Dig it up.!!!!!!!!!

[wing commander]

The first signing id be pushing for is a JCB on hire who can pop round old belle vue and turn up to the moat with the topsoil......
Having spoken to someone who played in the recent Charity match they couldnt believe how rock hard that pitch is and surely is the reason why we are beset with groin,hernia,strains and joint injuries!!

    Of course it is not anything to do with the Rovers but those clowns down at the SMC.We have recentley had the rent renegotiated where we pay a lot more rental for the keepmoat so surely we should expect better.Mind you it has to be said our ceo is a lot to be desired in my opinion.Surely if you were being being hit with massive extra charges then somebody with a ounce of business gumption would have hit them back with conditions of our own,so good in fact we didnt even have the bloody authority to train on the pitch when requested last month..
    The question really is how much pressure can we hit the smc with to get this sorted,we have all this fancy interwoven plastic but i cant see any advantages to it..If we could have a pitch with a bit of give in it i bet it would be like signing 3 players as they would be playing rather than layed on the table..
   They wont do it unless they had to thats for sure,in fact if the smc could save money on groundsmen by concreting it and painting it green they would.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The pitch is getting it's refurb starting today I believe, though the groundsman may come on and correct me on that.

[Filo]

The pitch is getting it's refurb starting today I believe, though the groundsman may come on and correct me on that.

Can`t see that happening during the Rugby League season

[wing commander]

Yes but what refurb is it??? Andy wont admit it im sure but lets just say the alleged rumours are that in previous seasons the proffesional opinion given to sort it out hasnt been uptaken by the smc due to costs..!!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The pitch is getting it's refurb starting today I believe, though the groundsman may come on and correct me on that.

Can`t see that happening during the Rugby League season

They have a 3 week gap before their next home game now.  Like I said it might be wrong, just what my Dad was saying last night (he works at the stadium on match days the Dons were at home yesterday).

[Bristol Red Rover]

As said in a previous thread, its easy to leap on this as the reason for injuries. Stock for one came with injury susceptability, as did Brooker.

There are several other clubs that have the same surface - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desso_GrassMaster. Do they have injuries like ours? I don't think they do.

It may be that the strain injuries are caused by the pitch, though am not sure thats proven, and a surface that has too much give in it would surely cause those injuries too. A plus of the surface is its more even, less likely to cut up and cause injuries from that. Its also more conducive to our passing game.

I'm no expert, but I don't think its possible to recreate it with a softer surface due to the fibres.

Personally, I wish we'd tried to recreate the Belle Vue surface with its superb drainage. I'm assuming this is the cheaper option.

[wing commander]

Well thats a great point Bristol,i didnt know there were so many others using the same system..So if we could find out from either Andy or the SMC that all the reccomended maintenance procedures had been followed as advised by the installers we could start looking elsewhere for the problem..;-)

[Bristol Red Rover]

Sounds like a plan. I'd be interested to see an analysis of injuries with clubs playing on that kind of surface compared with the norm, just to be sure.

I think the main culprits in order are:

Bad luck
Susceptable players
Something wrong in training and fitness regimes
Players going to the wrong kind of massage parlours

[wing commander]

I will await that confirmation with interest before i start looking elsewhere Bristol...

[auckleyflyer]

Did a stadium tour of Man City about a month ago, (in manch and my boys are tevez crazy).
Anyhow same desso ? pitch, relayed last yr due to players complaining it was too hard / injury's !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[goalkick]

tons of sand outside the gates,plus tractors and  workmen digging part of the pitch miday today.

[Rover By The Tyne]

I played (and scored ) on the pitch on Saturday in the Charity match and must admit the ground was incredibly hard, i felt sore after just 65mins of playing time and im still aching now. So it must effect the players on there week in week out. Great surface though, smooth as you like

[i_ateallthepies]

The hardness of the pitch is probably less to do with the surface than it is the subsurface.  I saw a photo of the stadium during construction and the pitch looked to be going on top of a couple of feet of building sand.
Anyone who's ever run along cleethorpes beach just after the tide's gone out will know just how bloody hard it can be.
Do what you want with the growing medium on top, it's still going to be hard as stone.
Nothing you can do in three weeks is going to sort that problem.  Deep spiking with a hollow tine fork would improve it temporarily but need repeating regularly.

[Andy Thompson]

Anyone who has any questions relating to the pitch drop me a pm and i will endevour to answer them

Thanks

[benaldo]

Here's a question -

How come Man Utd, Spurs, Man City, West Ham (and many others) all have the exact same pitch type/make as the one at the keepmoat but have not had to endure the same amount of injuries?

[i_ateallthepies]

Here's a question -

How come Man Utd, Spurs, Man City, West Ham (and many others) all have the exact same pitch type/make as the one at the keepmoat but have not had to endure the same amount of injuries?

Perhaps they don't have a substrate of pure sand beneath the surface.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I think the pitch has stood up well compared to previous seasons, particularly the one after the infamous Gridiron game.

The pitch refurb and the work done last summer seems to have improved it overall however, I would like to hear Andy's views if he thinks it's a factor on the injuries and whether any more can be done to soften it up a little.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Is it necessary to have a different \"soil\" or base with a Desso design?

Are Desso pitches harder than normal?

Is the Keepmoat pitch any harder than the other Desso pitches in the UK?

[Filo]

It looks like Wigan dug their Desso pitch up after having problems with the desso subsurface compacting

http://www.sportsturf.uk.com/pdf/wigan.pdf

[graingrover]

If we do not change the composition of the substrata will the pitch again compact next season . If it does then inevitably we will have the same frequency of injuries as this year .
           Any athlete who trains or plays on hard surfaces regularly inevitably will suffer strains , muscle damage and even stress fractures but groin strains will be the most common due to the added impact stress on the hips from runn,ing on hard surfaces . ... according to Marathon magazines I have read .

[Wild Rover]

Is it necessary to have a different \"soil\" or base with a Desso design?

Are Desso pitches harder than normal?

Is the Keepmoat pitch any harder than the other Desso pitches in the UK?

Let me put all in the picture.

All materials, whether sand, Aggregate, Soil etc have an OMC ( optimum moisture content ), this is the % moisture within the material that affords best compaction of that material.

The larger the nominal particle size, the less moisture will be required for maximum compaction, and the higher will be the density.

Obviously Density = Hardness in this case.

Rough figures for your digestion.

Type 1 Sub Base material ( crushed Limestone ) 2.3 Tonnes /m3
Type 2 Sub Base material ( Sand & Gravel ) 2.1 Tonnes /m3
Sand                                       1.7 Tonnes /m3
Soil                                       1.5 Tonnes /m3
PFA ( graded ash from coal fired Power station ) 1.2 Tonnes /m3.

The OMC of the above materials will be around
4.0%, 4.5%, 5.0%, 6.0% and 7.0%, as each material in the list is Finer than preceeding one.

The thing i am getting at is it would not matter which of those was used as a sub strata, it would be a hard platform for pitch, together with the drainage requirement sand is the only viable option.

The Sub strata at BV was essentially ash, which in the list would be next in line above.

Here endeth lesson in geological materials.

[Donny Dub]

Well thanks for that Wild Rover but what is the remedy?

There's a contractor over here in Kerry who has introduced a technique of spiking these pitches and injecting rubber plugs.  The GAA have been using it at their grounds and I sent a newspaper cutting with the details to Sean many weeks ago.

By the way please keep in touch I'd like to meet up with you next season one when I'm over for a game.

I hope you enjoy your forthcoming vacation.

Would you care to be non-elected president of our Irish supporters group?

Good luck!

[Wild Rover]

Hello John.

Looks increasingly like i will be back there in June, down in Cork and Tralee.

[benaldo]

Well thanks for that Wild Rover but what is the remedy?

There's a contractor over here in Kerry who has introduced a technique of spiking these pitches and injecting rubber plugs.  The GAA have been using it at their grounds and I sent a newspaper cutting with the details to Sean many weeks ago.

By the way please keep in touch I'd like to meet up with you next season one when I'm over for a game.

I hope you enjoy your forthcoming vacation.

Would you care to be non-elected president of our Irish supporters group?

Good luck!

I don't think there needs to be a remedy. Wild rover has said that most things would act like sand when used as substrata (excluding custard I would imagine) and all the other teams that use the exact same type of pitch and substrata - man utd for example - do not have the same injury problems yet, in the case of man utd, they play on their pitch far more than we do. The problem is NOT the pitch, that's all I know! Why don't people listen to facts instead of instantly blaming a pitch?

[graingrover]

Well why is Keepmoat so effing hard ? Old Trafford is not is it?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Is it necessary to have a different \"soil\" or base with a Desso design?

Are Desso pitches harder than normal?

Is the Keepmoat pitch any harder than the other Desso pitches in the UK?

Let me put all in the picture......

.......The thing i am getting at is it would not matter which of those was used as a sub strata, it would be a hard platform for pitch, together with the drainage requirement sand is the only viable option.

The Sub strata at BV was essentially ash, which in the list would be next in line above.

Thanks for the info WR, all helps in understanding. No offense intended, but it doesn't answer what I asked. I may not be grasping the details, but think it points towards the base not being relevant to hardness as its going to be compacted anyway?

So is the issue the turf itself - its consistancy and its thickness?

[GM-MarkB]

Is it necessary to have a different \"soil\" or base with a Desso design?

Are Desso pitches harder than normal?

Is the Keepmoat pitch any harder than the other Desso pitches in the UK?

Let me put all in the picture......

.......The thing i am getting at is it would not matter which of those was used as a sub strata, it would be a hard platform for pitch, together with the drainage requirement sand is the only viable option.

The Sub strata at BV was essentially ash, which in the list would be next in line above.

Thanks for the info WR, all helps in understanding. No offense intended, but it doesn't answer what I asked. I may not be grasping the details, but think it points towards the base not being relevant to hardness as its going to be compacted anyway?

So is the issue the turf itself - its consistancy and its thickness?

Once again...it's not turf, it's a grown field basically.

All the sand used is not only for the base, but also to protect the seed whilst it germinates and grows. A couple of seasons ago, we played a game on Pitch 2 just after Andy and his lads had done some restoration work on the field. Basically they put down a lot of grass seed, then covered it with about 30 tons of sand. The sand was then brushed over the surface, filling in any cracks and holes until most of it had disappeared. The result is a level surface which the seed grows through. Within weeks (pretty much by the time we played again) the sand had all but disappeared leaving a 'new' pitch.

The difference inside on the Stadium pitch is that before any sand or seed is laid down, a significant amount of the top surface is removed, taking away and rubbish and fertilizers that have been used or deposited during the season. Outside its not...then the above process is done.

As for the Finals we held inside a few years back...yes we caused some damage (inadvertantly) down the sidelines, but the rest of the surface wasn't 'harmed' by our use...ask Mr Thompson. That pitch was past its sell by date by a good 12 months after the stadium opened. I think i'm right in saying by the time that pitch was renovated it was almost 30 months old, a good 12-18 months too long. The amount of fertilizers on it to try and keep it usable was amazing (as Andy told me). The pitch should be re-done every off season, which it has been since the first surface was finally removed.

If any injuries are down to the field you can pretty much tell if and when the sand is starting to compact by when the injury 'crisis' starts in my opinion. Wasn't it around December when it all 'kicked off' ??

[Donny Dub]

Well if we're stuck with a hard pitch that gets harder through the season would it not be an idea to consider the boots the players use.  Might it not be possible to improve the soles or the linings to give them some shockproofing even if, as Benaldo seems to suggest, the match preparation and warm up is more to blame for the annual injury crisis.

Good luck!

[wing commander]

Well thanks for that Wild Rover but what is the remedy?

There's a contractor over here in Kerry who has introduced a technique of spiking these pitches and injecting rubber plugs.  The GAA have been using it at their grounds and I sent a newspaper cutting with the details to Sean many weeks ago.

By the way please keep in touch I'd like to meet up with you next season one when I'm over for a game.

I hope you enjoy your forthcoming vacation.

Would you care to be non-elected president of our Irish supporters group?

Good luck!

I don't think there needs to be a remedy. Wild rover has said that most things would act like sand when used as substrata (excluding custard I would imagine) and all the other teams that use the exact same type of pitch and substrata - man utd for example - do not have the same injury problems yet, in the case of man utd, they play on their pitch far more than we do. The problem is NOT the pitch, that's all I know! Why don't people listen to facts instead of instantly blaming a pitch?

  In this case mate im not convinced we do know the full facts on the pitch

[Wild Rover]

Is it necessary to have a different \"soil\" or base with a Desso design?

Are Desso pitches harder than normal?

Is the Keepmoat pitch any harder than the other Desso pitches in the UK?

Let me put all in the picture......

.......The thing i am getting at is it would not matter which of those was used as a sub strata, it would be a hard platform for pitch, together with the drainage requirement sand is the only viable option.

The Sub strata at BV was essentially ash, which in the list would be next in line above.

Thanks for the info WR, all helps in understanding. No offense intended, but it doesn't answer what I asked. I may not be grasping the details, but think it points towards the base not being relevant to hardness as its going to be compacted anyway?

So is the issue the turf itself - its consistancy and its thickness?

Let me further elaborate on my \"Thesis\" above.

Asphalt has a \"Compacted\" density of around 2.6 Tonnes/m3
Concrete has a \"Compacted\" density of 2.4 - 2.5

Now those materials have to be \"Compacted\" by Physical rolling with a vibrating roller, or in the case of concrete \"Rolled\" or vibration poker or such.

The substata of KMS will no doubt be subject to \"Rolling\" procedure.

The only way to do away with this \"Rolling\" is to spread the sand out and then \"Flood\" the area, so effectivly allowing the sand to settle under its own weight, Course particles will obviously settle first and the \"Silt\" or fine particles later.

This will lead to a \"Softer\" or less dense strata.

However then there is the problem of \"Levelling\", which because it machinary based will inevitably create some compactive effort. But this will be only a fraction of the compaction the strata would recieve under normal laying rules.

Perhaps the solution is actually to increase the sand depth and place as described in the \"Flood\" scenario.

I know earlier someone mentioned \"Cleethorpes\" beach, which essentially is a silt as opposed to sand, this is hard relativly speaking because of the \"Salt\" contained therein.

There endeth second lesson in Geotechnics.