No Brexit Extension

[BigH]

I'll give you one positive for BREXIT...

Manufacturers of red tape will see their sales sky rocket.

Au contraire tommy.

No more red tape apparently...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Katoe, there are two big reasons to leave in my post, I am trying to satisfy your questioning of reasons to leave.
  The answer to your list of goodies is at what cost? and the Question as life develops and countries, would the population have gained those improvements to general life without being a member of the EU? and would the EU have gained so many advantages without our considerable financial input over the years?
 

The EEC did pretty well for 20 years before we joined. All six countries went from having weaker economies than ours, to having stronger ones. That is why we were desperate to join.

There's a term for your attitude Selby. "British Exceptionalism".

You automatically assume that we are inherently better than our neighbours, rather than see us as one strong, mature country among many.

[BigH]

And it was that most ardent patriot, Margaret Thatcher, who championed the Single Market.

This from the Margaret Thatcher Foundation:

https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219

[wilts rover]

If Boris Johnson ever finds out that it was Boris Johnson who struck the deal that Boris Johnson says is unfair then Boris Johnson will be in big trouble with Boris Johnson.

https://twitter.com/gavinesler/status/1269562330322481152

[selby]

 Billy, you thinking that I think I am better than others takes the biscuit when you have been preaching down and continue to do so for the last four years as now Tyke is finding out, to disagree with you and your disciples is to start off a never ending speel of disgust and insults.
 Anyway even you and some of the other idiots must realise that when shove comes to push the EU/ECB don't give a s***e about treaties.
  The ECB by treaty law is prohibited from continually supporting Italy or any other country independently. To legalise what has been happening  the European Court of Justice (Weiss Case) has ruled that previous actions by the ECB were legal if used on a temporary basis, they have been doing it since 2015.
  You and I know there is no way the ECB can stop supporting Italy without the whole Euro ponzi scheme collapsing. So the situation is either stop their support (politically a non starter) or try to get the treaties changed by agreement of all the countries involved ( no chance) or try to ignore the unfortunate necessities of law and carry on regardless.
  I suggest a quick read of an article in Positive Money.
    Treaty change the only solution for the ECB after court ruling by Stanislas Jourdan on May 7 2020.
   There are a few points worth noting and I know how some on here like to do their homework, the Italian interpretation of treaties especially.
  The continual Quantitative Easing programme is also a way of Federalists in the EU bringing about the mutualisation of debt (by the back door) as a precursor to the EU wide budgeting taxation and debt management therefore moving towards further federalisation of Europe.
   I hope Kato will also accept some of this as reasons to get the hell out of it.

[BigH]

Selby, if I were you I really wouldn't get into a lather about this.

We have left the EU. There is nothing more to say on the matter, surely?

[selby]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

[BigH]

Hmm, so this raises an interesting point.

If we think that the EU is going to be so materially weakened economically by events, then should we push for a trade agreement now or should we hold off until events come to pass and the EU should, in theory, be begging for us to trade with them on whatever terms we like? The latter would suggest that we seek an extension to the current negotiations.

[selby]

  Nice twist H, don't hold your breath buddy it will do well to go past the end of this month. There is no way we want to be in when the begging bowl starts to be passed around.
  If Germany don't want to come out to play it will be fun and games.
 Of course if we do not have to make any contributions, make our own laws, and we can form free trade agreements with other countries like the USA and it was beneficial not to disrupt trade for the EU to to carry on trading with the UK I could then see a reason to extend a couple of years, just in the name of friendship and so there is no hard feelings.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'd still like to know what you think a Free Trade Agreement actually entails.

[BigH]

  Nice twist H, don't hold your breath buddy it will do well to go past the end of this month. There is no way we want to be in when the begging bowl starts to be passed around.
  If Germany don't want to come out to play it will be fun and games.
 Of course if we do not have to make any contributions, make our own laws, and we can form free trade agreements with other countries like the USA and it was beneficial not to disrupt trade for the EU to to carry on trading with the UK I could then see a reason to extend a couple of years, just in the name of friendship and so there is no hard feelings.

I'm being serious.

We're not still 'in' by the way; we're out and we've agreed a financial settlement which we'll be expected to honour. We have no obligation to pay any more financial contributions.

This is where people get confused. They think that adopting a politically-based approach will get us a great commercial outcome. It won't. When it comes to commercial agreements, in my experience politicians often look through the wrong end of the telescope. Focus on numbers, assumptions, planning, deliverability and sensitivity analysis is often forsaken in favour of the 'optics' and how it will play with the party, the press and the voters.

So, putting an entirely commercial head on, logic suggests that we keep the opponent at bay until they are weakened. We can then push for the best outcome. Not a bad tactic.

Of course, the working assumption is that the EU ends up being more ph**ked than us.

[Not Now Kato]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

[Ldr]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

[wilts rover]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

We can have more money laundering, less nuclear safety and lower food standards. What's not to like there?

[Ldr]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

We can have more money laundering, less nuclear safety and lower food standards. What's not to like there?

You'd sell your soul for a piece of silver

[Not Now Kato]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
 
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.

[Ldr]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
 
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.

In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not

[Not Now Kato]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
 
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.

In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not

So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty?  That ship sailed many moons ago.

[IDM]

  Nice twist H, don't hold your breath buddy it will do well to go past the end of this month. There is no way we want to be in when the begging bowl starts to be passed around.
  If Germany don't want to come out to play it will be fun and games.
 Of course if we do not have to make any contributions, make our own laws, and we can form free trade agreements with other countries like the USA and it was beneficial not to disrupt trade for the EU to to carry on trading with the UK I could then see a reason to extend a couple of years, just in the name of friendship and so there is no hard feelings.

We are not in, we left the EU in January.

[Ldr]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
 
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.

In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not

So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty?  That ship sailed many moons ago.

Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver

[selby]

  If anyone on this thread thinks that extending the withdrawal period would not come with financial penalties being imposed on us by the EU for the right to do so are deluded.
 Be under no illusion, the main reason they would want us to extend is for what we contribute to them. It is the biggest Ponzi scheme ever devised.

[Not Now Kato]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
 
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.

In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not

So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty?  That ship sailed many moons ago.

Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver

Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!

[Ldr]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
 
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.

In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not

So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty?  That ship sailed many moons ago.

Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver

Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!

Nope, I dont do 'what if?' Sob stories

I vote for what is best for me, not others as we all do. I am only responsible for my family, not yours or others

[Not Now Kato]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
 
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.

In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not

So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty?  That ship sailed many moons ago.

Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver

Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!

I vote for what is best for me, not others as we all do. I am only responsible for my family, not yours or others

And that is a classic example of everything that is wrong in this country.  The ME ME ME attitude and stuff everybody else!
 
To say that we all do is beneath contempt and I would have expected better.

[Ldr]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
 
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.

In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not

So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty?  That ship sailed many moons ago.

Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver

Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!

I vote for what is best for me, not others as we all do. I am only responsible for my family, not yours or others

And that is a classic example of everything that is wrong in this country.  The ME ME ME attitude and stuff everybody else!
 
To say that we all do is beneath contempt and I would have expected better.

I'm honest enough to admit how my thought processes work. I dont wish any I'll on you or anyone else NNK but I honestly dont care, my responsibility is to do what I think is best for my son. Whether you disagree with that is up to you, again what you or others think isn't my concern

[DonnyOsmond]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
 
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.

In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not

So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty?  That ship sailed many moons ago.

Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver

Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!

Nope, I dont do 'what if?' Sob stories

I vote for what is best for me, not others as we all do. I am only responsible for my family, not yours or others

We don't all vote based what's purely best for ourselves.

[Ldr]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
 
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.

In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not

So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty?  That ship sailed many moons ago.

Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver

Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!

Nope, I dont do 'what if?' Sob stories

I vote for what is best for me, not others as we all do. I am only responsible for my family, not yours or others

We don't all vote based what's purely best for ourselves.

I should have said "should" not "does"

[BillyStubbsTears]

Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my  answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.

selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong.  That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
 
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.

We wont be part of a federal europe.

And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
 
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.

In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not

Except, as I've pointed out before, a couple of years back, you got VERY agitated about a sum of money that you suggested we were paying to the EU that in fact we weren't. So the claims that finances don't come into your calculations are stretching credibility.

Regardless of that, your suggestion that this is a binary choice is a silly one. Every country, at all times makes choices between sovereignty and economics. The question is, where so you draw the line?

So, rather than postulate a straw man (that it is a binary choice between freedom or wealth) you could perhaps explain what freedom we gain by leaving that balances the likely 5-10% loss of GDP (with all the consequent effects that will have on our ability to do the things we would like to do as a free country).

[Ldr]

Ah here comes BST, the answer to a question no one asked. Please note I wasnt actually talking to you on this occasion and have no desire to do so until you stop taking down to ppl and patronising on your posts, goodnight

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr. If you don't want other people to join in discussions, stick to PMs.

As for condescending, I'm merely pointing out that a binary "Liberty" or "Wealth" choice doesn't really describe how the real world works. We all make compromises.

If you find that condescending, then we are struggling to have a grown up discussion on a vitally important issue.