Piss off Germany

[Filo]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/15/eurozone-crisis-britain-germany-tension

Tensions between Germany and Britain over how to handle the crisis in the eurozone deepened after allies of the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, claimed she would not allow the UK to \"get away\" with its refusal to back a European financial transactions tax.

Speaking before a meeting between Merkel and David Cameron on Friday, the parliamentary leader of her Christian Democratic Union said: \"Britain had a responsibility to make Europe a success.\"

Volker Kauder, at the CDU conference in Leipzig, said: \"I can understand that the British don't want that [a transactions tax] when they generate almost 30% of their gross domestic product from financial-market business in the City of London. Only going after their own benefit and refusing to contribute is not the message we're letting the British get away with.\"

Sort your own problems out you German t**ts, you wanted the Euro, you pay for it! :angry:

[not on facebook]

dankershan

bittershan

[The Red Baron]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/nov/15/eurozone-crisis-britain-germany-tension

Tensions between Germany and Britain over how to handle the crisis in the eurozone deepened after allies of the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, claimed she would not allow the UK to \"get away\" with its refusal to back a European financial transactions tax.

Speaking before a meeting between Merkel and David Cameron on Friday, the parliamentary leader of her Christian Democratic Union said: \"Britain had a responsibility to make Europe a success.\"

Volker Kauder, at the CDU conference in Leipzig, said: \"I can understand that the British don't want that [a transactions tax] when they generate almost 30% of their gross domestic product from financial-market business in the City of London. Only going after their own benefit and refusing to contribute is not the message we're letting the British get away with.\"

Sort your own problems out you German t**ts, you wanted the Euro, you pay for it! :angry:

Unfortunately I think the Financial Transactions tax will come in, whether we like it or not. Cameron won't sign up to it of course (he knows it would be political suicide if he did) but the EU has ways of getting these things introduced. Remember John Major's \"Red Lines\" after Maastricht and how those were eroded?

Cameron should tell Merkel that if there is any attempt to bring this in, either through Qualified Majority Voting or via some other legislative chicanery then he will call an immediate referendum on Britain's EU membership. But he won't because he's spectacularly weak- no weaker than any of our other so-called \"leaders,\" but weak nonetheless.

So that'll be 40 billion euros (and probably half a million British jobs lost) to bail out a currency we didn't join. Now I know why they call it the \"Robin Hood Tax!\"

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is hard politicking going on.

It is very, very much in our interests for the Euro crisis to be resolved quickly. If it isn't, Europe (including us) is heading for a God Almighty catastrophe that will make the last 4 years look like heaven. We do 50% of our trade with Europe, and if the Euro goes down, we'll have 5 million on the dole and a Depression the like of which no-one has seen since the 1880s,

So of course we have to play our own part in paying for the Euro to survive. It's looking after our own interests. And that MUST mean that we pay more. And also that a damper is put on the ridiculous market speculation that has been going on over the last year (much of it from London, where the usual suspects are coining it in once again...).

That said, Germany is the key to this problem. They have benefited from having customers in the countries that are now basket cases. Germany's export economy would not have been so vibrant if Italians, Greek, Irish, Spaniards etc hadn't been buying their Audis and Bosch's.

And the Euro has been kept artificially weak by the weakness of the struggling countries. If the Euro had not existed, and Germany had had a strong DeutschMark for the last decade, their exports would have been uncompetitive in the world economy and they too would have struggled. So it's time for them to man up and face the consequences.

There is one plain and simple way out of this catastrophe - Germany has to allow the ECB constitution to change and allow it to become the lender of last resort to the rest of the EuroZone. That will push up German inflation and erode the value of German savings, but that's tough. It is far, far less of a problem than the alternative.

So, Germany knows that it has to have a hard decade ahead. And, quite understandably, they are not prepared to take all the pain and simply allow Britain to reap the rewards. Which is why they are (quite rightly) insisting that we shoulder some of the burden now for the benefit that we will gain by helping the EuroZone avoid meltdown.

That's called \"politics\". It's hard, unremitting and it offers no easy outlet.

Cameron is in an appalling situation. He knows that it is in Britain's interests to dig deep and take some of the cost now in return for a stronger future. But he has a party of rabid anti-Europeans many of whom would like nothing more than to see the Euro collapse, for ideological reasons.

So, he either appeases them, stands on the sideline, watches the Euro burn, and condemns all of us to a horrific decade. Or he does the difficult, right thing and commits political suicide. Good luck to him.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The difficulty for Cameron is that he has no way of winning.  The people of the UK on the whole aren't pro europe and we never really will be I don't think.  He has kind of backed himself into a corner, Merkel wants changes to the Lisbon treaty and if that happens Cameron has already said we have to have a referendum, in fact I believe he's made it law.  His problem is whether it's a good deal or not I think there are too many people who see all the negatives in Europe.  Hell I'm pretty sceptical about a lot of Europe but sometimes we must put up with things we don't like to get other benefits.

I wouldn't want us anywhere near the Euro and I feel we are too intertwined with Europe but the alternative at the moment is not better.  Problem is I cannot see any change to a Euro treaty that required this referendum getting anywhere near getting passed and Merkel's comments will probably just piss off a lot of Brits even more who are of the thought that Germany wants a lot of cake without paying for the ingredients and giving some cake to it's poorer friends.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Germany is going to pay ball-crushingly high costs one way or another. They either accept the ECB becoming a de facto national bank for the Euro, with consequent inflation eroding German thrift, or the Euro collapses and Germany is left picking up the debt anyway.

We in this country would do well to realise that. Instead of this ridiculous attitude that Germany is somehow going to come out of this scot-free while the rest of us stump up. Germany realises that it has no easy out and that it has to make decisions harder than any since the War. They are quite rightly making sure that others (like us) take on some of the burden too, rather than just reap the rewards.

I despair at the level of debate in this country. If we were to have an EU referendum tomorrow, we would undoubtedly vote to leave the EU. And that would be an unmitigated catastrophe because it would be the rock that starts the landslide of the collapse of the EU. We have been fed a diet by the right wing press for decades on the evilness of everyone over the Channel, and we're left totally unable to see that we are geographically and economically inseparable from Europe. We think we can sit on the sidelines hurling insults and chuckling while Europe collapses, then dust ourselves down and wander off into a bright new future. It is b*llocks. If the Euro and the EU go down, we'll be on our knees until my 3 year old is an adult.

If we're lucky...

[Filo]

David Cameron makes Neville Chamberlain look like a giant.

Cameron's real vocation should be a bit player in the 'Office'.

He would still get paid for being an idiot but he would be making people laugh instead of weeping tears at what he is doing to the country.

Perhaps Ricky Gervais could get him a part in the new series about dwarves?

A more useful role for MI5 and MI6 would be to find out what exactly are the euronazies' plans for Britain. Get the documents and put them on show.

That would be better than stirring up revolutions in North Africa.

Merkel danced her way through all the machinations of the old East German regime to get to where she is now and if David thinks he can get the better than her because he went to Eton he's got another thing coming.

He's not talking to fellow public schoolboys in the Dims or Liebour, he's in the deep end now and he will take us all down with him if nothing is done to stop him.

And all this shortly after Armistice Day.

They have no shame

[The Red Baron]

There is one plain and simple way out of this catastrophe - Germany has to allow the ECB constitution to change and allow it to become the lender of last resort to the rest of the EuroZone. That will push up German inflation and erode the value of German savings, but that's tough. It is far, far less of a problem than the alternative.

So, Germany knows that it has to have a hard decade ahead. And, quite understandably, they are not prepared to take all the pain and simply allow Britain to reap the rewards. Which is why they are (quite rightly) insisting that we shoulder some of the burden now for the benefit that we will gain by helping the EuroZone avoid meltdown.

That's called \"politics\". It's hard, unremitting and it offers no easy outlet.

Cameron is in an appalling situation. He knows that it is in Britain's interests to dig deep and take some of the cost now in return for a stronger future. But he has a party of rabid anti-Europeans many of whom would like nothing more than to see the Euro collapse, for ideological reasons.

So, he either appeases them, stands on the sideline, watches the Euro burn, and condemns all of us to a horrific decade. Or he does the difficult, right thing and commits political suicide. Good luck to him.

There are two big problems with this. Firstly, the Germans are terrified of the effects of rampant inflation- with good cause as they know what the post-WW1 inflation led to. Secondly, even those in Britain who are not \"rabid Eurosceptics\" would take some convincing that we should contribute a very substantial sum to bail out a currency that we decided not to join.

I agree that it wouldn't be in our interests for the Euro to collapse, but then neither is closer European integration in our interests. My own view is that there should have been an acceptance that countries like Greece, Ireland and Portugal did not really have a place in the Euro and organised some kind of orderly \"default and decouple\" for them. However, the time for that has passed and ironically the banks have now had to take a bigger \"haircut\" than they would have done had that strategy been adopted by the Germans and the ECB 18 months or so ago.

EDIT- never thought I'd heard you offering sympathy to Cameron, although I agree his position is not an enviable one (neither is Merkel's). However he doesn't give me the confidence that he will do the right thing. He is probably the most able of the current main party leaders- which is something that should deeply concern all of us!

[Filo]

The Germans lent the PIIGS money so that they could buy Mercs, BMWs and fancy fountain pens.  The German economy boomed and made them all very rich - interest on the loans and a lovely trade surplus giving them a win-win situation.  Now the PIIGs can no longer pay the loans and they have no money to buy those lovely German goods.  Now Germany says the UK has a duty to help bail the PIIGs out, in other words, give them British money so they can repay their German loans and once again buy big beamers.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB.

I didn't say I had sympathy for Cameron. He's made a rod for his own back by pandering to Eurosceptic attitudes. He then compounded that by failing to win a majority in the most helpful circumstances he could have wished for in 2010. He's painted himself into a nightmarish corner and is now facing the consequences. I have no sympathy for him whatsoever. I am just hoping fervently that he manages to find a way out of it that doesn't screw up Europe, and us with it for the next generation.

[The Red Baron]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8900799/Britain-will-join-euro-before-long-says-German-finance-minister.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/8900257/Angela-Merkel-holds-firm-on-plan-for-financial-tax-despite-British-fears.html

I do sometimes wonder whether a number of German politicians quite like the idea of Britain leaving the EU. These kind of provocative statements will only stoke up Eurosceptic sentiment here.

After all, an EU without the recalcitrant British would soon fall prey to German domination (especially with France in a weakened state.) Maybe that was the plan behind the Euro all along.

[Filo]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8900799/Britain-will-join-euro-before-long-says-German-finance-minister.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/8900257/Angela-Merkel-holds-firm-on-plan-for-financial-tax-despite-British-fears.html

I do sometimes wonder whether a number of German politicians quite like the idea of Britain leaving the EU. These kind of provocative statements will only stoke up Eurosceptic sentiment here.

After all, an EU without the recalcitrant British would soon fall prey to German domination (especially with France in a weakened state.) Maybe that was the plan behind the Euro all along.

I think that`s exactly what they want, they and the rest of the Eurozone are not in a position to start dictating to us! German domination of Europe by stealth and not by war is what is slowly happening here!


The sooner we have a referendum on Europe the better, the British public do not want to be ruled by a European super state, a vote to get out would win by a landslide!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Christ Almighty, I despair.

We are obsessed in the country with our vision of Germany's plans for European dominance. But one of the key reasons why the Common Market started in the first place was that Germany wanted to tie itself into a collaborative club of nations and to make its own prosperity intimately tied in with the success of other countries in Europe. It was Germany's and France's own far-sighted politicians who drove this process in order to ensure that this whole concept of one country dominating the continent could be put to bed forever.

This thinking has utterly by-passed the majority of Brits. Our vision of Germany still consists of pickelhaubers, Panzers and secret plans for Europeans domination. It's about time we f**king well grew up.

What is going on between Merkel and Cameron is classic big-scale politics. Both know that it would be a catastrophe if Britain left the EU and to suggest that Germany secretly wants us out is ridiculous. What is happening is that Merkel is negotiating hard. Just as you might expect her to do if you stop and think about it.

What do you expect her to do, say to Cameron, \"Aye, OK Dave. I realise that you've painted yourself into a tricky corner by your naive pandering to your own Tory right, so I'll tell you what - I'll go easy on you. We'll pick up the tab for the whole Euro problem and you lot can just help yourselves to the export markets as the EuroZone starts to recover. Deal?\"

Or do you expect her to say, \"Yes you're not in the Euro, but you know as well as I do that it is in your interests for us to find a solution here. So, we expect you Brits to dig deep and take some of the hit. You'll get your reward in the future when the EuroZone is more stable, but it's jam tomorrow and payment today. You're a big boy. You're in charge of a modern, intelligent country. Go find a way to make it swing at home. Because if you don't and the Euro goes tits up, you and your country are f**ked.\"

That's politics.

[The Red Baron]

I am not suggesting that some German politicians have some kind of long term strategy for European dominance, with or without Britain. I agree with the point you made, that the EU was originally about preventing one country from becoming dominant in Europe and that is how it worked for many years. The Euro has totally changed the rules of the game, as many people (and I count myself as one) who were fiercely opposed to the single currency predicted it would.

For one thing, the Euro has fatally weakened France to the point that Sarkozy can do nothing without the agreement of the Germans. Before, there was always a sense that the French President was just as big a player as the German Chancellor: not any more, although no-one in France will admit such a thing.

Britain could potentially be a very powerful ally for Germany, but there's no chance of that because the prevailing view in both countries is almost diametrically opposed in terms of visions for Europe. The Germans favour a more integrated Europe (in which they are consistent) but many in Britain would prefer to see a looser arrangement based on trade.

[The Red Baron]

Or do you expect her to say, \"Yes you're not in the Euro, but you know as well as I do that it is in your interests for us to find a solution here. So, we expect you Brits to dig deep and take some of the hit. You'll get your reward in the future when the EuroZone is more stable, but it's jam tomorrow and payment today. You're a big boy. You're in charge of a modern, intelligent country. Go find a way to make it swing at home. Because if you don't and the Euro goes tits up, you and your country are f**ked.\"

If Merkel believes any British politician could sell that kind of argument then she's living in cloud-cuckoo land.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Unfortunately I think the Financial Transactions tax will come in, whether we like it or not. Cameron won't sign up to it of course (he knows it would be political suicide if he did) but the EU has ways of getting these things introduced. Remember John Major's \"Red Lines\" after Maastricht and how those were eroded?

The EU has no power whatsoever to force a member country to introduce any tax except for the requirement of VAT as a prerequisite to membership. If you know of the EU having got one introduced before, I'd love to hear about it.