Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: Filo on February 04, 2017, 05:24:11 pm
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Their 12th man. Today, let them kick lumps out of us and go unpunished then book Rovers players for nothing, awful reffering!
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So what? We weren't good enough today, move on.
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So Filo's opinion about the ref is irrelevant because the team didn't play well?
Interesting logic.
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The lino on the west stand side was no better. How he didn't see the handball by their number 11 is beyond me
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Did not with their blatant time wasting.
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OP either deliberately or by chance constructed post that sounds like Donald Trump.
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Ref got most things right, I thought. Very combative game, Marquis gave as good as he got.
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The lino on the west stand side was no better. How he didn't see the handball by their number 11 is beyond me
Or the kick out at Marquis right under his nose
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Blatant time wasting from word GO, keeper warned after three miutes. Officials utter trash. They came to stop Donny playing and interestingly when two of their players collided in attempting to flatten Marquis, he got pulled by the ref and warned.
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Blatant time wasting, they were wasting time in the warm up
COYR
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What are you lot expecting at this point? Every team bar Portsmouth has done it to us this season.
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I don't often criticise officials but today they were terrible. Probably worst I've seen.
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I thought the ref was poor and I would love to know if the Lino on the East stand side has ever heard of the offside rule!
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The east Lino must have seen the (two hands ) handball by number 11 and the petulant kick on Marquis.
The offsides were poor but what about that long ball in the first half that curled out of play and back in agiain?
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The east Lino must have seen the (two hands ) handball by number 11 and the petulant kick on Marquis.
The offsides were poor but what about that long ball in the first half that curled out of play and back in agiain?
If the East stand lino saw it, it makes the West stand lino look really bad seeing as it was right under his nose
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Apart from allowing blatent time wasting, missing a blatent penalty and missing a blatent kick out at Marquis, he did alright I suppose
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The east Lino must have seen the (two hands ) handball by number 11 and the petulant kick on Marquis.
The offsides were poor but what about that long ball in the first half that curled out of play and back in agiain?
If the East stand lino saw it, it makes the West stand lino look really bad seeing as it was right under his nose
Lol, of course, my compass was broken today Filo.
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Too easy to moan about the ref when your teams put in a below par performance. Did he ref have a bearing on the result? No. That's all that concerns me.
No one will mention the corner we got that clearly wasn't in the SW corner.
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I saw it Copps and mentioned it at the time, the linesman got that wrong too.
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The east Lino must have seen the (two hands ) handball by number 11 and the petulant kick on Marquis.
The offsides were poor but what about that long ball in the first half that curled out of play and back in agiain?
If the East stand lino saw it, it makes the West stand lino look really bad seeing as it was right under his nose
Lol, of course, my compass was broken today Filo.
He wasn't even looking at the ball . Had his back to it running towards the corner flag
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Too easy to moan about the ref when your teams put in a below par performance. Did he ref have a bearing on the result? No. That's all that concerns me.
No one will mention the corner we got that clearly wasn't in the SW corner.
Forgot that, another one they got wrong.
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Too easy to moan about the ref when your teams put in a below par performance. Did he ref have a bearing on the result? No. That's all that concerns me.
No one will mention the corner we got that clearly wasn't in the SW corner.
The two are not mutually exclusive though. The ref and his linesman were rubbish today, really poor throughout for so many reasons. No it didn't affect the result but it's still worth pointing out.
I don't even think we played badly today, just didn't get going in the first half. After the break we did everything but score a 2nd goal, were quite unlucky and up against a Morecambe team that defended very, very well.
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We weren't at our imperious best but we were far from bad too.
Morecambe were penned in for most of the second half but defended well enough to stop us creating clear chances.
The number 11 was their Marquis.
Great finish for our goal and JM almost got the winner with that twenty yarder that just missed the top corner.
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If we'd have won 2-1 the officials will still have been terrible.
Their manager even told the lad who kicked marquis to calm down,
When our players complained about their goalie time wasting, the ref pointed to our goalie as if to suggest our goalie was also timewasting.
Which tells you everything you need to know
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Yes Hound...bas**rd Kevin Ellison came to haunt us again, you see him in a team and the rest are as bad. A good player in his time with Chester in particular... Just so glad he did not score, but there again on officials. kicking ball away and continue to run with the ball and shhoot well after the whistle and get no punishment, hardly makes it a fair competition, as I saw first Donny booking the player turned to run, for the ball I may add then two or three paces later ran into Rovers player who got booked, I may add yous after they had clogged us down field. Oh I do miss those days, playing soccer with rugby boots of..
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Bally how he stopped on pitch amazes me
Had numerous kick outs at our players mardy tw*t
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Apart from allowing blatent time wasting, missing a blatent penalty and missing a blatent kick out at Marquis, he did alright I suppose
Have to agree with all above, we weren't at our best but the ref didn't affect he result. Yrs we all saw yhekick on Marquis but no one has mentoned Marquis elbow just before the kick, 6 of one half a dozen of the other.
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Didn't think we played too badly but defensively we looked unusually suspect at the back first half, they had a game plan & did it well, first half playing high up the pitch stopping us playing out from the back. Second half they packed the defence & we couldn't really get a head of steam up, when we did they defended well.
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Too easy to moan about the ref when your teams put in a below par performance. Did he ref have a bearing on the result? No. That's all that concerns me.
No one will mention the corner we got that clearly wasn't in the SW corner.
I wouldn't say he cost us a win but he didn't help. Missed numerous fouls, particularly one on Marquis from which they broke dangerously.
Although that Muppet with the flag on the West Stand side was something else. How did he miss that blatant handball and the kick out at Marquis?
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Too easy to moan about the ref when your teams put in a below par performance. Did he ref have a bearing on the result? No. That's all that concerns me.
No one will mention the corner we got that clearly wasn't in the SW corner.
Although that Muppet with the flag on the West Stand side was something else. How did he miss that blatant handball and the kick out at Marquis?
He probably did not miss them but was doing the same as those Muppets behind the goal in Euro games - nothing constructive
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I don't often criticise officials but today they were terrible. Probably worst I've seen.
On the other hand I usually criticise the Officals and today they were terrible. This one was the worst I have seen since he last Reffed us v Bury
Muppetry of the highest order
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Too easy to moan about the ref when your teams put in a below par performance. Did he ref have a bearing on the result? No. That's all that concerns me.
No one will mention the corner we got that clearly wasn't in the SW corner.
Sorry but I have to disagree...
Yes, we were not at our best, crossing was below par as was shooting, but we created plenty of chances.
Of course the referee had a bearing on the result!! A blatant handball by Ellison, for a penalty at 1-1 missed. OK no guarantee we would have scored but even so.. 5 minutes later their no 5 kicks out at Marquis - soft, but a straight red in this day and age. Both incidents right in front of the west stand lino..
Both had a bearing, as did the numerous non bookings which must have affected Morecambe's play.. They pushed the boundaries and the ref let them!!
As for that corner you refer to, it looked like the ball rolled off their defender's toes to me..
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I think you may need to calm down a bit, reflect a little and, watch some replays or something.
Every single thing you've said there is wrong. The ball hit his hand but it wasn't an intentional handball. The guy who 'kicked out' at Marquis happened to be 2 yards away from him at the time :lol: :lol: and it was an ironic act of petulance. The corner, as others have pointed out, wasn't a corner.
Morecambe did well to stop us playing, especially in the 1st half. Like Fergie said, give them some credit, stop blaming the ref, and move on to the next game.
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Sorry we are going to have to agree to disagree.
I know we were below par today - we would possibly have missed the penalty anyway, but I disagree with your view on the decision. Also that kick at Marquis looked a lot closer to me. Also isn't the rule "kick or attempt to kick"? The emphasis being on "attempt"..
We aren't going to win every game, being top if the league doesn't give us that right at all. We have to work hard for the points, and we weren't quite there today.
Do you not agree that Morecambe's playing style may have been different had the referee clamped down on the fouls and time wasting?
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I also have to disagree about "the kick" CiM.
Although it was minimal there certainly was contact.
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I could see the entire west stand in between the defender's leg and John Marquis.
Does big John strike you as the type of guy to get kicked and just walk off? :lol:
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Actually, yes.
He is good at not responding.
The kick definitely made contact though mate.
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Ref got most things right, I thought. Very combative game, Marquis gave as good as he got.
Ref got lots wrong in my opinion, along with inept linesman in West Stand side.
How did the kick on Marquis go unpunished?
Poor officials this season.
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Penalties for handball are hardly ever intentional, if you put your hands in the air and it hits them it's a penalty
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Have to agree the Ref could have altered the result for sure - for most of the reasons given already
Have not seen any mention either of the "offside" goal by Marquis - was it offside or not ?
Ellison did have both hands up in (what they now call) an unnatural position - Penalty for sure which we may have scored.
Muppet Ref did one thing right - lecturing their Keeper after 15 mins or so for time wasting - and then errrr that was that end of story / let him take the p*** for the rest of the time and WHEN are we going to go back to taking goal kicks from the side th ball went out. It was never difficult to decide which side a Goal kick should be taken ..... and WHEN 2 ... are we going to tell the opposition that if any of their Players are injured and the Ref plays on and then they kick it out WE are going to keep the ball when we restart play ?
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if you put your hands in the air and it hits them it's a penalty
Simply not true. The position of your hands has no bearing on whether its an infringement. The infringement is whether the referee judges it to be intentional. And to make that decision he takes into account the relative distance and position between the last play of the ball and the players hand.
Technically your hands are in the air 99% of the time. How could the rules be any other way? By 'in the air' you actually mean rougly head height or above. How would they implement that? There was a perfect example of it earlier (may have been later can't remember) near the East stand where the ball was handled but it clearly wasn't a handball.
Don't get me wrong, I think irrationally about these things just as much as the next person. I was screaming penalty in the ground. But couple of hours later I calm down.
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I think you may need to calm down a bit, reflect a little and, watch some replays or something.
Every single thing you've said there is wrong. The ball hit his hand but it wasn't an intentional handball. The guy who 'kicked out' at Marquis happened to be 2 yards away from him at the time :lol: :lol: and it was an ironic act of petulance. The corner, as others have pointed out, wasn't a corner.
Morecambe did well to stop us playing, especially in the 1st half. Like Fergie said, give them some credit, stop blaming the ref, and move on to the next game.
Wasn't there today due to work however thats irrelevant its the intent that counts he kicked out the intent is there.
You see the name Illderton and you know the chances are he'll be crap
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True. But I think this incident has to be seen to be believed. I hope there's a clip. It was kind of comical.
As I said, refs are refs, as long as the two most important factors determining the outcome are the performances of either team (as it was today), I don't care.
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Tony Coleman lashed out in frustration in a game against Colchester in 1967.
He was nowhere near their player but was rightly sent off.
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if you put your hands in the air and it hits them it's a penalty
Simply not true. The position of your hands has no bearing on whether its an infringement. The infringement is whether the referee judges it to be intentional. And to make that decision he takes into account the relative distance and position between the last play of the ball and the players hand.
Technically your hands are in the air 99% of the time. How could the rules be any other way? By 'in the air' you actually mean rougly head height or above. How would they implement that? There was a perfect example of it earlier (may have been later can't remember) near the East stand where the ball was handled but it clearly wasn't a handball.
Don't get me wrong, I think irrationally about these things just as much as the next person. I was screaming penalty in the ground. But couple of hours later I calm down.
Of course it has a bearing,
If they deem the hands to be in an unnatural position, they're supposed to give a penalty.
You can't determine if it's intentional or not any other way
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I can assure you a phrase such as unnatural position would never feature in any rules. What exactly is a 'natural' position for a footballers hands? Half the time defenders hands are up high when they're getting leverage for headers.
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I know it won't be in the rules,
But that's how refs determine whether it's intentional or not.
"Former Premier League referee David Elleray said the referee's interpretation depends on whether the hand or arm is in an "unnatural" position at the point of contact.
David Elleray consults his assistant during a club
Referees often consult their assistants on decisions
"Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?" Elleray told BBC Sport.
"The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger.
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Ilderton is an awful ref. When I heard we had him today I shook my head. Sounded like he missed a lot.
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No one has mentioned the full blooded assualt on Connor Grant with their player going down making he had an head injury
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I can assure you a phrase such as unnatural position would never feature in any rules. What exactly is a 'natural' position for a footballers hands? Half the time defenders hands are up high when they're getting leverage for headers.
Normally the natural position is up a slappers skirt ;) ;)
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The ref are not accountable the same as players or managers
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Ellison's arms were in the air as a reaction, protecting his face from the cross. That to me means if the ball hits his arm (as it did) it is a penalty.
As for the kick out, it's a red card all day long. You don't need to make contact to be sent off, we see players rightly sent off for nudging their face towards an opponent, what their player did toward Marquis was certainly as bad and deserving of a red.
I think the result was fair today but these incidents are still worth pointing out. I didn't realise Eddie Ilderton was the ref as I no longer buy the programme, but I've never knowingly seen him have a good game with us and that hasn't changed today.
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When the ball hit Ellisons arm, he turned and looked at the lino in panic, which says all you need to know.
And we could have a case with the kick on Marquis as the ref didn't see it so retrospective action could be taken. Even if there's no contact, an attempted swing at an opponent is a straight red.
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Scunthorpe player was sent off for aiming a kick.
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Eddie Ilderton is one of the worst refs I've seen it's all been said on here about his shite decisions which come natural to him the worst one was the stonewall penalty he miseed when Ellison was doing a keeper impression I'm sure Ildertons eyes are painted on
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When the ball hit Ellisons arm, he turned and looked at the lino in panic, which says all you need to know.
And we could have a case with the kick on Marquis as the ref didn't see it so retrospective action could be taken. Even if there's no contact, an attempted swing at an opponent is a straight red.
I agree but then it may aid others to the detriment of us. He may have been sent off with a different Ref or this one on a different day and it may have altered the result
If they look back at him and ban him it may be for a game that is (say) v Pompey and actually helps them and further punishes us.
I always think it is barking when (as recently) West Ham had a man sent off v Man U who then went on to win - the FA then overturned the decision but West Ham had already lost the game and the 3 Points. Another instance where Refs can affect the result for sure
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I can assure you a phrase such as unnatural position would never feature in any rules. What exactly is a 'natural' position for a footballers hands? Half the time defenders hands are up high when they're getting leverage for headers.
When jumping yes but for crosses look how many Players now put their hands behind their backs so the ball cannot hit their hand/arm
If they dont and the ball hits them it leaves their Team at the mercy of the Ref some who would give a Pen and some who wont. It takes that variable out if it does not hit the hand in the first place.
There is no way Ellison should have had his hands where he did yesterday because he was not challenging in the air for the ball and for me in my humble opinion it was a Penalty all day long and the West Stand "assistant" Referee (assistant being a bit of a misnomer) had a clear view and should have flagged straight away. The Ref was probably unsighted
Incidentally I asked earlier in the Thread - was JM Offside when he scored early doors ? The contentious stuff is never replayed so you never get a second look. I had the opinion that Copps was "onside" a few minutes later and was given off by the same Lino.
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If it's hand to ball it's a penalty, if it's ball to hand it's not. If the arm is up in the air in deliberate attempt to block the potential passage of the ball it's an easy decision to make. If the arm just happens to be in the path of the ball some refs would give it some would not. The agonizing thing is that DRFC never seem to get these decisions in our favor.
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True. But I think this incident has to be seen to be believed. I hope there's a clip. It was kind of comical.
As I said, refs are refs, as long as the two most important factors determining the outcome are the performances of either team (as it was today), I don't care.
I would like to agree with you, but yesterday the officials became a 3rd most important factor.
And I am perfectly calm and rational. Thinking rationally the ref and the assistant made some blatant wrong decisions. The passage of time wont change that, even if we win the league by 10 points the errors of yesterday will still be there..
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No one has mentioned the full blooded assualt on Connor Grant with their player going down making he had an head injury
The clearing header in the penalty area in the first half?? Their player took out Grant in the air well after he headed the ball.. As clear a yellow card as you'll ever see, one of the numerous decisions, had they been punished correctly, may have seen Morecambe's players being a little more cautious afterwards...
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Have not seen any mention either of the "offside" goal by Marquis - was it offside or not ?
Ealry in the first half? I thought that was Williams put through by Copps?
Then Copps called offside a few moments later..
I couldn't see, wrong end of the ground..
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Could well have been Williams - but the Ball ended up in the net and I was unsure if it was correctly disallowed
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Just seen the handball incident on a clip. With the benefit of that highlight I think it clearly was a penalty.
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What about their player carrying on and putting ball in net after being called offside- I thought that there was a ruling that this is a booking
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Just seen the handball incident on a clip. With the benefit of that highlight I think it clearly was a penalty.
No need for hindsight or replays where I sit, clear pen. Ellison even made a half hearted attempt to pretend the ball had hit him in the face before he realised the pen hadn't been given
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In defence of the ref, I'm not sure he had a clear view of the incident as Ellison would have had his back to him. But the west stand Lino had a perfect view and didn't help him out at all. Definitely a pen
COYR
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It was Williams who had the goal disallowed. Then moments later Copps was through and given offside, he was at least a yard on side.
Their striker playing on and hitting a shot well after the whistle was blown, yellow card.
The keeper, time wasting from the off, I think the ref first had a word in the 17th minute and did absolutely nothing afterwards.
Then the penalty incident, Ellison getting away with all sorts, the various unpunished fouls....yeah it was this Idleton chap refereeing again. He's terrible every time we get him.
All in all the blame doesn't lie totally at his door, we just weren't quite 100% yesterday although we still had enough chances to win it. Still worries me how many cheap goals we concede but don't think that's going to change.
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Our disallowed goal in the first half was correctly given as offside. When the ball was played through Williams was just goal side of the defender.
One of the few the officials got right.
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What about their player carrying on and putting ball in net after being called offside- I thought that there was a ruling that this is a booking
Their player (7) actually put the ball into the north stand and clearly he knew he was offside by the way he just smashed the ball.we said at the time that he should have got a yellow card.
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Thought the ref was poor and Morecombe got away with quite a bit but Baudry could have quite easily been sent off.
Not sure how he got away with a blatant foul early in first half, he then got harshly booked then could easily had another yellow shortly afterwards at which Ellison was in the referee's face (although he did that all game)
The time-wasting by their keeper should have been punished after about 20 mins as it was every kick he took.
We should have been more clinical in the final third too many poor balls or wrong options taken when in good positions
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We have to realise we are in the bottom league so we will mostly get referee's who aren't good enough for the top leagues or are very young and on the way up. If you have a good enough team the referee should be an irrelevance because you will find a way to win.
All the teams have to cope with the same officials so there is no advantage. For me they make a lot of mistakes but they get far more right than wrong. Just like anybody else they are not above criticism but i think as fans we expect them to be nearer to perfection than is possible.
Every generation the officials jobs seem to get tougher with rules that come in and the increased cheating that goes on. There are officials that aren't good at their job just like any job but i wouldn't personally want to be referee or linesman it was hard enough years ago it seems almost impossible now.
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SCWK, it isn't just in L2 though is it.
Was it Wolfie who told us about the free kick thing at barnsley a few weeks ago when the keeper picked the ball up ten yards outside of his area and then lumped it forward.
Not penalised by the ref or more incredibly, by the linesman.
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Yes it was me .... quite the most bizarre thing I have seen for ages.
Ref waves take the Kick to Barnsleys Left Back he knock its square to their Keeper standing 10 yards outside his area and he picked it up and spun it forward (as they do) ready to punt it upfield
The murmur was incredible and for me mirrored the Telford no goal at OBV. The officials were appalling (see the Thread if interested for some but not all of his other faults). The 7 Yard Free Kick is worth a read and they are still talking in Barnsley about both
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=260972.0
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SCWK, it isn't just in L2 though is it.
Was it Wolfie who told us about the free kick thing at barnsley a few weeks ago when the keeper picked the ball up ten yards outside of his area and then lumped it forward.
Not penalised by the ref or more incredibly, by the linesman.
You are right it seems to be throughout football that standards aren't what they were in getting the big decisions right. I feel like the officials jobs are more complicated with the speed of the game and various rules that have changed over the years making consistency tougher to attain.
You are right some of the decisions are baffling what i don't like is when a linesman obviously see's what's happened and hasn't the guts to tell the referee. Also referee's that are stood looking at an incident but say they didn't see it. These decisions mostly seem to go against the smaller sides i think most officials are fair minded but i do think there is corruption involved at times so bad are the decisions.
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I was listening to Talksport a couple of days ago and it was being suggested that any type of handball should reult in a free kick, or penalty.
We regularly hear that it was ball to hand or that a player had his hands in a natural position (whatever that is) but the decision is down to the refs opinion or interpretation.
As not all refs interpret things the same way this leads to inconsistency.
Look at the pen we should have had against Morcambe when their 11 deflected the ball with both hands and a corner was given.
if the "free kick or pen for any handball rule" had been in place then the ref wouldnt have to interpret whether it was accidental or not.
No doubt some people will say that sometimes a handball is accidental but the new proposal takes all the doubt out of it and things for and against teams does tend to even out over time.
The Sanchez goal against Hull should never have been allowed.
The linesman MUST have been the ball strike the hand before going in and we dont know what was said to the ref over the link they have but if he saw it it should have been ruled out.
What does anyone think about this propsal ??
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First point for me is that as with rugby, the ref's mike should be broadcast.
On the handball rule, I do get the 'ball to hand' angle but my take on it is that even with ball to hand, if advantage is gained then it is handball but not punished by a card.
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I don't see any good reason NOT to have broadcast mics for football referees. It causes transparency, what's the downside?
The weird protection from comment/criticism that referees get is bizarre to me. I get that it is a very tough job and we don't want to see public witch hunts against them but it can only help to create more back-and-forth dialogue, so long as it's done in a respectful and mature way.
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Agree with all of that RoversAlias
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I don't see any good reason NOT to have broadcast mics for football referees. It causes transparency, what's the downside?
The weird protection from comment/criticism that referees get is bizarre to me. I get that it is a very tough job and we don't want to see public witch hunts against them but it can only help to create more back-and-forth dialogue, so long as it's done in a respectful and mature way.
The upside would be that any player abusing a ref would be heard by all.
That might calm a few down.