An interesting consequence...

[BobG]

Frosty your in constant agreement with bob.

Really? You've not seen some of the war of words me and Bob have had in the past then?

Lol Frosty It's getting to be like you and me are bosom buddies these days Ha ha.  I'm glad you see the point mate. I did wonder if anyone would get it. I knew I'd get plenty of vitriol for posting that, but if you recognise the qualities of any succesful leader then John is badly lacking in one of them.

Cheers

BobG

[Sammy Chung was King]

I Remember that famous conversation Cloughie had with a reporter,''What do you do when a player disagrees with you?'', ''Well we have a conversation and we both agree i was right in the first place'',or something like that,we could do with a few characters like him around today,all the managers have to bite their tongues these days,can you imagine the FA Charges he would get Every week?!

[DonSkippy]

He saw a problem in the fact we were punching well above our weight for far too long financially in the championship and tried something new. Something that could have worked.

[donnyroversfc]

He saw a problem in the fact we were punching well above our weight for far too long financially in the championship and tried something new stupid. Something that couldn't have worked.

[Standanista]

For what it's worth, my take is that by early 2011, we had run out if steam and more importantly, run out of the money that had underpinned O'Driscoll's success. Jan-Sept 11 showed where we were going. In crucial positions (of which keeper and CB were the obvious ones) we had players who were not even L1 standard. With the squad that we started last season with, we had barely a squeak of a hope of staying up. Regardless of WHY that situation came about, it was utterly unrealistic to expect O'Driscoll to survive. And remember that he had made little attempt to disguise the fact that he would jump if the right offer came in.

Nail on the head: firstly we didn't have the cash, secondly the KM2 didn't turn out to be the Roman Abramovich-Sultan of Brunei one-two that many of us had hoped they would be, and thirdly the dire economic picture in the Donny area has meant that folk will watch footy on Sky rather than come to the Keepmoat, much as a trip to the wine and spirits aisle in Sainsbo's in Edenthorpe is replacing a trip down the pub of an evening.  To go back to Bob's nautical analogy, the ship was holed, IMO, as soon as we started to lose key players to divisional rivals and get relative dross in, in return.  Simple fact: you don't win games by letting the opposition have the pick of your players.  How many out of Shackell, Ward, Roberts, Green, Wellens and Sharp wouldn't you have back, to name a few?  You can probably add Coppinger to that list in a few weeks.  We had reached the point where, to carry on building on the momentum, Pub Team spirit and progress of the previous ten years, a step change in financial muscle was needed, and it didn't happen.  We've flirted with Championship football but as a club we're just not big enough, nor have sufficient ambition at Board level (JR aside, but it's too big a job for one man), to be competitive at that level in the long term.  Same old Rovers, unfortunately.  What's been particularly gut wrenching about this last couple of seasons for me is that for the first time since the Bremner era, when I was naught but an impressionable youth anyway, I actually believed that this time there might be some real substance to all the hype, dreams of top-flight football and optimism around the club.  Unfortunately, as a failure-hardened, rank-&-file Donny fan who's already seen several false dawns in the past (though several less than some on here, who really do deserve medals), usually followed by the cheque book being slid quietly back into the drawer when the time comes to get serious, I really should have known better; to use a quote, "History teaches that history teaches us nothing."  Why do we bother?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

As long as humans take responsibility for making decisions, at some point, mistakes may be made, but how long do some of you intend making JR pay for his decisions by raking this up over and over again ?

Look me down the keyboard and tell me that JR and/or the board did not make decisions with what they thought were the best interests of the club at heart. 

For me, that's all we need to know and we live and learn and we move on.

[Chris Black come back]

For what it's worth, my take is that by early 2011, we had run out if steam and more importantly, run out of the money that had underpinned O'Driscoll's success. Jan-Sept 11 showed where we were going. In crucial positions (of which keeper and CB were the obvious ones) we had players who were not even L1 standard. With the squad that we started last season with, we had barely a squeak of a hope of staying up. Regardless of WHY that situation came about, it was utterly unrealistic to expect O'Driscoll to survive. And remember that he had made little attempt to disguise the fact that he would jump if the right offer came in.

Nail on the head: firstly we didn't have the cash, secondly the KM2 didn't turn out to be the Roman Abramovich-Sultan of Brunei one-two that many of us had hoped they would be, and thirdly the dire economic picture in the Donny area has meant that folk will watch footy on Sky rather than come to the Keepmoat, much as a trip to the wine and spirits aisle in Sainsbo's in Edenthorpe is replacing a trip down the pub of an evening.  To go back to Bob's nautical analogy, the ship was holed, IMO, as soon as we started to lose key players to divisional rivals and get relative dross in, in return.  Simple fact: you don't win games by letting the opposition have the pick of your players.  How many out of Shackell, Ward, Roberts, Green, Wellens and Sharp wouldn't you have back, to name a few?  You can probably add Coppinger to that list in a few weeks.  We had reached the point where, to carry on building on the momentum, Pub Team spirit and progress of the previous ten years, a step change in financial muscle was needed, and it didn't happen.  We've flirted with Championship football but as a club we're just not big enough, nor have sufficient ambition at Board level (JR aside, but it's too big a job for one man), to be competitive at that level in the long term.  Same old Rovers, unfortunately.  What's been particularly gut wrenching about this last couple of seasons for me is that for the first time since the Bremner era, when I was naught but an impressionable youth anyway, I actually believed that this time there might be some real substance to all the hype, dreams of top-flight football and optimism around the club.  Unfortunately, as a failure-hardened, rank-&-file Donny fan who's already seen several false dawns in the past (though several less than some on here, who really do deserve medals), usually followed by the cheque book being slid quietly back into the drawer when the time comes to get serious, I really should have known better; to use a quote, "History teaches that history teaches us nothing."  Why do we bother?

I think to be fair to the KM2 they probably realised that what you term "ambition" (putting a load of money up front on the expectation that we could push on and eventually prove so successful that the crowds would come flocking to make the whole enterprise viable) was a fantasy. I really do think that if we could through a Dave Whelan style injection of cash find ourselves in the Premier League we would be in exactly their shoes - crowds of 18-20k max and I mean absolute max. Once poor Dave goes the whole edifice will come crumbling down. Those poor bas**rds have no hope. Same as us. Doncaster folk just don't want to come and support Rovers. Nothing I think (even Premier League football) will change that. A sad truth that the KM2 probably realised and sensibly avoided extending "ambition" into a huge, non-recoverable black hole.

[Viking Don]

I wonder why they're wanting back in really. One 'lost interest in football' and the other had poor health? Really? Now they've had assurances about how the club will be run it's all Ok again? WTF is going on?

Anyway, I'm no high flying businessman but I wonder if it is such a wise thing to say you are skint and want to sell all your top earners cos you can't afford them in a lower league, and you can't buy anyone before you sell said high earners before buying new potential high earners.... but it seems a bit shit to me. Why not just pay said high earners off now and get a f***ing move on before the whole world laughs so much it falls off its axis?

TBH I'm waiting to see what these two have in store before I renew my ST as if I don't think it's right I will go watch Askern Villa instead. They should be saying what the intentions are NOW, why wait for stupid announcement we all know is coming? Say NOW WHY and what the f**k is going to happen! You f***ers are trying to sell tickets, FFS, do you have a clue how to do that? It seems not.

[BobG]

Thank you Don. It's not many who can remember back 6 months is it?

The discrepancy between the KM2's words and their actions tells us all we need to know. Convenient platitudes and excuses for the gullible masses and in-fighting, games and power struggles for the insiders. That's what's going on. You know that. I know that. In any meaningful sense, John is powerless and has been so since last October when the KM2 chose to exercise, for the first time, the power he sold to them a few years back. John knows now where he stands: a figurehead. That, and a cheque book, is all he is now. Trouble is, his cheque book still isn't big enough. With all the daily 'we are broke' claims being aired, just how much do you think the KM2 are putting in again? I remember a statement in the FP and the Star a couple of months ago that even if they did rejoin the Board, they wouldn't be funding anything. So, back to your question: why the hell are they bothering? And, not forgetting that something like 60%-70% of turnover has to be cut from the costs to just break even, just what are the implications of that for DRFC? Another subject that far too many people are either ignoring or refusing to recgnise.

Why do sooo many people refuse to see what's in front of their eyes? This club is on skid row.

I don't want it to happen, but I'm putting 20 quid on Rovers going down again next season. At least I'll win if they stay up and I'll have a different win if they go down.

BobG

[Standanista]

For what it's worth, my take is that by early 2011, we had run out if steam and more importantly, run out of the money that had underpinned O'Driscoll's success. Jan-Sept 11 showed where we were going. In crucial positions (of which keeper and CB were the obvious ones) we had players who were not even L1 standard. With the squad that we started last season with, we had barely a squeak of a hope of staying up. Regardless of WHY that situation came about, it was utterly unrealistic to expect O'Driscoll to survive. And remember that he had made little attempt to disguise the fact that he would jump if the right offer came in.

Nail on the head: firstly we didn't have the cash, secondly the KM2 didn't turn out to be the Roman Abramovich-Sultan of Brunei one-two that many of us had hoped they would be, and thirdly the dire economic picture in the Donny area has meant that folk will watch footy on Sky rather than come to the Keepmoat, much as a trip to the wine and spirits aisle in Sainsbo's in Edenthorpe is replacing a trip down the pub of an evening.  To go back to Bob's nautical analogy, the ship was holed, IMO, as soon as we started to lose key players to divisional rivals and get relative dross in, in return.  Simple fact: you don't win games by letting the opposition have the pick of your players.  How many out of Shackell, Ward, Roberts, Green, Wellens and Sharp wouldn't you have back, to name a few?  You can probably add Coppinger to that list in a few weeks.  We had reached the point where, to carry on building on the momentum, Pub Team spirit and progress of the previous ten years, a step change in financial muscle was needed, and it didn't happen.  We've flirted with Championship football but as a club we're just not big enough, nor have sufficient ambition at Board level (JR aside, but it's too big a job for one man), to be competitive at that level in the long term.  Same old Rovers, unfortunately.  What's been particularly gut wrenching about this last couple of seasons for me is that for the first time since the Bremner era, when I was naught but an impressionable youth anyway, I actually believed that this time there might be some real substance to all the hype, dreams of top-flight football and optimism around the club.  Unfortunately, as a failure-hardened, rank-&-file Donny fan who's already seen several false dawns in the past (though several less than some on here, who really do deserve medals), usually followed by the cheque book being slid quietly back into the drawer when the time comes to get serious, I really should have known better; to use a quote, "History teaches that history teaches us nothing."  Why do we bother?

I think to be fair to the KM2 they probably realised that what you term "ambition" (putting a load of money up front on the expectation that we could push on and eventually prove so successful that the crowds would come flocking to make the whole enterprise viable) was a fantasy. I really do think that if we could through a Dave Whelan style injection of cash find ourselves in the Premier League we would be in exactly their shoes - crowds of 18-20k max and I mean absolute max. Once poor Dave goes the whole edifice will come crumbling down. Those poor bas**rds have no hope. Same as us. Doncaster folk just don't want to come and support Rovers. Nothing I think (even Premier League football) will change that. A sad truth that the KM2 probably realised and sensibly avoided extending "ambition" into a huge, non-recoverable black hole.

It's down to how you define "successful", and "viable".  If you're looking at pure balance sheet success then there are few in footy who succeed on that basis.  Abramovich I would consider to be doing it for principally financial reasons, given it makes sense to stack assets outside Russia lest the time comes when he's persona non grata with Putin and the next new-monied oligarch to have to get out of his home country sharpish before he's had chance to get to the cashpoint.  If the KM2 see their involvement with DRFC as a vehicle to make money through property development then that might also be an area in which they can be "successful", though not from we fans' viewpoint of course unless that's replicated on the pitch.  Regardless, with a handful of exceptions, most folk who take control of footy clubs do it for reasons other than the straight bottom line, be it broader corporate image (e.g. arguably some of the Arab interests linked with Manchester City's owners), ego (pick any one of many), love of the club (JR), the chance to hide a few financial shenanigans (Richardson, anyone? the Glazers?) or whatever, rather than to turn over a profit, and certainly at a smaller club like Donny with a limited fan base.  The KM2 have been in business for years and have to have known that from the off, which swings me round to Bob's point of, in which case, why get involved at all?  And whither now?

[dickos1]

Bob I'll have £50 with you that we don't go down?

[Capmeister]

Thoughtful and respectful comments from both Bob G and BST. I was surprised Bob criticised JR but I also think the dourness of O'Driscoll just frustrated you BST, particularly after a run of poor performances. There are merits in both views. It's a shame we've become entrenched in two camps but that's how football gets you. JR is still the man for me. Football sadly, is much more of a business these days, to my perpetual irritation and JR is used to navigating trecherous business waters. I just have this awful gut feeling Saunders is taking us back not forward. All I do know is we played some joyous stuff under O'Driscoll. If that's clouded my judgement so be it

[Standanista]

I'm with you Capmeister in that I'm full square behind JR whatever.  For me we were down under SOD anyway and the McKay experiment, failure though it was, was a final throw of the dice to try and keep us in the Championship.  With 20:20 hindsight we'd have been better off next season keeping SOD, IMO, but we are where we are and we now need to give Saunders a chance to show what he can do next year.

[BobG]

I didn't mean to imply, ever, that JR is not a man for us all to back. Heaven forbid! I'm old enough to remember not only Ken Haran but also Hubert Bates. You can only tremble when you remember people like them.... JR, on the other hand, not only saved the club from extinction but also has given us all the best 10 years togger since the 1950's. No. My point was, and is, that John, like the rest of us, is not perfect.  He needs his ego stroking waaay too much; he has consistently appointed  numpties as Chief Execs (I'm not including the most recent incumbent in that condemnation. I don't know anywhere near enough about him to have any view at all), and, worst by far, John allowed himself to base critical judgements and decisions on an unachievable, and dangerous, set of aspirations. He's not perfect. He's given us all a fun time. But he can't do it again. He doesn't have either control, or, enough money. So his dream is ending. And so is ours. We should thank John for all he's done; all the great memories he has given us, and we should move on. A new set of dreams, with a new sense of purpose, a new sense of drive, is the way forwards now.

BobG

[BobG]

Bob I'll have £50 with you that we don't go down?

I'm not going to bet with you Dickos. But I am intrigued to know what you base your conviction on. Have I missed something? Have I misinterpreted something? I'm not omniscient so I'd be glad to understand what it is that gives you enough conviction to offer a bet like that.

Cheers

BobG

[wilts rover]

I didn't mean to imply, ever, that JR is not a man for us all to back. Heaven forbid! I'm old enough to remember not only Ken Haran but also Hubert Bates. You can only tremble when you remember people like them.... JR, on the other hand, not only saved the club from extinction but also has given us all the best 10 years togger since the 1950's. No. My point was, and is, that John, like the rest of us, is not perfect.  He needs his ego stroking waaay too much; he has consistently appointed  numpties as Chief Execs (I'm not including the most recent incumbent in that condemnation. I don't know anywhere near enough about him to have any view at all), and, worst by far, John allowed himself to base critical judgements and decisions on an unachievable, and dangerous, set of aspirations. He's not perfect. He's given us all a fun time. But he can't do it again. He doesn't have either control, or, enough money. So his dream is ending. And so is ours. We should thank John for all he's done; all the great memories he has given us, and we should move on. A new set of dreams, with a new sense of purpose, a new sense of drive, is the way forwards now.

BobG

Sorry Bob, am I reading that wrong or do you start off by saying that John Ryan is the man to back - and then finish by saying he should go? Sorry but you can't have it both ways. And after you have thanked him and moved him on - your answer to replace him is..........

Sorry my faith and trust is still with John Ryan because I dont have any alternative.

[dickos1]

Don't think you've missed anything bob, but I just think its far too early to even contemplate predicting we will be relegated. Some of The players we have today are as good as any in league 1 of that there is no doubt.
Some are going to leave yes, but not all of them. And we are bringing in upto ten new players, nobody knows who they are or how good they'll be.
We have to reduce wage bills as does any relegated club, compare our players now to sides like Hartlepool, bury, Leyton orient, Yeovil, Walsall, tranmere. We're far superior and in my honest opinion I think we will be fine next year.

[BobG]

OK. cool. I hope you're right and I'm wrong!

Cheers

Bob

PS Wilts: yes! You read it correctly.

[graingrover]

...." time for a new dream time to move on  "...If you are right in your prediction that JR does not have enough money nor enough control then we are doomed . No one else can step up and VSC does not have the backing of supporters that Pompey does ..I wouldn't bet on  such a  judgement being anywhere near a corrrect assessment of JR's capacity to carry this club into it's next stage of development.
           The temporary retirement of Watson and Bramall as Directors will certainly have politically facilitated the Council's decision to hand a long term lease to rovers.It would have never got past the difficult political committees otherwise.
            It would be wise to give JR the benefit of your doubts .

[Mr1Croft]

I can see both sides of the debate here. On one side John Ryan is the man who saved us and I want to remember him as that hero, and not as someone who held onto the dream for too long. But as pointed out there isn't a multi millionaire waiting in the shadows for when John Ryan steps down and John Ryan, being a fan first and foremost is what makes him still the greatest Chairman in the football league. I don't think his time with us up yet, and not do I want it to be.
That is just my feeling on the subject, and I don't think it is an issue with 2 sides of the debate, and as discovered in various other subjects it is obviously a sore point for some fans.

[Bristol Red Rover]

... we should move on. A new set of dreams, with a new sense of purpose, a new sense of drive, is the way forwards now.

BobG

What are your new set of dreams, Bob? How would you achieve them? I'm talking re DRFC, not other dreams

I ask you as I hear a lot of criticism from you, and thats fair enough, but without saying what you would do or would like to see and how you'd suggest we get there, it all seems unbalanced to me.

[dickos1]

If people think we're in a mess now what do you think the mess would be like if JR left?
A new set of dreams?? I very much doubt it, we would be on the way back from where once we came..

[Standanista]

The temporary retirement of Watson and Bramall as Directors will certainly have politically facilitated the Council's decision to hand a long term lease to rovers.It would have never got past the difficult political committees otherwise.

That's a good point that hadn't occurred to me.

[Red wizard]

The temporary retirement of Watson and Bramall as Directors will certainly have politically facilitated the Council's decision to hand a long term lease to rovers.It would have never got past the difficult political committees otherwise.

That's a good point that hadn't occurred to me.

Imo thats why they stepped down. I have nothing to base it on its just my gut feeling.

[Viking Don]

The temporary retirement of Watson and Bramall as Directors will certainly have politically facilitated the Council's decision to hand a long term lease to rovers.It would have never got past the difficult political committees otherwise.

That's a good point that hadn't occurred to me.

Imo thats why they stepped down. I have nothing to base it on its just my gut feeling.

Yes that could well be one of the reasons and hopefully the main reason. It hadn't occured to me either but does make sense of a kind. I await the forthcoming announcement and hope they're back 'on board' to further the interests of the Rovers.

There's no wonder folk are wondering what is going on though, but if this is the real reason then maybe it's a master stroke and understandable why it had to be kept below board. Here's hoping.

[hoolahoop]

Bob is entitled to his view - and he perhaps has more reason than most of us to give it given his past exploits - but 1998 was probably the last time he said anything positive about the club, so this latest post doesn't really represent a new development.

That's nonsense and you know it............I'm with Bob on this one. Perhaps we are all living in 1998 eh Chris ?

[dickos1]

You agree that it's time for JR to leave??

[grayx]

Looking back,loads of mistakes have been made,in my opinion the following;

S'OD'S squad that got us to the championship was never strengthened enough to compete.

Some players were given contracts that,to be honest, they didn't deserve. Either because we were too loyal or because we couldn't afford better.

We all wanted Billy, but perhaps his signing meant we didn't strengthen in other areas we desperately needed to. We also fcuct up big time with his release clause.

The Mckay experiment?
I think its proved it was a mistake, great players don't make great teams and can destroy team spirit. Did this lead to directors leaving? who knows.

I just hope that the Directors that have "come back on board" have done so for the right reasons. I doubt they have J'R s enthusiasm though.

[BobG]

Very interest8ng hypothesis Graingrover. I too hadn't thought of that. I hope it's true. Snag is, I am advised that the reason the KM2 went walkabout was not that. And unfortunately, what we read in the press tends to lean towards that advice rather than your idea. If they left for politico-council reasons, they would, one assumes, be investing again. But both the FP and the Star said, categorically, that neither would be doing so even if they did come back on the Board. That says to me that there was another reason behind their departure. And when youy remember the circumstances of JR's support of SOD and his about turn 48 hours later, one has to wonder just who'sse side the KM2 are on don't you?

As for what do I dream of? A decently average League 1 team would do for me. Occasional flirts with relegation and with promotion and the odd sojourn in the league either side - without any of the hyperbole, angst and breast beating of the last 4 years whichever way we went. How do we get there? Who would pay for it? No idea. But succession planning is a prime responsibility of any Board of Directors. It's their job to both recognise when their time is up, and, to put in place and groom adequate replacements. That's what they should be doing.

BobG

[dickos1]

Bob we've spoke of this before, and mr frost even posted the article on here. It has never been categorically stated that when they come back they won't be investing.