Boris

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is the sort of lying that just dribbles so easily from Johnson's mouth.
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/theres-no-question-of-there-being-checks-on-goods-going-from-ni-to-gb-or-gb/

Insisting, a few days before an Election that there would be no border checks between GB and NI, when he had put his signature to a document which explicitly required such checks. That's not a misunderstanding. It's not a slip of the tongue. It is an out and out lie, said in full knowledge that it is a lie. I'll repeat. Until very, very recently, politicians simply did not do this. It was career-ending to lie so baldly as this on a matter of easily checkable objective truth. If you accept that and just "Meh", you have given up on the foundation of democracy, which requires policy and decisions to be made on the basis of facts.

This sort of untruth is a different one.
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/the-economy-under-this-conservative-government-has-grown-by-73-per-cent/

It's unquestionably an untruth. But you could fairly claim that it's a slip of the tongue or an incorrect briefing note from a researcher that got it wrong. They key thing then is what you do about it. If you care about honesty, you issue a retraction, setting the record straight. Johnson simply never, ever does that. So the untruth sits on the record. Which, in practice, is as bad as deliberately lying in the first place.

I've seen someone say, and they may be right, that Johnson isn't the sort of liar who deliberately lies to mislead as part of a strategy. He just doesn't care about the truth. He says whatever comes into his head to get him out of the pickle he currently finds himself in.

Which, if you think about, is terrifying in a national leader.

[SydneyRover]

You could test the theory the he doesn't lie deliberately, if one could be arsed that is by looking at where he has lied that negatively reflects about what he and his government has done, all things being equal there should be an equal number of them.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Just to help BB out here....
 
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

That's why he liked Peppa Pig World so much. He's right at home in the middle of lots of porkies.

[tommy toes]

BST
I don't get involved in these political arguments with BB, Belton et al anymore, and I've advised you more than once to do the same.

Bentley Bullet is either a complete WUM or just blind to any evidence you or anyone else provides on the objective truth as to what a nasty piece of work we have as a PM.
 He just responds with infantile barbs and is not worth the effort.
Give over man.

...drums fingers while waiting for BB to call me a disciple.

[Bentley Bullet]

TT, I suggest you read the thread again from post number 180.

I have the highest regard for loyal people and understand your support for your lord and leader, even though I strongly disagree with his attitude.

Perhaps you could show even more support for him by answering some of the questions put to him over the years that he has swerved away from?

...Drum roll while waiting for you to ask me for examples..... Clue, there's one or two on this very thread.

[tommy toes]

BB
As I said I don't get involved in arguing with you anymore.
It's a waste of time.
I have no allegiance to BST.
I just know he provides EVIDENCE to support his views (which are similar to mine) and you're just a ner ner ner merchant.

[Bentley Bullet]

TT, let's break this down a bit. This thread is about Boris being a liar. I'm not refuting that point. My point is, and always was, that all parties lie, including Labour. BST refutes that point, this time by saying Starmer didn't lie about the EU vaccine programme.

Look at his post number 201. Is that EVIDENCE, or in fact a lie?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB. Since you appear unwilling or unable to look into this issue yourself, I'll explain it patiently.

At the time of that Starmer "lie", the Tories had for weeks been using the line that under Starmer, we would have joined the EU vaccine programme, and vaccination roll out would have been delayed. They had for weeks been saying that was Labour's policy.

It wasn't.

Ever.

That was a straightforward lie. The Full Fact correction: C4 FactCheck organisation asked the Tories for evidence of that claim and were stonewalled. Labour had become increasingly exasperated in trying to counter this lie.

In Parliament that day, Johnson said (and here's the direct quote from Hansard) "If we had listened to the honourable gentleman, Mr Speaker, we would still be at the starting blocks (on vaccination), because he wanted to stay in the European Medicines Agency, Mr Speaker, and said so four times from that despatch box."

The EMA has nothing whatsoever to do with countries' ability to join or not join the EU vaccine programme. So this was a totally misleading statement.

Starmer lost his rag (which he shouldn't have done) and very angrily replied "The Prime Minister knows I’ve never said that, from this despatch box or anywhere else.”

That was incorrect. Starmer HAD said that his policy was to join the EMA. But he was clearly riled by Johnson's conflation of that with the EU vaccine programme, and it is obvious to any neutral observed that it was the vaccine programme that Starmer was referring to. In fact Starmer had never once said that we should join the vaccine programme.

But, technically, Starmer had misled the House of Commons.

When heads cleared, within a few hours, Labour issued a clear and unambiguous retraction of the claim that Starmer ad never said he wanted to join the EMA. The record was put straight. It was a mistake, speedily corrected.  The irony is that it was an untruth said in the heat of the moment (and later retracted) whilst trying to counter an untruth said repeatedly over several weeks and NOT retracted. And you, BB, conclude from that that Starmer is a liar. Bizarre behaviour.


Compare and contrast to Johnson satanding in front of the House and saying GDP had gone up by 73% under the Tories since 2010.

It hadn't. It had gone up by 73% since 1990, with most of that rise coming under the Labour Govt. Since 2010, GDP under the Tories had gone up by 20%. Those are all incontrovertible facts.

It was pointed out to Johnson that he had misled the House. Result:Nothing. No apology, no explanation of the cause of the mistake. No correction or retraction. The record still shows Johnson claiming an outright untruth to be true.


BB. You could have looked all that up yourself. But you don't and you won't because, as I say, you are a WUM who isn't interested in informed debate. You want to cause needless fights. And then whine about it when people tell you that bluntly.

[River Don]

I see Boris has had a discrete meeting with the 1922 comittee in the head masters office this morning.

Oh to be a fly on the wall for that one.

[belton rover]

BST
I don't get involved in these political arguments with BB, Belton et al anymore, and I've advised you more than once to do the same.

Bentley Bullet is either a complete WUM or just blind to any evidence you or anyone else provides on the objective truth as to what a nasty piece of work we have as a PM.
 He just responds with infantile barbs and is not worth the effort.
Give over man.

...drums fingers while waiting for BB to call me a disciple.

Hey, Tommy. Have we ever even had an ‘argument’?
I don’t recall doing so - you must have been insignificantly wrong.

[Bentley Bullet]

BB. Since you appear unwilling or unable to look into this issue yourself, I'll explain it patiently.

At the time of that Starmer "lie", the Tories had for weeks been using the line that under Starmer, we would have joined the EU vaccine programme, and vaccination roll out would have been delayed. They had for weeks been saying that was Labour's policy.

It wasn't.

Ever.

That was a straightforward lie. The Full Fact correction: C4 FactCheck organisation asked the Tories for evidence of that claim and were stonewalled. Labour had become increasingly exasperated in trying to counter this lie.

In Parliament that day, Johnson said (and here's the direct quote from Hansard) "If we had listened to the honourable gentleman, Mr Speaker, we would still be at the starting blocks (on vaccination), because he wanted to stay in the European Medicines Agency, Mr Speaker, and said so four times from that despatch box."

The EMA has nothing whatsoever to do with countries' ability to join or not join the EU vaccine programme. So this was a totally misleading statement.

Starmer lost his rag (which he shouldn't have done) and very angrily replied "The Prime Minister knows I’ve never said that, from this despatch box or anywhere else.”

That was incorrect. Starmer HAD said that his policy was to join the EMA. But he was clearly riled by Johnson's conflation of that with the EU vaccine programme, and it is obvious to any neutral observed that it was the vaccine programme that Starmer was referring to. In fact Starmer had never once said that we should join the vaccine programme.

But, technically, Starmer had misled the House of Commons.

When heads cleared, within a few hours, Labour issued a clear and unambiguous retraction of the claim that Starmer ad never said he wanted to join the EMA. The record was put straight. It was a mistake, speedily corrected.  The irony is that it was an untruth said in the heat of the moment (and later retracted) whilst trying to counter an untruth said repeatedly over several weeks and NOT retracted. And you, BB, conclude from that that Starmer is a liar. Bizarre behaviour.


Compare and contrast to Johnson satanding in front of the House and saying GDP had gone up by 73% under the Tories since 2010.

It hadn't. It had gone up by 73% since 1990, with most of that rise coming under the Labour Govt. Since 2010, GDP under the Tories had gone up by 20%. Those are all incontrovertible facts.

It was pointed out to Johnson that he had misled the House. Result:Nothing. No apology, no explanation of the cause of the mistake. No correction or retraction. The record still shows Johnson claiming an outright untruth to be true.


BB. You could have looked all that up yourself. But you don't and you won't because, as I say, you are a WUM who isn't interested in informed debate. You want to cause needless fights. And then whine about it when people tell you that bluntly.

Let's cut through the waffle. Why did Starmer admit that he was wrong and had made a mistake at PMQs?

[BillyStubbsTears]

For f**k's sake. Because he said "The Prime Minister knows I’ve never said that, from this despatch box or anywhere else.” He mistakenly conflated the actual thing Johnson was accusing him of saying, with the claim that Johnson had made several times in recent weeks, that Starmer wanted us to join the vaccine programme.

That was techncally wrong. And when tempers cooled, it was quickly and publicly corrected.

Let me get this right. Are you saying anyone who ever says something that is factually incorrect is automatically a liar, even if they rapidly correct the record?

[tommy toes]

BST
I don't get involved in these political arguments with BB, Belton et al anymore, and I've advised you more than once to do the same.

Bentley Bullet is either a complete WUM or just blind to any evidence you or anyone else provides on the objective truth as to what a nasty piece of work we have as a PM.
 He just responds with infantile barbs and is not worth the effort.
Give over man.

...drums fingers while waiting for BB to call me a disciple.

Hey, Tommy. Have we ever even had an ‘argument’?
I don’t recall doing so - you must have been insignificantly wrong.

OK.
Months and months ago I used to contribute to these topics, when you and your Leader BB were spouting right wing bile and were obviously not willing to debate reasoned argument.
So I withdrew, due to the nastiness and complete ignorance  of you and your leader's posts.
So perhaps we never had a direct 'argument'  you're right.

[Bentley Bullet]

For f**k's sake. Because he said "The Prime Minister knows I’ve never said that, from this despatch box or anywhere else.” He mistakenly conflated the actual thing Johnson was accusing him of saying, with the claim that Johnson had made several times in recent weeks, that Starmer wanted us to join the vaccine programme.

That was techncally wrong. And when tempers cooled, it was quickly and publicly corrected.

Let me get this right. Are you saying anyone who ever says something that is factually incorrect is automatically a liar, even if they rapidly correct the record?

But you said Starmer apologised Immediately. He didn't. I'll accept you made a mistake.

Anyway.

 Am I you saying anyone who ever says something that is factually incorrect is automatically a liar, even if they rapidly correct the record?

No. Like I've said before, in this very thread, in fact, we are all guilty of errors and inaccuracies in things we say.

The sad thing is that errors and inaccuracies are called lies if you're a Tory MP.

[MachoMadness]

BB
As I said I don't get involved in arguing with you anymore.
It's a waste of time.
I have no allegiance to BST.
I just know he provides EVIDENCE to support his views (which are similar to mine) and you're just a ner ner ner merchant.

God bless you for trying TT. I'm in much the same boat these days. I can't speak for you but I know I've had fairly robust disagreements with BST on many occasions. As have most of the so-called disciples. And yet when members of BB's tommy opposite gang throw out actual racist slurs, not one of them spoke up about it. I realised then there's no point in even posting really because BST is the final boss of the forum to this lot. Being right or even just being decent doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is winning an argument with him, any argument, and it's ruined the forum.

[Filo]

BB
As I said I don't get involved in arguing with you anymore.
It's a waste of time.
I have no allegiance to BST.
I just know he provides EVIDENCE to support his views (which are similar to mine) and you're just a ner ner ner merchant.

God bless you for trying TT. I'm in much the same boat these days. I can't speak for you but I know I've had fairly robust disagreements with BST on many occasions. As have most of the so-called disciples. And yet when members of BB's tommy opposite gang throw out actual racist slurs, not one of them spoke up about it. I realised then there's no point in even posting really because BST is the final boss of the forum to this lot. Being right or even just being decent doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is winning an argument with him, any argument, and it's ruined the forum.

Well said

[Bentley Bullet]

That's good, coming from the bloke who probably started it!

(See post 180)

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB. And you really don't get why I don't respect you? Dear God it's like arguing with a stroppy 7 year old.

[Bentley Bullet]

Bravo Billy! You should be really proud of yourself.

[belton rover]

Tommy. I’ve only ever voted Labour.
I just accept democratic elections/votes.

Starmer is more right wing than I am.

[tommy toes]

BB
As I said I don't get involved in arguing with you anymore.
It's a waste of time.
I have no allegiance to BST.
I just know he provides EVIDENCE to support his views (which are similar to mine) and you're just a ner ner ner merchant.

God bless you for trying TT. I'm in much the same boat these days. I can't speak for you but I know I've had fairly robust disagreements with BST on many occasions. As have most of the so-called disciples. And yet when members of BB's tommy opposite gang throw out actual racist slurs, not one of them spoke up about it. I realised then there's no point in even posting really because BST is the final boss of the forum to this lot. Being right or even just being decent doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is winning an argument with him, any argument, and it's ruined the forum.

Yes you're right Macho.
Bentley Bullet comes across as an egotist who thinks he should be the number one voice of the Forum and has this warped idea that those who disagree with him must be the disciples of the person who calls him out on his failings.
Sad really, and I want no part of it.

[Glyn_Wigley]

BB
As I said I don't get involved in arguing with you anymore.
It's a waste of time.
I have no allegiance to BST.
I just know he provides EVIDENCE to support his views (which are similar to mine) and you're just a ner ner ner merchant.

God bless you for trying TT. I'm in much the same boat these days. I can't speak for you but I know I've had fairly robust disagreements with BST on many occasions. As have most of the so-called disciples. And yet when members of BB's tommy opposite gang throw out actual racist slurs, not one of them spoke up about it. I realised then there's no point in even posting really because BST is the final boss of the forum to this lot. Being right or even just being decent doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is winning an argument with him, any argument, and it's ruined the forum.

Yes you're right Macho.
Bentley Bullet comes across as an egotist who thinks he should be the number one voice of the Forum and has this warped idea that those who disagree with him must be the disciples of the person who calls him out on his failings.
Sad really, and I want no part of it.

It's Wroey all over again.

[Bentley Bullet]

TT, I know you don't want to contribute anymore, after reading your last few contributions but are you suggesting that I disagree with BST more than he disagrees with me?

[tommy toes]

My posts today were about not contributing and why.
I think me and Macho have explained it well.
There's a great song by Jethro Tull called 'Nothing to Say'
That's me now.

[Glyn_Wigley]

BB
As I said I don't get involved in arguing with you anymore.
It's a waste of time.
I have no allegiance to BST.
I just know he provides EVIDENCE to support his views (which are similar to mine) and you're just a ner ner ner merchant.

God bless you for trying TT. I'm in much the same boat these days. I can't speak for you but I know I've had fairly robust disagreements with BST on many occasions. As have most of the so-called disciples. And yet when members of BB's tommy opposite gang throw out actual racist slurs, not one of them spoke up about it. I realised then there's no point in even posting really because BST is the final boss of the forum to this lot. Being right or even just being decent doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is winning an argument with him, any argument, and it's ruined the forum.

Do they remind you of this at all?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

[belton rover]

BB
As I said I don't get involved in arguing with you anymore.
It's a waste of time.
I have no allegiance to BST.
I just know he provides EVIDENCE to support his views (which are similar to mine) and you're just a ner ner ner merchant.

God bless you for trying TT. I'm in much the same boat these days. I can't speak for you but I know I've had fairly robust disagreements with BST on many occasions. As have most of the so-called disciples. And yet when members of BB's tommy opposite gang throw out actual racist slurs, not one of them spoke up about it. I realised then there's no point in even posting really because BST is the final boss of the forum to this lot. Being right or even just being decent doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is winning an argument with him, any argument, and it's ruined the forum.

Do they remind you of this at all?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

Who are the ‘they’ you refer to?

[Glyn_Wigley]

BB
As I said I don't get involved in arguing with you anymore.
It's a waste of time.
I have no allegiance to BST.
I just know he provides EVIDENCE to support his views (which are similar to mine) and you're just a ner ner ner merchant.

God bless you for trying TT. I'm in much the same boat these days. I can't speak for you but I know I've had fairly robust disagreements with BST on many occasions. As have most of the so-called disciples. And yet when members of BB's tommy opposite gang throw out actual racist slurs, not one of them spoke up about it. I realised then there's no point in even posting really because BST is the final boss of the forum to this lot. Being right or even just being decent doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is winning an argument with him, any argument, and it's ruined the forum.

Do they remind you of this at all?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

Who are the ‘they’ you refer to?

The people that Macho are referring to, of course. Do try to keep up.

[belton rover]

BB
As I said I don't get involved in arguing with you anymore.
It's a waste of time.
I have no allegiance to BST.
I just know he provides EVIDENCE to support his views (which are similar to mine) and you're just a ner ner ner merchant.

God bless you for trying TT. I'm in much the same boat these days. I can't speak for you but I know I've had fairly robust disagreements with BST on many occasions. As have most of the so-called disciples. And yet when members of BB's tommy opposite gang throw out actual racist slurs, not one of them spoke up about it. I realised then there's no point in even posting really because BST is the final boss of the forum to this lot. Being right or even just being decent doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is winning an argument with him, any argument, and it's ruined the forum.

Do they remind you of this at all?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

Who are the ‘they’ you refer to?

The people that Macho are referring to, of course. Do try to keep up.

No you are not.

[wilts rover]

Officers of 1922 Committe visited Downing Street this afternoon

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-25/prominent-u-k-tories-meet-boris-johnson-after-turbulent-weeks?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_term=211125&utm_campaign=author_15116245

reputed to be 30 letters now in -54 needed to force a vote

[belton rover]

And then after BB acting like a ten-year-old we get  belton's five-year-old's 'that's you that is' act.

Who?