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Quote from: IDM on December 11, 2018, 09:05:50 pmIs there anyone, on any side of the political coin, who we can trust to be PM at the moment.?Starmer?
Is there anyone, on any side of the political coin, who we can trust to be PM at the moment.?
Starmer is the only politician in the country who is coming out of this shit storm with his reputation enhanced. He's been strategic, calm, prepared to face down his own leader, consistent and in control of the facts.
Aye BSOn which note...Still waiting for you to tell us what May should be renegotiating. Take your time.
Reassurances?You'd go into a negotiation asking for reassurances?That's just made my day. I thought you we all for going in balls out and telling Europe what they can do with their deal?Sounds like you're now wanting Merkel et al to give us pinky promises that they'll not be beastly to us in future. Reassurances? Really?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on December 11, 2018, 11:25:07 pmReassurances?You'd go into a negotiation asking for reassurances?That's just made my day. I thought you we all for going in balls out and telling Europe what they can do with their deal?Sounds like you're now wanting Merkel et al to give us pinky promises that they'll not be beastly to us in future. Reassurances? Really?I'd leave now, this moment, and would fall back on WTO terms, or withhold the tens of billions we're gonna pay them, that they are desperate for until they concede certain issues. However May, who were talking about here is doing something different. Try and keep up, please.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on December 11, 2018, 10:43:49 pmStarmer is the only politician in the country who is coming out of this shit storm with his reputation enhanced. He's been strategic, calm, prepared to face down his own leader, consistent and in control of the facts. I agree he has been concise but I actually after he's in the easy position. Labour's strategy of "we'd just negotiate better" is fantasy though. They were touching on this on the radio this morning, discussing why Corbyn is not pushing for no confidence in government and mentioning how behind it all they'd be in a very similar position in that there are multiple demands within his party. As BST has said, who'd want to be PM right now?
Quote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on December 12, 2018, 10:05:11 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on December 11, 2018, 10:43:49 pmStarmer is the only politician in the country who is coming out of this shit storm with his reputation enhanced. He's been strategic, calm, prepared to face down his own leader, consistent and in control of the facts. I agree he has been concise but I actually after he's in the easy position. Labour's strategy of "we'd just negotiate better" is fantasy though. They were touching on this on the radio this morning, discussing why Corbyn is not pushing for no confidence in government and mentioning how behind it all they'd be in a very similar position in that there are multiple demands within his party. As BST has said, who'd want to be PM right now?BFYPWith respect, you're not seeing the big picture here.There are effectively two ways we can leave the EU.We can remove ourselves from ALL the EU's systems and agreements. That's what Farage, Rees-Mogg and the ERG want.Or we can stay inside some of the systems and agreements. That is where Starmer has been positioning Labour admittedly, having to pull Corbyn kicking and screaming into the real world.Either one of those is a relatively easy thing to negotiate with the EU. The former, because we're effectively saying to them "we don't want or need you". The latter because we're effectively saying, "we want to retain a close relationship, based on many of the processes that are already working."Starmer has spent the past two years talking to EU leaders and negotiators and laying the path for that sort of Brexit, if Labour were in a position to implement it. It has consequences. It means that we would remain bound by many of the rules of the EU systems. But it would be the least economically damaging Brexit.May's problem is that she is being dragged towards the hard leave by the ERG-wing of her party, but she knows that would be economically catastrophic. So she's tried to negotiate a deal which keeps many of the benefits of retaining close links with the EU whilst satisfying the ERG that we have all the benefits of totally leaving. So she announced that we'd be leaving the SM and the CU (to satisfy the ERG) but then wants the benefits of close trade with the EU (which has led the EU to insist that we have the NI backstop).That is an impossible deal to produce. As some of us have been saying for two years, and as she's now finally realising.So, with respect, saying that Starmer would have no easier a job negotiating with the EU misses the point. He and Labour would have a FAR easier job, because they are starting from a different position, and looking for a more realistic outcome. Sure, Labour would have to address the criticism that their Brexit wasn't actually Brexit, but that's one for Labour to address with the electorate, not with the EU.
Did anyone hear the German and Polish politician on Radio 4 this morning?When asked the German said there was no possibility of renegotiation as we had got a very good deal out of the EU. However when the Polish gentleman was asked the same question, he was very strongly of the opinion that in the interests of his country and citizens living in the UK that ANY DEAL with us would be preferable to no deal. Now this is directly the opposite of the line we are being fed by TM. So does this show who has the whip hand in the EU?
Quote from: Axholme Lion on December 13, 2018, 09:51:46 amDid anyone hear the German and Polish politician on Radio 4 this morning?When asked the German said there was no possibility of renegotiation as we had got a very good deal out of the EU. However when the Polish gentleman was asked the same question, he was very strongly of the opinion that in the interests of his country and citizens living in the UK that ANY DEAL with us would be preferable to no deal. Now this is directly the opposite of the line we are being fed by TM. So does this show who has the whip hand in the EU?Has the thought that TM has been bullshitting us for the past two years not crossed your mind?
What I want they won't give, but the Polish guy seemed to give the impression that they would be more flexible than what the EU in general are at the moment if a deal is the way we are going?I want a no deal Brexit, so what I think is irrelevant really.
Quote from: Axholme Lion on December 13, 2018, 03:33:00 pmWhat I want they won't give, but the Polish guy seemed to give the impression that they would be more flexible than what the EU in general are at the moment if a deal is the way we are going?I want a no deal Brexit, so what I think is irrelevant really. If what you want is what the EU has said we can't have right from the start, and they said it before the referendum, then anybody still thinking they can get it after the referendum must have had their head up their backsides for the past two and a half years.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on December 13, 2018, 04:01:51 pmQuote from: Axholme Lion on December 13, 2018, 03:33:00 pmWhat I want they won't give, but the Polish guy seemed to give the impression that they would be more flexible than what the EU in general are at the moment if a deal is the way we are going?I want a no deal Brexit, so what I think is irrelevant really. If what you want is what the EU has said we can't have right from the start, and they said it before the referendum, then anybody still thinking they can get it after the referendum must have had their head up their backsides for the past two and a half years.Which is why I would walk away, but that was not what it sounded like the Polish guy wanted to happen.
Quote from: Axholme Lion on December 13, 2018, 04:13:45 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on December 13, 2018, 04:01:51 pmQuote from: Axholme Lion on December 13, 2018, 03:33:00 pmWhat I want they won't give, but the Polish guy seemed to give the impression that they would be more flexible than what the EU in general are at the moment if a deal is the way we are going?I want a no deal Brexit, so what I think is irrelevant really. If what you want is what the EU has said we can't have right from the start, and they said it before the referendum, then anybody still thinking they can get it after the referendum must have had their head up their backsides for the past two and a half years.Which is why I would walk away, but that was not what it sounded like the Polish guy wanted to happen.Well, if you're happy for the UK to get shafted in the ten years or so it'll take to negotiate trade deals, I can tell you I'm not.
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on December 13, 2018, 04:17:23 pmQuote from: Axholme Lion on December 13, 2018, 04:13:45 pmQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on December 13, 2018, 04:01:51 pmQuote from: Axholme Lion on December 13, 2018, 03:33:00 pmWhat I want they won't give, but the Polish guy seemed to give the impression that they would be more flexible than what the EU in general are at the moment if a deal is the way we are going?I want a no deal Brexit, so what I think is irrelevant really. If what you want is what the EU has said we can't have right from the start, and they said it before the referendum, then anybody still thinking they can get it after the referendum must have had their head up their backsides for the past two and a half years.Which is why I would walk away, but that was not what it sounded like the Polish guy wanted to happen.Well, if you're happy for the UK to get shafted in the ten years or so it'll take to negotiate trade deals, I can tell you I'm not.Shafted in what way?