comfortable in attending mass events again and sitting/standing next to Johnny stranger. It will take time for folk to regain confidence.

Once pubs/restaurants open, we will get to know whether the virus has faded away plus, as treatment of the virus has improved, and potentially with more effective medication and or a vaccine, the risks of the virus are much reduced.

However, as S_M says, it's not helping with not being able to plan ahead for that eventuality. I suspect there may be a late rally for tickets as the new season beckons.

[IDM]

It’s the entry/exit etc onto the ground that would be the pinch points into stadia which would be more of a problem than sitting 1m apart.?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

It’s the entry/exit etc onto the ground that would be the pinch points into stadia which would be more of a problem than sitting 1m apart.?

If you assume nothing is put in place to organise a structured exit plan. As we have seen away supporters held back, there's no reason we couldn't organise a block by block system in the different stands for example.

[NewDonny]

Come, August/September, I very much doubt the 2m rule will be officialy in place anyway.

They're already talking about reducing it to a 1m rule, which is a nonsense as if sneezes and coughs will be less powerful!? But that's by the by.

By then the new normal we have evolved even more and it will be a case of people individually making their own risk assessments whether they are comfortable in attending mass events again and sitting/standing next to Johnny stranger. It will take time for folk to regain confidence.

Once pubs/restaurants open, we will get to know whether the virus has faded away plus, as treatment of the virus has improved, and potentially with more effective medication and or a vaccine, the risks of the virus are much reduced.

However, as S_M says, it's not helping with not being able to plan ahead for that eventuality. I suspect there may be a late rally for tickets as the new season beckons.

I hear that its likely to be reduced as at next week in fact.

[ravenrover]

Maybe no away fans might be part of the first steps.

1) no thousands of people travelling into different towns and cities and travelling back

2) using the north stand, more space for home fans to attend and spread out.

Regarding point 1 Man Utd would be playing to an empty stadium for home games 😆