Brexit Dividend

[BigH]

Lets talk about old BR, every man and his dog had a joke and a tale to tell about the efficiency and poor performance of British Rail. badly underfunded, poor rolling stock, badly maintained infrastructure, late and cramped trains very poor catering with poor old BR sandwiches becoming the thing of legend, all performed by management and staff with no accountability for the money that was being spent "its only paper money" was the big mantra.

Hmm, so not much different from what we have now then!

DD, might I politely ask when you last travelled by train. To those of us who have had the misfortune to use them regularly for work could I just flag a couple of points:

- Travel before 10 am and you need to take out another mortgage; it's often cheaper to fly
- In peak hours you will struggle to get a seat unless you hold a reservation
- Delays are regular and for all sorts of reasons; signal failure, a broken down train in front, lack of staff...
- Commuter trains have too few carriages
- Some journey times e.g. Liverpool to Manchester take longer now than 100 years ago
- £4k a season ticket if you live in the S East; that's out of net income by the way
- 'Catering' is no better than a Tesco meal deal but costs twice as much

Seriously, we have one of the worst, most underfunded, mismanaged rail networks of any 'top rank' western nation.

Would you like to provide some evidence for that statement because i would be interested to see you do so.

Well for a start only 20% of trains are running at present.

Rather than send me on a fool’s errand why don’t you reflect on the many and various reasons why that’s the case.

You made the statement pal, if you can't back it up then there's no reason for me to reflect on anything.

But if you would like to substantiate your statement then i'm all ears.

Whereas your own diatribe contained little by way of substantiation but never mind...

Perhaps we can agree DD that we're sharing opinions here rather than doctorate theses. I will admit that the UK has a relatively good recent safety record; something like the third safest in Europe over the period since 2010. But that's as far as it goes.

To give you more 'substance' to my opinion:

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2022/08/18/worst-performance-by-uk-rail-since-the-1970s/
https://www.ft.com/content/05fef011-f693-46a2-bfcd-fbdfffe4368d

Happy reading, Pal!

[danumdon]

Lets talk about old BR, every man and his dog had a joke and a tale to tell about the efficiency and poor performance of British Rail. badly underfunded, poor rolling stock, badly maintained infrastructure, late and cramped trains very poor catering with poor old BR sandwiches becoming the thing of legend, all performed by management and staff with no accountability for the money that was being spent "its only paper money" was the big mantra.

Hmm, so not much different from what we have now then!

DD, might I politely ask when you last travelled by train. To those of us who have had the misfortune to use them regularly for work could I just flag a couple of points:

- Travel before 10 am and you need to take out another mortgage; it's often cheaper to fly
- In peak hours you will struggle to get a seat unless you hold a reservation
- Delays are regular and for all sorts of reasons; signal failure, a broken down train in front, lack of staff...
- Commuter trains have too few carriages
- Some journey times e.g. Liverpool to Manchester take longer now than 100 years ago
- £4k a season ticket if you live in the S East; that's out of net income by the way
- 'Catering' is no better than a Tesco meal deal but costs twice as much

Seriously, we have one of the worst, most underfunded, mismanaged rail networks of any 'top rank' western nation.

Would you like to provide some evidence for that statement because i would be interested to see you do so.

Well for a start only 20% of trains are running at present.

Rather than send me on a fool’s errand why don’t you reflect on the many and various reasons why that’s the case.

You made the statement pal, if you can't back it up then there's no reason for me to reflect on anything.

But if you would like to substantiate your statement then i'm all ears.

Whereas your own diatribe contained little by way of substantiation but never mind...

Perhaps we can agree DD that we're sharing opinions here rather than doctorate theses. I will admit that the UK has a relatively good recent safety record; something like the third safest in Europe over the period since 2010. But that's as far as it goes.

To give you more 'substance' to my opinion:

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2022/08/18/worst-performance-by-uk-rail-since-the-1970s/
https://www.ft.com/content/05fef011-f693-46a2-bfcd-fbdfffe4368d

Happy reading, Pal!

So your substance is a headline that quotes worst performance since the 1970's and then explains it was due to events which in all fairness cannot be attributed to the running of a railway, i'm sure Covid and extreme weather had a big say in the "worst performance" of many a road, air or boat business during the time it was prevalent.

The FT piece is a opinion about something which has yet to occur so how this can be portrayed as something bad because the FT says so, with no knowledge or evidence to support it !!

The fact is i agree with your point about our relative opinions but it still galls me to hear the same standard put downs quickly rushed out every time something "sub optimal" happens on the railway.

I work in the industry and have seen the massive changes and challengers that are ever present, no one is saying its a world beater but as a nationwide system of transport it serves this country well, we would all love for everything to be great every day with no issues but we also live in the real world.if it did not exist im sure your daily commute would be very interesting if not also very frustrating and expensive.

At this time all modes of transport are being put through the ringer, i don't know if you are aware or have noticed, but air travel currently is horrendous , the roads are constantly being dug up with many a delay causing massive traffic congestion just about everywhere. Ferry services are being diluted of their qualified and competent staff and being replaced by agency workers who wouldn't know the port or stern of a boat if it hit then in the backside.

Life is tough for everyone just now, modes of transport are having a real hard time alongside all other businesses and industry, people need to be realistic and understanding with problems that require solutions that will take years.

[BigH]

Some good points there DD.

I agree that many of the jibes could apply just as much to other elements of our national infrastructure and utilities. And when I talk of mismanagement, I don't necessarily mean the management of each constituent organisation but management oversight from Government/Regulator downwards.

I detest the way that core infrastructure and utilities have been so heavily politicised in recent years. Yes, privatisation delivered early gains but these have long since been passed over in favour of shareholders and one or two greedy execs as the powers of the Regulators have been eroded. The energy sector being the most recent tragic example.

It's consumers and employees who've often borne the brunt of this imbalance and I think it's time it was redressed.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'll give you an example of privatised services.

I've been to the match today on public transport because I didn't have the car.

I'd normally walk the 3km up the hill from Sheffield city centre to home. But I've a bad back at the moment so I thought I'd get the bus.

They are scheduled to come every 15 mins.

Tonight SIX buses have worked their way up the electronic board, all said to be on time.

Not one of them turned up. Not f**king one.

That's the service that First Bus give to South Yorkshire. And they couldn't give a f**k.

I've mailed a complaint as I have done 7 times before in the past 5 years after similar (admittedly not THIS bad) experiences. I've never received a reply. I don't expect to do this time. Because they can do what the f**k they want and never be held to account. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

I got home 3.5 hours after full time. It's about 15 miles as the crow flies. That's privatised public transport for you.

[drfchound]

I may be wrong here but I think I heard on the news this morning that some bus drivers were going on strike today.
Because I hardly ever use public transport I didn’t pay much attention but perhaps that contributed to no busses running in Sheffield.

[SydneyRover]

On topic

Have just been talking to a bar owner in the Marais about b..... he thinks it's bonkers unsurprisingly.

[tyke1962]

On topic

Have just been talking to a bar owner in the Marais about b..... he thinks it's bonkers unsurprisingly.

Did you tell him Syd you were a Brexit enabler and didn't vote in 2019 to rejoin the EU ? .

[SydneyRover]

On topic

Have just been talking to a bar owner in the Marais about b..... he thinks it's bonkers unsurprisingly.

Did you tell him Syd you were a Brexit enabler and didn't vote in 2019 to rejoin the EU ? .

He said he's read about you and thought you needed help

[danumdon]

I got home 3.5 hours after full time. It's about 15 miles as the crow flies. That's privatised public transport for you.

Did you not consider to add into the equation that the way council budgets were being prioritised and reduced prior to the bus privatisation that there existed a very real possibility that you may have been using shanks's pony from the station to your abode if the private bus service was not available or whisper it quietly maybe having to jump into a taxi?

[selby]

  J P Morgan has drawn up plans to move work from German offices to London due to fear of power outages in the winter months.
  If power cuts occur work will be transferred to other locations.

[selby]

  Over the last twelve months I have noticed as others must have some posters obvious love of opinion poll predictions.  So the complete lack of posting about the far right coalition led by The Brothers of Italy party leading in the current Italian polls significantly in the last polls before the election surprising as it is not good news for the EU.
  Polling 47% with the biggest party on the left way behind on 27% is not a good sign for the left sympathisers and could herald trouble for the EU lovies.
  With Germany at somewhat of an economic crossroads and will as always look after themselves, and France just in it for what they can snaffle out of it, in the opening lines of an old song "there may be trouble ahead".

[SydneyRover]

I would have thought the most important news on the brexit front atm is the second tory PM to be told to stick any trade deal where the sun don't shine until the NI protocol is sorted, but that's just me I guess.

[tommy toes]

Yes, looks like Selby would welcome a neo fascist government in Italy as long as it has the potential to harm the EU.
And yes Syd, Biden has told Truss to do one.
Quite right too.

[selby]

 It will all come down to the individual countries in the EU and who has to pick up the tab lads, what the present crop of luvies politically in charge at the moment say will get less and less notice taken of them as it get's colder over there.

[Herbert Anchovy]

EU Law not a barrier to nationalising UK railways:

https://theconversation.com/renationalising-britains-railways-eu-law-not-a-barrier-96759
https://www.anothereurope.org/lets-be-clear-nationalisation-is-not-against-eu-law/
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2019/11/would-labours-plans-to-nationalise-bt-openreach-be-legal-under-eu-rules-2
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-railways-eu-rules-nationalise-single-market-restrictions-labour-a8968691.html

Anything is a good tune if you are prepared to open your ears to it.

Not quite. The correct headline should read “EU not a barrier to part nationalising Railways”. Most people’s understanding of nationalised railways would be the old BR model where all parts of the system are publicly owned. Currently within EU law this cannot happen. Competition rules dictate that the same organisation, whether public or private, cannot own all parts of the rail system, eg the government couldn’t ‘own’ the tracks and the trains. Some countries have tried to work around this by creating bespoke nationalised firms to own  the track network for example, whilst the government owns the train network, but these have led to heavy fines and additional cost of dismantling the ‘fake’ company.

Theoretically this isn’t a bad idea as it should prevent mass profiting of rail assets, and I do believe that the EU takes a softer approach to countries that can prove this back door method of public ownership works. Also, the EU allows those countries with an already collective national ownership (as we had with BR) the right to continue.

However, to claim that total re-nationalisation of the full rail network and a return to a BR style of public ownership while being members of the EU is possible isn’t accurate.

I’m not saying it’s a good or bad thing either, just stating facts for you to take or leave.

[wilts rover]

I notice that following France's nationalisation of its main energy supplier, Germany announced today it is to nationalise Uniper - its main gas importer.

But you can't nationalise critical industries when in the EU...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's a Brexit dividend.

Brexit is now enabling ex-Ministers to admit they lied about Brexit.

https://mobile.twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1592208294684557312

[tommy toes]

Yes, get a deal on any terms so you can tell the country we've got a great trade deal with Australia, when in truth it's total crap and you know its crap but you stand up in the Commons and say its great.
Duplicitous b**tards

[tommy toes]

Another Brexit dividend...
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1592246165050839040?t=OJFlCuF4zgfjC4ln7XrYjQ&s=19

[SydneyRover]

Those denying the harm brexit has done to the economy will be able to meet in a phone box soon.

[wilts rover]

Those denying the harm brexit has done to the economy will be able to meet in a phone box soon.

Looks like it:

In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?

Right to Leave: 32% (-3)
Wrong to Leave: 56% (+4)

Via @YouGov, 9-10 Nov.
Changes w/ 1-2 Nov.

https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1592925035739877376

[scawsby steve]

Those denying the harm brexit has done to the economy will be able to meet in a phone box soon.

Which makes it all the more strange then, that your man, Keith, isn't going to apply to re-join the EU, and insists it's time we all move on from Brexit.

You really should start listening to him.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS.

You won. Why can't you just revel in the fact that we became the country you wanted us to be? Why always this needling?

[scawsby steve]

SS.

You won. Why can't you just revel in the fact that we became the country you wanted us to be? Why always this needling?

BST, I never had you down as one to struggle with semantics. People on here keep quoting stats and polls that say we're worse off because of Brexit, and most people think it was a mistake; and you say I'm needling?

What part of Starmer saying we should all move on are you not getting?

I'll do a deal with you. If all the Remainers keep off this thread, and just let it drop, I'll do the same.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS

Quoting stats that show that the UK is doing worse than any other G7 nation isn't needling. It's stating facts. Do you prefer to stay in blissful ignorance of the facts?

People who said Brexit would be damaging to the UK economy have an absolute right to point out that the post-Brexit economy is doing very poorly. In fact they have a duty to say it. That's kind of how democratic politics is meant to work.

If you have other evidence that things are going fine, you're free to share it. Tell us why Brexit is a success.

Regarding Starmer, he's playing realpolitik. I don't like it, but I understand it. The one and only chance the Tories have in 2024 is to keep the fault line of Brexit live. Starmer has to neutralise that.

We aren't going to rejoin the EU any time soon. So why give the Tories a free hit and let them appeal to people like you who want to cling to their Brexit?

We WILL rejoin. One day. But things will have to get a lot worse before we do. And enough people on the Leave side will have to grit their teeth and accept that they f**ked up and bought a lie. It'll happen, but not for at least ten years. So Starmer would be an idiot to push it now.

Meantime, it's still perfectly fair to point out that things ain't going well. One day even you might have to accept that.

[scawsby steve]

SS

Quoting stats that show that the UK is doing worse than any other G7 nation isn't needling. It's stating facts. Do you prefer to stay in blissful ignorance of the facts?

People who said Brexit would be damaging to the UK economy have an absolute right to point out that the post-Brexit economy is doing very poorly. In fact they have a duty to say it. That's kind of how democratic politics is meant to work.

If you have other evidence that things are going fine, you're free to share it. Tell us why Brexit is a success.

Regarding Starmer, he's playing realpolitik. I don't like it, but I understand it. The one and only chance the Tories have in 2024 is to keep the fault line of Brexit live. Starmer has to neutralise that.

We aren't going to rejoin the EU any time soon. So why give the Tories a free hit and let them appeal to people like you who want to cling to their Brexit?

We WILL rejoin. One day. But things will have to get a lot worse before we do. And enough people on the Leave side will have to grit their teeth and accept that they f**ked up and bought a lie. It'll happen, but not for at least ten years. So Starmer would be an idiot to push it now.

Meantime, it's still perfectly fair to point out that things ain't going well. One day even you might have to accept that.

I'll take that as a no to my deal then.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Of course I'm not taking that deal.

Anyone who genuinely cares about the future of this country should always be prepared to look at the consequences of the decisions we make.

Do you think we should just close our eyes and ears to the issue?

[SydneyRover]

SS.

You won. Why can't you just revel in the fact that we became the country you wanted us to be? Why always this needling?

BST, I never had you down as one to struggle with semantics. People on here keep quoting stats and polls that say we're worse off because of Brexit, and most people think it was a mistake; and you say I'm needling?

What part of Starmer saying we should all move on are you not getting?

I'll do a deal with you. If all the Remainers keep off this thread, and just let it drop, I'll do the same.

I'll put it in a way that will make it easier for you to understand Steve

''Brexit will leave workers poorer than they would have been and has damaged Britain's competitiveness, new study says

The findings go on to say leaving the EU has pushed up the cost of living, seen investment fall and the UK lose market share in key areas''

''The report, in collaboration with the London School of Economics, said this was all as a result of a "depreciation-driven inflation spike" following Brexit''

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-will-leave-workers-poorer-than-they-would-have-been-and-has-damaged-britains-competitiveness-new-study-says-12638190

You are in good company Steve our numbers man on here refuses to accept it as does sunak.

[wilts rover]

SS.

You won. Why can't you just revel in the fact that we became the country you wanted us to be? Why always this needling?

BST, I never had you down as one to struggle with semantics. People on here keep quoting stats and polls that say we're worse off because of Brexit, and most people think it was a mistake; and you say I'm needling?

What part of Starmer saying we should all move on are you not getting?

I'll do a deal with you. If all the Remainers keep off this thread, and just let it drop, I'll do the same.

People are quite free to share stats and polls as to how much better off we are after Brexit, Steve - away you go.

Here's one from that well known Brexit supporting rag, the Daily Express to start you off:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1696839/Brexit-costs-business-Cheshire-Cheese-Company-sold