Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: wilts rover on September 15, 2021, 07:50:11 pm
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https://twitter.com/DOPreston/status/1438041860145041413
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
It wouldn't look as good as you whinging bad losers under one.
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
It wouldn't look as good as you whinging bad losers under one.
Now what would the Brexiteers say if a poster put they wished they would be run over by a bus? Price of gammon gone up has it?
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Ask a Brexiter.
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So if we'd lost the 2ww we'd just get on with it then, accept it?
Bad decisions, bad outcomes should be challenged and if determined to be detrimental, turned around. It's like banging your head against the wall ............... great when it stops.
£440 million a week, a statement by The Bank of England, not a third tier football forum.
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
It wouldn't look as good as you whinging bad losers under one.
Now what would the Brexiteers say if a poster put they wished they would be run over by a bus? Price of gammon gone up has it?
They'd enter threads, ignore the subject of the thread, abuse people and then f**k off again.
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
There was a similar one made for johnson's lies and broken promises but it kept crashing.
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The key bit for me is “lost growth” .
I’m happy with no more growth.
And anyone that thinks that staying in the Eu means we would hire more cops or nurses is just deluded. Hollow propaganda.
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
It wouldn't look as good as you whinging bad losers under one.
Now what would the Brexiteers say if a poster put they wished they would be run over by a bus? Price of gammon gone up has it?
They'd enter threads, ignore the subject of the thread, abuse people and then f**k off again.
The irony.
Except we can only hope you do f**k off.
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So if we'd lost the 2ww we'd just get on with it then, accept it?
Bad decisions, bad outcomes should be challenged and if determined to be detrimental, turned around. It's like banging your head against the wall ............... great when it stops.
£440 million a week, a statement by The Bank of England, not a third tier football forum.
If we'd lost we would have had to accept it, as the war would have been over and the whole of europe would have been under German control.
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The key bit for me is “lost growth” .
I’m happy with no more growth.
And anyone that thinks that staying in the Eu means we would hire more cops or nurses is just deluded. Hollow propaganda.
https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/why-does-economic-growth-matter
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
It wouldn't look as good as you whinging bad losers under one.
Now what would the Brexiteers say if a poster put they wished they would be run over by a bus? Price of gammon gone up has it?
They'd enter threads, ignore the subject of the thread, abuse people and then f**k off again.
The irony.
Except we can only hope you do f**k off.
See? That's two of them that's done it now.
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Glyn. Who are you talking to?
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
It wouldn't look as good as you whinging bad losers under one.
Now what would the Brexiteers say if a poster put they wished they would be run over by a bus? Price of gammon gone up has it?
They'd enter threads, ignore the subject of the thread, abuse people and then f**k off again.
The irony.
Except we can only hope you do f**k off.
See? That's two of them that's done it now.
Sadly, they can't help themselves.
Brexit really is like having your Library burned down by people who can't read.
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
It wouldn't look as good as you whinging bad losers under one.
Now what would the Brexiteers say if a poster put they wished they would be run over by a bus? Price of gammon gone up has it?
They'd enter threads, ignore the subject of the thread, abuse people and then f**k off again.
The irony.
Except we can only hope you do f**k off.
Thats not very nice is it, do you consider yourself the man that oversee’s who can and can’t use this forum?
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So that's one person wanting people he disagrees with to go under a bus.
And another one wanting a person he disagrees with to f**k off.
Pleasant place, this has become.
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
It wouldn't look as good as you whinging bad losers under one.
Now what would the Brexiteers say if a poster put they wished they would be run over by a bus? Price of gammon gone up has it?
They'd enter threads, ignore the subject of the thread, abuse people and then f**k off again.
The irony.
Except we can only hope you do f**k off.
Thats not very nice is it, do you consider yourself the man that oversee’s who can and can’t use this forum?
How do you reach that conclusion, Filo? It can’t be in anything I wrote.
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
It wouldn't look as good as you whinging bad losers under one.
Now what would the Brexiteers say if a poster put they wished they would be run over by a bus? Price of gammon gone up has it?
They'd enter threads, ignore the subject of the thread, abuse people and then f**k off again.
The irony.
Except we can only hope you do f**k off.
Thats not very nice is it, do you consider yourself the man that oversee’s who can and can’t use this forum?
How do you reach that conclusion, Filo? It can’t be in anything I wrote.
Hoping someone “f**ks off”, thats what you wrote, it seems like you are trying to drive away people you disagree with
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So that's one person wanting people he disagrees with to go under a bus.
And another one wanting a person he disagrees with to f**k off.
Pleasant place, this has become.
Billy. You made a song and dance about ‘blocking’ me a while ago. Now Whilst I know you never really ‘blocked’ me, some of your dwindling supporters might have believed you had some integrity left. Our Sydney even followed you. Now what are they going think?
I think when you block someone, yet still comment on their posts, it makes you a super troll.
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
It wouldn't look as good as you whinging bad losers under one.
Now what would the Brexiteers say if a poster put they wished they would be run over by a bus? Price of gammon gone up has it?
They'd enter threads, ignore the subject of the thread, abuse people and then f**k off again.
The irony.
Except we can only hope you do f**k off.
Thats not very nice is it, do you consider yourself the man that oversee’s who can and can’t use this forum?
How do you reach that conclusion, Filo? It can’t be in anything I wrote.
Hoping someone “f**ks off”, thats what you wrote, it seems like you are trying to drive away people you disagree with
Not people who I disagree with, Filo, just those I find arrogant and abusive.
And those who can’t read posts correctly.
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So that's one person wanting people he disagrees with to go under a bus.
And another one wanting a person he disagrees with to f**k off.
Pleasant place, this has become.
Billy. You made a song and dance about ‘blocking’ me a while ago. Now Whilst I know you never really ‘blocked’ me, some of your dwindling supporters might have believed you had some integrity left. Our Sydney even followed you. Now what are they going think?
I think when you block someone, yet still comment on their posts, it makes you a super troll.
No idea if he’s blocked you or not, but you do realise that any of your posts that have been quoted will be seen regardless?
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There is a ready reckoner based on the Bank of England estimates;
https://costofbrexit.netlify.app/
Mmm....looking good eh!
£440 mill a week?
That'd look good on the side of a bus.
It wouldn't look as good as you whinging bad losers under one.
Now what would the Brexiteers say if a poster put they wished they would be run over by a bus? Price of gammon gone up has it?
They'd enter threads, ignore the subject of the thread, abuse people and then f**k off again.
The irony.
Except we can only hope you do f**k off.
Thats not very nice is it, do you consider yourself the man that oversee’s who can and can’t use this forum?
How do you reach that conclusion, Filo? It can’t be in anything I wrote.
Hoping someone “f**ks off”, thats what you wrote, it seems like you are trying to drive away people you disagree with
Not people who I disagree with, Filo, just those I find arrogant and abusive.
And those who can’t read posts correctly.
So you agree that theres something in what you wrote that might suggest that?
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I agree that arrogant and abusive posters should f**k off. Don’t you?
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I agree that arrogant and abusive posters should f**k off. Don’t you?
I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone is entitled to disagree, but it is noticeable that your replies to certain posters are becoming more aggresive
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I agree that arrogant and abusive posters should f**k off. Don’t you?
I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone is entitled to disagree, but it is noticeable that your replies to certain posters are becoming more aggresive
Nice answer, Filo, but that’s not what I asked.
Oh, and do you consider yourself the man who decides acceptable levels of aggression on this forum?
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I agree that arrogant and abusive posters should f**k off. Don’t you?
I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone is entitled to disagree, but it is noticeable that your replies to certain posters are becoming more aggresive
Nice answer, Filo, but that’s not what I asked.
Oh, and do you consider yourself the man who decides acceptable levels of aggression on this forum?
Not at all Belton, just my opinion, you were far better when you debated topics rather than just tell people to “f**k off”, just my opinion ofcourse
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So that's one person wanting people he disagrees with to go under a bus.
And another one wanting a person he disagrees with to f**k off.
Pleasant place, this has become.
Billy. You made a song and dance about ‘blocking’ me a while ago. Now Whilst I know you never really ‘blocked’ me, some of your dwindling supporters might have believed you had some integrity left. Our Sydney even followed you. Now what are they going think?
I think when you block someone, yet still comment on their posts, it makes you a super troll.
No idea if he’s blocked you or not, but you do realise that any of your posts that have been quoted will be seen regardless?
Precisely Filo. I've enjoyed not seeing a couple of people's posts directly in my feed in recent months. It's been like breathing cleaner air for months instead of dealing with a constant stream of abuse and provocation. I recommend it to anyone. But sometimes you can't help but see them when someone quotes them. And then you get reminded just how unpleasant some people are. For the record, the reason I put Belton on ignore was because he responded to a joke from me with "f**k off you toxic prick." I reckon when interactions have got to that point, it's best to draw a line under any further exchange. And that applies whether I really WAS a toxic prick in those interactions, or whether Belton incorrectly thought I was. Whatever the truth, best to not engage anymore.
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I agree that arrogant and abusive posters should f**k off. Don’t you?
Mirror mirror on the wall.....................
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I agree that arrogant and abusive posters should f**k off. Don’t you?
I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone is entitled to disagree, but it is noticeable that your replies to certain posters are becoming more aggresive
Nice answer, Filo, but that’s not what I asked.
Oh, and do you consider yourself the man who decides acceptable levels of aggression on this forum?
Not at all Belton, just my opinion, you were far better when you debated topics rather than just tell people to “f**k off”, just my opinion ofcourse
I didn’t tell anyone to f**k off. I used the phrase in direct response to the poster you seem very concerned about, after he used it to describe all ‘Brexiters’ on this forum.
What you have done since that is what many vocal anti government/Brexit poster on here does - use it to play some ridiculous moral high horse game.
I am not going to speak for Bentley here, but what he did was use a play on words - on the bus/under the bus - it was a (quite funny) joke. EVERYONE knows that if they are completely honest about it.
But what happens? Billy pipes up about how awful it is that people want to see others get killed under a bus!
THAT is the fundamental thing that is wrong with this forum.
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I agree that arrogant and abusive posters should f**k off. Don’t you?
Mirror mirror on the wall.....................
Who’s the most bitter remoaner of them all?
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I agree that arrogant and abusive posters should f**k off. Don’t you?
Mirror mirror on the wall.....................
Who’s the most bitter Brexshiter of them all?
Fixed that for you.
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So that's one person wanting people he disagrees with to go under a bus.
And another one wanting a person he disagrees with to f**k off.
Pleasant place, this has become.
Billy. You made a song and dance about ‘blocking’ me a while ago. Now Whilst I know you never really ‘blocked’ me, some of your dwindling supporters might have believed you had some integrity left. Our Sydney even followed you. Now what are they going think?
I think when you block someone, yet still comment on their posts, it makes you a super troll.
No idea if he’s blocked you or not, but you do realise that any of your posts that have been quoted will be seen regardless?
Precisely Filo. I've enjoyed not seeing a couple of people's posts directly in my feed in recent months. It's been like breathing cleaner air for months instead of dealing with a constant stream of abuse and provocation. I recommend it to anyone. But sometimes you can't help but see them when someone quotes them. And then you get reminded just how unpleasant some people are. For the record, the reason I put Belton on ignore was because he responded to a joke from me with "f**k off you toxic prick." I reckon when interactions have got to that point, it's best to draw a line under any further exchange. And that applies whether I really WAS a toxic prick in those interactions, or whether Belton incorrectly thought I was. Whatever the truth, best to not engage anymore.
I’m quite aware how blocking works, Filo.
And there’s the rallying cry! If you want to be like Billy, then block belton.
#We’re all Billy.
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I agree that arrogant and abusive posters should f**k off. Don’t you?
Mirror mirror on the wall.....................
Who’s the most bitter Brexshiter of them all?
Fixed that for you.
That might be quite funny, if it made any sense.
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I agree that arrogant and abusive posters should f**k off. Don’t you?
I think everyone is entitled to an opinion, and everyone is entitled to disagree, but it is noticeable that your replies to certain posters are becoming more aggresive
Nice answer, Filo, but that’s not what I asked.
Oh, and do you consider yourself the man who decides acceptable levels of aggression on this forum?
Not at all Belton, just my opinion, you were far better when you debated topics rather than just tell people to “f**k off”, just my opinion ofcourse
I didn’t tell anyone to f**k off. I used the phrase in direct response to the poster you seem very concerned about, after he used it to describe all ‘Brexiters’ on this forum.
What you have done since that is what many vocal anti government/Brexit poster on here does - use it to play some ridiculous moral high horse game.
I am not going to speak for Bentley here, but what he did was use a play on words - on the bus/under the bus - it was a (quite funny) joke. EVERYONE knows that if they are completely honest about it.
But what happens? Billy pipes up about how awful it is that people want to see others get killed under a bus!
THAT is the fundamental thing that is wrong with this forum.
It's what they call grown-up politics, Belton!
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Abuse is only condoned on here if it's given by the lefties.
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That's because they're all so precious. They don't like it up 'em, as Corporal Jones used to say in Dad's Army.
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Rest easy, Proud Boys!
Owt to say on the subject matter, the cost of Brexit?
If not, are we safe to assume you think the eye watering costs are just fine, OK for the future?
Less boys than codger battalion, really!
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I’m noticing no different to my wallet or bank account content since brexit thank you.
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I’m noticing no different to my wallet or bank account content since brexit thank you.
That's kind of the point. In normal times, the economy grows and we all, on average, get richer. We had growth throttled off by Austerity a decade ago, and just as it was feebly beginning to rise again, we voted for Brexit and economic growth collapsed again. So, allowing for inflation, we are barely any richer as a country than we were 11 years ago.
We are standing still. While most of the developed world has got richer. You might not notice that because it is a slow process. But over 20 or 30 years you will.
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I’m not arsed about being richer. Genuinely. I’m happy with my lot. More to life than just money. Providing I’ve enough to pay bills, which I have thankfully, and a bit left over for spends.then I’m happy.
All this talk of brexit losses is fully expected by me.it took us decades to become financially shackled by the union. It will take decades for us to be fully beneficial by freeing ourselves of it. The benefits won’t be realised overnight. Probably not in my lifetime. But In time, I feel they will be.
Other Eu states will look back in years to come, And see the UK as leaders in outing what is fast becoming a rogue empire, hell bent now on their own Army. History repeating itself. ? May be not this year, or this decade. But Ursula Von de shithouse is looking more and more like a sith baroness with every day that passes.
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I’m not arsed about being richer. Genuinely. I’m happy with my lot. More to life than just money. Providing I’ve enough to pay bills, which I have thankfully, and a bit left over for spends.then I’m happy.
All this talk of brexit losses is fully expected by me.it took us decades to become financially shackled by the union. It will take decades for us to be fully beneficial by freeing ourselves of it. The benefits won’t be realised overnight. Probably not in my lifetime. But In time, I feel they will be.
Other Eu states will look back in years to come, And see the UK as leaders in outing what is fast becoming a rogue empire, hell bent now on their own Army. History repeating itself. ? May be not this year, or this decade. But Ursula Von de shithouse is looking more and more like a sith baroness with every day that passes.
As no one told us that we'd have to wait decades ''to be fully beneficial by freeing ourselves of it''
You may be one of the few that understands this concept and it would be good for you to explain it.
''Other Eu states will look back in years to come, And see the UK as leaders in outing what is fast becoming a rogue empire''
You could also explain what this means.
It's a good job you're not arsed about being rich because as you say the benefits of opting out will not be felt for decades and not in your lifetime, it's your grandkids that will need the wealth.
'Not being arsed about wealth' ask someone about wealth that is not fortunate to be in your position, maybe one of those unfortunates to come into contact with the money burning bullington club arseholes and their admirers.
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I “feel” this will be the case. I’m no expert on global economics, like some profess to be on here.
A bit like marriage. You enter into a long term relationship with mortgages etc. Then it goes tits up. Divorce. Financial instability etc etc. It’s takes time to come out of the other side of this. A simplistic view I agree. And the EU divorce is an exponentially larger case of course. The principle is the same .
It’s been done to death on here about the “democracy” of the EU. Unelected people with huge power.now wanting their own army.
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And I know what it’s like to be on my arse financially. I come from a humble background. Mums family from Stainy, dads from Moorends. Both mining families.
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The EU have already started the problems in Ukraine with their puppets.
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Without doubt, Ukraine will be top of the list of sith baroness Bon de shithouse conflict list when the EU go toe to toe with the Russians there.
And what’s the betting when it does kick off there, the EU will come crawling for our help. Although I’m sure NATO would have to step in .
Can you see where this is going? The dip shits in Brussels will end up forcing NATOs hand and dragging us all into the mire of mires.
Afghan will look like a holiday by comparison.
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We need to stop involving ourselves in other people's wars. If Ukraine want to have a pop at Russia let them do it by themselves. Trump was right about NATO, too many freeloaders. We don't owe the Baltic states anything.
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If you went on form like football teams you wouldn't back the EU, not many of them countries have won a match for a couple of hundred years.
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I “feel” this will be the case. I’m no expert on global economics, like some profess to be on here.
A bit like marriage. You enter into a long term relationship with mortgages etc. Then it goes tits up. Divorce. Financial instability etc etc. It’s takes time to come out of the other side of this. A simplistic view I agree. And the EU divorce is an exponentially larger case of course. The principle is the same .
It’s been done to death on here about the “democracy” of the EU. Unelected people with huge power.now wanting their own army.
It's been done to death on here, with links to 'how' the EU operate, and showing that every position is in fact elected. But some people STILL believe the lies and distortions put out by the likes of the Mail and Express!
As to the EU wanting their own army, that's one person expressing her opinion, not the EU as a whole. You are aware that, to have their own army, the EU would have to pass a change to it's constitution and that one simple veto would prevent that happening don't you? Oh, I forgot, you won't get to read that in the Mail/Express.
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I “feel” this will be the case. I’m no expert on global economics, like some profess to be on here.
A bit like marriage. You enter into a long term relationship with mortgages etc. Then it goes tits up. Divorce. Financial instability etc etc. It’s takes time to come out of the other side of this. A simplistic view I agree. And the EU divorce is an exponentially larger case of course. The principle is the same .
It’s been done to death on here about the “democracy” of the EU. Unelected people with huge power.now wanting their own army.
It's been done to death on here, with links to 'how' the EU operate, and showing that every position is in fact elected. But some people STILL believe the lies and distortions put out by the likes of the Mail and Express!
As to the EU wanting their own army, that's one person expressing her opinion, not the EU as a whole. You are aware that, to have their own army, the EU would have to pass a change to it's constitution and that one simple veto would prevent that happening don't you? Oh, I forgot, you won't get to read that in the Mail/Express.
Given that the UK and US have proven to the other EU countries they are prepared to go behind their backs in security matters - I would reckon the possibility of a European Army has increased drastically over the past few weeks.
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Wilts, are you the person that NNK is suggesting is the “one persons opinion” on the EU starting its own army. ;)
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I’m noticing no different to my wallet or bank account content since brexit thank you.
That's kind of the point. In normal times, the economy grows and we all, on average, get richer. We had growth throttled off by Austerity a decade ago, and just as it was feebly beginning to rise again, we voted for Brexit and economic growth collapsed again. So, allowing for inflation, we are barely any richer as a country than we were 11 years ago.
We are standing still. While most of the developed world has got richer. You might not notice that because it is a slow process. But over 20 or 30 years you will.
There's a nastiness and disrespectfulness on this thread, from both sides of the argument, which is a real shame.
Now I'm of the opinion that the Brexit vote has made us marginally worse off short term as would have been expected from worsening our trade links to our biggest market. I've argued elsewhere that some of the negative effects will be overcome and therefore be short term, whilst the benefits of regaining sovereignty and democratic control are likely to be longer term in nature. Therefore whether Brexit is a success or failure should be considered long term after all Brexit was a long term decision.
However I'd like to challenge "we voted for Brexit and economic growth collapsed again" by reference to the ONS https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/abmi/pn2. Please explain where on this graph economic growth collapsed post referendum. Can see a collapse in the 2008 recession, can definitely see a collapse from the pandemic in 2020. As I argued there's signs of a marginal reduction 2016-2019 but a collapse??
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If you are going to discuss this accurately and honestly, you need to be clear what the terms of the discussion are.
I was talking about economic GROWTH. You, Hstripes, have posted a figure showing GDP not GDP growth.
GDP growth is the slope of that graph. A 1% drop in GDP growth has a huge effect on our economic well-being, but you're not going to see it very clearly in a graph of GDP.
This is what our GDP growth looked like before and after the Brexit vote.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/cpsprodpb/1635A/production/_109607909_optimised-q-on-q4-nc.png-2019-nov-11-nc.png)
Now, put that in international context. Every single other member of the G7 saw their GDP growth INCREASE by 1.5-2.5% between 2016-2018. The UK alone saw the thick end of a 1% drop.
The consequences of that are enormous. It's calculated that by the time COVID hit, our economic underperformance relative to the other G7 countries had cost us something north of £150bn in lost output.
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I'm not sure I care for being called dishonest. Are you alone setting the terms of the discussion?
I'm aware you were talking about GDP growth. The graph shows GDP by year hence GDP growth is reflected in the slope of the graph as you say (where is your problem with this). Again where is the collapse in growth? I admit there is a reduction. The web site allows you to zoom in to indicate this more clearly.
I am being honest and balanced. Didn't I say I agree that leaving the EU has meant the economy is smaller than it would have been. I'm not disputing this.
Where in the original post did you refer to other nations? You simply said "we voted for Brexit and economic growth collapsed again". i.e. in the UK not relative to other nations. It's that statement I was disputing.
Who is changing the terms of the discussion by bringing in international comparisons?
PS compared to other EU nations in the G7 our growth rate (dishonestly (?) excluded from your analysis) in 2019 was very competitive (UK 1.4%; France 1.5%; Germany 0.6%; Italy 0.3%) perhaps underlining my point that we shouldn't be too short-termist when assessing Brexit.
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I've said I think Brexit should be considered long term. Genuinely interested in the short term impact though. Maybe about to embarrass myself but that's fine as the forum is anonymous. Thought I'd take UK GDP from 1/1/16 to 1/1/20 https://www.statista.com/statistics/281744/gdp-of-the-united-kingdom/ (not much sign of a collapse in growth on this graph either btw :P) and see how much bigger the economy would have been if we had had the same growth rate as Germany (selected as in the EU and a large, stable economy so not prone to wild changes which would skew the data).
If same
At 1st Jan Actual GDP as Germany Economic growth rates
£m £m UK Germany
2016 2,043,909 2,043,909 1.7 2.23
2017 2,079,113 2,089,488 1.7 2.6
2018 2,115,296 2,143,815 1.3 1.57
2019 2,141,792 2,177,473 1.4 0.56
2020 2,172,511 2,189,667
Lost GDP £ 17,155,603,926
Approx Population 66,650,000
Lost GDP per head £ 257.40
So therefore without Brexit, assuming the economy had grown at the same rate as Germany, as at 1/1/20 the economy would have been £17bn larger and we'd each individually, on average, be just over £250 per year better off.
Happy to be corrected if my analysis is flawed as genuinely interested.
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The graph shows GDP by year hence GDP growth is reflected in the slope of the graph
Only if it takes inflation into account and the graph is in real terms.
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This is meant in the very best of spirits, but your analysis is flawed for two reasons.
Easy one first. You are dealing with just GDP in 2020 as the metric. But GDP is effectively annual income. And it has been below the hypothetical Germany growth rate figure for every year since Brexit. By your figures, £10bn in 2017, £28bn in 2018, £36bn in 2019 and £17bn in 2020. That all adds up. The total cumulative lossvof economic activity is £91bn by your figures. That's enough to give everyone in the country a 5 month break from income tax. It's enough to build 200 large new hospitals. That's gone. Lost.
And that's just taking your figures. But there's a bigger mistaken premise there. You are taking 2016's figures as the datum. But that already included the shuddering slowdown due to the Brexit vote. In 2015, our growth rate was 2.4%. it clattered down to 1.7% as a direct result of the Brexit outcome as investment pretty much stopped overnight.
And here's the thing. It stayed as high as 1.7% because all round the developed world, a mini boom was going on. Germany's growth rate leaped from 1.5% in 2015 to 2.6% in 2017. France from 1.1% to 2.2%. Even Italy rose from 0.8% to 1.7%.
So a fair analysis shouldn't compare our actual GDP growth to Germany's over that period. It should compare the CHANGE in our GDP growth to the change in comparable countries. Ours went down by about 0.75%. All the other G7 countries (whether doing well or poorly in 2015) went up by 1% or so. And that lasted until 2019. So from straight after the Brexit vote, our economy suddenly started performing 1.5-2% worse than expected. And that continued for 3 years. That means that by 2019 our GDP was about 5% lower than we might reasonably expected if we'd have experienced the miniboom that the rest of the G7 had. That's about £100bn in 2019. And that comes on top of losing about £60bn in 2018 and £30bn in 2017. £190bn in total. Eye watering amounts.
So as I said, the actual cost of the slowdown in economic growth that we alone suffered after 2016 was somewhere north of £150bn.
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I've said I think Brexit should be considered long term. Genuinely interested in the short term impact though. Maybe about to embarrass myself but that's fine as the forum is anonymous. Thought I'd take UK GDP from 1/1/16 to 1/1/20 https://www.statista.com/statistics/281744/gdp-of-the-united-kingdom/ (not much sign of a collapse in growth on this graph either btw :P) and see how much bigger the economy would have been if we had had the same growth rate as Germany (selected as in the EU and a large, stable economy so not prone to wild changes which would skew the data).
If same
At 1st Jan Actual GDP as Germany Economic growth rates
£m £m UK Germany
2016 2,043,909 2,043,909 1.7 2.23
2017 2,079,113 2,089,488 1.7 2.6
2018 2,115,296 2,143,815 1.3 1.57
2019 2,141,792 2,177,473 1.4 0.56
2020 2,172,511 2,189,667
Lost GDP £ 17,155,603,926
Approx Population 66,650,000
Lost GDP per head £ 257.40
So therefore without Brexit, assuming the economy had grown at the same rate as Germany, as at 1/1/20 the economy would have been £17bn larger and we'd each individually, on average, be just over £250 per year better off.
Happy to be corrected if my analysis is flawed as genuinely interested.
It would be good if you could put some meat on the bones of this and give an indication of where, how and when these benefits will materialise and if the will be any associated dis-benefits that come with them, such as subsidies to farmers, lost jobs because of cheaper imports etc.
If one believed the rhetoric the gates were to be thrown open and all the benefits would rush in putting Britain almost instantly at the top of the pile looking down on an envious but bereft Europe, swimming in money that we didn't have to pay those dastardly Europeans.
Added:
To make it a bit easier but also acknowledging there was no discussion about any delay to the benefits. Although the johnson was crowing about a deal being oven ready, it appears he forgot to put a bob in the gas meter, what would you suggest is a fair amount of time in which Britons can expect to see some benefit?
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I voted to remain but am quite happy to accept that we are out now, it was after all a democratic vote.
However I don’t recall the Brexiteers telling us tha all the benefits would rush in and that we would be instantly top of the pile.
There was the big exaggeration about the £350m per week.
I doubt that many people thought Brexit benefits would be instant.
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It's difficult to take any of your political commentary seriously hound if you cannot tell the difference between boris liar johnson and angela raynor.
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I voted to remain but am quite happy to accept that we are out now, it was after all a democratic vote.
However I don’t recall the Brexiteers telling us tha all the benefits would rush in and that we would be instantly top of the pile.
There was the big exaggeration about the £350m per week.
I doubt that many people thought Brexit benefits would be instant.
I can't understand for the life of me why the £350m NHS bus slogan is claimed to be such a clincher in the outcome of the result. After all, all the racist, selfish, thick, inconsiderate, what's mine's mine leave voters wouldn't really give a shit about the NHS, would they?
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In combination with this:
Nigel Farage's anti-migrant poster reported to police
Unison’s Dave Prentis said poster showing a queue of migrants and refugees incites racial hatred.
It appears it was enough, any professional sales person will tell you that the percentage of sales made with rational thought can be as low as 5%
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/nigel-farage-defends-ukip-breaking-point-poster-queue-of-migrants
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I voted to remain but am quite happy to accept that we are out now, it was after all a democratic vote.
However I don’t recall the Brexiteers telling us tha all the benefits would rush in and that we would be instantly top of the pile.
There was the big exaggeration about the £350m per week.
I doubt that many people thought Brexit benefits would be instant.
I can't understand for the life of me why the £350m NHS bus slogan is claimed to be such a clincher in the outcome of the result. After all, all the racist, selfish, thick, inconsiderate, what's mine's mine leave voters wouldn't really give a shit about the NHS, would they?
BB, I do think much was made of the slogan bus thing and some people did fall into the catergory of those that thought it was true.
Overall though I think most people saw through it but it was pushed hard by such as Farage and Johnson.
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It's difficult to take any of your political commentary seriously hound if you cannot tell the difference between boris liar johnson and angela raynor.
You are a strange one SR.
Where on Earth do you get that I was comparing Johnson to Raynor?
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I voted to remain but am quite happy to accept that we are out now, it was after all a democratic vote.
However I don’t recall the Brexiteers telling us tha all the benefits would rush in and that we would be instantly top of the pile.
There was the big exaggeration about the £350m per week.
I doubt that many people thought Brexit benefits would be instant.
I can't understand for the life of me why the £350m NHS bus slogan is claimed to be such a clincher in the outcome of the result. After all, all the racist, selfish, thick, inconsiderate, what's mine's mine leave voters wouldn't really give a shit about the NHS, would they?
There's a very interesting discussion to be had on the intentions behind the £350m claim.
But since you don't want to have that discussion but are spoiling for yet another pointless fight, I think I'll pass.
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You mean you can't answer, which is no surprise with your history. Just carry on with your grown-up politics eh!
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It's difficult to take any of your political commentary seriously hound if you cannot tell the difference between boris liar johnson and angela raynor.
You are a strange one SR.
Where on Earth do you get that I was comparing Johnson to Raynor?
Because you have stated you think all politicians are the same, you still stand by your comment I take it? tell me what goes through your mind at the polling station.
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Syd, what other people do in a polling station has nothing at all to do with you.
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selby, unless you are the new moderator my comments are exactly that, my comments :)
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I voted to remain but am quite happy to accept that we are out now, it was after all a democratic vote.
However I don’t recall the Brexiteers telling us tha all the benefits would rush in and that we would be instantly top of the pile.
There was the big exaggeration about the £350m per week.
I doubt that many people thought Brexit benefits would be instant.
I can't understand for the life of me why the £350m NHS bus slogan is claimed to be such a clincher in the outcome of the result. After all, all the racist, selfish, thick, inconsiderate, what's mine's mine leave voters wouldn't really give a shit about the NHS, would they?
BB, I do think much was made of the slogan bus thing and some people did fall into the catergory of those that thought it was true.
Overall though I think most people saw through it but it was pushed hard by such as Farage and Johnson.
Hound, the bus slogan was nowhere near as much a promise as Cameron and Osborne's threats of an instant recession, along with punishment budgets and pension reductions were. It was their lies that led me to vote remain.
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It's difficult to take any of your political commentary seriously hound if you cannot tell the difference between boris liar johnson and angela raynor.
You are a strange one SR.
Where on Earth do you get that I was comparing Johnson to Raynor?
Because you have stated you think all politicians are the same, you still stand by your comment I take it? tell me what goes through your mind at the polling station.
Yes I do, in that, generally, they are all in it for themselves.
I assume that because you despise Johnson so much that Raynor is your new superhero as you highlight those two as being poles apart.
Has Starmer slipped down the list a bit?
With regards to the polling station, I don’t go to it.
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It's difficult to take any of your political commentary seriously hound if you cannot tell the difference between boris liar johnson and angela raynor.
You are a strange one SR.
Where on Earth do you get that I was comparing Johnson to Raynor?
Because you have stated you think all politicians are the same, you still stand by your comment I take it? tell me what goes through your mind at the polling station.
Yes I do, in that, generally, they are all in it for themselves.
I assume that because you despise Johnson so much that Raynor is your new superhero as you highlight those two as being poles apart.
Has Starmer slipped down the list a bit?
With regards to the polling station, I don’t go to it.
You assume incorrectly hound, I only used her to emphasise your ridiculous position as I did with david lammy. Should we have politicians wear team strips and a number, would that help?
Calling all politicians the same is either lazy or ignorant or both and as you do so, what would it matter if I did despise johnson cos as you say they're all the same.
But, if you cannot see the difference between an untrustworthy liar without a conscience and someone that has been recognised for his service to the country then as I stand by what I said earlier
''It's difficult to take any of your political commentary seriously hound if you cannot tell the difference between boris liar johnson and angela raynor''
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They probably have genetic differences.
Would the strips they wear always be red and blue?
As for my political stance, I don’t have one.
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I voted to remain but am quite happy to accept that we are out now, it was after all a democratic vote.
However I don’t recall the Brexiteers telling us tha all the benefits would rush in and that we would be instantly top of the pile.
There was the big exaggeration about the £350m per week.
I doubt that many people thought Brexit benefits would be instant.
They need us more than we need them.
The German car industry will come to our rescue
UK will be first in line for a US trade deal
You don't remember any of them alongside the £350m they were insistent on saying would be coming back for the NHS? Your memory must be slipping hound. They are all easy to find, many times over, on google though to refresh yourself.
It's not leaving the EU that's at issue here - it never was - its how we left the EU and what the relationship with the EU (and the rest of the world would be afterwards. How the 'over ready, great deal' that Johnson promised he had would make the country better.
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I voted to remain but am quite happy to accept that we are out now, it was after all a democratic vote.
However I don’t recall the Brexiteers telling us tha all the benefits would rush in and that we would be instantly top of the pile.
There was the big exaggeration about the £350m per week.
I doubt that many people thought Brexit benefits would be instant.
I can't understand for the life of me why the £350m NHS bus slogan is claimed to be such a clincher in the outcome of the result. After all, all the racist, selfish, thick, inconsiderate, what's mine's mine leave voters wouldn't really give a shit about the NHS, would they?
BB, I do think much was made of the slogan bus thing and some people did fall into the catergory of those that thought it was true.
Overall though I think most people saw through it but it was pushed hard by such as Farage and Johnson.
Hound, the bus slogan was nowhere near as much a promise as Cameron and Osborne's threats of an instant recession, along with punishment budgets and pension reductions were. It was their lies that led me to vote remain.
Doesn't matter how many times the context of this is set out to you, you ignore it.
As I've pointed out up the post, the IMMEDIATE consequence of the 2016 vote was that our GDP growth tanked by between 1.75-2%. This was predictable and predicted, and corresponds to the sort of economic shock that you get in a typical recession. Osborne, rather hamfistedly said that there WOULD be a recession and it is true that there wasn't. But the one and only thing that saved us from actual recession was the mini-boom that the rest of the world experienced, which meant that our overall economic performance in the 2-3 years after the vote was just very bad, not disastrous. Osborne shouldn't have said there WOULD be a recession, but there was a need to hammer home to people just how severe the immediate economic hit would be.
As for the Budget, it is absolutely correct that, if we had stuck to the deficit targets that we had in 2016, there would have had to be swingeing spending cuts or tax rise after the Brexit vote. Hammond, who replaced Osborne chose to manage it differently, effectively choosing to extend Austerity and depressed Govt spending for another 5 years. Again, the basic principle of the point was correct: The Brexit vote blew a massive hole in the Govt finances and we will be paying for that for years. Punishment extended.
What Osborne said weren't "lies". They were "predictions". You cannot, as a matter of principle, lie about what is going to happen in the future.
That is entirely different from the bare faced lies on matters of established Objective Truth that Cummings based the Leave campaign on - from the £350m figure (which the National Audit Office instructed Leave to withdraw - and they didn't) to the claim that 80 million Turks were on the verge of getting the right to move next door,
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I don't care what you say, Cameron and Osborne LIED. Just like Cameron LIED about staying on as PM. It is probably those lies that lead many people like me to vote remain, probably resulting in the vote being closer than it would have been if those blatant lies weren't told.
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Wilts, you forgot about a European army and less federalisation when you listed the lies politicians were spouting, they seem to be the flavour of the month on Europe now, the French must have found someone else they think could be in the front line while they run things now.
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I voted to remain but am quite happy to accept that we are out now, it was after all a democratic vote.
However I don’t recall the Brexiteers telling us tha all the benefits would rush in and that we would be instantly top of the pile.
There was the big exaggeration about the £350m per week.
I doubt that many people thought Brexit benefits would be instant.
They need us more than we need them.
The German car industry will come to our rescue
UK will be first in line for a US trade deal
You don't remember any of them alongside the £350m they were insistent on saying would be coming back for the NHS? Your memory must be slipping hound. They are all easy to find, many times over, on google though to refresh yourself.
It's not leaving the EU that's at issue here - it never was - its how we left the EU and what the relationship with the EU (and the rest of the world would be afterwards. How the 'over ready, great deal' that Johnson promised he had would make the country better.
But were they going to all come rushing in on day one as SR suggested.
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I don't care what you say, Cameron and Osborne LIED. Just like Cameron LIED about staying on as PM. It is probably those lies that lead many people like me to vote remain, probably resulting in the vote being closer than it would have been if those blatant lies weren't told.
The Remain side were bang on about the substance. Brexit would cause a severe economic slowdown, the Pound would tank, inflation would rise and real wages would fall.
Every one of those came to pass.
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And your refusal to accept your obsessive one-sided take on things has been typical since you started your anti-everything government agenda. Like this instance, when you claim Cameron and Osborne's claims of an instant recession, along with punishment budgets and pension reductions weren't lies, but merely predictions. Yet, Boris and co's claims of £350m for the NHS wasn't a prediction, but a lie!
Your insistence on one set of rules to suit your agendas and another set of rules to suit those against your agendas is legendary.
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BB
Go on. You've roped me in. I will patiently explain why the £350m figure is simply in a different league.
1) EVERYBODY who looked at the issues knew that the consequence of a Leave vote would be a very serious economic hit. Osborne's claim that there would be a recession was technically incorrect, but we DID take the sort of economic hit that you get in a decent sized recession. His claim was made to illustrate a point. It was an overstatement based on a fundamentally correct analysis.
2) Everyone who took any time to look at the issues knew that we didn't give £350m/week to the EU, even before the net benefits that we got from the EU were taken into account. It was a fraudulent claim. Cummings KNEW it was fraudulent. He's on record as saying it was a deliberate tactic, to so enrage the other side that it would throw them off balance. The lie was the whole point. He deliberately poisoned the debate by having the cheek to make such a knowingly fraudulent claim.
Comparing the two is simply ridiculous.
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‘Go on. You've roped me in. I will patiently explain’
That’s Billy speak for ‘let me jump on my soap box as I attempt to condescend, ridicule, and belittle. I shall pretend I don’t really want to do it, but the truth is I need this to give me a sense of meaning’
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BST. I've just had a thought. Are you that 'Insulate Britain' motorway Eco-warrior bloke who was on GMTV today? It's just that you share the same annoying condescending attitude that makes me think there can't be two people in the world as patronising as that.
Right back to the main topic. Why do you ignore my point? What I said was I can't understand for the life of me why the £350m NHS bus slogan is claimed to be such a clincher in the outcome of the result, when the blatant scaremongering employed by the Remainers was, in my opinion, far more influential in making people decide to vote remain.
Yeah? No?
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BB
The point is, if you read my post, what you call "scaremongering" was based on honest analysis, and broadly came to pass. We HAVE had a massive economic hit due to the vote. We HAVE had a huge hit to public finances. You have been determined for 5 years now to ignore that. Do you actually accept that we have had these problems as a result of the vote? Maybe that's the issue.
The £350m claim was known by those who ran with it to be fraudulent. They didn't shout that number to inform debate. They did it, by their own admission to wind up the other side.
On a topic as important and divisive as this one, with no chance of revisiting the decision for a generation, that was a disgraceful thing to do.
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You say the scaremongering was based on honest analysis, I say it was scaremongering based on worse scenarios. My point is, thousands, neigh millions share my view. Scaremongering was not exclusive to Cameron and Osborne. It was rife on TV and social media 24/7 by shed loads of Remainers.
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Do you accept that we have had a serious economic hit since the vote?
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They probably have genetic differences.
Would the strips they wear always be red and blue?
As for my political stance, I don’t have one.
Scenario ..................... a morning at the polling booth .......................... please can you help me
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They probably have genetic differences.
Would the strips they wear always be red and blue?
As for my political stance, I don’t have one.
Scenario ..................... a morning at the polling booth .......................... please can you help me
I have already told you, I don’t go to the polling booths.
By the way, you seem to be constantly trolling my posts.
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An economic hit was expected after the vote.
Do you accept that we have had a serious economic hit since the vote?
An economic hit was expected after the vote.
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Do you accept that we have had a SERIOUS economic hit?
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They probably have genetic differences.
Would the strips they wear always be red and blue?
As for my political stance, I don’t have one.
Scenario ..................... a morning at the polling booth .......................... please can you help me
I have already told you, I don’t go to the polling booths.
By the way, you seem to be constantly trolling my posts.
So who helps you fill out the ballot paper?
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Do you accept that we have had a SERIOUS economic hit?
Have we had a serious economic hit? Yes. Is it entirely down to Brexit? No.
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They probably have genetic differences.
Would the strips they wear always be red and blue?
As for my political stance, I don’t have one.
Scenario ..................... a morning at the polling booth .......................... please can you help me
I have already told you, I don’t go to the polling booths.
By the way, you seem to be constantly trolling my posts.
So who helps you fill out the ballot paper?
You are very strange SR.
Also, I’m not getting dragged into one of your weird ner ner ner type of arguments.
Find someone else to fall out with.
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They probably have genetic differences.
Would the strips they wear always be red and blue?
As for my political stance, I don’t have one.
Scenario ..................... a morning at the polling booth .......................... please can you help me
I have already told you, I don’t go to the polling booths.
By the way, you seem to be constantly trolling my posts.
So who helps you fill out the ballot paper?
You are very strange SR.
Also, I’m not getting dragged into one of your weird ner ner ner type of arguments.
Find someone else to fall out with.
It's a serious question hound, who helps you with your postal vote?
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Do you accept that we have had a SERIOUS economic hit?
Have we had a serious economic hit? Yes. Is it entirely down to Brexit? No.
Right. So in 2015 we had the highest GDP growth rate in the G7. In 2017 we had the lowest. Why do you think such a rapid drop in economic performance relative to our nearest equivalents happened?
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Watch my lips.
THERE WAS NO INSTANT RECESSION.
THERE WAS NO PUNISHMENT BUDGETS.
THERE WERE NO PENSION REDUCTIONS.
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it's not over by any means yet
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Watch my lips.
THERE WAS NO INSTANT RECESSION.
THERE WAS NO PUNISHMENT BUDGETS.
THERE WERE NO PENSION REDUCTIONS.
Just impossible.
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Watch my lips.
THERE WAS NO INSTANT RECESSION.
THERE WAS NO PUNISHMENT BUDGETS.
THERE WERE NO PENSION REDUCTIONS.
I sometimes think Britain gets the government it deserves if this is the level of debate and others struggle with ballot papers.
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The Treasury predictions of the economic consequences of a Leave vote indicated the scale of the damage that we could expect. The actual specific outcomes depend on many other factors. The Treasury was showing what would happen in the absence of other factors which can mitigate the immediate pain but at long term costs. In principle they were bang on.
We lost something between £100-200bn in economic output in the three years after the vote. That's the scale of hit you get from a recession. We didn't have an actual recession primarily because we were helped by a global boom. But relative to the rest of the G7, we went backwards very quickly. That's what happens if one country has a recession while others go along as normal.
The economic hit was also mitigated by the Bank of England dropping interest rates. But that comes with a big cost. Inflation spiked and we had nearly three years of wages dropping in real terms.
We didn't have immediate swingeing Budget costs. Instead we spread them out over the next five-ten years. Punishment extended.
We didn't cut pensions. No-one said we WOULD. Rather it was shown as a possible consequence of the hole in Govt finances that the Leave vote was predicted to produce (and DID produce). Instead we cut working benefits, support for local authorities and capital investment from the levels that had been planned. Political decisions to focus the pain elsewhere.
The damage was predicted. It happened. Calling that a lie on a par with those deliberately propagated by the Leave side in order to wreck any chance of rational debate (as openly bragged about by Cummings) is what happens when you are obsessed by bothsidesism.
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So you keep saying! But, getting back to the point, what I can't understand for the life of me is why the £350m NHS bus slogan is claimed to be such a clincher in the outcome of the result. After all, all the racist, selfish, thick, inconsiderate, what's mine's mine leave voters wouldn't really give a shit about the NHS, would they?
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On the flip side, I don't see mass unemployment, mass lack of investment or significant corporate failure either. Has it been about as I expected? Probably better given covid and the opportunities of brexit still remain as do some risks but it's not the big disaster many of you expected/wanted in some cases.
It still remains that if we don't like the outcome of brexit that's not the fault of brexit but the government in place.
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So you keep saying! But, getting back to the point, what I can't understand for the life of me is why the £350m NHS bus slogan is claimed to be such a clincher in the outcome of the result. After all, all the racist, selfish, thick, inconsiderate, what's mine's mine leave voters wouldn't really give a shit about the NHS, would they?
Yep. Should have trusted my first instinct. BB once again not interested in actually discussing. Just wanting another argument.
Best of luck.
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On the flip side, I don't see mass unemployment, mass lack of investment or significant corporate failure either. Has it been about as I expected? Probably better given covid and the opportunities of brexit still remain as do some risks but it's not the big disaster many of you expected/wanted in some cases.
It still remains that if we don't like the outcome of brexit that's not the fault of brexit but the government in place.
On business investment.
https://www.ft.com/__origami/service/image/v2/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fcom.ft.imagepublish.upp-prod-us.s3.amazonaws.com%2F1de15054-0476-11ea-a984-fbbacad9e7dd?source=google-amp&fit=scale-down&width=500
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So you keep saying! But, getting back to the point, what I can't understand for the life of me is why the £350m NHS bus slogan is claimed to be such a clincher in the outcome of the result. After all, all the racist, selfish, thick, inconsiderate, what's mine's mine leave voters wouldn't really give a shit about the NHS, would they?
Yep. Should have trusted my first instinct. BB once again not interested in actually discussing. Just wanting another argument.
Best of luck.
I think I'll start deploying your "grown-up" politics policy as a way to ignore answering questions in future. It is effective in the eyes of the blind, I'll give you that.
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If people voted to be better off economically in the short term there is a discussion to be had, if people went into the booth to determine self government and independence there is no argument and discussion to be had.
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If people voted to be better off economically in the short term there is a discussion to be had, if people went into the booth to determine self government and independence there is no argument and discussion to be had.
I didn't realise there was choices selby.
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If people voted to be better off economically in the short term there is a discussion to be had, if people went into the booth to determine self government and independence there is no argument and discussion to be had.
I didn't realise there was choices selby.
If people voted to be better off economically in the short term there is a discussion to be had, if people went into the booth to determine self government and independence there is no argument and discussion to be had.
I didn't realise there was choices selby.
You can have sausage and chippings, sausage and beans, or beans and chippings.
That’s choices!
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I caught something on the wireless earlier this week that said the UK was expected to have the fasted GDP growth across the G7 countries this year. So maybe some recovery is in sight?
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I caught something on the wireless earlier this week that said the UK was expected to have the fasted GDP growth across the G7 countries this year. So maybe some recovery is in sight?
Our resident genius will put you right about that.
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Oh yes there was Syd, if you believe in freedom and independence there was only one way to vote, and that was to get out before things got far worse and the EU becomes what some always wanted and it will become a federal state.
And politicians like Starmer and his entourage going back and forwards colluding openly with their mates in Europe were the nail in the coffin of a remain vote for many.
Their actions were the opposite to the lies they were spinning, and were seen through by the electorate.
You gobbled the lies and many more like you, that's why you lost.
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I caught something on the wireless earlier this week that said the UK was expected to have the fasted GDP growth across the G7 countries this year. So maybe some recovery is in sight?
That will be the OECD forecast Herbert, they said it will be slightly less than predicted last quarter (tho I guess the latest energy issues and the opening of more travel routes might affect it again).
The UK will have the largest growth - because it had the largest fall. The countries which took a smaller hit will have lower growth. All fairly standard and mentioned on here several times previously.
This explains it:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/
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I caught something on the wireless earlier this week that said the UK was expected to have the fasted GDP growth across the G7 countries this year. So maybe some recovery is in sight?
We had the biggest drop in GDP of any of the G7 countries in 2020, because our lockdowns were longer and harder than any other country. There's a natural bounce back when lockdowns are finally lifted and the economy starts to fire up again. if all economies bounced back to 2019 levels of output this year, by definition we would have the highest growth rate this year. Because we were starting from the biggest dip.
None of that really has anything to do with Brexit. If you want to see the effect of that, you need to see beyond the transient effect of COVID. The OBR is predicting that our long term GDP growth rate from about 2023 will be around 1.6-1.8%. Compared with the consistent growth rate that we had between 1950 and the start of Austerity and also in the couple of years before the Brexit vote) of about 2.3-2.5%. So the expectation is that, into the foreseeable future, the economy will grow 0.5-0.9% less than it used to do. Doesn't sound like much of a difference, but it compounds over time. If that goes on for 20 years it'd mean that every single year we would be producing about £400bn less in economic output than we would have been if we'd kept to the long-established trend.
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Oh yes there was Syd, if you believe in freedom and independence there was only one way to vote, and that was to get out before things got far worse and the EU becomes what some always wanted and it will become a federal state.
And politicians like Starmer and his entourage going back and forwards colluding openly with their mates in Europe were the nail in the coffin of a remain vote for many.
Their actions were the opposite to the lies they were spinning, and were seen through by the electorate.
You gobbled the lies and many more like you, that's why you lost.
And yet. Five years after we voted to leave, there is still no sign of the EU being any closer to becoming a federal state. We f**ked up our economic future to protect ourselves from a hypothetical demon from the future that has still never shown up.
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I caught something on the wireless earlier this week that said the UK was expected to have the fasted GDP growth across the G7 countries this year. So maybe some recovery is in sight?
That will be the OECD forecast Herbert, they said it will be slightly less than predicted last quarter (tho I guess the latest energy issues and the opening of more travel routes might affect it again).
The UK will have the largest growth - because it had the largest fall. The countries which took a smaller hit will have lower growth. All fairly standard and mentioned on here several times previously.
This explains it:
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/
Although of course several keen 'Brexiteers' and advocates of Johnson's Hard Brexit deal did say they wanted a smaller economy after Brexit - so I am sure they will be along soon to tell us why this growth is a bad thing. I shall leave it to them.
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Wilts - you are all in favour of locking down at every opportunity, but didn't expect any repercussions?
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I caught something on the wireless earlier this week that said the UK was expected to have the fasted GDP growth across the G7 countries this year. So maybe some recovery is in sight?
Our resident genius will put you right about that.
hound has the monk on
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So a fair analysis shouldn't compare our actual GDP growth to Germany's over that period. It should compare the CHANGE in our GDP growth to the change in comparable countries. Ours went down by about 0.75%. All the other G7 countries (whether doing well or poorly in 2015) went up by 1% or so. And that lasted until 2019. So from straight after the Brexit vote, our economy suddenly started performing 1.5-2% worse than expected. And that continued for 3 years. That means that by 2019 our GDP was about 5% lower than we might reasonably expected if we'd have experienced the miniboom that the rest of the G7 had. That's about £100bn in 2019. And that comes on top of losing about £60bn in 2018 and £30bn in 2017. £190bn in total. Eye watering amounts.
Firstly thank you for a refreshingly detailed, well-reasoned and intelligent response. I'm just glad no-one found any fault in my basic Maths!
On your first point I was setting off to find out how much smaller the economy was due to Brexit (at 1/1/20 before the pandemic made any analysis impossible) but you are correct the cumulative of my workings give an estimated overall cost of Brexit to that point, which is more relevant to the thread.
Your second point is a valid one - basically the UK was outperforming comparable countries before Brexit and to be more accurate that should be taken into account - therefore I accept the overall estimate of a £92bn cost implicit in my calculation is an underestimate.
However I'm unconvinced with some of the assumptions behind your 1.5-2% pa loss in growth and think your £190bn estimate appears bullish.
Growth rates UK Germany France Italy Implied UK
2015 2.4 1.5 1.1 0.8
2016 1.7 2.2 1.1 1.3
2017 1.7 2.6 2.2 1.7 3.4
2018 1.3 1.6 1.9 0.9 3
2019 1.4 0.6 1.5 0.3 3.1
Avg 2017-9 1.5 1.8 1.7 1.1
1) You're assuming the 1% economic boost we'd have enjoyed in 2017 would continue in 18/19. In spite of the fact (above) this didn't happen in comparative countries.
2) You're assuming we would have enjoyed a 1% boost in 2017 even though our economy is very different to Germany/France/Italy in terms of lower % export of manufactured goods which led much of the mini-boom in 2017 in those countries. (US growth fell from 2.7 to 2.3 between 2015 and 2017)
3) You're assuming the 0.7% fall due to Brexit would have persisted at the same level in 18/19. Brexit caused an immediate economic shock, like you say due to a sudden stop in investment, the reverberations of such a shock would be expected to lessen in time on annual growth. Evidenced from our growth rate not dropping as rapidly as comparable countries in 18/19.
If we had enjoyed economic growth 1.7% higher in 2017-9 in each year we would have had the highest growth rates in the G7, significantly higher growth rates esp by 2019 than our biggest European partners and 3 years running of the highest UK growth rates since 2003 and the 2008 recession. This appears unrealistic.
Looking at average growth rates between 2017 and 2019 we are not very far behind Germany and France despite Brexit - only 0.2-0.3% per year.
Therefore a loss of economic growth of between 1.2 and 1.5% pa due to Brexit assuming the UK would have continued to enjoy such a large economic advantage over comparable countries from 2015 right into 2019. This assumption though seems unlikely to me so I would suggest something even lower than this.
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BST. I've just had a thought. Are you that 'Insulate Britain' motorway Eco-warrior bloke who was on GMTV today? It's just that you share the same annoying condescending attitude that makes me think there can't be two people in the world as patronising as that.
Right back to the main topic. Why do you ignore my point? What I said was I can't understand for the life of me why the £350m NHS bus slogan is claimed to be such a clincher in the outcome of the result, when the blatant scaremongering employed by the Remainers was, in my opinion, far more influential in making people decide to vote remain.
Yeah? No?
Blatant scaremongering you say....
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/statement_by_michael_gove_boris_johnson_and_gisela_stuart_for_the_sun_vote_leave_to_cut_vat_on_fuel.html?fbclid=IwAR2-RFT2ngaPmUelSuzU43ULtdTNnR8FUiuZjv5a_w9W-5nxeiRCRTOkRDA
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Oh yes there was Syd, if you believe in freedom and independence there was only one way to vote, and that was to get out before things got far worse and the EU becomes what some always wanted and it will become a federal state.
And politicians like Starmer and his entourage going back and forwards colluding openly with their mates in Europe were the nail in the coffin of a remain vote for many.
Their actions were the opposite to the lies they were spinning, and were seen through by the electorate.
You gobbled the lies and many more like you, that's why you lost.
Lies you say?....
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1440610259278524424/pu/vid/1280x720/ehUFsKrOdSDG12r6.mp4?tag=12
The problem is, so what? What are the consequences for him of being found out with his lying?
So far, bugger all.
None of this seems to gain any real traction anymore with a tired and apathetic electorate and a media that barely seems to be able to mount much of a challenge, (and at the tabloid end simply go out of their way to compound the problem). It's straight from the Donald Trump play-book now in the UK - lie so much that lying just becomes the norm and accepted by people like selby, (and he's not alone by a very long way!). That is the absolute tragedy of Trump and Johnson - the massive undermining of public standards and the obliteration of the expectation that leaders should even attempt to be truthful.
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Sounds like selby wants politicians to have the freedom to lie their f**king heads off
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You can always tell when Boris is lying.
His lips move.
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''Frost throws ECJ spanner in works on Northern Ireland protocol''
The penny has dropped tyke, you are Lord David Frost and I demand my £5.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/11/frost-throws-ecj-spanner-in-works-on-northern-ireland-protocol
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Seems there's a minor dint to BoJo's high tech/high wage vision
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58820599
I wonder how many more there'll be.
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Promise promises. Oh how easily the gullible were led....
(https://i.imgur.com/dPD4EAo.jpg)
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the guardian
''Brexit minister seeks to tear up key part of his own agreement''
''Frost seems to be getting round to his point now: in brief, that the Northern Ireland protocol his government sought, signed up to and then trumpeted loudly, is so hated and unworkable, it would be imprudent of the EU to try to enforce it''
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I read the transcript of Frost's speech today. If his intention is to make everyone of us embarrassed to be British, he's doing a fine job.
When you strip away the waffle, the core of what he's saying is that the NI Protocol is shit and we only signed it because we were under intolerable time pressure in October 2019. So it should be ripped up and re-written. In a way that means the EU accepts that the single market boundary between Ireland and NI, or between NI and GB is effectively not policed.
What f**king planet is he on?
1) We were told in 2019 that the NI Protocol was in the biggest diplomatic success since mankind learned to grunt.
2) Yes there was an intolerable time pressure in 2019. Because Johnson chose not to ask for an extension to the transition period. It's like saying it's not fair your nose gets broken when you are repeatedly smashing your face into a wall
3) People on the Leave side have pointed out consistently for 5 years that there is no solution to the Irish problem that has GB out of the SM, without either a border between NI and Ireland, or between NI and GB. The Brexit death cult has continuously ignored that. And now they are acting astonished that the other side actually meant it.
So now there is no solution that doesn't involve one of these three outcomes.
1) We admit how f**king stupid we were to leave the SM and ask to rejoin.
2) The EU decides the SM isn't actually that important and agrees to ignore the boundary of it, where it meets the UK.
3) One or other side of the NI sectarian divided is told it has lost, with all the consequences for the GFA.
1 cannot happen under this Govt.
The EU cannot as a basic principle accept 2.
So steel yourself for 3.
And we were sneered at as playing Project Fear games in 2016 when we said this was where Leave had to end up dumping us.
What the f**k have you people done?
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Actually, I forgot the aspect of Frost's speech that is most shocking.
He's complaining that it is intolerable that there should be a border between GB and NI.
But hang on. In the 2019 election campaign, Johnson insisted repeatedly that the Protocol that Frost had agreed, and Johnson had signed absolutely did not require a border between GB and NI.
They wouldn't recognise truth and honour if it locked them in the b*llocks, this shower of barrow boy shite.
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Cummings is at it again. Claiming the policy all along was to get any deal in 2019 and then ditch bits that we didn't like after winning an election.
And folk wonder why no-one trusts the Brexit Death Cult.
By the way, he's not saying this to criticise the Govt. He thinks this is exacu the way that treaties should be negotiated.
Stop and think what this says about Johnson and Cummings's attitude towards the electorate. Here's Cummings admitting they got an unworkable deal in 2019, but they then won the Election on the basis they Got Brexit Done. Knowing full well that they were planning to ditch that deal.
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I'll stick my head up on this as a leave voter in 2016 .
As I've said many times on here I was never a fan of the EU and even less so from the early 90's so when the chance came in 2016 to vote to leave I took it having had false promises twice from Tony Blair to have a referendum which weren't delivered .
Hand on heart I was always wary of the referendum delivered by a Tory government I won't deny that but I could never envisage it happening under a Labour one and in any case I always thought to myself at least you can always kick a Tory government out so I voted to leave and take my chances so to speak .
I don't regret voting the way I did but I do regret allowing what's occurred since 2016 and playing out today .
I didn't want this and I doubt any leave voter did .
Knowing what I know now and having given this some thought I'd probably would have not voted at all because I wouldn't have had any position at all .
I couldn't have voted to remain because I didn't agree with what the EU had become but neither did I want to see the country it finds itself today .
The whole thing since the referendum result has played out as a shyte show with nobody in parliament on either side coming out of this too well at all .
My leave vote ties me to this no doubt and the finger pointing in my direction is something I'll have to accept .
The only thing I can say is I never wanted it to play out this way and knowing what I know now I'd have stayed at home on the day of the referendum in 2016 .
If the Labour Party were to campaign on closer ties to the EU whilst not rejoining totally then I'd be prepared to support that in principle .
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I do agree on some of these points. I still fundamentally believe leaving the EU was the right thing to do, though the way policies have been enacted since that point have been really poor. I wonder how many opposition MPs wish they'd backed Theresa May now?
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3) People on the Leave side have pointed out consistently for 5 years that there is no solution to the Irish problem that has GB out of the SM, without either a border between NI and Ireland, or between NI and GB. The Brexit death cult has continuously ignored that. And now they are acting astonished that the other side actually meant it.
As you point out BST, we are feeling rather anxious about the future over here in Northern Ireland. And the present is a major downgrade already with non-availability of so many perishable items.
What I cannot understand is that the DUP went along with all of this when they of all people should know the impossibility of a solution.
It really is as simple as this (from 2019):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Yv24cM2os
Edit: By the way a reminder that NI as a whole voted remain. Very roughly speaking, Unionists, led by the DUP, voted about 60-40 to leave while nationalists voted about 80-20 to remain, giving an overall approx 60-40 to remain.
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I'll stick my head up on this as a leave voter in 2016 .
As I've said many times on here I was never a fan of the EU and even less so from the early 90's so when the chance came in 2016 to vote to leave I took it having had false promises twice from Tony Blair to have a referendum which weren't delivered .
Hand on heart I was always wary of the referendum delivered by a Tory government I won't deny that but I could never envisage it happening under a Labour one and in any case I always thought to myself at least you can always kick a Tory government out so I voted to leave and take my chances so to speak .
I don't regret voting the way I did but I do regret allowing what's occurred since 2016 and playing out today .
I didn't want this and I doubt any leave voter did .
Knowing what I know now and having given this some thought I'd probably would have not voted at all because I wouldn't have had any position at all .
I couldn't have voted to remain because I didn't agree with what the EU had become but neither did I want to see the country it finds itself today .
The whole thing since the referendum result has played out as a shyte show with nobody in parliament on either side coming out of this too well at all .
My leave vote ties me to this no doubt and the finger pointing in my direction is something I'll have to accept .
The only thing I can say is I never wanted it to play out this way and knowing what I know now I'd have stayed at home on the day of the referendum in 2016 .
If the Labour Party were to campaign on closer ties to the EU whilst not rejoining totally then I'd be prepared to support that in principle .
I could not have said that any better about myself Tyke. Exactly how i was and am about Brexit.
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Here (in his own words) is the explanation for what Frost is doing and why now. They are not attacking the NI because it doesn't work - but because it is working too well:
https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1445058698380992517
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Voted to stay in, was surprised by the out vote, now totally behind being out after the attitude of the EU towards this country and the treacherous politicians and remainer's who are not willing to accept a democratic vote by the people, and continue to undermine our every effort to make a success of the fact we are out.
As far as the situation in Ireland is concerned as long as when the doodoo hits the fan they start throwing their little toys about it is in Brussels or Paris where the problem is I don't give a damn, and it might concentrate a few minds. After all it is decisions and rules being imposed over there that are causing the problems.
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As far as the situation in Ireland is concerned as long as when the doodoo hits the fan they start throwing their little toys about it is in Brussels or Paris where the problem is I don't give a damn, and it might concentrate a few minds. After all it is decisions and rules being imposed over there that are causing the problems.
Selby
I respect your football views, but the above unfortunately is as far from true as a flat earth.
The problem in Ireland is the result of centuries of British plantation and carving up of the country and its resources. This led to the uprising in 1916 and partition in 1921. This in turn led to all the legacy issues of unfairness in the newly created Northern Ireland, which has since inception always been part of the UK, well before the EU existed. The Troubles were the inevitable result of decades of continued unfairness and these were doused by the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 signed by the British Government. The British Government has now consciously taken a path which involves removing this solution. The fault is 100% squarely on the British side from centuries ago right up until now. Blaming sectarian tensions and problems in Northern Ireland on the EU is nonsensical and not based on any Irish history. The very rules that are known to have been crucial in creating peace in Northern Ireland in 1998 are being stripped away and ignored by the British Government.
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I'll stick my head up on this as a leave voter in 2016 .
As I've said many times on here I was never a fan of the EU and even less so from the early 90's so when the chance came in 2016 to vote to leave I took it having had false promises twice from Tony Blair to have a referendum which weren't delivered .
Hand on heart I was always wary of the referendum delivered by a Tory government I won't deny that but I could never envisage it happening under a Labour one and in any case I always thought to myself at least you can always kick a Tory government out so I voted to leave and take my chances so to speak .
I don't regret voting the way I did but I do regret allowing what's occurred since 2016 and playing out today .
I didn't want this and I doubt any leave voter did .
Knowing what I know now and having given this some thought I'd probably would have not voted at all because I wouldn't have had any position at all .
I couldn't have voted to remain because I didn't agree with what the EU had become but neither did I want to see the country it finds itself today .
The whole thing since the referendum result has played out as a shyte show with nobody in parliament on either side coming out of this too well at all .
My leave vote ties me to this no doubt and the finger pointing in my direction is something I'll have to accept .
The only thing I can say is I never wanted it to play out this way and knowing what I know now I'd have stayed at home on the day of the referendum in 2016 .
If the Labour Party were to campaign on closer ties to the EU whilst not rejoining totally then I'd be prepared to support that in principle .
I could not have said that any better about myself Tyke. Exactly how i was and am about Brexit.
You simply can't renegade on deals that were struck with the EU , it's an indefensible position .
It's an embarrassment to me as someone with my finger prints on this .
The Tory Party is the Tory Party who have made lives pretty miserable at times for people in this country but none the less there was a certain amount of honour and duty amongst them with people such as Ken Clarke and Heseltine who played a major part of attracting business to Liverpool and a city completely on it's ass through Thatcher .
I really don't know what this lot in power is today , I haven't the words .
The problem is just as long as the Tory Party is in power and remains in power then that's all that matters to those within the party and many of its traditional voters .
That's where they differ to myself because I can't support the Labour Party in the way these people can the Tories if I fundamentally disagree with its position .
If that's a flaw then it's a flaw but there you are .
I keep thinking to myself did leaving the EU inevitably lead to this ?
Was it always going to be this way or has the process being a total feck up from 2016 from everyone involved in parliament and closely associated with it ?
My gut instinct is total mismanagement and feck up .
This isn't some post for myself to wriggle off the hook as a leaver voter and never a lover of the EU .
My point is the democratic vote was delivered to parliament and it ain't a crime for anyone to vote they way they do .
However it's a crime to mismanage the process , try to stop it , have another vote in order to achieve a different result , fail to compromise , use it to gain personally , not honour the promises made and certainly not then renegade on deals done .
I'll take my share of the blame and subsequent criticism .
I wish the fecker had never happened and that's my feeling right now .
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Was it always going to be this way or has the process being a total feck up from 2016 from everyone involved in parliament and closely associated with it ?
My gut instinct is total mismanagement and feck up .
I agree with so much of what you say Tyke, with one caveat.
Total mismangement, combined with a large dose of bad faith and personal ambitions, has led to nearly all of this. The exception is that the situation in Northern Ireland was totally 100% inevitable following a hard Brexit and leaving the SM/CU.
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Was it always going to be this way or has the process being a total feck up from 2016 from everyone involved in parliament and closely associated with it ?
My gut instinct is total mismanagement and feck up .
I agree with so much of what you say Tyke, with one caveat.
Total mismangement, combined with a large dose of bad faith and personal ambitions, has led to nearly all of this. The exception is that the situation in Northern Ireland was totally 100% inevitable following a hard Brexit and leaving the SM/CU.
Exactly. We could have left the EU and still remained in the Single Market. Not only would the NI problem not have arisen, the supply and driver shortages wouldn't have happened either.
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It is as clear a case of bad faith by a politician as you will ever see. Johnson knew damn well that the deal Frost negotiated and he signed required a trade border between GB and NI with checks on goods passing over the border. It is written in the document in black and white. But he repeatedly insisted during the election campaign that there would be no checks on goods passing between GB and NI. Absolute cast iron lying.
Now Frost is saying that an arrangement that requires checks on goods is unacceptable and the agreement must be torn up and renegotiated.
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Was it always going to be this way or has the process being a total feck up from 2016 from everyone involved in parliament and closely associated with it ?
My gut instinct is total mismanagement and feck up .
I agree with so much of what you say Tyke, with one caveat.
Total mismangement, combined with a large dose of bad faith and personal ambitions, has led to nearly all of this. The exception is that the situation in Northern Ireland was totally 100% inevitable following a hard Brexit and leaving the SM/CU.
Exactly. We could have left the EU and still remained in the Single Market. Not only would the NI problem not have arisen, the supply and driver shortages wouldn't have happened either.
And according to opinion polls in 2017, 70% of the country would have accepted that. The Labour party would have supported that outcome - it was their own policy once Corbyn had been talked sense to.
But the Tory party unilaterally decided that wasn't what people voted for in 2016...
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Was it always going to be this way or has the process being a total feck up from 2016 from everyone involved in parliament and closely associated with it ?
My gut instinct is total mismanagement and feck up .
I agree with so much of what you say Tyke, with one caveat.
Total mismangement, combined with a large dose of bad faith and personal ambitions, has led to nearly all of this. The exception is that the situation in Northern Ireland was totally 100% inevitable following a hard Brexit and leaving the SM/CU.
Exactly. We could have left the EU and still remained in the Single Market. Not only would the NI problem not have arisen, the supply and driver shortages wouldn't have happened either.
And according to opinion polls in 2017, 70% of the country would have accepted that. The Labour party would have supported that outcome - it was their own policy once Corbyn had been talked sense to.
But the Tory party unilaterally decided that wasn't what people voted for in 2016...
We were not asked to vote on it BST. It was IN or OUT
The whole point of the EU for me was it should have been a trading platform for all the member countries as the Common Market was before. That is all it should be.
It’s all the rest of it that is flawed and that is what the British people were voting against
( only just of course ) in 2016 imo.
The single market is what we should have remained in and that was what our Government should have negotiated with the EU. Assuming it was possible to do that. Was it though?
Why Cameron had this ridiculous referendum i seriously do not know. They the politicians are supposed to be the clever ones not us the public. That is why they get elected isn’t it. To run the country.
We were simply voting for something we knew almost nothing about well 90+ % of us anyway.
Total shambles this has turned into and it is going to take an awful long time to sort out and get our country back on its feet again.
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CR.
Absolutely we could stay in the SM without being in the EU. Effectively, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are in that position.
Several leading Brexit supporters said that's what we were voting for in 2016. Farage repeatedly said "Wouldn't it be great if we were like Norway." Numerous others said there was no intention to leave the SM
Then in January 2017, May unilaterally announced that Govt policy was to leave the SM.
No asking the people if that's what they voted for. No attempt to get a consensus with other parties.
And Johnson spent the next two years insisting that we cut ourselves off from even alignment with the SM. Purely because it undermined May and paved his way to No10.
The effect of this on NI was known all along. And delibetately ignored. And this is where we are now. With Johnson insisting it is all the EU's fault.
An utter shit show.
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It seems to me that the whole political system in this country is totally broken .
What goes on today would never have been tolerated not only by the electorate but the political party's themselves even in the 90's or early 2000's .
My opinion is the 2008 financial crash and the lack of any great consequences for those involved seem to have opened up " well you can get away with anything now" .
There's more than a hint of the social and economic fall out from the crash leading us right to where this country is today .
Only my opinion mind .
The consensus amongst the people of this country shouldn't be to argue Tory or Labour , leaver or remainer or anything else the consensus should be to fix the political system so that it's population have a system worth voting for irrespective of who is in power .
This is the UK not 1930's Germany .
FPTP system of electing governments simply has to go .
The buying of political influence through donations needs massive regulation .
Newspapers , tv , radio , digital platforms including Facebook , Instagram and others need regulation with consequences for fake news etc .
This free for all mentality including corruption , lying , buying of democracy needs to end and end now .
Fix the political system please .
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Unlikey that a government (and their financial backers) who came to power because of that system will want to change it tyke.
Just look at the comments from their supporters on this very page.
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I'm sure the Labour Party will support a change in the voting system that gets them into power (if they ever get into power again).
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I'm pretty sure a high proportion of leave voters wanted an end to freedom of movement in to the country, we can't ignore that. The obvious answer was to change the EU as an establishment but the EU won't and still hasn't changed.
Many of the negative outcomes post brexit so far (and there aren't that many) are poor policy choices of the government not due to brexit. An example would be lorry drivers. The government could allow them in without limit, they didn't and still haven't.
The Ireland issue still exists and still there is no real answer that suits all parties. I still question if customs checks are really that important practically but the EU and UK governments will not budge on that seemingly.
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As the pressure ramps up on Johnson , energy crisis , shortages on our supermarket shelves and a million jobs nobody wants to do anymore etc etc .
I'm thinking to myself he's going to be bashing the EU for no other reason than to keep the heat off himself and place the EU as the devil .
This NI thing may well be only the beginning as he places the EU as the enemy and they are the ones to blame and not himself or his government and their total mismanagement of this thing .
This clown isn't the clown many people think he is .
He's a sharp operator and works an audience to his advantage .
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"The obvious answer was to change the EU as an establishment but the EU won't and still hasn't changed."
Do you see the problem with this attitude?
A proportion of about half of UK voters wanted X. The EU with 500 million people to satisfy should have given them X.
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"The obvious answer was to change the EU as an establishment but the EU won't and still hasn't changed."
Do you see the problem with this attitude?
A proportion of about half of UK voters wanted X. The EU with 500 million people to satisfy should have given them X.
Equally your comment actually adds to another point. It was said it was better to be in the EU to have a voice. You've just pointedly said there is no voice if the remainder disagrees, at what point is the scale so large that our views don't matter? If 52% of the UK population doesn't like the EU then there has to be some admission that something isn't right.
Also if you believe the rest of the EU citizens don't want change you're wrong, many will and granted many won't.
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The point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.
The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc.
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It is as clear a case of bad faith by a politician as you will ever see. Johnson knew damn well that the deal Frost negotiated and he signed required a trade border between GB and NI with checks on goods passing over the border. It is written in the document in black and white. But he repeatedly insisted during the election campaign that there would be no checks on goods passing between GB and NI. Absolute cast iron lying.
Now Frost is saying that an arrangement that requires checks on goods is unacceptable and the agreement must be torn up and renegotiated.
Where we are is where Johnson planned we would be. It was simply about winning the 2019 GE....
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1448427361989431297/pu/vid/640x360/tBkIDR41-oRyz_eR.mp4?tag=12
https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1448427581490016261
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The point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.
The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc.
So why didn't the government simply enact that and walk away from the EU. No trade deal, nothing? The answer, to anyone who isn't brain dead is obvious. Pity leave voters didn't think it all trough before placing their X. I said it at the time, and I'll say it again now, leave voters didn't know what they were voting for because it wasn't spelled out!
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The point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.
The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc.
So why didn't the government simply enact that and walk away from the EU. No trade deal, nothing? The answer, to anyone who isn't brain dead is obvious. Pity leave voters didn't think it all trough before placing their X. I said it at the time, and I'll say it again now, leave voters didn't know what they were voting for because it wasn't spelled out!
I agree NNK that in general leave voters didn’t know the full extent of voting to leave.
I don’t think anyone knew.
I can’t speak for anyone but myself so can’t explain why the government did anything the way they did, maybe some of our forum politicians can help there.
I voted remain by the way.
To confirm my earlier post, the vote WAS in or out, nothing else.
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The point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.
The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc.
So why didn't the government simply enact that and walk away from the EU. No trade deal, nothing? The answer, to anyone who isn't brain dead is obvious. Pity leave voters didn't think it all trough before placing their X. I said it at the time, and I'll say it again now, leave voters didn't know what they were voting for because it wasn't spelled out!
Hound's comment here encapsulates the fundamental problem with the 2016 referendum, as I've said for years.
There was never any such identifiable thing as "Leave". There were dozens of ways in which we could have "Left" the EU, with many different levels of co-operation and integration with EU systems.
What the vote to "Leave" did was to basically say to the party with a majority in Parliament "YOU decide what sort of arrangement we have with the EU." And after the Leave side during the campaign having repeatedly played down the prospect of us leaving the SM [1], the party with the majority in Parliament then unilaterally and without reference to parliament or to the British people, decided that "Leave" meant that we would leave the SM.
And to question that process, in some people's minds, makes you a traitor to the sanctity of democracy.
[1]
Daniel Hanan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzykce4oxII&t=308s
Boris Johnson. https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/782633174035787776
Nigel Farage. https://www.facebook.com/TheDailyPolitik/videos/407312710122024/?t=0
Owen Paterson. https://youtu.be/vhb-DLqelN8?t=87
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I understood it as leave meant to leave. No deals, no agreements, no provisos, NO GOING BACK. I expected agreements/deals with the EU to be struck after we'd left, and not as conditions of leaving.
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I understood it as leave meant to leave. No deals, no agreements, no provisos, NO GOING BACK. I expected agreements/deals with the EU to be struck after we'd left, and not as conditions of leaving.
So do you expect good faith from the government to accept the NI protocols as designed and signed off by Britain?
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I understood it as leave meant to leave. No deals, no agreements, no provisos, NO GOING BACK. I expected agreements/deals with the EU to be struck after we'd left, and not as conditions of leaving.
BB.
Your post reveals a lot.
Never once were we somehow required to strike a deal as a condition of leaving. If that's what you actually think happened, after all these years of discussion, I can now see why you are so convinced that the EU are the bad guys.
And that idea that you expected us to leave WITHOUT a deal and then negotiate one afterwards also explains a lot. So you assumed that we would, on Day One of leaving, have no agreement with our biggest and closest trading partner on what basis we would continue to do trade?
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As I understood it we were in talks with individual countries but the EU stopped it.
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We are only following the German way, sign a treaty then attack, they are notorious for it. Both us and the Russians fell for that one.
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The point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.
The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc.
So why didn't the government simply enact that and walk away from the EU. No trade deal, nothing? The answer, to anyone who isn't brain dead is obvious. Pity leave voters didn't think it all trough before placing their X. I said it at the time, and I'll say it again now, leave voters didn't know what they were voting for because it wasn't spelled out!
Hound's comment here encapsulates the fundamental problem with the 2016 referendum, as I've said for years.
There was never any such identifiable thing as "Leave". There were dozens of ways in which we could have "Left" the EU, with many different levels of co-operation and integration with EU systems.
What the vote to "Leave" did was to basically say to the party with a majority in Parliament "YOU decide what sort of arrangement we have with the EU." And after the Leave side during the campaign having repeatedly played down the prospect of us leaving the SM [1], the party with the majority in Parliament then unilaterally and without reference to parliament or to the British people, decided that "Leave" meant that we would leave the SM.
And to question that process, in some people's minds, makes you a traitor to the sanctity of democracy.
[1]
Daniel Hanan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzykce4oxII&t=308s
Boris Johnson. https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/782633174035787776
Nigel Farage. https://www.facebook.com/TheDailyPolitik/videos/407312710122024/?t=0
Owen Paterson. https://youtu.be/vhb-DLqelN8?t=87
What hounds post actually said was that there were two options on the voting slip.
Leave or Remain.
I know there were lots of options available but they weren’t available to vote on.
Anyone who says otherwise has a short memory.
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You guys would love to take part in the ESS survey now called the UK Opinions Survey because we are not in the EU anymore.
If you are interested in Politics this one is right up your street.
Unfortunately it is probably not up your street. ( in a literal sense )
Currently doing this one in an area near Wakefield. Just 15 addresses only get randomly selected in a postcode on this Study.
British Social attitudes and National Value Surveys would also be studies you guys would love to take part in.
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As I understood it we were in talks with individual countries but the EU stopped it.
I haven't got a clue what you mean by this.
Are you talking about us talking with individual EU countries? If so, there is no mechanism for striking trade deals with individual EU countries, because they are all signed up to the SM and CU.
Are you talking about us talking with countries outside the EU? If so, there was never anything to prevent us from discussing trade deals with them and we did. But legally, we could not sign trade deals with them until we had formally left the SM and CU.
So I'm struggling to figure out what supposed right we had that was stopped by the EU.
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I was talking about countries within the EU that were eager to trade with us but the EU put a stop to it.
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BB.
Countries within the SM and CU have a common approach to trading with third parties. They cannot by definition engage in trade deals with third parties. Th EU didn't put a stop to anything on this score, post-2016. This countries that joined the SM and CU freely gave up that right a long time ago. Germany or Malta are no more able to enter into individual trade deals with the UK than they are with Micronesia.
Where do you get these stories from?
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I was talking about countries within the EU that were eager to trade with us but the EU put a stop to it.
You just don't get it do you BB? Those 27 countries ARE the EU! You need to stop reading the Express mate.
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Still, it's good to know that the man who gave us Brexit is having a protracted, very public nervous breakdown.
This was Cummings's Twitter response to people criticising him and Frost for negotiating a deal that Cummings himself has said no-one on the British side ever intended to honour
https://mobile.twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1448029839571685383
Translation (cos it's like reading the rant of a stroppy 14 year old):
SW1=Westminster
GLS=Govt Lawyers
f**ked supermarket trolley is his emoji for Johnson. As in, impossible to keep him going in the right direction, keeps on swerving off line and crashing into shit.
Basically, he's saying that we should all congratulate him for doing the best job in such difficult circumstances.
The lack of self awareness of who it was who tipped us into "once-a-century constit crisis" is startling. Maybe he things we should thank him for rescuing a not-the-absolute-shittest-imaginable outcome from a f**king disaster that he personally engineered?
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This as Reply of the Year, mind.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Keriothe/status/1448069974971535367
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Apologies, I meant to say countries NOT within the EU that were eager to trade with us but the EU put a stop to it, or at least stopped us signing up to them, as you put it.
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Apologies, I meant to say countries NOT within the EU that were eager to trade with us but the EU put a stop to it, or at least stopped us signing up to them, as you put it.
This is correct. Whilst we were members of the EU they prevented us signing (or negotiating?) with countries outside of the bloc.
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We negotiated with many other countries during the process of leaving. We could not sign any deals until we left the SM, as a matter of international trade law. Blowing this up into some nefarious action by the EU is ridiculous. We could not have a separate trade policy while we were members of the SM, which had its own trade agreements. Because, while we were members of the SM, anything that came into Britain from another country could automatically pass into any other SM country, even if it breached the terms of agreement between the SM and the originator country.
It's very simple and there is nothing at all controversial about it, but it is very telling that this idea that the EU has treated us unfairly over this has stuck in some people's heads.
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Love this tweet from HaveIGotNewsForYou
Public told to plan ahead for Christmas due to supply issues, forcing majority of men to bring their shopping forward to Dec 23rd.
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Is another December lockdown on its way.
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The french fisherman are on the verge of blocking ports due to issues over fishing rights.
It’s going to be an interesting winter.
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One thing there will be a massive supply of this Winter is Benzodiazepine, that's for sure.
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Still, it's good to know that the man who gave us Brexit is having a protracted, very public nervous breakdown.
This was Cummings's Twitter response to people criticising him and Frost for negotiating a deal that Cummings himself has said no-one on the British side ever intended to honour
https://mobile.twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1448029839571685383
Translation (cos it's like reading the rant of a stroppy 14 year old):
SW1=Westminster
GLS=Govt Lawyers
f**ked supermarket trolley is his emoji for Johnson. As in, impossible to keep him going in the right direction, keeps on swerving off line and crashing into shit.
Basically, he's saying that we should all congratulate him for doing the best job in such difficult circumstances.
The lack of self awareness of who it was who tipped us into "once-a-century constit crisis" is startling. Maybe he things we should thank him for rescuing a not-the-absolute-shittest-imaginable outcome from a f**king disaster that he personally engineered?
that shopping trolley emoji could become quite a thing, it could be used on the voting form too.
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I signed on the dotted line to buy a car once, then negotiated the price, it was very expensive
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This sums up everything that has been said about Brexit and Ireland.
https://mobile.twitter.com/FlipChartRick/status/1448616714288222212
A. Pisses off Unionists and f**ks the GFA.
B. Pisses off Republicans and f**ks the GFA.
C. Was the obvious solution...unless you were trying to hold the Tory party together.
Unicorn is what Tory Brexiters have promised for 6 years.
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this has to be a positive, it will sure help with the government's effort to clean up the mess
''Deeside: New toilet paper factory could create 460 jobs''
''A new factory making toilet paper, tissues and kitchen roll could create up to 460 new jobs.
Italian-based manufacturer ICT is planning to build a new paper mill on the Deeside Industrial estate, in Flintshire.
The company has asked for the public's views on the move ahead of submitting a planning application''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58923540
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this has to be a positive, it will sure help with the government's effort to clean up the mess
''Deeside: New toilet paper factory could create 460 jobs''
''A new factory making toilet paper, tissues and kitchen roll could create up to 460 new jobs.
Italian-based manufacturer ICT is planning to build a new paper mill on the Deeside Industrial estate, in Flintshire.
The company has asked for the public's views on the move ahead of submitting a planning application''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58923540
That sounds like a tissue of lies to me.
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this has to be a positive, it will sure help with the government's effort to clean up the mess
''Deeside: New toilet paper factory could create 460 jobs''
''A new factory making toilet paper, tissues and kitchen roll could create up to 460 new jobs.
Italian-based manufacturer ICT is planning to build a new paper mill on the Deeside Industrial estate, in Flintshire.
The company has asked for the public's views on the move ahead of submitting a planning application''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58923540
In the current climate, it’s not to be sneezed at.
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On a bit of a roll there guys!
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Whatever the final cost of Brexit turns out to be, there is a clear record of misinformation from Coco the Clown.
Here is an edit of some choice cuts;
https://youtu.be/8cDNVQAzeyE
We are now in the position where pathological lies are the common currency of government.
This is no longer hidden, as in the past.
It is upfront and boast-worthy....vote for me and be misled, you won't be disappointed!
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What happened to good old Sheffield finest toilet paper factory IZAL
The source of many toilet paper mishap stories, rough as Sandpaper on one side and as slippery as Black ice on the other. Caused many an overshoot on wiping upwards!
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Cost of brexit, when miners attained a better wage the answer was to import cheaper coal as locally mined coal was presumably a luxury.
To achieve the promised nirvana this government's intention is to sign more trade deals, import more and more cheaper goods along with the reasonably new idea of high tech, high wage thingy.
What will the UK be able to trade as a balance in these negotiations with those countries that make these cheaper goods and how long will this 'transition' take, how long will it take to change the whole (yes whole, think of levelling up) of Britain to 'retool' into a high tech economy?
Added
And who will do the 'shit jobs' will this spawn more of an underclass of low wage on-call army.
The government has so far rejected the idea of a living wage as it cancels the £20 quid that those on the bottom rungs have been making merry with, trying to force them into the available jobs that no one really wants to do.
Is the blue print what we see now being rolled out?
High tech high wages for a lower upper class with those that can't quite make it scrambling for crumbs as cheap imports trash their jobs. Going back to live-in housekeepers and cooks.
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this has to be a positive, it will sure help with the government's effort to clean up the mess
''Deeside: New toilet paper factory could create 460 jobs''
''A new factory making toilet paper, tissues and kitchen roll could create up to 460 new jobs.
Italian-based manufacturer ICT is planning to build a new paper mill on the Deeside Industrial estate, in Flintshire.
The company has asked for the public's views on the move ahead of submitting a planning application''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-58923540
In the current climate, it’s not to be sneezed at.
Snot what we voted for.
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Cost of brexit, when miners attained a better wage the answer was to import cheaper coal as locally mined coal was presumably a luxury.
To achieve the promised nirvana this government's intention is to sign more trade deals, import more and more cheaper goods along with the reasonably new idea of high tech, high wage thingy.
What will the UK be able to trade as a balance in these negotiations with those countries that make these cheaper goods and how long will this 'transition' take, how long will it take to change the whole (yes whole, think of levelling up) of Britain to 'retool' into a high tech economy?
Added
And who will do the 'shit jobs' will this spawn more of an underclass of low wage on-call army.
The government has so far rejected the idea of a living wage as it cancels the £20 quid that those on the bottom rungs have been making merry with, trying to force them into the available jobs that no one really wants to do.
Is the blue print what we see now being rolled out?
High tech high wages for a lower upper class with those that can't quite make it scrambling for crumbs as cheap imports trash their jobs. Going back to live-in housekeepers and cooks.
It’s worth remembering too that in the early 90’s when the Government were closing mines en masse, the EEC and then the EU were fully supportive (and probably actively encouraged) of this policy. They saw the purchase and importing of coal from Eastern Europe as a ‘shoe in’ to help the economies of these countries strengthen to the point where EU membership would become a viable option to them.
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Thanks HA
''It’s worth remembering too that in the early 90’s when the Government were closing mines en masse, the EEC and then the EU were fully supportive (and probably actively encouraged) of this policy. They saw the purchase and importing of coal from Eastern Europe as a ‘shoe in’ to help the economies of these countries strengthen to the point where EU membership would become a viable option to them.''
Here's a few of the good things to come out of the EU
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/history_en
Our own governments legislated to stop burning coal in homes from around the 1960s I think, with good reason.
''Western Europe's Long Retreat from Coal and Implications for Energy Trade
Published online by Cambridge University Press: 10 September 2020''
''Western Europe's industrialization was powered largely by coal. Within 15 years after the end of the Second World War, however, governments were subsidizing coal and protecting producers from foreign competition while allowing their industries to contract in a way that avoided large-scale unemployment of miners. The oil-price shocks of 1973–1974 and 1979–1980 gave temporary reprieve to hard-coal production until international oil prices slumped in 1986. This event, combined with ever more stringent environmental regulations and, later, caps on carbon-dioxide emissions, led to the disappearance of subsidized coal mining in one country after another. As of the end of 2019, hard coal was still being mined – in small amounts – in only three Western European countries: Norway, Spain, and the United Kingdom. This paper describes the history of the industry from 1945 through to the present, and the consequences of subsidy policy for trade in hard coal and its substitutes. A common observation is that a reduction in subsidized coal production by a country has not necessarily translated into increased imports of coal on a one-for-one basis.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/world-trade-review/article/abs/western-europes-long-retreat-from-coal-and-implications-for-energy-trade/1F6BAD3033F3C0ABFAA66DF703D06D10
Added: Germany was producing coal until 2018
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Cost of brexit, when miners attained a better wage the answer was to import cheaper coal as locally mined coal was presumably a luxury.
To achieve the promised nirvana this government's intention is to sign more trade deals, import more and more cheaper goods along with the reasonably new idea of high tech, high wage thingy.
What will the UK be able to trade as a balance in these negotiations with those countries that make these cheaper goods and how long will this 'transition' take, how long will it take to change the whole (yes whole, think of levelling up) of Britain to 'retool' into a high tech economy?
Added
And who will do the 'shit jobs' will this spawn more of an underclass of low wage on-call army.
The government has so far rejected the idea of a living wage as it cancels the £20 quid that those on the bottom rungs have been making merry with, trying to force them into the available jobs that no one really wants to do.
Is the blue print what we see now being rolled out?
High tech high wages for a lower upper class with those that can't quite make it scrambling for crumbs as cheap imports trash their jobs. Going back to live-in housekeepers and cooks.
It’s worth remembering too that in the early 90’s when the Government were closing mines en masse, the EEC and then the EU were fully supportive (and probably actively encouraged) of this policy. They saw the purchase and importing of coal from Eastern Europe as a ‘shoe in’ to help the economies of these countries strengthen to the point where EU membership would become a viable option to them.
It's also worth remembering that many tonnes of imported coal came from South America, South Africa and Australia not just Europe
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Cost of brexit, when miners attained a better wage the answer was to import cheaper coal as locally mined coal was presumably a luxury.
To achieve the promised nirvana this government's intention is to sign more trade deals, import more and more cheaper goods along with the reasonably new idea of high tech, high wage thingy.
What will the UK be able to trade as a balance in these negotiations with those countries that make these cheaper goods and how long will this 'transition' take, how long will it take to change the whole (yes whole, think of levelling up) of Britain to 'retool' into a high tech economy?
Added
And who will do the 'shit jobs' will this spawn more of an underclass of low wage on-call army.
The government has so far rejected the idea of a living wage as it cancels the £20 quid that those on the bottom rungs have been making merry with, trying to force them into the available jobs that no one really wants to do.
Is the blue print what we see now being rolled out?
High tech high wages for a lower upper class with those that can't quite make it scrambling for crumbs as cheap imports trash their jobs. Going back to live-in housekeepers and cooks.
It’s worth remembering too that in the early 90’s when the Government were closing mines en masse, the EEC and then the EU were fully supportive (and probably actively encouraged) of this policy. They saw the purchase and importing of coal from Eastern Europe as a ‘shoe in’ to help the economies of these countries strengthen to the point where EU membership would become a viable option to them.
That really doesn't tally with the facts.
The vast bulk of closures had already happened while Poland was still Communist. Communism didn't fall in Poland until the end of 1989. By then there were only 50,000 people employed in the UK coal industry, down from 250,000 in 1980.
Blaming the demise of the UK coal industry on a nefarious imperial EU plan is way off the mark.
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Cost of brexit, when miners attained a better wage the answer was to import cheaper coal as locally mined coal was presumably a luxury.
To achieve the promised nirvana this government's intention is to sign more trade deals, import more and more cheaper goods along with the reasonably new idea of high tech, high wage thingy.
What will the UK be able to trade as a balance in these negotiations with those countries that make these cheaper goods and how long will this 'transition' take, how long will it take to change the whole (yes whole, think of levelling up) of Britain to 'retool' into a high tech economy?
Added
And who will do the 'shit jobs' will this spawn more of an underclass of low wage on-call army.
The government has so far rejected the idea of a living wage as it cancels the £20 quid that those on the bottom rungs have been making merry with, trying to force them into the available jobs that no one really wants to do.
Is the blue print what we see now being rolled out?
High tech high wages for a lower upper class with those that can't quite make it scrambling for crumbs as cheap imports trash their jobs. Going back to live-in housekeepers and cooks.
It’s worth remembering too that in the early 90’s when the Government were closing mines en masse, the EEC and then the EU were fully supportive (and probably actively encouraged) of this policy. They saw the purchase and importing of coal from Eastern Europe as a ‘shoe in’ to help the economies of these countries strengthen to the point where EU membership would become a viable option to them.
That really doesn't tally with the facts.
The vast bulk of closures had already happened while Poland was still Communist. Communism didn't fall in Poland until the end of 1989. By then there were only 50,000 people employed in the UK coal industry, down from 250,000 in 1980.
Blaming the demise of the UK coal industry on a nefarious imperial EU plan is way off the mark.
Billy,
Read my post again. I’ve not claimed, suggested nor hinted that the demise of UK coal was “a nefarious EU plan”. I’ve also made clear that I’m referring to closures that occurred during the early 90’s.
During the pit closure programme of the Major Government, the EEC/EU were fully supportive of the process and helped to facilitate negotiations between the UK and Eastern European countries regarding the import of coal. This was widely reported at the time in the media, included in a TV documentary and also mentioned in Parliament by a number of Labour MP’s who’s constituents were affected.
Were the EEC/EU responsible for UK pit closures in the 90’s? No
We’re the EEC/EU supportive of the UK government policy of pit closures? Absolutely
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HA
Apologies if I didn't make it clear what I meant and if I read more into your post than I should have done. In my defence, you were saying the EU "probably" supported our pit closures as an aid to getting Eastern European countries ready for EU membership, so maybe you can see why I read it the way I did?
In the context of this thread, my point is: Would the pit closures have gone ahead if the EC/EU hadn't existed at the time?
And there is the follow-up question: Once the pit closures had occurred and UK mining areas were devastated, would a UK Govt outside the EU have invested as much money in the likes of South Yorkshire and South Wales as the EU did?
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HA
Apologies if I didn't make it clear what I meant and if I read more into your post than I should have done. In my defence, you were saying the EU "probably" supported our pit closures as an aid to getting Eastern European countries ready for EU membership, so maybe you can see why I read it the way I did?
In the context of this thread, my point is: Would the pit closures have gone ahead if the EC/EU hadn't existed at the time?
And there is the follow-up question: Once the pit closures had occurred and UK mining areas were devastated, would a UK Govt outside the EU have invested as much money in the likes of South Yorkshire and South Wales as the EU did?
Fair enough Billy. Maybe I could have worded my post better.
Would the pit closures have gone ahead without EU support? Of course they would. However it helps to understand how and why many people from these communities question the benefits of EU when they saw them supporting the Tories hatchet job (because that’s exactly what it was) of their livelihoods.
Your second point is a more rhetorical question. Who knows? It’s a little known fact that the UK government had no say in where EU funding was distributed in the country. Is it better that our own government make this decision rather than the EU? Do I trust the Tories or the EU? Neither to be honest.
As an interesting side point, not long after the referendum I watched a news report from Ebbw Vale which had voted to leave by a large majority…and yet was the largest small town recipient of EU funds in the country. Interestingly the report was positioned as an exam of the failure of the Remain campaign to communicate the benefits of EU membership clearly enough rather than an opportunity to brand leave voters as idiots (though that would come soon enough). Consequently I now keep half an eye on what goes on economically in that town as an unscientific barometer of whether people are benefiting or not. Sad man that I am!
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HA.
This EU that you don't trust. If we hadn't left the EU, they were going to chuck €3bn at South Yorkshire. Paid for by rich European tax payers. Do you think any Tory Govt in history would have ever so much as thought of doing that?
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The EU 'supported' the pit closures?
What did you expect them to do, try and stop a UK government from doing what they wanted to do?