So who is to blame for this shambles?

[Sheepskin Stu]

I think on another thread I posted that the rot set in when we started chasing the Premiership dream/ dollar. However, I think BST is right in his analysis. John Ryan and the board must have concluded around 2009 that we couldn't be financially viable in the Championship (because of the attendances/ ST sales) and the only way was to go for broke. Blackpool and Swansea managed to achieve this- we didn't- but I can't see our fate would have been much different if we'd tried to do like Preston did for years and muddle along at this level.

Now comes the reckoning and I have no problem with going back to League One. I just hope there are plans in place so we can cope at that level next season.

This is the bit that worries me the most. We're paying top league one wages in the championship so will it mean we'll pay league two wages in league one? Certainly doesn't fill you with confidence.

[Norfolk N Chance]

100% existing contracted players - simply not good enough!

The experiement only got going at xmas what about the other 12 months we were losing game after game after game

Mentally weak players use to losing week in week out!:suicide:

[DonnyNoel]

100% existing contracted players - simply not good enough!

The experiement only got going at xmas what about the other 12 months we were losing game after game after game

Mentally weak players use to losing week in week out!:suicide:

Yet our best run of form under Saunders came when he first took over. We've been poor both before and after Xmas so to say \"100%\" is you typically over exagerrating things. SOD certainly should have had a clear out (and for me Saunders has to address this) but whilst the experiment has undoubtedly brough in better players, the overall effect on results has only been slightly positive.

[JonWallsend]

Mr Croft.

I agree with you pretty much 100%. The rot set in when we lost control of the defensive strengths that we'd had in the first 2 years in this division.

Back in 08-09 and 09-10, we had an excellent defensive record. In 08-09, we conceded 1.15 goals per game. Even when we were in dreadful form during the first half of that season, we were still defensively quite tight, conceding around 1.1-1.2 goals per game on average. That is damn good form, and puts you in the top 8-10 of defences in the division. We were a little looser in 09-10, but still had the 11th best defensive record in the division, conceding 1.28 goals per game.

By 10-11, things started to get entirely unbalanced. As you say, we'd replaced Mills with Shackell/Ward in 09-10, but we simply didn't address the centre-back and left back holes in the following season. So we started shipping goals big style. Even before the injuries struck and when our overall form was good in the first half of 10-11, we were leaking goals at an alarming rate. Between Aug-Dec 2010, we conceded 35 goals in 21 games - 1.66 goals per game which was the 5th worst record in the division. That was fine as long as Sharp was fit and in form - we scored almost as many as we conceded. (NB: The free-scoring/free-conceding form of that time actually gives the lie to those who say that O'Driscoll's sides were always dull and boring.)

But when the injuries struck, we went to pieces. Over the last 25 games of 10-11 we conceded 46 goals and scored only 22.

We've carried on at a similar rate this season when Sharp hasn't been available.

You hit the nail on the head Mr Croft. I said at the time we signed Sharp that the one and only reason why that could be a sane decision was if we were going to go balls out for a top 6 place.

And it came damn-close to working. By early March 2010, we were looking like making a run on the rails for the play-offs. By Nov 11, we were a last-minute equaliser against Swansea away from breaking into the top 5 with 40% of the season gone.

But it didn't work. We couldn't hold it together. And with hindsight, it was a gamble. It put all our eggs in one Billy Sharp shaped basket and left us hoping that he (and the meagre cover that we had in other positions) stayed fit. It could have given us the jackpot, but instead it left us with the current predicament.

That's life folks. Maybe we could have played it softly-softly. Maybe we could have made do with a decent, honest, unspectacular journeymen throughout the side and aimed for respectable, safe lower table mediocrity. But that would never be Ryan's way. With hindsight, although we maybe didn't even realise it at the time, we shot for the moon and were hobbled by bad luck.

We've had the upswing. We saw some wonderful football and lived some wonderful moments. In a not-very-different parallel universe, with a couple fewer injuries and the odd moment of luck, we'd be living the life that Swansea now have.

But (unless you are the sort of bell end who wants your football with a guarantee of success) part of the life of a fan is dealing with both directions of the pendulum's swing. If you're a genuine football fan, you now take a big deep breath, deal with your pain.

And for fcuk's sake, stop babbying.

That is the best post I've read on here for a good while.

Although I still maintain (know for a fact), that without signing Sharp we wouldn't have kept some of our other better players for the 2010- 2011 season.

[Mr1Croft]

Which brings me back to my opening statement, had Shackell shown more respect for us instead of running into Barnsley to cash in his signing-on bonus would we be in this situation? I don't think at the time their was a better chance to sign a better player for that position. I suppose we will never know but I am of the belief that is was that act of greed by not only Shackell but our neighbors Barnsley condemned us to the decline that followed.

Another reason to hate the Dingles, and Shackell of course...

Maybe your being a tad harsh on Shackell , He wasn't a free agent Barnsley Payed in the region of £500k to Wolves for him.
So if DRFC Couldn't or wouldn't match the fee plus wages then it would have been out of his hands as Wolves are entitled to get the best price for him.

P.S. He didn't show Barnsley any respect either, he soon up sticks and left when Derby came knocking .

P.P.S. I hate Shackell as well.

But hadn't we just agreed a fee with Wolves and then he just accepted the offer from Barnsley without even waiting for our offer to be put on the table?

Although in all honesty the season we lost Mills we also lost Greer, who I believe could have been an adequate replacement when you look at what he has done since...

[steve@dcfd]

The problems we have surfaced at the beginning of 2011, but the seeds got sown earlier than that, letting Paul Green go then paying lesser quality players wages we refused to pay him, letting Welens leave over wages then wasting them on loan after loan, not progressing youth, no reserve team, a complet lack of scouting lower league talent. Take your pick but blaming DS or WM is not only shortsighted but inaccurate and I'm not a fan of either.

Totally agree money should have been made available to keep our bests players. What we did not do from 2008/ 2009 it is now proving by doing things on the cheap have led to supporters staying away and finally relegation. It will also lead to season ticket holders reducing to at least half from this season.

[BigH]

When it comes to issues around the team and the squad I agree with much of what has been written in this post.

The 'poaching' of Shackell by Barnsley certainly seemed to spook O'Driscoll and he went and brought in 2-3 journeymen in the vain hope that one of them might do a job. Bad call.

But there's one other factor. In 2010 the Premiership and the Football League recut the parachute payment deal. As you may recall, those that dropped out of the Premiership received something like £10-12m for 4 seasons while those that hung around in the Championship received £2.3m a season.

This now means that anyone the size of DRFC - unless supported by a benefactor of Croesus-like proportions - has a cat in hell's chance of surviving in this division unless they do a Blackpool, hit the jackpot go up/drop down and line their pockets for a few years. The next best thing is to have a decent fan base.

So beware Peterboro, Barnsley and Millwall; my tips for next season's drop. Unless of course, Carlisle miraculously make it up in which case they will in all probability go straight back down.

The fact is that the 'bankers' (Cockney rhyming) at the Prem and the FL stacked the odds against DRFC in 2010 to the point where anything other than a Board prepared to bankrupt the club (a la Portsmouth or Coventry), a team full of wonder kids playing out of their skin on L1 wages or a barrow full of luck would keep us up.

Alas the barrow full of luck ran out in Jan 2011...

[Colin C No.3]

How about the apathy shown by the general Doncaster public towards the club?

Where are the ones who turned up in their droves at The Millenium & Wembley?

I'm sure the lack of bums on seats, & I don't just mean this season, even took JR by surprise.

I can remember attending a meeting at The Earl of Doncaster where the new satadium was to be discussed & a bloke being roundly applauded when he voiced his opinion that a 15,000 all seater stadium showed a lack of ambition & that 'we' ought to be building was a 25,000 capacity stadium or not bother laying a brick!

If you can't generate revenue through the turnstiles, you're on a hiding to nothing.

I've enjoyed our time in the Championship, obviously getting turned over at home on a regular basis these days hurts, but all in all, I wouldn't (& didn't) have missed it for the world.

Thanks JR.

[Rovin Reporter]

Don't leave out the stay away fans that could never be won over , the town only wants Man u or Chelsea & Arsenal etc at home .. It was greatly over estimated the amount of season tickets that would be sold leaving the club with Directors being made to realise that Football is NOT for amateurs or get rich investors. Portsmouth Leeds etc. point to keep us all in check

If you are looking to blame anyone it has to be the fans at large as  Doncaster does not have enough of them willing to give up their Alleghenies to other teams and show home support  to the Rovers. J/R and co soon realised this when we never filled the Stadium after the Huddersfield opening game.

 Money is ALL it is about Council ,SMC, Rovers they all now want a better deal , Rover fortunes are going backwards now means the Council's unable to negotiate a better deal for tax payers , This will ALL go belly for the everyone if they don;t step back and start to except  each others position and look to the future and sort out a short term deal with view to coming back in  say   five years . Rovers need to except it is going to be a painful time if the fans stay away and should put all there energies into marketing with the future in mind . Optimism and planning got them in the Championship and it will again , The council need to Back the club and give praise where due  for all the club has achieved by acknowledging their joint  vision was a and is a  long term project with bigger strides still to be taken on both sides and not forgetting it has provided the town a first rate facility in Olympic year when the real purpose will now be seen to be gained.

[WBDRFC]

How about the apathy shown by the general Doncaster public towards the club?

Where are the ones who turned up in their droves at The Millenium & Wembley?

I'm sure the lack of bums on seats, & I don't just mean this season, even took JR by surprise.

The club is to blame solely for the disappointing attendances.

The pricing strategy over the last 4 years has been a big mistake. The club thought they could charge similar amounts to \"larger\" Championship clubs (Sheff Utd, Norwich, Leicester). In reality, the town is in a much worse position with higher unemployment, lower wages and less loyalty to the club. The club was greedy, and it's going to hurt them for years to come (and I get no joy from saying that).

The club must have realised how badly they misjudged the pricing last year, with all of the discounts offered. I didn't renew my season ticket last summer because of the disastrous pricing strategy. I am a supporter, but money is tight. I have to get value for money for every penny I spend, and I didn't feel I got value for money last year - it would have been cheaper for me to pay per match last season. My attendance this season has been patchy, as it is too easy to come up with a excuse for missing a game here and there.

[Rovin Reporter]

I agree but pricing is based on balancing the books and not taking a hit every year financially. If the club had 25000 seats it could have done some practical steps to win stay away Rovers fans over. but  10.500 home end tickets to make a difference  means the tickets are too expensive for many of us. We will have to follow Bradford's view of filling the stadium to get the atmosphere we need .

[Colin C No.3]

How about the apathy shown by the general Doncaster public towards the club?

Where are the ones who turned up in their droves at The Millenium & Wembley?

I'm sure the lack of bums on seats, & I don't just mean this season, even took JR by surprise.

The club is to blame solely for the disappointing attendances.

The pricing strategy over the last 4 years has been a big mistake. The club thought they could charge similar amounts to \"larger\" Championship clubs (Sheff Utd, Norwich, Leicester). In reality, the town is in a much worse position with higher unemployment, lower wages and less loyalty to the club. The club was greedy, and it's going to hurt them for years to come (and I get no joy from saying that).

The club must have realised how badly they misjudged the pricing last year, with all of the discounts offered. I didn't renew my season ticket last summer because of the disastrous pricing strategy. I am a supporter, but money is tight. I have to get value for money for every penny I spend, and I didn't feel I got value for money last year - it would have been cheaper for me to pay per match last season. My attendance this season has been patchy, as it is too easy to come up with a excuse for missing a game here and there.

The Club is to take sole blame for poor attendances? Absolute tosh!

You then go on to shoot yourself in the foot by saying your 'patchy' attendance was down to it being \"Too easy to come up with 'a' excuse for missing a game here & there\". !!!

You're not a supporter.

You might be a 'fan', but 'supporters', by that very name, support the Club & the team by putting their hands in their pockets....REGULARLY!

I'd have more respect & sympathy for your post if you had left it by saying the reason you aren't attending many games was due to your own financial restraints but no, you want value for your money & you \"Didn't feel I got value for money last year...\".

If you insist on 'value for money' every time you dip your hand in your pocket, you've picked the wrong sport, club & team mate & I'd appreciate it if you'd stop sullying the term 'supporter' by including the likes of yourself in their ranks. Think on!

[WBDRFC]

How about the apathy shown by the general Doncaster public towards the club?

Where are the ones who turned up in their droves at The Millenium & Wembley?

I'm sure the lack of bums on seats, & I don't just mean this season, even took JR by surprise.

The club is to blame solely for the disappointing attendances.

The pricing strategy over the last 4 years has been a big mistake. The club thought they could charge similar amounts to \"larger\" Championship clubs (Sheff Utd, Norwich, Leicester). In reality, the town is in a much worse position with higher unemployment, lower wages and less loyalty to the club. The club was greedy, and it's going to hurt them for years to come (and I get no joy from saying that).

The club must have realised how badly they misjudged the pricing last year, with all of the discounts offered. I didn't renew my season ticket last summer because of the disastrous pricing strategy. I am a supporter, but money is tight. I have to get value for money for every penny I spend, and I didn't feel I got value for money last year - it would have been cheaper for me to pay per match last season. My attendance this season has been patchy, as it is too easy to come up with a excuse for missing a game here and there.

The Club is to take sole blame for poor attendances? Absolute tosh!

You then go on to shoot yourself in the foot by saying your 'patchy' attendance was down to it being \"Too easy to come up with 'a' excuse for missing a game here & there\". !!!

You're not a supporter.

You might be a 'fan', but 'supporters', by that very name, support the Club & the team by putting their hands in their pockets....REGULARLY!

I'd have more respect & sympathy for your post if you had left it by saying the reason you aren't attending many games was due to your own financial restraints but no, you want value for your money & you \"Didn't feel I got value for money last year...\".

If you insist on 'value for money' every time you dip your hand in your pocket, you've picked the wrong sport, club & team mate & I'd appreciate it if you'd stop sullying the term 'supporter' by including the likes of yourself in their ranks. Think on!

You're jumping to incorrect conclusions (no surprise there).

The excuses are financially related. I never said the excuses were not financially related. I did not say I missed some games this season due to not getting value money. I said I didn't feel that I got value for money last season. The reason I have missed some games this season is because of bills to pay. If the season ticket was more affordable (or allowed payment in 10 monthly instalments last year) then I would have bought one, and attended every game this season.

I don't mind having a discussion about issues where people have different points of view, but I hate people wrongfully stating that I said something. It does your argument no good when you blatantly lie.

I am a supporter, but the cost of supporting is getting too great. I would be there every week if our prices were more realistic. For example, next season Barnsley charge £330 for a season ticket in a comparable position to our East and West stands. Rovers are charging £419. Barnsley is a town comparable to Doncaster, in terms of economy, unemployment, \"bigger\" clubs nearby. Their prices are more realistic.

I've paid more money to the club this season than probably most other \"supporters\". I think that gives me the right to use the word \"supporter\".

Jump to more conclusions, please. It only decreases the respect that people will have for you.

As for your comment \"The Club is to take sole blame for poor attendances? Absolute tosh!\", I apologise on behalf of all fans. Of course, it was us who set the pricing that stopped many people from going who couldn't afford it.

[Sheepskin Stu]

Colin C and WBDRFC's comments are interesting. The whole pricing of football debate is worthy of greater understanding. I see Colin's view as a more traditionalist one where a supporter consistently and without question pays to watch the club play. WBDRFC cites \"value for money\" in his criteria for supporting the club.

If we put season tickets to one side, watching your club play on a match by match basis has become, certainly in the Football League, a luxury pastime rather than something you could do on the spur of the moment. Twenty five pounds (as an example) is for many people in Doncaster, too high a price for ninety minutes of entertainment. Such is the nature of football that entertainment is not guaranteed and therefore WBDRFC's point about perceived value for money is valid as the high price is not easily funded by many. The more you pay for something, the more you naturally expect in return.

Colin's point about regular support is true and is vital to every club. However, due to the every increasing cost that regular support has become fragmented and it is very difficult to get those lost supporters back in the fold.

Is there a solution to this problem? I'd like to know.

[WBDRFC]

Colin C and WBDRFC's comments are interesting. The whole pricing of football debate is worthy of greater understanding. I see Colin's view as a more traditionalist one where a supporter consistently and without question pays to watch the club play. WBDRFC cites \"value for money\" in his criteria for supporting the club.

If we put season tickets to one side, watching your club play on a match by match basis has become, certainly in the Football League, a luxury pastime rather than something you could do on the spur of the moment. Twenty five pounds (as an example) is for many people in Doncaster, too high a price for ninety minutes of entertainment. Such is the nature of football that entertainment is not guaranteed and therefore WBDRFC's point about perceived value for money is valid as the high price is not easily funded by many. The more you pay for something, the more you naturally expect in return.

Colin's point about regular support is true and is vital to every club. However, due to the every increasing cost that regular support has become fragmented and it is very difficult to get those lost supporters back in the fold.

Is there a solution to this problem? I'd like to know.

Sensible post, after Colin C's rant. One correction... \"value for money\" is not a criteria for supporting the club. Value for money was the reason for not renewing my season ticket. Affordability is the criteria for attending every match.

The problem for me is that the cost of taking the family to one game is way too high - with tickets, parking, programme, food/drinks, half-time draw ticket (I know, I get sucked in). It easily costs over £80 for 90 minutes of entertainment. When money is tight, there are much cheaper ways to keep the family entertained on a Saturday afternoon.
Admittedly, after spending £80 at the Derby game (whoever decided that was category A should be sacked!), I did feel like I had been robbed. It would have been quicker and less painful if somebody had stolen my wallet.

I've mentioned before on this forum that football is in the entertainment business - as much as traditional \"supporters\" don't like to hear it. Clubs have to compete with other entertainment, and the costs, and sometimes the enjoyment, are not as attracting as other things.

Football needs casual fans to survive. Rovers have a core support of maybe 1-2,000 hardcore supporters, who will still go even if we are back in the conference. Casual fans can be converted into hardcore supporters over time, but they are also easily turned off by poor performances or ticket prices that are too high. And I think it is the ticket prices that is having an impact on the attendances at Rovers.

Colin C may be critical of people who use the term \"supporter\" loosely, but casual fans (or \"un-loyal supporters\" are what keeps the club in business. If some people, such as Colin C, are using multi-tier definitions of the word \"supporter\" that will deter casual fans from attending, as they will be seen as second-class. Without casual fans, any club in the football league will soon go bust.

As for the OP question of \"Who is to blame for this shambles\", I think it is the short-sighted approach to pricing. Attendances have been falling since the first season in the Championship, so it is not solely due to the poor performances of the last 15 months. The falling attendances are having an impact on the club's finances, and that reduces the quality of players we can sign or who we can hang onto. That is the reason the state we are in. The team is not good enough, and never will be irrespective of who is manager - until the club's finances are in a better state.

[CusworthRovers]

I think the problem started with the collapse of the New Romantic era.

To be fair Tony Hadley never looked comfortable in this musical parade. Dressing him in 2nd hand clothes and looking like an extra from some Bohemian Goth arty-farty film was just too much for this crooner. His voice just wasn't suited, yet the Kemp boys excelled in this minefield, especially Martin strumming and bopping on the videos.

Once the New Romatics vanished, Spandau suddenly slowed down their approach and less catchy bopping songs. Gary spent more time on his piano, and Tony became self obsessed that he was a legendary crooner. Martin looked at 6's and 7's with all the slow stuff and couldn't really bounce around.

In the meantime the Duran'ies had come out of the god forbidden New Romantic era by bashing out some high energy sounds that suited their stage act...Hungry like the Wolf and Rio to name but 2.

All Spandau could muster was True and Through the Barricades, which, by the very slow pace, put more spotlight on Hadley and no lights on the Kemp boys. Inevitably Hadley believed in his own voice and went solo and there started years of adversity between the boys.

[Colin C No.3]

How about the apathy shown by the general Doncaster public towards the club?

Where are the ones who turned up in their droves at The Millenium & Wembley?

I'm sure the lack of bums on seats, & I don't just mean this season, even took JR by surprise.

The club is to blame solely for the disappointing attendances.

The pricing strategy over the last 4 years has been a big mistake. The club thought they could charge similar amounts to \"larger\" Championship clubs (Sheff Utd, Norwich, Leicester). In reality, the town is in a much worse position with higher unemployment, lower wages and less loyalty to the club. The club was greedy, and it's going to hurt them for years to come (and I get no joy from saying that).

The club must have realised how badly they misjudged the pricing last year, with all of the discounts offered. I didn't renew my season ticket last summer because of the disastrous pricing strategy. I am a supporter, but money is tight. I have to get value for money for every penny I spend, and I didn't feel I got value for money last year - it would have been cheaper for me to pay per match last season. My attendance this season has been patchy, as it is too easy to come up with a excuse for missing a game here and there.

The Club is to take sole blame for poor attendances? Absolute tosh!

You then go on to shoot yourself in the foot by saying your 'patchy' attendance was down to it being \"Too easy to come up with 'a' excuse for missing a game here & there\". !!!

You're not a supporter.

You might be a 'fan', but 'supporters', by that very name, support the Club & the team by putting their hands in their pockets....REGULARLY!

I'd have more respect & sympathy for your post if you had left it by saying the reason you aren't attending many games was due to your own financial restraints but no, you want value for your money & you \"Didn't feel I got value for money last year...\".

If you insist on 'value for money' every time you dip your hand in your pocket, you've picked the wrong sport, club & team mate & I'd appreciate it if you'd stop sullying the term 'supporter' by including the likes of yourself in their ranks. Think on!

You're jumping to incorrect conclusions (no surprise there).

The excuses are financially related. I never said the excuses were not financially related. I did not say I missed some games this season due to not getting value money. I said I didn't feel that I got value for money last season. The reason I have missed some games this season is because of bills to pay. If the season ticket was more affordable (or allowed payment in 10 monthly instalments last year) then I would have bought one, and attended every game this season.

I don't mind having a discussion about issues where people have different points of view, but I hate people wrongfully stating that I said something. It does your argument no good when you blatantly lie.

I am a supporter, but the cost of supporting is getting too great. I would be there every week if our prices were more realistic. For example, next season Barnsley charge £330 for a season ticket in a comparable position to our East and West stands. Rovers are charging £419. Barnsley is a town comparable to Doncaster, in terms of economy, unemployment, \"bigger\" clubs nearby. Their prices are more realistic.

I've paid more money to the club this season than probably most other \"supporters\". I think that gives me the right to use the word \"supporter\".

Jump to more conclusions, please. It only decreases the respect that people will have for you.

As for your comment \"The Club is to take sole blame for poor attendances? Absolute tosh!\", I apologise on behalf of all fans. Of course, it was us who set the pricing that stopped many people from going who couldn't afford it.

So WBDRFC, as you are adamant that you are a supporter, could you please enlighten me as to \"the all too easy excuses\" you console & busy yourself with when the Rovers are desperately in need of getting those turnstiles turning? Please define 'easy excuses' for me, me being one of the blind herd that turns up to applaud, encourage, 'head every ball', 'make every tackle', shout \"Man on!\", \"Play it wide!\", \"Foul, handball, offside, rubbish ref!\". You see I feel a fool now, cos that's why I've classed myself a supporter all these years & hey you'll laugh at this, I actually travel from Burnley for the pleasure!

[WBDRFC]

How about the apathy shown by the general Doncaster public towards the club?

Where are the ones who turned up in their droves at The Millenium & Wembley?

I'm sure the lack of bums on seats, & I don't just mean this season, even took JR by surprise.

The club is to blame solely for the disappointing attendances.

The pricing strategy over the last 4 years has been a big mistake. The club thought they could charge similar amounts to \"larger\" Championship clubs (Sheff Utd, Norwich, Leicester). In reality, the town is in a much worse position with higher unemployment, lower wages and less loyalty to the club. The club was greedy, and it's going to hurt them for years to come (and I get no joy from saying that).

The club must have realised how badly they misjudged the pricing last year, with all of the discounts offered. I didn't renew my season ticket last summer because of the disastrous pricing strategy. I am a supporter, but money is tight. I have to get value for money for every penny I spend, and I didn't feel I got value for money last year - it would have been cheaper for me to pay per match last season. My attendance this season has been patchy, as it is too easy to come up with a excuse for missing a game here and there.

The Club is to take sole blame for poor attendances? Absolute tosh!

You then go on to shoot yourself in the foot by saying your 'patchy' attendance was down to it being \"Too easy to come up with 'a' excuse for missing a game here & there\". !!!

You're not a supporter.

You might be a 'fan', but 'supporters', by that very name, support the Club & the team by putting their hands in their pockets....REGULARLY!

I'd have more respect & sympathy for your post if you had left it by saying the reason you aren't attending many games was due to your own financial restraints but no, you want value for your money & you \"Didn't feel I got value for money last year...\".

If you insist on 'value for money' every time you dip your hand in your pocket, you've picked the wrong sport, club & team mate & I'd appreciate it if you'd stop sullying the term 'supporter' by including the likes of yourself in their ranks. Think on!

You're jumping to incorrect conclusions (no surprise there).

The excuses are financially related. I never said the excuses were not financially related. I did not say I missed some games this season due to not getting value money. I said I didn't feel that I got value for money last season. The reason I have missed some games this season is because of bills to pay. If the season ticket was more affordable (or allowed payment in 10 monthly instalments last year) then I would have bought one, and attended every game this season.

I don't mind having a discussion about issues where people have different points of view, but I hate people wrongfully stating that I said something. It does your argument no good when you blatantly lie.

I am a supporter, but the cost of supporting is getting too great. I would be there every week if our prices were more realistic. For example, next season Barnsley charge £330 for a season ticket in a comparable position to our East and West stands. Rovers are charging £419. Barnsley is a town comparable to Doncaster, in terms of economy, unemployment, \"bigger\" clubs nearby. Their prices are more realistic.

I've paid more money to the club this season than probably most other \"supporters\". I think that gives me the right to use the word \"supporter\".

Jump to more conclusions, please. It only decreases the respect that people will have for you.

As for your comment \"The Club is to take sole blame for poor attendances? Absolute tosh!\", I apologise on behalf of all fans. Of course, it was us who set the pricing that stopped many people from going who couldn't afford it.

So WBDRFC, as you are adamant that you are a supporter, could you please enlighten me as to \"the all too easy excuses\" you console & busy yourself with when the Rovers are desperately in need of getting those turnstiles turning? Please define 'easy excuses' for me, me being one of the blind herd that turns up to applaud, encourage, 'head every ball', 'make every tackle', shout \"Man on!\", \"Play it wide!\", \"Foul, handball, offside, rubbish ref!\". You see I feel a fool now, cos that's why I've classed myself a supporter all these years & hey you'll laugh at this, I actually travel from Burnley for the pleasure!

Sure. Here's one simple reason... I spend many days working in London. During the week, I can get a train back to Doncaster for £20 if I get a train at 10pm, or £50 if I get a train at 5pm so I can get to an evening game on a Tuesday or Friday.
I also lose out on a couple of hours of work if I was to get the earlier train - which, as a freelancer, costs money.

Can I justify paying an extra £30 for a train to then pay £80 to take the family to a game. No. If it was cheaper to watch Rovers then I would.

There have been quite a few home games on a weekday this season. And those are the games I have missed.

At the end of the day, I am as much a supporter as you. I'm just not willing to make my family homeless for the sake of the club. That wouldn't show I was a supporter - it would show I was insane.

Burnley? Yes, I will laugh. I used to travel from the south coast every week to watch the team 30 years ago (7 hours each-way, before the M25 was built). Makes Burnley seem like a 10 minute walk away.

[Colin C No.3]

Colin C and WBDRFC's comments are interesting. The whole pricing of football debate is worthy of greater understanding. I see Colin's view as a more traditionalist one where a supporter consistently and without question pays to watch the club play. WBDRFC cites \"value for money\" in his criteria for supporting the club.

If we put season tickets to one side, watching your club play on a match by match basis has become, certainly in the Football League, a luxury pastime rather than something you could do on the spur of the moment. Twenty five pounds (as an example) is for many people in Doncaster, too high a price for ninety minutes of entertainment. Such is the nature of football that entertainment is not guaranteed and therefore WBDRFC's point about perceived value for money is valid as the high price is not easily funded by many. The more you pay for something, the more you naturally expect in return.

Colin's point about regular support is true and is vital to every club. However, due to the every increasing cost that regular support has become fragmented and it is very difficult to get those lost supporters back in the fold.

Is there a solution to this problem? I'd like to know.

Sensible post, after Colin C's rant. One correction... \"value for money\" is not a criteria for supporting the club. Value for money was the reason for not renewing my season ticket. Affordability is the criteria for attending every match.

The problem for me is that the cost of taking the family to one game is way too high - with tickets, parking, programme, food/drinks, half-time draw ticket (I know, I get sucked in). It easily costs over £80 for 90 minutes of entertainment. When money is tight, there are much cheaper ways to keep the family entertained on a Saturday afternoon.
Admittedly, after spending £80 at the Derby game (whoever decided that was category A should be sacked!), I did feel like I had been robbed. It would have been quicker and less painful if somebody had stolen my wallet.

I've mentioned before on this forum that football is in the entertainment business - as much as traditional \"supporters\" don't like to hear it. Clubs have to compete with other entertainment, and the costs, and sometimes the enjoyment, are not as attracting as other things.

Football needs casual fans to survive. Rovers have a core support of maybe 1-2,000 hardcore supporters, who will still go even if we are back in the conference. Casual fans can be converted into hardcore supporters over time, but they are also easily turned off by poor performances or ticket prices that are too high. And I think it is the ticket prices that is having an impact on the attendances at Rovers.

Colin C may be critical of people who use the term \"supporter\" loosely, but casual fans (or \"un-loyal supporters\" are what keeps the club in business. If some people, such as Colin C, are using multi-tier definitions of the word \"supporter\" that will deter casual fans from attending, as they will be seen as second-class. Without casual fans, any club in the football league will soon go bust.

As for the OP question of \"Who is to blame for this shambles\", I think it is the short-sighted approach to pricing. Attendances have been falling since the first season in the Championship, so it is not solely due to the poor performances of the last 15 months. The falling attendances are having an impact on the club's finances, and that reduces the quality of players we can sign or who we can hang onto. That is the reason the state we are in. The team is not good enough, and never will be irrespective of who is manager - until the club's finances are in a better state.

Thanks WBDRFC. Now that you've correctly re-defined yourself as a casual fan rather than a supporter, I feel that my work here is done.

[WBDRFC]

Colin C and WBDRFC's comments are interesting. The whole pricing of football debate is worthy of greater understanding. I see Colin's view as a more traditionalist one where a supporter consistently and without question pays to watch the club play. WBDRFC cites \"value for money\" in his criteria for supporting the club.

If we put season tickets to one side, watching your club play on a match by match basis has become, certainly in the Football League, a luxury pastime rather than something you could do on the spur of the moment. Twenty five pounds (as an example) is for many people in Doncaster, too high a price for ninety minutes of entertainment. Such is the nature of football that entertainment is not guaranteed and therefore WBDRFC's point about perceived value for money is valid as the high price is not easily funded by many. The more you pay for something, the more you naturally expect in return.

Colin's point about regular support is true and is vital to every club. However, due to the every increasing cost that regular support has become fragmented and it is very difficult to get those lost supporters back in the fold.

Is there a solution to this problem? I'd like to know.

Sensible post, after Colin C's rant. One correction... \"value for money\" is not a criteria for supporting the club. Value for money was the reason for not renewing my season ticket. Affordability is the criteria for attending every match.

The problem for me is that the cost of taking the family to one game is way too high - with tickets, parking, programme, food/drinks, half-time draw ticket (I know, I get sucked in). It easily costs over £80 for 90 minutes of entertainment. When money is tight, there are much cheaper ways to keep the family entertained on a Saturday afternoon.
Admittedly, after spending £80 at the Derby game (whoever decided that was category A should be sacked!), I did feel like I had been robbed. It would have been quicker and less painful if somebody had stolen my wallet.

I've mentioned before on this forum that football is in the entertainment business - as much as traditional \"supporters\" don't like to hear it. Clubs have to compete with other entertainment, and the costs, and sometimes the enjoyment, are not as attracting as other things.

Football needs casual fans to survive. Rovers have a core support of maybe 1-2,000 hardcore supporters, who will still go even if we are back in the conference. Casual fans can be converted into hardcore supporters over time, but they are also easily turned off by poor performances or ticket prices that are too high. And I think it is the ticket prices that is having an impact on the attendances at Rovers.

Colin C may be critical of people who use the term \"supporter\" loosely, but casual fans (or \"un-loyal supporters\" are what keeps the club in business. If some people, such as Colin C, are using multi-tier definitions of the word \"supporter\" that will deter casual fans from attending, as they will be seen as second-class. Without casual fans, any club in the football league will soon go bust.

As for the OP question of \"Who is to blame for this shambles\", I think it is the short-sighted approach to pricing. Attendances have been falling since the first season in the Championship, so it is not solely due to the poor performances of the last 15 months. The falling attendances are having an impact on the club's finances, and that reduces the quality of players we can sign or who we can hang onto. That is the reason the state we are in. The team is not good enough, and never will be irrespective of who is manager - until the club's finances are in a better state.

Thanks WBDRFC. Now that you've correctly re-defined yourself as a casual fan rather than a supporter, I feel that my work here is done.

You have a real problem reading Colin, I see. You like to think you're seeing something that isn't actually there. Should go to Specsavers mate. They have some good deals on glasses at the moment.

[graingrover]

Personally Ido not blame any of the incumbents , neither Saunders nor Ryan .I do think this forum   has lost it's way . I get the overwhelming impresssion that lots of posters know how we should be run yet most of them do not even have the decency to subscribe to the Vikings supporters co operative .Check it out for yourselves .

[The L J Monk]

lots of posters know how we should be run yet most of them do not even have the decency to subscribe to the Vikings supporters co operative...

Uh-oh...

[Mr1Croft]

Colin C and WBDRFC's comments are interesting. The whole pricing of football debate is worthy of greater understanding. I see Colin's view as a more traditionalist one where a supporter consistently and without question pays to watch the club play. WBDRFC cites \"value for money\" in his criteria for supporting the club.

If we put season tickets to one side, watching your club play on a match by match basis has become, certainly in the Football League, a luxury pastime rather than something you could do on the spur of the moment. Twenty five pounds (as an example) is for many people in Doncaster, too high a price for ninety minutes of entertainment. Such is the nature of football that entertainment is not guaranteed and therefore WBDRFC's point about perceived value for money is valid as the high price is not easily funded by many. The more you pay for something, the more you naturally expect in return.

Colin's point about regular support is true and is vital to every club. However, due to the every increasing cost that regular support has become fragmented and it is very difficult to get those lost supporters back in the fold.

Is there a solution to this problem? I'd like to know.

Sensible post, after Colin C's rant. One correction... \"value for money\" is not a criteria for supporting the club. Value for money was the reason for not renewing my season ticket. Affordability is the criteria for attending every match.

The problem for me is that the cost of taking the family to one game is way too high - with tickets, parking, programme, food/drinks, half-time draw ticket (I know, I get sucked in). It easily costs over £80 for 90 minutes of entertainment. When money is tight, there are much cheaper ways to keep the family entertained on a Saturday afternoon.
Admittedly, after spending £80 at the Derby game (whoever decided that was category A should be sacked!), I did feel like I had been robbed. It would have been quicker and less painful if somebody had stolen my wallet.

I've mentioned before on this forum that football is in the entertainment business - as much as traditional \"supporters\" don't like to hear it. Clubs have to compete with other entertainment, and the costs, and sometimes the enjoyment, are not as attracting as other things.

Football needs casual fans to survive. Rovers have a core support of maybe 1-2,000 hardcore supporters, who will still go even if we are back in the conference. Casual fans can be converted into hardcore supporters over time, but they are also easily turned off by poor performances or ticket prices that are too high. And I think it is the ticket prices that is having an impact on the attendances at Rovers.

Colin C may be critical of people who use the term \"supporter\" loosely, but casual fans (or \"un-loyal supporters\" are what keeps the club in business. If some people, such as Colin C, are using multi-tier definitions of the word \"supporter\" that will deter casual fans from attending, as they will be seen as second-class. Without casual fans, any club in the football league will soon go bust.

As for the OP question of \"Who is to blame for this shambles\", I think it is the short-sighted approach to pricing. Attendances have been falling since the first season in the Championship, so it is not solely due to the poor performances of the last 15 months. The falling attendances are having an impact on the club's finances, and that reduces the quality of players we can sign or who we can hang onto. That is the reason the state we are in. The team is not good enough, and never will be irrespective of who is manager - until the club's finances are in a better state.

Thanks WBDRFC. Now that you've correctly re-defined yourself as a casual fan rather than a supporter, I feel that my work here is done.

Apologies if I have mis-understood the situation here, but let me get this straight? You think that the sole reason why Doncaster Rovers are now on the brink of playing in League One next year is down to the town of Doncaster for not filling the stadium. To build on this argument you decide to describe someone who maybe doesn't get to as many games as yourself due to perfectly good reasons a 'casual fan' as supposed to a supporter.

Now I don't consider myself an expert in marketing techniques but I don't think comments like that branding yourself more loyal than the average fan is going to result in a rise in attendances. Surely your vendetta should be against the people who just sit at home and let their own community club fail as opposed to labeling the people who make as many games as possible just a casual fan?

[Goldthorpe Rover]

I agree with an earlier post the time around Paul Green going it started going down hill for me. Cannot blame Saunders for all thats gone on but he is part of our problem at this moment in time.