Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson

[Glyn_Wigley]

And still Labour are only two points ahead of Johnson , I'll not use the word Conservative Party .

Something not reight somewhere .

Aye, you.

The latest poll of polls I've just looked at has Labour 6% ahead.

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022

I stand corrected , 6% wow !!!

He stands corrected, wow!!!

[scawsby steve]

Fee fi fo fum. I smell the blood of a Tarn Tory.

To tell the truth William if both the major party's were cars you'd have taken them to the scrap yard decades ago .

I find both in varying degrees absolutely grotesque .

They both  survive because of tribalism and our voting system , that's the only thing that keeps them alive .

The very best of luck getting the country that you want then.

In our FPTP system, politics isn't about you saying "give me exactly what I demand or I'm not playing." It's about growing up, gritting your teeth and getting the least bad outcome on offer.

If you don't engage with that, and as a result, Johnson gets back in power, you can wave your conscience from the highest flagpole in Barnsley. But it won't change the fact. YOU will have chosen to put Johnson back in No10.

Your call.

So what happens if Johnson gets replaced as Tory leader? You won't have this theory to fall back on.

Maybe if Keith would start suggesting some credible alternative policies, instead of looking just as useless as the rest of them, then people might consider taking the trouble to turn out and vote.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS.
The policies will come. Be patient.

I challenged Albie last week to name me any Opposition that had set out the detailed policies it would run on 30 months out from a General Election, and gone on to win.

Still waiting for an example. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Plus, there's the oldest truism in politics.

When your opponent is insisting on showing you how incompetent and unpleasant he is, you don't steal the attention off him. You let him have all the attention he wants.

[scawsby steve]

And still Labour are only two points ahead of Johnson , I'll not use the word Conservative Party .

Something not reight somewhere .

Aye, you.

The latest poll of polls I've just looked at has Labour 6% ahead.

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022

I stand corrected , 6% wow !!!

He stands corrected, wow!!!

Come on, Glyn. You know as much as the rest of us that a 6% lead against an unpopular government in mid-term is absolutely w*nk.

If the LP looked in any way credible, they would be 20% up by now.

[BillyStubbsTears]

House!

[SydneyRover]

Fee fi fo fum. I smell the blood of a Tarn Tory.

To tell the truth William if both the major party's were cars you'd have taken them to the scrap yard decades ago .

I find both in varying degrees absolutely grotesque .

They both  survive because of tribalism and our voting system , that's the only thing that keeps them alive .

The very best of luck getting the country that you want then.

In our FPTP system, politics isn't about you saying "give me exactly what I demand or I'm not playing." It's about growing up, gritting your teeth and getting the least bad outcome on offer.

If you don't engage with that, and as a result, Johnson gets back in power, you can wave your conscience from the highest flagpole in Barnsley. But it won't change the fact. YOU will have chosen to put Johnson back in No10.

Your call.

So what happens if Johnson gets replaced as Tory leader? You won't have this theory to fall back on.

Maybe if Keith would start suggesting some credible alternative policies, instead of looking just as useless as the rest of them, then people might consider taking the trouble to turn out and vote.

So the best thing for tories is for Starmer to hang around, not sure why you are moaning Steve

[Glyn_Wigley]

And still Labour are only two points ahead of Johnson , I'll not use the word Conservative Party .

Something not reight somewhere .

Aye, you.

The latest poll of polls I've just looked at has Labour 6% ahead.

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2022

I stand corrected , 6% wow !!!

He stands corrected, wow!!!

Come on, Glyn. You know as much as the rest of us that a 6% lead against an unpopular government in mid-term is absolutely w*nk.

If the LP looked in any way credible, they would be 20% up by now.

You didn't look at the second link then.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Outside THE most remarkable conditions, like the start of the pandemic where people tend to gatherround a leader, no party ever gets 20% leads in the current political environment.
 

[ravenrover]

Wonder if the Tories lose the 2 upcoming elections that will trigger the opposition to go for a vote of no confidence hoping for the support of the Tory rebels. I guess the Tories will whip their MPs but it wouldn't stop them from abstaining.
Thoughts?

[drfchound]

Fee fi fo fum. I smell the blood of a Tarn Tory.

To tell the truth William if both the major party's were cars you'd have taken them to the scrap yard decades ago .

I find both in varying degrees absolutely grotesque .

They both  survive because of tribalism and our voting system , that's the only thing that keeps them alive .

The very best of luck getting the country that you want then.

In our FPTP system, politics isn't about you saying "give me exactly what I demand or I'm not playing." It's about growing up, gritting your teeth and getting the least bad outcome on offer.

If you don't engage with that, and as a result, Johnson gets back in power, you can wave your conscience from the highest flagpole in Barnsley. But it won't change the fact. YOU will have chosen to put Johnson back in No10.

Your call.

So the other few million who also vote Tory wouldn’t have had any influence on the outcome then?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I can't see more than a slack handful of Tory MPs voting against Johnson in a Parliamentary VONC. Whatever the intention, losing that would be seen a a VONC in the Govt as a whole, not just a vote against Johnson.

Interesting to look at the effects of a Parliamentary VONC though.

As far as I can see, a sitting Govt has only been changed by a VONC twice in the past century.

1979. Labour's minority Govt under Callaghan lost, after the SNP turned against them following the Scottish devolution referendum. Parliament was dissolved and there was a General Election.

1940. Chamberlain's Tory Govt narrowly won a VONC after a big rebellion about his shocking handling of the early war effort. Chamberlain resigned as PM, but there was no General Election. Churchill replaced him as a Coalition PM.


That gets to the nub and it's something we usually forget. A PM and his/her Govt only stays in power if they have the support of Parliament. If they don't, they have to resign. That's totally different to the American system for example, where a President can still survive even with a Congress dominated by the other party.

Losing a VONC in this country legally only removes the PM and Government. It doesn't automatically spark a General Election. If the Commons can find a majority to support an alternative PM and Govt, they should take over. There was a lot of panicked discussion about that possibility 3 years ago when Johnson appeared to be steering us into a No Deal Brexit. There was a big majority in the Commons against that outcome and there was talk of a VONC to remove Johnson, then replace him with a figurehead like Ken Clarke to block No Deal, and only  then call an election.

So losing a VONC does not automatically result in a General Election. But Team Johnson would play it that way if there was a VONC. They'd say "If we lose, we'll refuse to support any alternative PM. So they'll not be able to get a majority in the Commons. That will force a General Election." So the VONC would year the Tories apart and almost certainly lose 100 Tory MPs their seats. 

[Bristol Red Rover]

Of course it won't be a walkover. Anything could happen yet. And 30% of the population are now so wedded to Project Johnson that he could rape a sheep in the doorway of No10 and they'd find a reason to excuse him.

Couple of old dears from Tiverton on R4 news this lunchtime. "Yes he might have had a few drinks, but why did everybody go on so much about it. Boris has had so much on his plate. He had to deal with COVID. And all the problems with Brexit."

God help us...

Terrible innit William , democracy and all that .

Are you someone who feels we have something close to democracy in this country? Most elections and votes are decided by who or what the media supports, ie the media who are owned by the establishment. The media campaigns are done during election periods as well as every single day outside of that. People are lied to on every level. That is almost as much a democracy as a flat out dictatorship is.

[SydneyRover]

I don't wish to bore you with too much Oz politics but it's very similar here in many ways with possible a worse concentration of media. Despite this when the public mood is on the move it can and does defy the media gravity, mark them down and elect a centre, centre left government. The relief at the moment is palpable.

[SydneyRover]

the Guardian

''Boris Johnson has pulled out of a major event held by his northern Tory MPs designed to energise supporters and improve the party’s chances of holding on to “red wall” seats at the next election.

After telling the Northern Research Group he would address its gathering with hundreds of activists held in Doncaster on Thursday, No 10 said the prime minister would not be able to attend''

Shit ..................

[ravenrover]

That whoosh  you just heard was the Big sigh of relief from  Northern Research Group

[SydneyRover]

The fridge is this way Mr Johnson .................

[mugnapper]

Apparently he's gone to Kyiv instead!!
Says summat when he feels safer flying into a War Zone than driving  to Donny!!
He truly is a Lionheart lol!!!

[ravenrover]

If it's true Well he had to show his face as he wasn't there with the othe EU leaders

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sometimes you have to take a step back and reflect on things to see how quickly things can fall apart.

Two days ago, Johnson's ethics adviser felt he had no option but to resign because of Johnson's behaviour. That's the second ethics adviser to give up trying the impossible  in 2 years.

Last time it was about the behaviour of a bully in the Cabinet who had driven someone to a suicide attempt.

This time, it appears the issue was that the PM was planning to break the law on international trade.

Nothing like this has ever happened before in our Parliamentary history.

Now?

The kerfuffle this week has barely raised an eyebrow. We are so saturated with Johnson's lying and cheating and flouting of regulations, that yet another story of him doing so just gets a "meh".

Normalising this behaviour is so, so very dangerous. Where's the incentive now for future politicians to play by the rules, when Johnson's demonstrating on a weekly basis that you can just discard them and suffer no consequences?

[tyke1962]

Of course it won't be a walkover. Anything could happen yet. And 30% of the population are now so wedded to Project Johnson that he could rape a sheep in the doorway of No10 and they'd find a reason to excuse him.

Couple of old dears from Tiverton on R4 news this lunchtime. "Yes he might have had a few drinks, but why did everybody go on so much about it. Boris has had so much on his plate. He had to deal with COVID. And all the problems with Brexit."

God help us...

Terrible innit William , democracy and all that .

Are you someone who feels we have something close to democracy in this country? Most elections and votes are decided by who or what the media supports, ie the media who are owned by the establishment. The media campaigns are done during election periods as well as every single day outside of that. People are lied to on every level. That is almost as much a democracy as a flat out dictatorship is.

As far as I know you are free to tick any box on a ballot paper and so long as you don't spoil it then it will be counted .

That's as free as it's possible to be .

I don't buy in to the bias media coverage because generally people will read what connects to them rather than they are influenced by it .

It's extremely rare they will read what they don't politically agree with , Sydney is a classic example with his Guardian links and Billy clear follows people on twitter with views he agrees with .

I'm always going to push hard against anybody telling me how I should vote and I have good reason to think like that because it's never left me how I lost everything in a strike we possibly couldn't win and if my union had put a democratic procedure in place things may well have worked out differently .

I swore then nobody but nobody would ever influence me , I am my own person with my own life with things going on that are probably way different to someone else .

The biggest threat  to democracy is the current way we elect governments and a system endorsed by the Conservative Party and Labour .

Which is why basically you get two choices and why both parties are not fit for purpose anyone .

A genuine bit of competition would totally transform our system .

Clearly they are frightened of it .

[BobG]

I wholeheartedly agree with post 1549 Billy. In the past, it didn't really matter who was in power. Everybody basically played by the same rules. And this country enjoyed stability and relative harmony.

Today we have a government that has finished the task of destroying consensus politics. It has finished the task of destroying the checks and balances of our governmental system. The future now is wide open toextremists of  both left and right. This is a direct comparison with early 1930's Weimar Germany. Why do you think I am looking to emigrate?

BobG

[danumdon]

Sometimes Tyke you have to be careful what you wish for, The French have had to learn the hard way that when you disagree with whats on offer some bright spark comes up with a a party like Macrons En Marche (changed their name to Renaissance)
With this being a complete middle of the road, all things to all men party they now realise that this plonker promised plenty and delivered very little. With a good chance of his presidential tenure becoming a lame duck with the voting this weekend it could become a very long 5 years for this pumped up bantam.

The gist of my post is if we are not careful we too could end up with an awful hash of a LibLab love in, with the dire prospect of some of our current worst issues being dragged up and regurgitated until the pips squeak. How this is supposed to help us recover from this worsening economic climate, nobody knows, but what i do know is it would result in the worst 5 years most people alive today would have had to witness.

[BillyStubbsTears]

DD

Still claiming you're politically neutral?

[danumdon]

When you see what we currently have on offer and what "we could of won" with what the far left incarnation of what Labour were offering i'd say we are well stuffed.

[scawsby steve]

Sometimes Tyke you have to be careful what you wish for, The French have had to learn the hard way that when you disagree with whats on offer some bright spark comes up with a a party like Macrons En Marche (changed their name to Renaissance)
With this being a complete middle of the road, all things to all men party they now realise that this plonker promised plenty and delivered very little. With a good chance of his presidential tenure becoming a lame duck with the voting this weekend it could become a very long 5 years for this pumped up bantam.

The gist of my post is if we are not careful we too could end up with an awful hash of a LibLab love in, with the dire prospect of some of our current worst issues being dragged up and regurgitated until the pips squeak. How this is supposed to help us recover from this worsening economic climate, nobody knows, but what i do know is it would result in the worst 5 years most people alive today would have had to witness.

Totally agree with that last paragraph. If the LP get into bed with that bunch of unprincipled shysters, after what happened in 2010, they'll forever be remembered as a party with no morals or integrity whatsoever.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS..
Make your mind up. You said after the Brexit vote that politicians had to listen to what the electorate tells them.

So what happens in 2024 if Labour is the biggest party but doesn't have a majority?

[drfchound]

Of course it won't be a walkover. Anything could happen yet. And 30% of the population are now so wedded to Project Johnson that he could rape a sheep in the doorway of No10 and they'd find a reason to excuse him.

Couple of old dears from Tiverton on R4 news this lunchtime. "Yes he might have had a few drinks, but why did everybody go on so much about it. Boris has had so much on his plate. He had to deal with COVID. And all the problems with Brexit."

God help us...

Terrible innit William , democracy and all that .

Are you someone who feels we have something close to democracy in this country? Most elections and votes are decided by who or what the media supports, ie the media who are owned by the establishment. The media campaigns are done during election periods as well as every single day outside of that. People are lied to on every level. That is almost as much a democracy as a flat out dictatorship is.

As far as I know you are free to tick any box on a ballot paper and so long as you don't spoil it then it will be counted .

That's as free as it's possible to be .

I don't buy in to the bias media coverage because generally people will read what connects to them rather than they are influenced by it .

It's extremely rare they will read what they don't politically agree with , Sydney is a classic example with his Guardian links and Billy clear follows people on twitter with views he agrees with .

I'm always going to push hard against anybody telling me how I should vote and I have good reason to think like that because it's never left me how I lost everything in a strike we possibly couldn't win and if my union had put a democratic procedure in place things may well have worked out differently .

I swore then nobody but nobody would ever influence me , I am my own person with my own life with things going on that are probably way different to someone else .

The biggest threat  to democracy is the current way we elect governments and a system endorsed by the Conservative Party and Labour .

Which is why basically you get two choices and why both parties are not fit for purpose anyone .

A genuine bit of competition would totally transform our system .

Clearly they are frightened of it .

Quote below by bst:
Indulging your conscience and voting for a party with no chance of winning the seat is just that. An indulgence.



Interesting that bst thinks that anyone who votes for Lib Dem, Green etc is wasting their vote. 

[idler]

Surely if it is a close run thing you vote for either the party you want to get in and failing that the the party that will beat your least favourite party. Usually Labour or Conservative.
I would hate to vote for my party and come a distant third or fourth and then see my least favourite party win by a narrow margin.
Surely that's how it works hound?

[drfchound]

Surely if it is a close run thing you vote for either the party you want to get in and failing that the the party that will beat your least favourite party. Usually Labour or Conservative.
I would hate to vote for my party and come a distant third or fourth and then see my least favourite party win by a narrow margin.
Surely that's how it works hound?

I think I would depend on whether you were a staunch Lib Dem or Green Party supporter.
Are you suggesting that you shouldn’t vote for them even though you know they can’t possibly win a GE.
Not everyone chooses to vote conservative or Labour, do they?