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BBC a series maps show how changes have occurred over time.https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54116567The borders cannot be reset to pre 1917 times, but what should be recognised is who had control of the land and how it changed, who was involved and I think bears responsibility and therefore should make every effort to bring about a resolution.
Iran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?
Quote from: River Don on October 08, 2023, 10:54:22 pmIran is the key Allie of Russia. Iran is also the key supporter of Hamas.Am I being too much of a conspiracy theorist to wonder if this isn't a way to distract the West attention from Ukraine, or just to expand the conflict?Nope and BST said the same. History would tell us what the linkage of these events often means. Where does it stop or end?
Well just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!
Iran has another reason to instigate this now. Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia was edging towards a peace with Israel. This action pulls that apart.
Quote from: River Don on October 08, 2023, 11:41:52 pmIran has another reason to instigate this now. Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia was edging towards a peace with Israel. This action pulls that apart.And round and around we go. The sooner the world ends its reliance on oil, the sooner we can find something else to fight about.
The Daily Mail is claiming tonight that Iran is behind this attack.
Quote from: ncRover on October 08, 2023, 06:21:02 pmThere’s problems on both sides.But you seem to be an apologist for these recent terrorist actions from Hamas such as the one at the music festival and other evil crimes against civilians. I think that’s a bit sick.Did UK civilians who have died at the hands of Islamist extremists have it coming for the actions of Bush and Blair destabilising the Middle East and giving rise to ISIS?If shit was to hit the fan in areas where Israelis and Palestinians hypothetically lived together (something that propaganda and disinformation could easily whip up), who would hold more power - 2 million Palestinian civilians or 30,000 armed Hamas fighters? Likewise for the Israeli defence forces and right-wing militant factions?Both sides want to destroy each other.I’m not clued up on the historical context of the land I’ll be honest but I’m just looking at the here and now, the right and wrong and possible unintended consequences.I don't know what happened at the music festival. Holding it nearby Gaza is a bit daft. I can't see I'm being an apologist, can't you point out where? I detest war and violence, but see how it happens, and see how people in power can avert it in almost all cases. Many people in power, Israel being the prime examle, breed conflict. They are one of the most evil governments on the planet, and have been since their very earliest beginings. Even more evil are their sponsors worldwide, including how they weaponise antisemitism, zionism, Judaism - hypocrisy, obviously.How many UK citizens died as a result of ISIS? Yes, Bush and Blair - though in reality it was clearly the people that pulled their strings - willingly created carnage and destruction. And the UK and US do that endlessly worldwide. A UK or US citizen travelling anywhere has the results of that coming at them - it's just how the world works. How are you thinking differently? Moreso the UK citizen who was in the IDF - job description.Your hypothetical scenario is making a lot of assumptions, most of which wouldn't be there if that happened. What you say gives support to the Israeli hold on the situation which is racist and worse.There are lots of positive projects in Israel and the Palestinian territories where Jews and Moslems, and Christians, and Israelis, and Palestinians are brought together in positive ways. This is what happened in Ireland too. It can be done. It won't be easy. First major stage is to halt the insane facist Zionists who are to this day being given permission to illegally take Palestinian land. Then, all land taken in the West Bank should be returned, and those who perpetrated the crimes be punished. However, that won't happen because these mental extreme Zionists hold power, and the US won't dare interfer. So we have this, deaths at music festivals, thousands of Palestinians murdered in what is genocide.One theory I have heard, may or may not be true, is Israel powers knew about the plans of Hamas and let it happen just so they could get stuck in and try to destroy them. They won't ever destroy them, but some in the government will up their falling ratings, including arch facist Netanyahu.I'll keep saying it too, and it is totally on topic here - Starmer supports these psychos. he is the same proven in his lockdown on free speech, and his inability, or deliberate perversity, and bowing to his Zionist paymasters, to not distinguish between antisemitism and anti Israel. That's not even to mention that Palestinians are Semites by definition. "Human Rights Lawyer" - he's twisted beyond Orwellian proportions.
There’s problems on both sides.But you seem to be an apologist for these recent terrorist actions from Hamas such as the one at the music festival and other evil crimes against civilians. I think that’s a bit sick.Did UK civilians who have died at the hands of Islamist extremists have it coming for the actions of Bush and Blair destabilising the Middle East and giving rise to ISIS?If shit was to hit the fan in areas where Israelis and Palestinians hypothetically lived together (something that propaganda and disinformation could easily whip up), who would hold more power - 2 million Palestinian civilians or 30,000 armed Hamas fighters? Likewise for the Israeli defence forces and right-wing militant factions?Both sides want to destroy each other.I’m not clued up on the historical context of the land I’ll be honest but I’m just looking at the here and now, the right and wrong and possible unintended consequences.
Quote from: Sprotyrover on October 08, 2023, 11:30:03 pmWell just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.
Quote from: glosterred on October 08, 2023, 09:54:33 pmNoGlad to hear it So what are you arguing for? A continuation of the current power structure? Or an attack on Gaza as is being proposed - which will inevitably extend to the West Bank and Lebanon - to wipe out the militants? Or.... ?
Quote from: SydneyRover on October 08, 2023, 11:37:47 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on October 08, 2023, 11:30:03 pmWell just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.Exactly, you cage an animal for years, starving it, not giving it enough water and poking it with a sharp stick it's going to get f**kin mad and bite back.
And at root it's all down to us. The Balfour Declaration started all this. 1926. Almost 100 years of conflict now. BobG
Quote from: tommy toes on October 08, 2023, 08:09:46 pmHound.You campaign for the Party.Leaders come and go but the beliefs and values remain broadly the same. Even you should realise that. Unless you're stirring the pot again as per.No Tommy, I’m astonished that he could support Corbyn so vehemently, to the point where had Labour won, Corbyn would have been PM.That is a fact.In recent times he has denounced him so much that you would think he (Corbyn) is the devil.God knows where we would be now had Labour won and Corbyn had been in charge.The change in opinion is astonishing.Yes you campaign for the Party but if the Party wins you know who is going to be in charge.I’m sure you will agree.
Hound.You campaign for the Party.Leaders come and go but the beliefs and values remain broadly the same. Even you should realise that. Unless you're stirring the pot again as per.
Quote from: Nudga on October 09, 2023, 07:36:50 amQuote from: SydneyRover on October 08, 2023, 11:37:47 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on October 08, 2023, 11:30:03 pmWell just been having a thought or two, If the Palestinians had attacked military targets only and there were plenty, they would have had my full support, but what they have done is unconscionable and I am afraid they deserve all they will get!That's not how guerrilla wars are fought and as Palestinians (backed by Iran and others) are effectively prisoners in their own country and Israel is backed by the US (and others) how else can they determine their own future? This is not to excuse what has happened but trying to explain why.Exactly, you cage an animal for years, starving it, not giving it enough water and poking it with a sharp stick it's going to get f**kin mad and bite back.On May 14, 1948, the day Israel declared its independence, the following countries declared war on Israel: Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq.
I read last night that the Labour hierarchy have banned anyone within it's ranks from referring to Israel as an apartheid state .Which is strange seen as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch describe it in such terms , if caging 2.5m people in an area the size of Barnsley , denying them a voice , human rights suppressing and genocide , removing water and electricity isn't apartheid then you have to wonder what is .