Brexit Dividend

[wilts rover]

Inflation in the EU - 8.9%. In France, 6.1%, Germany, 7.5%, Italy 7.9%

What exactly was it we took back control of again - certainly not the economy.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=g20

Tell us how much they've bailed their energy companies out for?

Apparently inflation is due to the energy prices going up due to the war in Ukraine.

So why has it gone up highest in the country furthest away from Ukraine - that imports little oil and gas from Russia - and is an actual exporter of oil and gas?

[Sprotyrover]

Inflation in the EU - 8.9%. In France, 6.1%, Germany, 7.5%, Italy 7.9%

What exactly was it we took back control of again - certainly not the economy.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=g20

Tell us how much they've bailed their energy companies out for?

Apparently inflation is due to the energy prices going up due to the war in Ukraine.

So why has it gone up highest in the country furthest away from Ukraine - that imports little oil and gas from Russia - and is an actual exporter of oil and gas?

The Oil and gas industry is Private, the way Govts make money out of Oil and Gas is by taxing the profits of the Oil and Gas Industry, a hefty windfall tax may be a good idea, but one would hope that said profits are utilised by the companies to re invest in the underfunded development of the 'Demonised' Oil and Gas fields lurking in a very sinister  (To all you Green and Woke idiots) in British waters,

[i_ateallthepies]

Interesting that those on 100% renewable electricity have had their prices increased along with the rest of us.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Interesting that those on 100% renewable electricity have had their prices increased along with the rest of us.

That's market forces.

The value and therefore the price of electricity, from whatever source is the same. If there's less electricity being produced by gas but people still want to consume as much, the price of that electricity goes up. But then the producers of wind generated gas can also charge more for their product.

If we want to live in a market economy, that's how the market works.

[Sprotyrover]

Interesting that those on 100% renewable electricity have had their prices increased along with the rest of us.

That's market forces.

The value and therefore the price of electricity, from whatever source is the same. If there's less electricity being produced by gas but people still want to consume as much, the price of that electricity goes up. But then the producers of wind generated gas can also charge more for their product.

If we want to live in a market economy, that's how the market works.

Hopefully prices will come down once the North Sea Wind power energy is fully harnessed and if the Coal mine Water Schemes in Northumbria work we will be laughing but not in this decade!

[BillyStubbsTears]

The prices won't come down until enough countries have weaned themselves off gas for generating electricity, or until Putin has to turn the taps back on to Europe.

[wilts rover]

Interesting that those on 100% renewable electricity have had their prices increased along with the rest of us.

That's capitalism. Stuff that is freely available costs you lots of money to use.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Inflation in the EU - 8.9%. In France, 6.1%, Germany, 7.5%, Italy 7.9%

What exactly was it we took back control of again - certainly not the economy.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=g20

Tell us how much they've bailed their energy companies out for?

Apparently inflation is due to the energy prices going up due to the war in Ukraine.

So why has it gone up highest in the country furthest away from Ukraine - that imports little oil and gas from Russia - and is an actual exporter of oil and gas?

Spain? Not sure, I'm no expert on their economy.

Lots of interesting little stats though, wage growth is an interesting one.  Some of those countries may have lower inflation but they also have higher unemployment, lower wage growth (decrease in Germany). It's a complicated picture.

[i_ateallthepies]

Interesting that those on 100% renewable electricity have had their prices increased along with the rest of us.

That's market forces.

The value and therefore the price of electricity, from whatever source is the same. If there's less electricity being produced by gas but people still want to consume as much, the price of that electricity goes up. But then the producers of wind generated gas can also charge more for their product.

If we want to live in a market economy, that's how the market works.

That's understood, BST/Wilts but it didn't work that way prior to the energy crisis.  Anyone choosing renewable electricity would have been paying more for their usage than everyone else.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Still works Pies.

When producing electricity by burning gas was very cheap, it cost more to produce it using renewables. A limited proportion of the population, for very sound reasons, chose to pay that premium. But most people would not, and wanted electricity as cheap as they could get it. So there was no market mechanism to move the price of gas-generated electricity up to that of renewable-generated.

You could think of that as being two separate markets. One of people who were sufficiently concerned about the environment to pay the premium. One of people who weren't.

NOW we have one market, because the renewable-generated electricity costs less to produce than gas-generation. So there's no longer a premium to pay for your conscience.

[i_ateallthepies]

I am pointing out the double standard being applied in both cases, as always, to the advantage of the capitalist producers.  Your explanation seems to be excusing it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm not excusing it Pies. I'm just explaining how the market works.

A far, far more knowledgeable person than me on economics (and a more left wing one than me) said on Twitter recently that it was pointless complaining about companies maximising their profits. It's what they do. It's what their directors are pretty much legally obliged to do. He said you might as well criticise a cat for catching a mouse.

The market works how the market works. The price of renewables makes perfect sense in the context of a free market.

The real question is: should we have a free market in electricity, or should the Govt step in and control it in the national interest?

[danumdon]

I'm not excusing it Pies. I'm just explaining how the market works.

A far, far more knowledgeable person than me on economics (and a more left wing one than me) said on Twitter recently that it was pointless complaining about companies maximising their profits. It's what they do. It's what their directors are pretty much legally obliged to do. He said you might as well criticise a cat for catching a mouse.

The market works how the market works. The price of renewables makes perfect sense in the context of a free market.

The real question is: should we have a free market in electricity, or should the Govt step in and control it in the national interest?

The trouble with the question is that it opens up that many catch pits where does it stop. I think we all know what happens if the gov take full control of the energy market, it doesn't stop there and before you know it we are back to the massive bureaucracy of a government trying to run every aspect of our lives. We all know where that ends, it wasn't the answer then and it would be the same now but with additional bells hung on it just for good measure.

We are locked into this capitalist model and we will still be long after this emergency has been and gone. That's not to say the government cannot help to smooth us through this period because it can and it should.

The most sensible governments of either nomination have known when to intervene and to what extent, Blair managed to do this for a good few years without upsetting the apple cart. Its not beyond the capabilities of this or the next government to do the same.

[wilts rover]

Yes Don, we do know what happens when government takes full control of the energy market. As MacMillan said 'you have never had it so good'.

We also know that under a capitalist free market; water companies are imposing drought restrictions whilst selling off reserviors and loosing millions of gallons a day through leakage, sewage companies are dumping raw sewage in seas and rivers and beaches that were once the cleanest in Europe are now the dirtest, gas storgae facilites were closed to save money, electricty supply companies were allowed to go bust loosing millions but for which the ordinary customer was given the bill - putting up bills for customers by £thousands while creating £millions for CEO's and £billions for shareholders.

Oh yes, we know exactly what happens when the government takes full control of the energy market.

[danumdon]

The fact your talking about private companies that abuse the system is nothing to do with the principle of private enterprise running successful industries.

Lets talk about old BR, every man and his dog had a joke and a tale to tell about the efficiency and poor performance of British Rail. badly underfunded, poor rolling stock, badly maintained infrastructure, late and cramped trains very poor catering with poor old BR sandwiches becoming the thing of legend, all performed by management and staff with no accountability for the money that was being spent "its only paper money" was the big mantra.

This whole system was privatised starting in 1994, now we can all argue about the system of privatisation that they implemented and how its been managed and run since but the crux of the point is that for the next 10 to 15 years after privatisation the network had private capital introduced alongside government subsidy which heralded a massive rise in passenger numbers the highest since prior to the first world war, new rolling stock with better , smoother and longer trains to enable more passengers to travel in comfort. Private companies investing and working in the industry that was dieing on its feet.

All this could not be performed or produced under the old BR system as governments of both persuasions would not allow then to raise capital to modernise and improve the system.

Private enterprise has saved the rail network and supplied it with the tools to take on the next century of public transport.

When you look at this alongside what privatising other national assets has achieved you may very well ask, would the same developments have been achieved whilst still run by the cash starved state?

You mention water companies, the old state run system was in a situation that would of required massive amounts of capital expenditure to update and modernise the ancient Victorian sewers that were ready for collapse. The fact that the private companies invested in this infrastructure enabled the system to still be in use today, it was on a one way journey to oblivion prior to that. It was the same in many other fields, telecoms, being another that was rescued from an early pensioning off.

The fact that some of these private suppliers are creaming off the top does not mean its the same for all. Look at the innovation and progression that a company like Octopus Energy are perusing, not all the same.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD.
The rail privatisation was so badly conceived that:

1) Railtrack presided over catastrophic mismanagemt of the rails, resulting in a string of accidents with mass fatalities, 3 years of the network virtually grinding to a standstill (I used to plan on a Sheffield-Lobdon train taking 4 hours minimum when travelling to the smoke for work) and Railtrack being renationalised.

2) Bigger public subsidies than ever were spent when the trains were publicly owned.

3) Several of the TOCs still going bust and having to be renationalised.

4) Foreign state owned companies taking over much of our system.

5) To add insult to injury for us, the private sector gave so few f**ks about us oop north, they continued until last year to use 40 year old Pacer trains that they couldn't even give away to Iran.

Apart from that, privatisation was grand.

[BigH]

Lets talk about old BR, every man and his dog had a joke and a tale to tell about the efficiency and poor performance of British Rail. badly underfunded, poor rolling stock, badly maintained infrastructure, late and cramped trains very poor catering with poor old BR sandwiches becoming the thing of legend, all performed by management and staff with no accountability for the money that was being spent "its only paper money" was the big mantra.

Hmm, so not much different from what we have now then!

DD, might I politely ask when you last travelled by train. To those of us who have had the misfortune to use them regularly for work could I just flag a couple of points:

- Travel before 10 am and you need to take out another mortgage; it's often cheaper to fly
- In peak hours you will struggle to get a seat unless you hold a reservation
- Delays are regular and for all sorts of reasons; signal failure, a broken down train in front, lack of staff...
- Commuter trains have too few carriages
- Some journey times e.g. Liverpool to Manchester take longer now than 100 years ago
- £4k a season ticket if you live in the S East; that's out of net income by the way
- 'Catering' is no better than a Tesco meal deal but costs twice as much

Seriously, we have one of the worst, most underfunded, mismanaged rail networks of any 'top rank' western nation.

[Branton Red]

Inflation in the EU - 8.9%. In France, 6.1%, Germany, 7.5%, Italy 7.9%

What exactly was it we took back control of again - certainly not the economy.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=g20

Tell us how much they've bailed their energy companies out for?

Apparently inflation is due to the energy prices going up due to the war in Ukraine.

So why has it gone up highest in the country furthest away from Ukraine - that imports little oil and gas from Russia - and is an actual exporter of oil and gas?

Because we're more reliant on gas for our energy than the eurozone - particularly France for instance thanks to them embracing nuclear.

Thanks for the link Wilts - always interesting to compare UK economic performance vs other countries. Using that resource: -

Latest inflation figures: UK - 10.1%; Eurozone - 8.9%. In France, 6.1%, Germany, 7.5%, Italy 7.9%

Latest wage growth figures: UK: 5.1%; Eurozone: 2.7%; France: 0.5%; Germany: -1.4%; Italy: 1%

So real wages are falling more quickly in the Eurozone, France, Germany and Italy than they are in the UK

This is an ongoing trend - from a post I put up on this thread several weeks ago: -

"Over the 3 years to April 2022 real wage growth was 4.6% in the UK - it was in Germany (1.7%); France (1.4%); and the Eurozone (2.6%)."

So why is it that real wages have grown quickest and now, with major global price inflation, are falling slowest in the only major Western European economy outside the European Union?

[danumdon]

DD.
The rail privatisation was so badly conceived that:

1) Railtrack presided over catastrophic mismanagemt of the rails, resulting in a string of accidents with mass fatalities, 3 years of the network virtually grinding to a standstill (I used to plan on a Sheffield-Lobdon train taking 4 hours minimum when travelling to the smoke for work) and Railtrack being renationalised. Railtrack was the fall guy who took the rap for the botched privatisation that allowed the profitable assets to be sold off separately whilst this company was set up to manage the rotten infrastructure that years of government under funding had created., i did say in my piece that we can argue till the cows come home about the methodology used to carry out the sale but it doesn't change the fact that it needed open heart surgery The three major crashes with fatalities were caused by the under funding and mismanagement of the railway infrastructure whilst in government hands, one was thought to be a suicidal drivers fault but it could  never be proven. The Midland Mainline from Sheffield to St Pancras was always the bridesmaid line when compared to the East and West cost Mainlines, it had the least funding and was neglected badly both during and after privatisation, its now finally getting money spent on it and will be electrified to bring it up to scratch with the other main lines./color]

2) Bigger public subsidies than ever were spent when the trains were publicly owned.This increase in the public subsidy was to kick start the modernisation of the network, its a known fact that large parts of the network would never stand on their own in financial terms and had to be subsidised, this enabled private money to come in and provide the capital that was needed to kick start the upgrades that the state on its own had refused to do for the period of up to 30 years before right until it was all signed off to go private, 

3) Several of the TOCs still going bust and having to be renationalised.This is true because the franchising model was never the correct way to deal with the privatisation, at the time only a very few routes made a profit, the rest had to be granted subsidies to enable the private sector to take on these loss making concerns, up until 2018 most where starting to turn to profit with reducing subsidies written into the contracts,the pandemic finished off a good few, but the initial franchise was a flawed method.

4) Foreign state owned companies taking over much of our system.The reason many foreign state railways have taken over much of our system is because they could see that there was money to be made, most of these (DB, SNCF, NS, Swedish) now use the profits they make here to subsides their own networks at home. The fact they outbid British companies to buy into railways should tell you plenty.

5) To add insult to injury for us, the private sector gave so few f**ks about us oop north, they continued until last year to use 40 year old Pacer trains that they couldn't even give away to Iran.True, but money is finally being spent and has been spent on upgrading the infrastructure in the north, the pacers are now long gone more than a year ago and new stock now covers these tub road railways.

Apart from that, privatisation was grand. If you ask people who dont have political axes to grind about the state of the railways now compared to what existed before 96 they will tell you it has improved noticeably, things can always be better but knowing what was then compared to now you would have to a be very one eyed to say different, yes there is issues with the franchising model, the fares structure and the amount of money that is being wasted by the Government on its vanity project HS2 but the railways up to the pandemic were in far better shape then they had been for many years prior, very easy to knock it but i've travelled across most of the network in Europe and i can tell you that outside of the High profile intercity lines the railways in Europe on the level below this is far inferior to our national network, in punctuality, quality and frequency and that includes France, Germany, Spain and Italy the urban, cross country and local services are worse than ours../color]

[danumdon]

Lets talk about old BR, every man and his dog had a joke and a tale to tell about the efficiency and poor performance of British Rail. badly underfunded, poor rolling stock, badly maintained infrastructure, late and cramped trains very poor catering with poor old BR sandwiches becoming the thing of legend, all performed by management and staff with no accountability for the money that was being spent "its only paper money" was the big mantra.

Hmm, so not much different from what we have now then!

DD, might I politely ask when you last travelled by train. To those of us who have had the misfortune to use them regularly for work could I just flag a couple of points:

- Travel before 10 am and you need to take out another mortgage; it's often cheaper to fly
- In peak hours you will struggle to get a seat unless you hold a reservation
- Delays are regular and for all sorts of reasons; signal failure, a broken down train in front, lack of staff...
- Commuter trains have too few carriages
- Some journey times e.g. Liverpool to Manchester take longer now than 100 years ago
- £4k a season ticket if you live in the S East; that's out of net income by the way
- 'Catering' is no better than a Tesco meal deal but costs twice as much

Seriously, we have one of the worst, most underfunded, mismanaged rail networks of any 'top rank' western nation.

Would you like to provide some evidence for that statement because i would be interested to see you do so.

[Branton Red]

To bring the discussion back on topic

Those who advocate renationalising the railways do realise that if we were in the EU or were to rejoin the EU this would not be possible under EU law?

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/4th-railway-package/

"The 4th railway package includes the proposal to open up domestic passenger railways to new entrants and services. Companies would be able either to offer competing services, such as a new train service on a particular route, or to bid for public service rail contracts through tendering. The proposed changes would make competitive tendering mandatory for public service rail contracts in the EU."

Similar proposals are in the pipeline for other public utilities including energy markets.

So the choice to vote for parties advocating nationalisation of public services is yet another democratic right soon to be removed from the electorate in EU states.

Still Ode to Joy great tune eh?

[SydneyRover]

This tells you much of what you need to know about rail privatisation and the management thereof:

''''The under-fire rail operator Avanti West Coast has been “rewarded for failure”, Labour said, after the company was paid more than £17m in taxpayers’ money by ministers for performance and management fees in just two years, despite being the worst-performing operator on the rail network.

The figures from 2019-20 and 2020-21 include almost £4m in bonuses to Avanti for “operational performance”, “customer experience” and “acting as a good and efficient operator”.

At the same time, the firm raised prices, with an open return from Manchester to London – barely a two-hour journey – costing £369.40''

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/aug/19/avanti-west-coast-reward-failure-says-labour

[danumdon]

To bring the discussion back on topic

Those who advocate renationalising the railways do realise that if we were in the EU or were to rejoin the EU this would not be possible under EU law?

www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/4th-railway-package/

"The 4th railway package includes the proposal to open up domestic passenger railways to new entrants and services. Companies would be able either to offer competing services, such as a new train service on a particular route, or to bid for public service rail contracts through tendering. The proposed changes would make competitive tendering mandatory for public service rail contracts in the EU."

Similar proposals are in the pipeline for other public utilities including energy markets.

So the choice to vote for parties advocating nationalisation of public services is yet another democratic right soon to be removed from the electorate in EU states.

Still Ode to Joy great tune eh?

This is true but i would put a very large wager on it that the French and Germans manage to manipulate the system to ensure they don't have to adhere to any new legislation the commission put forward, they have been doing this for years in other sectors and still manage to get their way, Its funny because you never hear that the commission has managed to get any court submissions to be acted upon by these states.

[wilts rover]

Inflation in the EU - 8.9%. In France, 6.1%, Germany, 7.5%, Italy 7.9%

What exactly was it we took back control of again - certainly not the economy.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate?continent=g20

Tell us how much they've bailed their energy companies out for?

Apparently inflation is due to the energy prices going up due to the war in Ukraine.

So why has it gone up highest in the country furthest away from Ukraine - that imports little oil and gas from Russia - and is an actual exporter of oil and gas?

Because we're more reliant on gas for our energy than the eurozone - particularly France for instance thanks to them embracing nuclear.

Thanks for the link Wilts - always interesting to compare UK economic performance vs other countries. Using that resource: -

Latest inflation figures: UK - 10.1%; Eurozone - 8.9%. In France, 6.1%, Germany, 7.5%, Italy 7.9%

Latest wage growth figures: UK: 5.1%; Eurozone: 2.7%; France: 0.5%; Germany: -1.4%; Italy: 1%

So real wages are falling more quickly in the Eurozone, France, Germany and Italy than they are in the UK

This is an ongoing trend - from a post I put up on this thread several weeks ago: -

"Over the 3 years to April 2022 real wage growth was 4.6% in the UK - it was in Germany (1.7%); France (1.4%); and the Eurozone (2.6%)."

So why is it that real wages have grown quickest and now, with major global price inflation, are falling slowest in the only major Western European economy outside the European Union?

Dunno Branton. Perhaps is to do with the massive fall in comparative wages prior to then? In 2018 wages in the Uk were 9% highter than in 2005? In France they were 39.8% higher and in Germany 40% higher.

Or maybe its the 30% rise in salaries in the UK finacial sector whilst Germany capped their's at 3%:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-03/u-k-pay-for-finance-workers-surges-at-double-the-national-rate#xj4y7vzkg
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022/07/25/germany-is-likely-to-shift-toward-wage-restraint-as-inflation-concerns-mount/

Brexit was of course partly designed to remove restrictions from UK financial services and money markets.

What about since April? Real wages fell -3% April to June in the UK (the biggest drop on record) - how much have they fallen in the rest of Europe?

[wilts rover]

EU Law not a barrier to nationalising UK railways:

https://theconversation.com/renationalising-britains-railways-eu-law-not-a-barrier-96759
https://www.anothereurope.org/lets-be-clear-nationalisation-is-not-against-eu-law/
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2019/11/would-labours-plans-to-nationalise-bt-openreach-be-legal-under-eu-rules-2
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-railways-eu-rules-nationalise-single-market-restrictions-labour-a8968691.html

Anything is a good tune if you are prepared to open your ears to it.

[SydneyRover]

This is an extremely interesting bit from your link wilts

''EU law explicitly protects the right of member states to nationalise industries. Art. 345 TFEU states “The Treaties shall in no way prejudice the rules in Member States (MS) governing the system of property ownership.” In his book Professor Nicol argues that this provision has recently been ignored by the ECJ. This is largely correct but it does not justify the conclusion that it will always be ignored.

Art. 345 remains in the treaty. It is possible to generally promote liberal markets and operate some industries as national monopolies. Arts. 176 and 345 are not mutually exclusive. The ECJ has often been tolerant of member states accused of violating the treaties if their actions are “proportionate“, i.e. for a legitimate aim (which would include one endorsed by the electorate) and effective, but not excessive, in achieving that aim. Assuming that nationalisation was prominent in Mr Corbyn’s manifesto, conducted on a transparent timetable and proper compensation was paid, Mr Corbyn would have a strong case based on Art. 345.

[danumdon]

Lets talk about old BR, every man and his dog had a joke and a tale to tell about the efficiency and poor performance of British Rail. badly underfunded, poor rolling stock, badly maintained infrastructure, late and cramped trains very poor catering with poor old BR sandwiches becoming the thing of legend, all performed by management and staff with no accountability for the money that was being spent "its only paper money" was the big mantra.

Hmm, so not much different from what we have now then!

DD, might I politely ask when you last travelled by train. To those of us who have had the misfortune to use them regularly for work could I just flag a couple of points: I use trains regularly have done for years and seen the changes.

- Travel before 10 am and you need to take out another mortgage; it's often cheaper to fly. If you have a business with a peak time element you would charge more, anyone would. I'd like to see you catch a plane from city centre to city centre.

- In peak hours you will struggle to get a seat unless you hold a reservation. All tickets now sold for inter city trains are sold with a reservation.

- Delays are regular and for all sorts of reasons; signal failure, a broken down train in front, lack of staff...Try using the M1 or A1 at the same time of morning and tell me its any different.

- Commuter trains have too few carriages. Most major commuter routes have had their platforms extended to allow for longer commute trains, 12 car trains are now the norm into most major south east termini.

- Some journey times e.g. Liverpool to Manchester take longer now than 100 years ago. That's because there are more people now who want to catch a train so they have more stops to pick up from, not much point having a train from Donny to London none stop for example.

- £4k a season ticket if you live in the S East; that's out of net income by the way. If you live in the south east and travel into London every day then you should be able to pay for that season ticket, try using a car for the same journey, the parking fees would be more.

- 'Catering' is no better than a Tesco meal deal but costs twice as much. Agreed.

Seriously, we have one of the worst, most underfunded, mismanaged rail networks of any 'top rank' western nation. Still waiting for you to provide some evidence that this is true.

[BigH]

Lets talk about old BR, every man and his dog had a joke and a tale to tell about the efficiency and poor performance of British Rail. badly underfunded, poor rolling stock, badly maintained infrastructure, late and cramped trains very poor catering with poor old BR sandwiches becoming the thing of legend, all performed by management and staff with no accountability for the money that was being spent "its only paper money" was the big mantra.

Hmm, so not much different from what we have now then!

DD, might I politely ask when you last travelled by train. To those of us who have had the misfortune to use them regularly for work could I just flag a couple of points:

- Travel before 10 am and you need to take out another mortgage; it's often cheaper to fly
- In peak hours you will struggle to get a seat unless you hold a reservation
- Delays are regular and for all sorts of reasons; signal failure, a broken down train in front, lack of staff...
- Commuter trains have too few carriages
- Some journey times e.g. Liverpool to Manchester take longer now than 100 years ago
- £4k a season ticket if you live in the S East; that's out of net income by the way
- 'Catering' is no better than a Tesco meal deal but costs twice as much

Seriously, we have one of the worst, most underfunded, mismanaged rail networks of any 'top rank' western nation.

Would you like to provide some evidence for that statement because i would be interested to see you do so.

Well for a start only 20% of trains are running at present.

Rather than send me on a fool’s errand why don’t you reflect on the many and various reasons why that’s the case.

[danumdon]

Lets talk about old BR, every man and his dog had a joke and a tale to tell about the efficiency and poor performance of British Rail. badly underfunded, poor rolling stock, badly maintained infrastructure, late and cramped trains very poor catering with poor old BR sandwiches becoming the thing of legend, all performed by management and staff with no accountability for the money that was being spent "its only paper money" was the big mantra.

Hmm, so not much different from what we have now then!

DD, might I politely ask when you last travelled by train. To those of us who have had the misfortune to use them regularly for work could I just flag a couple of points:

- Travel before 10 am and you need to take out another mortgage; it's often cheaper to fly
- In peak hours you will struggle to get a seat unless you hold a reservation
- Delays are regular and for all sorts of reasons; signal failure, a broken down train in front, lack of staff...
- Commuter trains have too few carriages
- Some journey times e.g. Liverpool to Manchester take longer now than 100 years ago
- £4k a season ticket if you live in the S East; that's out of net income by the way
- 'Catering' is no better than a Tesco meal deal but costs twice as much

Seriously, we have one of the worst, most underfunded, mismanaged rail networks of any 'top rank' western nation.

Would you like to provide some evidence for that statement because i would be interested to see you do so.

Well for a start only 20% of trains are running at present.

Rather than send me on a fool’s errand why don’t you reflect on the many and various reasons why that’s the case.

You made the statement pal, if you can't back it up then there's no reason for me to reflect on anything.

But if you would like to substantiate your statement then i'm all ears.

[SydneyRover]

Back on topic ...........

''UK farmers have savaged the agreement as unfair and complained that Australia’s less strict animal welfare rules put them at a disadvantage''

https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/filthy-and-inhumane-trade-deal-critics-slam-australia-s-decision-to-continue-battery-farming-20220820-p5bbdh.html