Universities

[BillyStubbsTears]

Of course it was only a matter of time till this subject came up in the campaign. Next front in the Culture War.

https://x.com/RishiSunak/status/1795829805193310239

As ever with the Tories, this isn't going to be THEIR kids they are talking about. It's kids of people further down the scale that they'll be denying higher education to.

And here's another thing. Every word from the Tories on this subject is about accounting and economics. They are shouting from the rooftops that some university courses don't result in graduates earning more and therefore should be closed.

Do you know which is one of the worst degree subjects for increasing someone's future earning potential?

English.

Take them at their word and this lot of philistine spivs would close down degree courses in English.

[Iberian Red]

He has a point tho.
Coming from an exceedingly rich background and then marrying into an obscenely rich family is proof.
He's just talking about his personal background.

[danumdon]

Education is very important, as it majors in every facet of your life, for the rest of your life.

I'm not going to comment on the policy, but I will say, are we educating ALL our youth correctly?

I'd wager that even you will conceive that we have some people going into higher education, racking up debts of over 45K, and leaving after 3–4 years with little to show bar a good time as a crazy situation.

It's a fact of life that not everyone is suited to a university education, they are just not academically inclined to be. Is it right that these individuals are steered into this type of further education?

Would we benefit more if we filtered school leavers to a better standard and suggested apprenticeships and work placements for the more hands-on types? Would we be doing them a disservice if we did this?

Remember also that some kids mature much later than others, and at 18 they are still very young to appreciate or benefit in this way. Would it not be better to let them discover university at a slightly later stage in their lives, and if so, go for it then?

I would love to see more apprenticeships and work placements provided by more employers, it could give this type of individual the best start in life and allow them, as they mature, to look into further education or university.

[Sprotyrover]

Education is very important, as it majors in every facet of your life, for the rest of your life.

I'm not going to comment on the policy, but I will say, are we educating ALL our youth correctly?

I'd wager that even you will conceive that we have some people going into higher education, racking up debts of over 45K, and leaving after 3–4 years with little to show bar a good time as a crazy situation.

It's a fact of life that not everyone is suited to a university education, they are just not academically inclined to be. Is it right that these individuals are steered into this type of further education?

Would we benefit more if we filtered school leavers to a better standard and suggested apprenticeships and work placements for the more hands-on types? Would we be doing them a disservice if we did this?

Remember also that some kids mature much later than others, and at 18 they are still very young to appreciate or benefit in this way. Would it not be better to let them discover university at a slightly later stage in their lives, and if so, go for it then?

I would love to see more apprenticeships and work placements provided by more employers, it could give this type of individual the best start in life and allow them, as they mature, to look into further education or university.

That’s an excellent post and I wholeheartedly agree!

[River Don]

Conversely the drop out rate for apprenticeships is currently nearly 50%. At that the Conservative alternative doesn't exactly look great value for money either

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It's an interesting thing. In my field it's quite interesting. I've 3 entry level roles in my team all three are on apprenticeships.  All 3 actually already have degrees.

It's an interesting subject though as there's differing routes in to finance that I work in.  But, very few of the more senior roles won't and don't have degrees despite the apprentice route.

There's a lot of waste at university I still think it's a fairly poor way to learn in many ways. But it does teach you to be self sufficient, to write academically in a way other courses do not.  Is that enough to justify the money? Perhaps not but the tick in a box it gets you when starting your career is definitely helpful.

[River Don]

There's quite a breadth to university courses.

I started out in a polytechnic as that was the old route into design and a lot of more practical courses. Within a year we had been upgraded to university status. This was largely because the old polys were having such great success in placing students into careers. Often with more success than the unis.

The key thing though is the higher education route develops analytical skills and on. It' develops an individual more than An apprenticeship which simply trains you to do a job.

[River Don]

Funnily enough, the lad who refitted our bathroom recently had an English degree under his belt.

I asked him how he'd ended up running a plumbing business. It came down to wanting to be his own boss. They did a grand job, he quite enjoyed working for me because I was so keen on getting design details right. And unlike the guys working for him, could chat a bit about literature over a cup of tea.

So was his English degree a waste of money? I'm not sure it was because ultimately he's running a successful business employing several guys.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD

The key thing though is the higher education route develops analytical skills and on. It' develops an individual more than An apprenticeship which simply trains you to do a job.

This, 100%. That's what a university degree does. It expands your intellectual capability and extends your ability to think. It does so in a way that is structured and often so effective that many of those who experience it think it has been just a natural process that they could have acquired anyway.

Even courses that don't equip graduates with hard marketable skills develop in them the ability to consider arguments, marshall facts, and form rational conclusions. We'll need far more people with those abilities as this century rolls on.

[Bristol Red Rover]

And that development of critical analysis capability is not required in the low life proles by our rulers. Give them training, not education. Cogs in the machine.

[River Don]

And that development of critical analysis capability is not required in the low life proles by our rulers. Give them training, not education. Cogs in the machine.

That very well might be in Conservative thoughts here. There is a contradiction in that Hunt was very proud of the UK flexible workforce. A more highly educated workforce is going to be more flexible.

Mind you Hunt compared the UK to France... Who despite not having such a highly flexible workforce do enjoy higher salaries and higher living standards than the UK...

[River Don]

Thinking on, when you look at the most highly educated nations South Korea, Canada, Japan they rank as some of the most economically successful nations, that Conservatives would like to emulate.

From that point of view the Tory pullback on University education doesn't make a lot of sense.

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is nothing more than yet another Culture War front.

They know this plays well to older voters. There's a poll by YG tonight saying over 65s support this policy by 82-5.

That's why they are doing it. They know they have zero chance of implementing it, but it's yet another attempt to feed ignorant prejudice and try to stop old voters going to Reform.

That's all you'll get from the Tories for the rest of this campaign. They aren't fighting to win votes off Labour or to tempt young voters, or even to propose anything remotely sensible for the good of the country. They are just desperately trying to fight off Farage.

f**king reprehensible from a party that, whether you agreed with it or not, used to have a philosophy about what sort of policies were best for the country.

[Filo]

There's quite a breadth to university courses.

I started out in a polytechnic as that was the old route into design and a lot of more practical courses. Within a year we had been upgraded to university status. This was largely because the old polys were having such great success in placing students into careers. Often with more success than the unis.

The key thing though is the higher education route develops analytical skills and on. It' develops an individual more than An apprenticeship which simply trains you to do a job.

I disagree, apprenticeships were the reason why we were a great manufacturing nation, a 16 year old learning the skills from an old timer to pass on to future generations, it’s all been lost now. I’m not having a go at uni grads, but how many of those have the skills or know how to fabricate a cone from sheet metal for example, which needs a certain degree of mathematical skills, it’s horses for courses, none are better than the other, but the powers that be seem to think that people with academical skills are a level above people with manual skills

[DRFC_AjA]

Of course it was only a matter of time till this subject came up in the campaign. Next front in the Culture War.

https://x.com/RishiSunak/status/1795829805193310239

As ever with the Tories, this isn't going to be THEIR kids they are talking about. It's kids of people further down the scale that they'll be denying higher education to.

And here's another thing. Every word from the Tories on this subject is about accounting and economics. They are shouting from the rooftops that some university courses don't result in graduates earning more and therefore should be closed.

Do you know which is one of the worst degree subjects for increasing someone's future earning potential?

English.

Take them at their word and this lot of philistine spivs would close down degree courses in English.

I know right. Can we just leave the kids alone to do their gender studies and end up in Costa earning minimum wage please. For goodness sake just let the French Germans and Italians build our trains and infrastructure and leave our kids be

[BillyStubbsTears]

Of course it was only a matter of time till this subject came up in the campaign. Next front in the Culture War.

https://x.com/RishiSunak/status/1795829805193310239

As ever with the Tories, this isn't going to be THEIR kids they are talking about. It's kids of people further down the scale that they'll be denying higher education to.

And here's another thing. Every word from the Tories on this subject is about accounting and economics. They are shouting from the rooftops that some university courses don't result in graduates earning more and therefore should be closed.

Do you know which is one of the worst degree subjects for increasing someone's future earning potential?

English.

Take them at their word and this lot of philistine spivs would close down degree courses in English.

I know right. Can we just leave the kids alone to do their gender studies and end up in Costa earning minimum wage please. For goodness sake just let the French Germans and Italians build our trains and infrastructure and leave our kids be

Like I said, we need more people who can marshall facts, analyse them and come up with rational conclusions.

[BillyStubbsTears]

There's quite a breadth to university courses.

I started out in a polytechnic as that was the old route into design and a lot of more practical courses. Within a year we had been upgraded to university status. This was largely because the old polys were having such great success in placing students into careers. Often with more success than the unis.

The key thing though is the higher education route develops analytical skills and on. It' develops an individual more than An apprenticeship which simply trains you to do a job.

I disagree, apprenticeships were the reason why we were a great manufacturing nation, a 16 year old learning the skills from an old timer to pass on to future generations, it’s all been lost now. I’m not having a go at uni grads, but how many of those have the skills or know how to fabricate a cone from sheet metal for example, which needs a certain degree of mathematical skills, it’s horses for courses, none are better than the other, but the powers that be seem to think that people with academical skills are a level above people with manual skills

I agree with this Filo. My company has put two young lads through apprenticeships and they have both benefitted from the process greatly and are excellent workers.

I just don't see this as an either/or thing. We need BOTH graduates and apprentices.

What the Tories are doing here is playing one against the other to match the prejudices of a small group of voters they are trying to retain.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

There's quite a breadth to university courses.

I started out in a polytechnic as that was the old route into design and a lot of more practical courses. Within a year we had been upgraded to university status. This was largely because the old polys were having such great success in placing students into careers. Often with more success than the unis.

The key thing though is the higher education route develops analytical skills and on. It' develops an individual more than An apprenticeship which simply trains you to do a job.

I disagree, apprenticeships were the reason why we were a great manufacturing nation, a 16 year old learning the skills from an old timer to pass on to future generations, it’s all been lost now. I’m not having a go at uni grads, but how many of those have the skills or know how to fabricate a cone from sheet metal for example, which needs a certain degree of mathematical skills, it’s horses for courses, none are better than the other, but the powers that be seem to think that people with academical skills are a level above people with manual skills

More than you'd think actually, there's a lot practical based degrees and needs to be more.

There's quite a breadth to university courses.

I started out in a polytechnic as that was the old route into design and a lot of more practical courses. Within a year we had been upgraded to university status. This was largely because the old polys were having such great success in placing students into careers. Often with more success than the unis.

The key thing though is the higher education route develops analytical skills and on. It' develops an individual more than An apprenticeship which simply trains you to do a job.

I disagree, apprenticeships were the reason why we were a great manufacturing nation, a 16 year old learning the skills from an old timer to pass on to future generations, it’s all been lost now. I’m not having a go at uni grads, but how many of those have the skills or know how to fabricate a cone from sheet metal for example, which needs a certain degree of mathematical skills, it’s horses for courses, none are better than the other, but the powers that be seem to think that people with academical skills are a level above people with manual skills

I agree with this Filo. My company has put two young lads through apprenticeships and they have both benefitted from the process greatly and are excellent workers.

I just don't see this as an either/or thing. We need BOTH graduates and apprentices.

What the Tories are doing here is playing one against the other to match the prejudices of a small group of voters they are trying to retain.

I agree with this, but isn't it fair to say the number of grads is much higher than apprentices?  Sunak's point on that seems fair in quite a few ways a degree should not equate to success, but it still does.

Perhaps he could though also tweet "you don't need rich family to succeed in life".  There's a bigger injustice there and we see it throughout politics aswell.