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No BST. YOU changed the goalposts. YOU said "no, it isn't someone else's money." when it clearly would be someone else's money. I was meaning it wouldn't be HIS (Starmer's) money. I brought Corbyn into it because his policy was relevant to my point, which was that should he have become PM, me and thee would have paid higher taxes to pay for such as NHS workers payrises.
BST, as usual, you decided to back up one of your cronies on a technicality that wasn't really the point of the argument. The point of the argument was Sydney Rovers attitude towards people of this country who he despises if they don't vote the same way as him - Only he doesn't live here so he doesn't have a vote! Similarly, he doesn't pay tax in this country either, so I'll be f**ked if he's gonna dictate how much tax people of this country should pay towards other peoples pay rises. That is not me saying I don't want to pay more tax for other peoples pay rises, before yu go down that road. It's purely a matter of principle that you got yourself involved in.
Quote from: Bentley Bullet on April 19, 2021, 06:03:40 pmBST, as usual, you decided to back up one of your cronies on a technicality that wasn't really the point of the argument. The point of the argument was Sydney Rovers attitude towards people of this country who he despises if they don't vote the same way as him - Only he doesn't live here so he doesn't have a vote! Similarly, he doesn't pay tax in this country either, so I'll be f**ked if he's gonna dictate how much tax people of this country should pay towards other peoples pay rises. That is not me saying I don't want to pay more tax for other peoples pay rises, before yu go down that road. It's purely a matter of principle that you got yourself involved in.I get it BB.You haven't actually engaged with a word I've said on the issue we were talking about. You haven't addressed the point that Govt spending on pay rises for low paid workers would lift the whole economy (so that, even if you DID pay more tax, that would be outweighed by higher income - which would you prefer? 20% tax on a £5000 income or 50% tax on £10,000 income?).Nope. Ignore all that. Just make it another one of your personal attacks. I never learn...https://mobile.twitter.com/donaldcclarke/status/1383590473399345153
BpoolA sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 11:20:07 amBpoolA sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace. I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also
Quote from: bpoolrover on April 20, 2021, 12:36:49 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 11:20:07 amBpoolA sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace. I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also BpoolWhat is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 02:56:29 pmQuote from: bpoolrover on April 20, 2021, 12:36:49 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 11:20:07 amBpoolA sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace. I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also BpoolWhat is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start. how much do you think that should be?
Quote from: bpoolrover on April 20, 2021, 05:56:14 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 02:56:29 pmQuote from: bpoolrover on April 20, 2021, 12:36:49 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 11:20:07 amBpoolA sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace. I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also BpoolWhat is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start. how much do you think that should be?It'll start small. But it has to come. Because so many jobs are going to be lost to automation or AI. Governments can't let massive companies run the productive economy with no staff and expect everyone else to get by on serving each other coffee.They are giving no strings $2000 cheques to every adult in America. I suspect that will become a permanent thing. Done sensibly, UBI effectively gives everyone in society the basic income to just about exist. It replaces the basic welfare safety net (BB. There you go. No change) but the key is that EVERYONE gets it. And none of it is taken off you if you work on top of that. It'll take years to get to that level, but it's coming.
I see the point in supporting those less well off income wise.However, where do you draw that line? There becomes a point where surely if the gap on pay closes, middle income earners will question why they do the job they do. If you lift the income of the poorest page you have to proportionately do it for all?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 06:41:06 pmQuote from: bpoolrover on April 20, 2021, 05:56:14 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 02:56:29 pmQuote from: bpoolrover on April 20, 2021, 12:36:49 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 11:20:07 amBpoolA sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace. I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also BpoolWhat is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start. how much do you think that should be?It'll start small. But it has to come. Because so many jobs are going to be lost to automation or AI. Governments can't let massive companies run the productive economy with no staff and expect everyone else to get by on serving each other coffee.They are giving no strings $2000 cheques to every adult in America. I suspect that will become a permanent thing. Done sensibly, UBI effectively gives everyone in society the basic income to just about exist. It replaces the basic welfare safety net (BB. There you go. No change) but the key is that EVERYONE gets it. And none of it is taken off you if you work on top of that. It'll take years to get to that level, but it's coming. I don’t know much about it, am I right in think you would get a one off payment each month/year and that’s it no other benefits?
Quote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on April 21, 2021, 06:48:21 amI see the point in supporting those less well off income wise.However, where do you draw that line? There becomes a point where surely if the gap on pay closes, middle income earners will question why they do the job they do. If you lift the income of the poorest page you have to proportionately do it for all?There's a clue in the name of UNIVERSAL Basic Income.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 21, 2021, 10:07:39 amQuote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on April 21, 2021, 06:48:21 amI see the point in supporting those less well off income wise.However, where do you draw that line? There becomes a point where surely if the gap on pay closes, middle income earners will question why they do the job they do. If you lift the income of the poorest page you have to proportionately do it for all?There's a clue in the name of UNIVERSAL Basic Income.Clearly, but I'm talking proportionately whereas yours would likely be a set fee. It's all well and good giving everyone 2k but that has to be non taxable or it gets reduced for those who are taxed thus not universal and the valid points on benefits too. This by definition does then reduce the wages gap for some if it was to be taxed.I also don't ever see politically the left wing accepting this going to a higher rate earner.
The principle of UBI is based on the idea that society has a responsibility to help those who fall on hard times.We already have that principle because we have a system of benefits for people at the bottom of the scale. Yes, some of that is abused, but the vast majority isn't. The overwhelming majority of benefits go to people who have, through no fault of their own, lost their job, become ill or been unable to get a job that pays them enough to live beyond existence level.The problem with benefits is that they do tend to reduce the incentive to make more of yourself. Because as you start to earn, you lose your benefit. So why bother? That's what leads to the vitriol we oftne see in here about the workshy and the scroungers.UBI addresses this by saying the State will pay EVERYONE what is effectively a baseline benefit. It won't be taxed. it won't affect tax on your other earnings. and it won't be taken away from you as you start to work and earn. So it provides a safety net for those who genuinely cannot earn. But it doesn't provide a disincentive for those who can.Of course it is massively expensive. If you give every adult in Britain £10k, that's about 20% of our GDP. But think of the alternative. Over the next few decades, there is a revolution in automation and AI coming. Driving jobs will go with driverless cars. Warehouse jobs will go with robots. Ditto construction jobs. Why employ an accountant when AI systems will be able to do their job? Or lawyers when AI can understand and argue every point of the law far more correctly and efficiently?Which raises the questions. What happens to to poor bas**rds whose jobs have vanished? And where is the money going that they used to take in wages?The answer to the second question is "Into the pockets of the companies that run the AI and automated systems".The answer to the first question is "They starve, unless society looks after them. By, for example, massive taxes on the Googles and Ubers and Apples which is used to fund UBI."
Quote from: bpoolrover on April 21, 2021, 12:54:19 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 06:41:06 pmQuote from: bpoolrover on April 20, 2021, 05:56:14 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 02:56:29 pmQuote from: bpoolrover on April 20, 2021, 12:36:49 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on April 20, 2021, 11:20:07 amBpoolA sensible fiscal policy in a depression pours money into the pockets of people who will spend. It doesn't take it off them through stealth taxes. That would be utterly self-defeating.Like I keep saying. Watch America. They are currently rolling out absolutely textbook policies for kickstarting your economy after a depression.Helicopter money (dropping free money into people's bank accounts)Massively raised child benefit (helping out young families who have been hardest hit by lockdowns)Huge investment in infrastructure projects (to get people working and earning)None of that is being accompanied by large tax rises. Just watch over the next 2 years how their economy rises out of the COVID depression on steroids, while ours grows at a much slower pace. I understand that but the only way round that would be to increase benefit allowance meaning more people getting government help, if your low paid on any benefit and you got a 2k a year pay rise you would see none of it, if you raise benefits people who are not on them will not be happy also BpoolWhat is coming, fast, is a Universal Basic Income. Which everyone gets, whether out of work or a billionaire. The cheques that every American has received over the past year is just the start. how much do you think that should be?It'll start small. But it has to come. Because so many jobs are going to be lost to automation or AI. Governments can't let massive companies run the productive economy with no staff and expect everyone else to get by on serving each other coffee.They are giving no strings $2000 cheques to every adult in America. I suspect that will become a permanent thing. Done sensibly, UBI effectively gives everyone in society the basic income to just about exist. It replaces the basic welfare safety net (BB. There you go. No change) but the key is that EVERYONE gets it. And none of it is taken off you if you work on top of that. It'll take years to get to that level, but it's coming. I don’t know much about it, am I right in think you would get a one off payment each month/year and that’s it no other benefits?That would be it in the purest form. Say every adult in the country gets £7-8k as a basic subsistence. Then anything you earn above that doesn't reduce that UBI payment. And no other benefits.Will take a long time to get to that level, but it'll come at a lower level soon. Say £1000 per year with benefits reduced by the same amount.