Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on August 14, 2020, 11:37:51 am
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Looking like a right f**k up, the way this has been handled.
Basically, with exams being cancelled, they are going on teachers' opinions of what students would have got.
But it's generally thought that teachers have inflated opinions of their own students' abilities. So the marks that teachers gave students have generally been pushed down by the Govt-designed algorithm.
So you get idiotic outcomes like this, which are truly life-changing and not in a good way.
https://mobile.twitter.com/emilypettite/status/1293823551506731008
And here's the rub. The "algorithm" doesn't apply that downgrade for students who were taught in groups of 15 or less. Because it's said to be not statistically sensible to do that.
So, students taught in small classes get the results their teachers' predict.
And which schools typically teach in small classes? Fee-paying I dependent schools for the children of the wealthy of course.
And go on...have a guess what has happened to A-A* grades for students from Independent schools.
Go on. Have a guess.
They've gone up from 44% last year to 49% this year. While brilliant kids from comps in Hartlepool like the one in that tweet are being systematically downgraded.
Independent fee paying school are the only ones who have seen an increase in A and A* results outside the normal year to year variations. So one outcome of COVID is that the rich will see their kids get more chance of securing places at the elite Universities and setting themselves up for life.
Class warfare, right under your noses. By the Govt that conned northern working class people that it is on their side.
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Another one.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1294039444446752771
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Take the advice of this t**t born into privilege
https://twitter.com/jimbethell/status/1293905136687804417?s=21
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Absolute f**king bell end.
"I f**ked up despite the silver spoon I was given. Taught me how to bullshit my way through life instead of contributing something tangible."
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Absolute f**king bell end.
"I f**ked up despite the silver spoon I was given. Taught me how to bullshit my way through life instead of contributing something tangible."
Yes he must think we’re all as stupid as him, he took his A-Levels and f**ked up, this years crop never got the chance to do them but still got penalised
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I've told ours not to take anything for granted this year, all the course work, tests and mocks need to be taken seriously, if she wants to go to the type of uni she's set her heart on.
Because come the summer, the exams might not even happen and then you're at the mercy of this lot. So the stats throughout the year have to be consistntly good.
As if the pressure wasn't bad enough already.
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I can't begin to imagine how the 5th Baron Bethell managed drag himself up by his bootstraps from his humble and scarred beginnings, having the overwhelming disadvantage of being educated at Harrow and nothing but extensive family contacts to fall back on when he had to "hustle his way into University".
I truly fail to grasp why every student who has been f**ked over by this Govt's A-Level algorithm can't get off their arse and hustle their way into an elite University. They must be f**king bone idle.
And to think, there are still folk who genuinely believe the Tories are on the side of the little person.
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Good luck RD. But things will only change if enough folk start screaming about this utter disgrace.
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Doesn't that weighting towards those being taught in smaller class sizes implicitly undermine the government's longstanding assertion that larger class sizes in the state sector don't affect the quality of teaching?
I rather think it does.
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RD.
I think it's a different issue. The argument is that in large cohorts, you can have an expectation of the average performance year-on-year. So if the teachers' predictions are way outside that, you pull them back into line by adding a correction to the grades. And there is an argument that that statistical approach shouldn't work with small groups, because there's less certainty that a small group is representative of what you'd expect as an average.
2 problems with that.
1) The algorithm is obviously f**king useless if a student who got AAA in mocks, and A*A*A in predicted grades gets awarded BBC.
2) That approach doesn't apply any correction at all to small group cohorts. And it's clear that fee paying Independent schools have over-predicted the grades of the rich kids and had it nodded through.
This is truly outrageous.
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And another one.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KateClanchy1/status/1293934966703820803
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It's an impossible task and they've got a lot right, but also a number wrong, exactly what you'd expect. It's an impossible situation. I think the weighting for independent schools is questionable, but actually when you compare the rest it overly doesn't look too outrageous.
The big problem is how do you treat the outliers in schools. My school was a failing school with really low grades. I'd have been screwed in this situation. What they need to do is apply a sensible appeals process and quickly for those examples. On a whole the numbers look fine, but not analysing each case is wrong in my view.
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And another https://twitter.com/lionelbarber/status/1293969480046059520?s=19
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It's not just an English scandal this though is it?
The calculation of results in Scotland (SNP administration) also produced outcomes which benefitted those from more affluent areas. They have obviously now u-turned and gone with the teachers' estimates, which has produced a significantly inflated set of results compared to previous years.
I'm not sure which is worse, although the latter is more politically beneficial to the Scottish govt in the short term.
And similar to England, 40% of Welsh students have also had their results downgraded under the Labour administration, although there doesn't yet appear to be any figures on whether this benefits schools in more affluent areas.
It just seems obvious that there is no fair way of producing a legitimate set of exam results without the actual exams taking place.
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It's an impossible task and they've got a lot right, but also a number wrong, exactly what you'd expect. It's an impossible situation. I think the weighting for independent schools is questionable, but actually when you compare the rest it overly doesn't look too outrageous.
The big problem is how do you treat the outliers in schools. My school was a failing school with really low grades. I'd have been screwed in this situation. What they need to do is apply a sensible appeals process and quickly for those examples. On a whole the numbers look fine, but not analysing each case is wrong in my view.
I totally agree BFYP. It IS an impossible task. There is never going to be a perfect solution, partly because some people won’t allow there to be. Hopefully, this unprecedented (yes, that word again) academic year will allow an appeals process that will even things out a little and the qualifications for our young people will be as fair and as accurate as can be.
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What happened to the triple-lock thing they were talking about the other day where they were saying students would only get grades as low as their mocks or something? What have I missed?
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It's not just an English scandal this though is it?
The calculation of results in Scotland (SNP administration) also produced outcomes which benefitted those from more affluent areas. They have obviously now u-turned and gone with the teachers' estimates, which has produced a significantly inflated set of results compared to previous years.
I'm not sure which is worse, although the latter is more politically beneficial to the Scottish govt in the short term.
And similar to England, 40% of Welsh students have also had their results downgraded under the Labour administration, although there doesn't yet appear to be any figures on whether this benefits schools in more affluent areas.
It just seems obvious that there is no fair way of producing a legitimate set of exam results without the actual exams taking place.
Inflation against previous or future years is irrelevant. The certificates will always have "2020" stamped on them and future employers will be stupid not to take that into consideration.
What is FAR more important is fairness across THIS year cohort, in terms of University access. The Govt had had 5 months to get that right and they have totally f**ked up.
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I agree that this was a tough one to get perfectly right.
But you could have put good money on the outcome being one that systematically favoured independent schools, couldn't you?
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It's not just an English scandal this though is it?
The calculation of results in Scotland (SNP administration) also produced outcomes which benefitted those from more affluent areas. They have obviously now u-turned and gone with the teachers' estimates, which has produced a significantly inflated set of results compared to previous years.
I'm not sure which is worse, although the latter is more politically beneficial to the Scottish govt in the short term.
And similar to England, 40% of Welsh students have also had their results downgraded under the Labour administration, although there doesn't yet appear to be any figures on whether this benefits schools in more affluent areas.
It just seems obvious that there is no fair way of producing a legitimate set of exam results without the actual exams taking place.
Inflation against previous or future years is irrelevant. The certificates will always have "2020" stamped on them and future employers will be stupid not to take that into consideration.
What is FAR more important is fairness across THIS year cohort, in terms of University access. The Govt had had 5 months to get that right and they have totally f**ked up.
I don’t think in years to come the year of the qualification will really matter at all.
However, if it did, what would future employers be considering? If you are right about private v state schools and this being totally unfair to working class northerners, then employers would be looking more favourable towards the working class because they will be aware that they are better than their 2020 grades suggest.
You can’t have it all ways.
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I agree that this was a tough one to get perfectly right.
But you could have put good money on the outcome being one that systematically favoured independent schools, couldn't you?
But isn’t that always the outcome? (I haven’t got the statistics to back this up, just an educated guess)
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It's not just an English scandal this though is it?
The calculation of results in Scotland (SNP administration) also produced outcomes which benefitted those from more affluent areas. They have obviously now u-turned and gone with the teachers' estimates, which has produced a significantly inflated set of results compared to previous years.
I'm not sure which is worse, although the latter is more politically beneficial to the Scottish govt in the short term.
And similar to England, 40% of Welsh students have also had their results downgraded under the Labour administration, although there doesn't yet appear to be any figures on whether this benefits schools in more affluent areas.
It just seems obvious that there is no fair way of producing a legitimate set of exam results without the actual exams taking place.
Inflation against previous or future years is irrelevant. The certificates will always have "2020" stamped on them and future employers will be stupid not to take that into consideration.
What is FAR more important is fairness across THIS year cohort, in terms of University access. The Govt had had 5 months to get that right and they have totally f**ked up.
Surely inflation matters when there is an upper limit, i.e. you can't get a higher grade than A*?
Even if the year is taken into consideration, if more people get A* then there's still less of a distinction between those with inflated grades and those who would've achieved it anyway.
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Belton.
By a long,long way, the most important aspect of A-Levels is their role in allocating university places in a given year. Everything else is a long, long way secondary to that. We have set up a system that has demonstrably advantaged independent school kids over state school kids on that issue. There will be thousands of independent school kids who win university places (and all that means for future life prospects) ahead of state school kids who should have won those places.
The role of A-Levels in securing jobs in far distant future years (when you think employers might have forgotten about COVID - I disagree by the way, I'd be amazed if this year isn't seared onto our memories) is a tiny issue by comparison.
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Pilskin
Ok, so if you accept that argument, why isn't it also applied to small cohort groups, who haven't had their results downgraded?
As I say, the process has been applied to downgrade the marks of state school kids, but overwhelmingly not to those from Independent schools.
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I agree that this was a tough one to get perfectly right.
But you could have put good money on the outcome being one that systematically favoured independent schools, couldn't you?
But isn’t that always the outcome? (I haven’t got the statistics to back this up, just an educated guess)
I suppose people could have put money on the outcome but funnily enough I never heard anyone mention this before the last day or two.
Hindsight eh.
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Belton.
By a long,long way, the most important aspect of A-Levels is their role in allocating university places in a given year. Everything else is a long, long way secondary to that. We have set up a system that has demonstrably advantaged independent school kids over state school kids on that issue. There will be thousands of independent school kids who win university places (and all that means for future life prospects) ahead of state school kids who should have won those places.
The role of A-Levels in securing jobs in far distant future years (when you think employers might have forgotten about COVID - I disagree by the way, I'd be amazed if this year isn't seared onto our memories) is a tiny issue by comparison.
I was replying to your first paragraph.
On this year and university access, the government have always said they expect the appeals process to be significantly more accessible and widely used.
My son and daughter have just received their AS results (not A2, granted). My boy has the qualiifications his college submitted, my daughter was downgraded. With help from her college, the appeals process has begun. As a parent, I am totally happy with this procedure. After the appeals process, we will see.
Do you really think that the government’s thinking is that Covid 19 is a great excuse to f**k up the lives of the next generation of working class northerners?
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BST
I'm not arguing in favour of the system that has been used though.
More that an alternative which produces grade inflation will also be unfair on genuine high achievers regardless of background because the highest grades will be devalued.
But ultimately, any system which assigns grades without an assessment taking place will be unfair.
Surely there is a better way than this?
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Belton.
No, I'd like to think that is not the explicit thinking.
But then I'd be a fool not to look at past examples of where Tory Governments have looked after their own at the expense of the working class.
In 2010, in the very first few weeks after coming to power, the Tories slashed local Govt funding for northern councils and increased them across the south.
They slashed state school spending in a scale never seen before, while reducing the top rate of tax.
They stopped the flat rate grant to all child trust funds which were aimed at giving the poorest kids a leg up, on the grounds that...Austerity...while at the same time giving enormous tax breaks to people who could afford to put £1000/month into private trust funds for their kids.
So, to be honest, when I see another Tory policy unfairly advantaging the rich at the expense of the rest [1] I reckon the onus is on them to explain and correct, not on me to give them.the benefit of the doubt.
I accept you may see it differently.
[1] The appeals issue, by the way, is missing the point. Even if state school kids win their appeals, the playing field is still unfairly slanted against them. They will be getting the outcomes they deserved. No independent school kid who has had their grades wrong INFLATED is going to be downgraded. So there's still a systemic negative against state school kids, even after the emotional stress of going through an appeal.
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Hound.
The other thing I'd have put money on would have been you ignoring the core issue and trying to have a personal dig. Living proof that maturity doesn't always come with age.
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It's not just an English scandal this though is it?
The calculation of results in Scotland (SNP administration) also produced outcomes which benefitted those from more affluent areas. They have obviously now u-turned and gone with the teachers' estimates, which has produced a significantly inflated set of results compared to previous years.
I'm not sure which is worse, although the latter is more politically beneficial to the Scottish govt in the short term.
And similar to England, 40% of Welsh students have also had their results downgraded under the Labour administration, although there doesn't yet appear to be any figures on whether this benefits schools in more affluent areas.
It just seems obvious that there is no fair way of producing a legitimate set of exam results without the actual exams taking place.
Inflation against previous or future years is irrelevant. The certificates will always have "2020" stamped on them and future employers will be stupid not to take that into consideration.
What is FAR more important is fairness across THIS year cohort, in terms of University access. The Govt had had 5 months to get that right and they have totally f**ked up.
As has been widely said, there is no way to resolve the current situation that is fair to all – there will be winners and losers. So IMHO the best solution would be not to add extra man-made unfairness into the mix, and accept all predicted grades. As BST says, the grades will have 2020 stamped on them and that will become known as the year of increased number of top grades. This has been called by some as a lack of credibility, but surely that is overall fairer (and thus better) and what is happening now.
Unfairness is not new, and my daughter suffered from unnecessary tinkering at A-level German 10 years ago. She was at an international school in the Netherlands following the British curriculum. I speak German after living there for a while. My daughter had German friends (among other nationalities) and she took advantage of her unusual chance to practice German a lot, both with me and some of her friends. She scored 100% (yes 100%) in her A/S level. She missed out on an A* at A-level because her oral part was downgraded to a B because ‘she was so good the actual oral must have been rehearsed’. Some busybody not knowing a thing about her assumed she was cheating – and we had no appeal against the oral mark. I am still angry, not about the mark but the unchallengeable assumption of cheating. What was worse the school warned her beforehand not to be too good. This had been experienced before by other excellent pupils. It is all another instance of introducing extra man-made unfairness. She required an A* and 2 ‘A’s for her chosen University and fortunately she just achieved it so there was no repercussion, except a total loss of confidence of a system that tried to interfere with an individual without full information.
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Billy, I understand your angst towards Tory governments, past and present, I really do. I don’t have nearly the amount of passion, not even close, for or against a political party or government.
What I do genuinely think, is that this current government has done a relatively good job in 2020. That doesn’t mean they haven’t made mistakes, some pretty big ones, but mistakes that have only been realised with hindsight. They have also made some excellent decisions to help the people (all of us) of Britain.
I just think that if there was ever a time not to politicise every single decision made, and shout out retrospectively ‘I told you so’ every time something happens to divide opinion, it is now.
I realise that might sound naive, but there you go.
Tom Kirkman for Prime Minister, I say.
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Hound.
The other thing I'd have put money on would have been you ignoring the core issue and trying to have a personal dig. Living proof that maturity doesn't always come with age.
Not a dig at you at all BST, just a thought that came into my head.
Don’t take it a a personal dig.
I would have said the same whoever had posted about putting money on it.
Truthfully, do you know anyone who has done.
As it happens, I agree with Bolton’s assumption that there isn’t an underlying government decision to F**k up the northern working class.
I see that Belton has also mentioned hindsight.
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Hound, unfortunately I don't know how to add an article, but in the Guardian there is an article about a parent, Huy Dong, who had long warned 39% of grades A* and D would be lower than teacher assessments using the government's algorithm, and disadvantaged students would be worst affected. He warned the education select committee too. That wasn't hindsight, perhaps someone can paste the article.
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Here it is, Hounslow. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/14/punishment-by-statistics-the-father-who-foresaw-a-level-algorithm-flaws
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Here it is, Hounslow. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/14/punishment-by-statistics-the-father-who-foresaw-a-level-algorithm-flaws
That’s an interesting read.
Well done to Cambridge University for accepting him regardless of his results.
A happy end to an impossible situation.
More of this level headed, sensible approach by universities and employers please.
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Hound, unfortunately I don't know how to add an article, but in the Guardian there is an article about a parent, Huy Dong, who had long warned 39% of grades A* and D would be lower than teacher assessments using the government's algorithm, and disadvantaged students would be worst affected. He warned the education select committee too. That wasn't hindsight, perhaps someone can paste the article.
Cheers Hounslow.
As a non Guardian reader I would never have seen that.
However, I don’t have a political viewpoint on it anyway but up to you telling me that I haven’t seen or heard a thing about it.
I’m surprised that none of our posters mentioned it before though if it was in the Guardian.
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Here it is, Hounslow. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/14/punishment-by-statistics-the-father-who-foresaw-a-level-algorithm-flaws
'Collective Punishment by Statistics' is exactly right
Or as I put it earlier - the educational system trying to interfere with an individual without knowing any details.
If you are going to devise a national system of grade 'correction' it only has a chance of working fairly if you know the full details and backstory of every individual affected, and to such an extent that they can be compared fairly. An impossible task in this case.
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This government came into power on the back of a promise to 'level up'.
Instead, the first opportunity it has to enact that promise it has done the exact opposite.
The system they used deliberately lowered the grades of the most disadvantaged pupils - whilst raised those of the most advantaged.
And their answer to this once it has been pointed out to them will tell you all you need to know about this govenment. And its supporters.
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Thanks MachoMadness for posting it.
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Belton.
I fully respect your right to think that we have done OK in 2020. I just fail to see what you base that opinion on.
I also fully understand and agree with your wish to see us pull together and not criticise for the sake of criticising. That was why I was saying loudly at the start of March that is was absolutely not the time to be playing politics. I feel naively stupid over that now, as it is undeniably clear that the Govt was in fact playing politics with us right from the start, but there you go.
My take is that our handling of the big things this year has been little short of catastrophic. But I didn't go in with the attitude "this is a Tory Govt therefore they will f**k up", despite the fact that several people on here seem to be sure that I did (I do wonder about their level.of hypocrisy when they assume it against all the facts in others, but there you go...)
If you're really interested, you can go back on the threads here and see how my opinion changed from cautiously hoping that our Govt was getting it right, to bewilderment that we also e were choosing to delay lockdown, to outright anger that we ended up with the worst death rate and worst economic hit in Europe. It didn't have to be like that and I very much hoped it wasn't going to be. And I very much wish it wasn't.
But it is. And I take my cue from Churchill who, on the theme of those who ignored the mistakes our Govt made in the 1930s over Appeasement said that the purpose of recrimination now was to stop errors in the future.
You obviously disagree with my take and I respect your right to have that opinion. Although without an argument as to why you think the way you do, forgive me if I don't respect the opinion itself.
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Belton.
I fully respect your right to think that we have done OK in 2020. I just fail to see what you base that opinion on.
I also fully understand and agree with your wish to see us pull together and not criticise for the sake of criticising. That was why I was saying loudly at the start of March that is was absolutely not the time to be playing politics. I feel naively stupid over that now, as it is undeniably clear that the Govt was in fact playing politics with us right from the start, but there you go.
My take is that our handling of the big things this year has been little short of catastrophic. But I didn't go in with the attitude "this is a Tory Govt therefore they will f**k up", despite the fact that several people on here seem to be sure that I did (I do wonder about their level.of hypocrisy when they assume it against all the facts in others, but there you go...)
If you're really interested, you can go back on the threads here and see how my opinion changed from cautiously hoping that our Govt was getting it right, to bewilderment that we also e were choosing to delay lockdown, to outright anger that we ended up with the worst death rate and worst economic hit in Europe. It didn't have to be like that and I very much hoped it wasn't going to be. And I very much wish it wasn't.
But it is. And I take my cue from Churchill who, on the theme of those who ignored the mistakes our Govt made in the 1930s over Appeasement said that the purpose of recrimination now was to stop errors in the future.
You obviously disagree with my take and I respect your right to have that opinion. Although without an argument as to why you think the way you do, forgive me if I don't respect the opinion itself.
Billy I think it’s impossible for someone with such an anti Tory slant to consider anything that the government does without an anti tory slant, however objective you may want to think you are being. You may have wanted the government to get things right but you would never have expected them to do so. Do I really have to find a link to a report or an opinion to qualify my own opinion? You are ( and I mean this as a compliment) a fantastic statistician. You use them as definitive proof of your thoughts. I don’t. Facts and statistics ate manipulated and twisted to suit the individual. If I showed you a right wing stat to proof my point, you’d show me a left wing stat to counter that point. If not backing up my thoughts with black and white numbers and graphs and percentages means you don’t respect my opinions, then that’s a shame, because I like healthy debate and I respect your arguments and position with or without statistics.
You are a good writer. I like reading and commenting on what you write, as I do some others on here. But facts and statistics should not be the be all and end all of opinion.
Regarding your backlog, I have rarely engaged in conversation in off topic and don’t wish to go over anyone’s old ground.
But here’s to more healthy debate, respected or otherwise.
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Easy to put right, let the Universities set an entrance exam for all this years students in the subjects they needed grades in to do a particular course, or is that too much work for them.
I bet they would not want to do it though.
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Selby, they have exam boards whose exact job is to do that.
There is a reason why it has not been possible to do it this year...
And whatever the solution is it needs to be pretty quick. Universities will be starting back in about 3 weeks so students need to know where they are going so they can get accomodation & loans etc sorted.
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Belton.
See, thoughtful though I'm sure you intended that post to be, it does fall into the great big chasm at the heart of internet discussions. And to be fair, it's a chasm I fell into the other day when replying to you.
What we do on the internet is to set up an idea of what we think the other person is, and we filter all interactions through that idea. So I wrongly assumed the other day that you were accusing Dawn Butler of lying. I did that because I assumed I knew your motives. I was wrong.
You've done the same thing here. You assume that I would always be looking to criticise any Tory policies. That's incorrect. I was full of praise for Sunak's furlough scheme. Back in March, I also had some vigorous disagreements with people on here who are probably to the left of me, who were criticising Govt policy on dealing with COVID when I thought they should have been cutting them some slack.
What I've done since then is to change my opinions when the facts demonstrated that they were right and I was wrong. So I take a bit of offence at your implication that I argue from an ideological standpoint first and always. But I understand why you say it.
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Billy.
You can’t really expect to write comments like this:
‘Class warfare, right under your noses. By the Govt that conned northern working class people that it is on their side.‘
and expect me or anyone else to believe you that you don’t argue from an ideological standpoint. At least mostly.
There’s nothing wrong with that, by the way. Sometimes I wish I did more of the same. I read articles, watch the news, listen to debates and form an opinion based on what I’ve digested. However, on some topics, I already have an informed bias.
For example, the Barnsley thread on the Rovers forum. I hate Barnsley FC (relatively speaking, from a football rival point of view). My hatred for them was never going to change just because Tyke and a few softies on here told me I was wrong and unkind and harsh. I know that is far more trivial than A level results, and was said partly tongue in cheek through sheer jealousy, but the point is the same.
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Easy to put right, let the Universities set an entrance exam for all this years students in the subjects they needed grades in to do a particular course, or is that too much work for them.
I bet they would not want to do it though.
This should always be the case if universities are to get the right people onto the right courses, although I was asked the question ' if the students had attended all sessions and completed the work given, would they have completed successfully' to allow my line manager to complete the assessment procedure.
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Billy.
You can’t really expect to write comments like this:
‘Class warfare, right under your noses. By the Govt that conned northern working class people that it is on their side.‘
and expect me or anyone else to believe you that you don’t argue from an ideological standpoint. At least mostly.
There’s nothing wrong with that, by the way. Sometimes I wish I did more of the same. I read articles, watch the news, listen to debates and form an opinion based on what I’ve digested. However, on some topics, I already have an informed bias.
For example, the Barnsley thread on the Rovers forum. I hate Barnsley FC (relatively speaking, from a football rival point of view). My hatred for them was never going to change just because Tyke and a few softies on here told me I was wrong and unkind and harsh. I know that is far more trivial than A level results, and was said partly tongue in cheek through sheer jealousy, but the point is the same.
Belton.
Yes. I do believe that the Tory party exists primarily to further the aims of a particular section of society. And I very strongly believe that is wrong and should be pushed back against.
I form that opinion from years and years of experience of seeing what they do when in power. Like the examples I set out earlier today, each of which was an egregious and barefaced gift to the wealthier sections of our society, paid for by the poorer.
That doesn't mean that I kick out against every single thing they do. I weigh up the arguments and the likely outcomes.
I'm a card carrying Labour party member, but I very much supported May's response to the Salisbury incident and thought Labour's stance was appalling.
But when I see a policy which massively benefits the rich, like the A-level issue, then yes I will call it out as class warfare because that's what it is - either that or utter incompetence. Find me a policy ever from a Tory Govt that benefits the working class at the expense of established power and money and I'll take your criticisms more seriously. In the absence of that, you seems to complain because I'm vocal in my opposition to the Tories, but you don't have any convincing arguments that my opinion is wrong or unfairly based.
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But Billy, I don’t want to convince you that you are wrong. I’m not complaining about you, just making an observation. As you do about me. Sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.
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To assist people in making a judgement as to whether or not this Grade fiasco is incompetence or not I suggest you read this link.
The government have said they are refusing to change the grades to teacher assessed because they are biased and this algorithm is more reliable. Yet when they tested this algorithm on last years results - at best it got 30% wrong, with English and Maths it got 50% wrong and at its worst it got 80% wrong.
https://twitter.com/rhysblakely/status/1294309305034973184
Now try and convince me why the only reason they are not going to review it is because it benefitted public school pupils.
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There is no doubt that there is and always has been a class distinction in education in this country, but whether this particular way of designing a system to overcome the problem of actually taking exams this year was purposely designed to disadvantage certain scholars is open for debate, and is it the government or the educational hierarchy that is responsible for it.
As for time being put forward by Wilts to not have an entrance exam set by universities, I don't accept it, if the will is there and the effort put in most things happen, reduce holidays in the education system in the next year to make up time lost, open school and university facilities extended hours every day to make time up. Get rid of those in the system that don't want to do their job.
We have got to the stage where we can organise marches for thousands of people, illegal raves ,and getting to the beaches, but not send kids to school.
-
I have exclusively uncovered the algorithm used to decide A-level results.
Unfortunately I don't understand the coding involved.
Can anyone help?
{M@k3_5UR3_tH3_p05h_k1d5_get-1st_ch01ce_of-un15}
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But Billy, I don’t want to convince you that you are wrong. I’m not complaining about you, just making an observation. As you do about me. Sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.
And your observation is wrong. It's built on an image of someone who you think exists but doesn't.
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Selby, I don't care if you accept it or not. Its just true.
A lot of what you suggested has already been put forward by education authorities, schools, unions and the Labour Party. I am a governor - I have a date in my diary for us to agree a summer catch-up plan - it passed three weeks ago.
It is the Government that rejected it. Johnson promised a 'huge' summer catch-up plan. Where is it? They promised us 20 laptops. We got 1.
I agree, get rid of those in charge who don't want to do their job. Mr G Williamson, Mr B Johnson and Mr D Cummings.
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But Billy, I don’t want to convince you that you are wrong. I’m not complaining about you, just making an observation. As you do about me. Sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.
And your observation is wrong. It's built on an image of someone who you think exists But Billy, I don’t want to convince you that you are wrong. I’m not complaining about you, just making an observation. As you do about me. Sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.
And your observation is wrong. It's built on an imagee of someone who you think exists but doesn't.
But you have created that image. I’ve just noticed it.
-
No Belton. I haven't. You've just read and absorbed selectively.
I've pointed you to other things I've said. You choose to ignore them. So, frankly, I'm not massively interested in your protestations.
-
Not so Billy, but hey ho, we live another day.
We’re all Rovers, aren’t we? Love ya x
But just to finish with, if you were to get an honest answer from anyone one who frequents this forum as to whether THE VAST MAJORITY of your posts are anti Tory, then I think most would think the same as me.
-
There is no doubt that there is and always has been a class distinction in education in this country, but whether this particular way of designing a system to overcome the problem of actually taking exams this year was purposely designed to disadvantage certain scholars is open for debate, and is it the government or the educational hierarchy that is responsible for it.
As for time being put forward by Wilts to not have an entrance exam set by universities, I don't accept it, if the will is there and the effort put in most things happen, reduce holidays in the education system in the next year to make up time lost, open school and university facilities extended hours every day to make time up. Get rid of those in the system that don't want to do their job.
We have got to the stage where we can organise marches for thousands of people, illegal raves ,and getting to the beaches, but not send kids to school.
Selby, i have two boys aged 8yrs and 11yrs, the eldest is due to attend Campsmount Academy in September. i am 60yrs old this this year and i am frightened for my health, do you think i'm worrying for nothing? Please tell me. have you got kids going back to school and maybe bringing covid home?
-
There is no doubt that there is and always has been a class distinction in education in this country, but whether this particular way of designing a system to overcome the problem of actually taking exams this year was purposely designed to disadvantage certain scholars is open for debate, and is it the government or the educational hierarchy that is responsible for it.
As for time being put forward by Wilts to not have an entrance exam set by universities, I don't accept it, if the will is there and the effort put in most things happen, reduce holidays in the education system in the next year to make up time lost, open school and university facilities extended hours every day to make time up. Get rid of those in the system that don't want to do their job.
We have got to the stage where we can organise marches for thousands of people, illegal raves ,and getting to the beaches, but not send kids to school.
Selby, i have two boys aged 8yrs and 11yrs, the eldest is due to attend Campsmount Academy in September. i am 60yrs old this this year and i am frightened for my health, do you think i'm worrying for nothing? Please tell me. have you got kids going back to school and maybe bringing covid home?
I guess that's a no then, easy to shout your mouth off when the actions you call for don't affect you.
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Not so Billy, but hey ho, we live another day.
We’re all Rovers, aren’t we? Love ya x
But just to finish with, if you were to get an honest answer from anyone one who frequents this forum as to whether THE VAST MAJORITY of your posts are anti Tory, then I think most would think the same as me.
Yes Belton. The vast majority of my political posts ARE anti-Tory. Because I disagree with their philosophical outlook.
The point is, I ALWAYS give reasons why I disagree with a specific policy. Always. Just as I do on the occasions that I agree with their policies. I do not EVER say, "That's a Tory policy therefore I will assume it is bad without looking at it."
That's the bit that seems to go over some folks' heads. I suggest that says more about them than me.
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Thanks for the clarification, Billy.
I’m off to bed now.
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Hello, is Selby here? Answer me please.
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I think he’s gone to bed too.
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I have exclusively uncovered the algorithm used to decide A-level results.
Unfortunately I don't understand the coding involved.
Can anyone help?
{M@k3_5UR3_tH3_p05h_k1d5_get-1st_ch01ce_of-un15}
Talking heads (jus nee the chorus)
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
Same as it ever was
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The government have announced that schools will not have to pay for appeals, and a task force set up to help this process. Another step in the right direction.
Source: Charlie and Naga, BBC news.
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Nail on the head
https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1294205052979163136?s=21
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Darren, the known chances of covid being passed from school children is far smaller than you having an accident on in Norton.
It's not for me to think for you, but you who has to decide if you are going to live your life as normal as possible, and give your children the best chance of a good education, or live the rest of your life in fear.
My two girls are way past school age, but are both termed Key workers and have attended their place of work right through this pandemic meeting the public at large and fellow workers from Leeds, Lincoln,Sheffield,and Grimsby, and in my eldest girls case Leicester and Kirklees as part of the government's response to the surge of infections there.
My advice is to take all precautions you can, and get on with life.
-
Nail on the head
https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1294205052979163136?s=21
:that:
-
Darren, the known chances of covid being passed from school children is far smaller than you having an accident on in Norton.
Key word.
-
Janso, which known numbers do you take notice of or discard, are they the numbers that suit your political leanings, the ones you take notice of thar is.
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Janso, which known numbers do you take notice of or discard, are they the numbers that suit your political leanings, the ones you take notice of thar is.
You should n’t judge people by your own standards
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When people talk about the ability to appeal, you need to be clear about what you are appealing against, and the criteria which apply;
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1294528291244855297
So it seems you can appeal that the cohort from earlier years was unrepresentative.
I don't think this is what people imagine an appeal should be!
Still, OK for those studying Classics in a small group at a private school.
Not all bad then!
-
That’s nonsense, Albie. The exam appeals system is an integral part of qualifications for many students in all subjects. Even more so this year.
-
Belton.
Why do you say that what Albie wrote is nonsense?
Albie wasn't plucking an opinion out if thin air. He was providing evidence from a lawyer's assessment of the Government's own published rules.
Did you read that lawyer's tweet before responding to Albie? If so, which bit of it do you think is nonsense?
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The bit where he said the appeals system will only benefit small groups studying Classics in a private school.
Utter nonsense.
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Belton,
Sorry if I have not been clear.
I did NOT say the appeals system benefits that group.
The tweet from the QC makes it clear that the appeals system is very limited in scope.
The default will be to uphold the present allocations.
The current awards benefit those groups who come from a background of higher achievement, due to location, subjects studied and background...that is not contested as far as I am aware.
The point I was trying to make is that the appeals system will not correct that imbalance, and that those benefiting from the current awards will not be reduced in that benefit.
If you know different, then please post the reason with a link.
I hope we are sorted now.
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Belton,
Sorry if I have not been clear.
I did NOT say the appeals system benefits that group.
The tweet from the QC makes it clear that the appeals system is very limited in scope.
The default will be to uphold the present allocations.
The current awards benefit those groups who come from a background of higher achievement, due to location, subjects studied and background...that is not contested as far as I am aware.
The point I was trying to make is that the appeals system will not correct that imbalance, and that those benefiting from the current awards will not be reduced in that benefit.
If you know different, then please post the reason with a link.
I hope we are sorted now.
If you didn’t suggest it then what does this mean?:
‘Still, OK for those studying Classics in a small group at a private school.
Not all bad then!‘
Predominantly, what the appeal system does is allow a student’s work to be reassessed/marked. USUALLY, this is if a student is close to getting a higher band and possibly a higher grade. Schools usually can’t appeal willy nilly because of the cost, so this news that the cost is wavered is good. The majority of appeals are upheld, which means a higher mark which could result in a higher grade.
Additionally, I am hopeful that the government will also consider the unique way in which results have been calculated this year, and maybe the appeal process will also be unique.
My link to this is that I am an examiner for WJEC.
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Belton.
It would be much easier if you read the link that Albie provided rather than base your opinions on what you hope the Govt will do.
That gives chapter and verse from the Govt's own guidance.
Initial grades this year were obtained from teachers' assessments, so called Centre Assessment Grades". The Govt's guidance says "attempts to amend Centre Assessment Grades or rank order information by revisiting or revising the professional judgments which underpin them... is not permitted."
It says the reproducing of grades based on the Govt algorithm CAN be challenged, but only if exceptional circumstances can be proved.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1294534229880184832
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Belton,
Point 1 answered in the previous reply.
I agree that some who appeal will be regraded higher, but not all will appeal.
I hope you are right that the unique circumstances will be accommodated, and changes to the appeal process introduced.
Meanwhile, the GCSE juggernaut approaches;
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/15/controversial-exams-algorithm-to-set-97-of-gcse-results
It is clear to me that this is going to end in Court.
There will be a legal determination overriding a political one.
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Belton.
It would be much easier if you read the link that Albie provided rather than base your opinions on what you hope the Govt will do.
That gives chapter and verse from the Govt's own guidance.
Initial grades this year were obtained from teachers' assessments, so called Centre Assessment Grades". The Govt's guidance says "attempts to amend Centre Assessment Grades or rank order information by revisiting or revising the professional judgments which underpin them... is not permitted."
It says the reproducing of grades based on the Govt algorithm CAN be challenged, but only if exceptional circumstances can be proved.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1294534229880184832
Exceptional circumstances, hmm, if only we had some of those.
And I did read it.
Billy, this is becoming tedious. By this, I mean you.
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Belton.
Why am I becoming tedious? I'm pointing you to the Govt's own guidance.
Once again, that says that the initial assessments cannot be challenged. Only the reprofiling. So your comments (albeit from a position of considerable knowledge in normal times) about appealing on marking are meaningless this year.
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For Christ’s sake Billy, the link you are assuming I haven’t read, and is the whole reason for your latest attempt to ‘trump’ me is based on the appeal system that you say is meaningless.
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Belton.
Revealing post.
I'm absolutely not trying to "trump" you. I'm simply bemused at how people just don't engage with facts in front of them, but are happy to throw out and hominems.
I didn't say the appeals process was meaningless by the way. I said your comments on have marking re-assessed in usual years were meaningless. Because (deep breath: once again) the Govt's own guidance says they will not be allowing challenges based on the marking. Only on the reprofiling and THEN only in exceptional circumstances (which doesn't mean COVID). They give a clear example of what they mean by "exceptional circumstances" the example being when the appellant can demonstrate that previous years' performance at their assessment centre were exceptional. Why it should be beholden on the appellant to prove that, when the information is held centrally is anyone's guess, but that's secondary to the argument you seem to want to have with me.
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I must admit I haven't followed it too closely but this is a good explainer.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/results-day-exams-bias
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Belton.
Revealing post.
I'm absolutely not trying to "trump" you. I'm simply bemused at how people just don't engage with facts in front of them, but are happy to throw out and hominems.
I didn't say the appeals process was meaningless by the way. I said your comments on have marking re-assessed in usual years were meaningless. Because (deep breath: once again) the Govt's own guidance says they will not be allowing challenges based on the marking. Only on the reprofiling and THEN only in exceptional circumstances (which doesn't mean COVID). They give a clear example of what they mean by "exceptional circumstances" the example being when the appellant can demonstrate that previous years' performance at their assessment centre were exceptional. Why it should be beholden on the appellant to prove that, when the information is held centrally is anyone's guess, but that's secondary to the argument you seem to want to have with me.
And now the two bob psychology.
I want to say I’d have put money on you doing that, eventually. But that’s your line.
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Reasonable summary from the BBC showing the weighting of outcomes;
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-53759832
Hardest hit are high achievers in schools of lower than average attainment.
The AI will grade them back to the historic mean.
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Lets
Get Exams done
Mark mark mark
Fiddle fiddle fiddle
Change change change
Mess mess mess
(dont worry the Electorate , these kids and their parents will have forgotten by the next Election and we'll commit to more and even better Levelling up and Build build build on that"
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... and for once this was not the Govt acting after the fact and chasing events is it
Covid peed on their chips but from the moment the Schools announced there would be no Examinations someone in Govt (or civil service(s) or advisors) should surely had prepared a viable "roadmap" and come up with something better than thay have / did
Poor old Williamson - as Balckadder said once - lets face it someones for the "chop". Lets face it Williamson "its you"
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Bit of a shambles this, isn't it?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53795831
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Minister / Under Minister Nick Gibb was assuring "the News" the other day that there would be just a few people affected .... mmmm Maths not seeming to be his forte
Days earlier he insisted (with vigour) that over 330000 people had been tested for the Virus as part of the ramped up testing procedure. It was fact checked and found to be less than a 6th of that at a mere 52000
When challenged he said he could not remember saying it although it IS all over S Media
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Reasonable summary from the BBC showing the weighting of outcomes;
https://www.bbc.com/news/education-53759832
Hardest hit are high achievers in schools of lower than average attainment.
The AI will grade them back to the historic mean.
"We would warn them against simply digging in their heels, and insisting all is well.“
Good advice. Hopefully, the government will realise this hasn’t worked and act accordingly.
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Appears that Ofqual's algorithm caused today's A-level chaos. Ofqual chair Roger Taylor, also chairs the Centre for Data Ethics & Innovation (CDEI).
Dominic Cummings' fave AI consultants - Faculty, have some juicy contracts with CDEI. And Faculty's COO Richard Sargeant is on CDEI board.
https://twitter.com/MilesKing10/status/1293886007771893762
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As usual they all s**t in the same pot (as my Mother used to say - and that was as contraversial as she ever got )
-
Appears that Ofqual's algorithm caused today's A-level chaos. Ofqual chair Roger Taylor, also chairs the Centre for Data Ethics & Innovation (CDEI).
Dominic Cummings' fave AI consultants - Faculty, have some juicy contracts with CDEI. And Faculty's COO Richard Sargeant is on CDEI board.
https://twitter.com/MilesKing10/status/1293886007771893762
LOL
It’s like the Kevin Bacon link game but with Dominic Cummings. Ha ha.
-
Appears that Ofqual's algorithm caused today's A-level chaos. Ofqual chair Roger Taylor, also chairs the Centre for Data Ethics & Innovation (CDEI).
Dominic Cummings' fave AI consultants - Faculty, have some juicy contracts with CDEI. And Faculty's COO Richard Sargeant is on CDEI board.
https://twitter.com/MilesKing10/status/1293886007771893762
LOL
It’s like the Kevin Bacon link game but with Dominic Cummings. Ha ha.
I don't know what the Kevin Bacon link game is - but if it relates to favouratism, cronisism and giving government contracts to your mates - well yes!
-
Appears that Ofqual's algorithm caused today's A-level chaos. Ofqual chair Roger Taylor, also chairs the Centre for Data Ethics & Innovation (CDEI).
Dominic Cummings' fave AI consultants - Faculty, have some juicy contracts with CDEI. And Faculty's COO Richard Sargeant is on CDEI board.
https://twitter.com/MilesKing10/status/1293886007771893762
LOL
It’s like the Kevin Bacon link game but with Dominic Cummings. Ha ha.
I don't know what the Kevin Bacon link game is - but if it relates to favouratism, cronisism and giving government contracts to your mates - well yes!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Degrees_of_Kevin_Bacon
It kind of means that if you are desperate enough, you will find a link about anything to anyone.
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Gotta love how you just trivialise anything remotely not fitting with the argument you're making, belton. Truly awestruck.
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Gotta love how you just trivialise anything remotely not fitting with the argument you're making, belton. Truly awestruck.
Cheers, Janso.
I’m learning from the best.
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This Marina Hyde, warning do read whilst drinking hot tea ...............
''Welcome to Gavin Williamson's disasterclass – where incompetence is core curriculum''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/14/welcome-to-gavin-williamsons-disasterclass-where-incompetence-is-core-curriculum
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Just a by-the-way because I've been accused of being shrill in daring to consider calling the Tories class warriors.
I make my judgements on evidence. Here is the single most egregious example of class warfare that I e ever seen from a Government.
In 2010, after they won the Election, the Tory led Govt ended Govt funding of Child Trust Funds. These had been set up by Gordon Brown to encourage poorer people to save for their kids. To get them started, the Govt paid in £500 to a fund for every child in the country. Parents and relatives could then pay in up to £1200 per year per child and any interest would be tax free.
Those Govt payments were scrapped in 2010 because in the Austerity age it would have been "deceiving people to think they could have a handout from borrowed money."
So everybody lost £500 per child. Because we were all in it together,right?
Except.
Straight afterwards, the Govt quietly raised the amount parents could pay I to the funds without paying tax on the interest.
It had been £1200 per year.
It is now £9000 per year.
I reckon, with reasonable growth, anyone who can save £9000 per child per year (and hey! who can't?!?) will on average save more £500 per year in tax per child.
A quite breathtaking example of taxing from the poor and giving to the rich.
-
According to a guest on the Kevin O'Sullivan show on talk radio this morning, there has been five times more deaths from the recurring summer influenza in the last four weeks than Covid 19 deaths.
-
Just a by-the-way because I've been accused of being shrill in daring to consider calling the Tories class warriors.
I make my judgements on evidence. Here is the single most egregious example of class warfare that I e ever seen from a Government.
In 2010, after they won the Election, the Tory led Govt ended Govt funding of Child Trust Funds. These had been set up by Gordon Brown to encourage poorer people to save for their kids. To get them started, the Govt paid in £500 to a fund for every child in the country. Parents and relatives could then pay in up to £1200 per year per child and any interest would be tax free.
Those Govt payments were scrapped in 2010 because in the Austerity age it would have been "deceiving people to think they could have a handout from borrowed money."
So everybody lost £500 per child. Because we were all in it together,right?
Except.
Straight afterwards, the Govt quietly raised the amount parents could pay I to the funds without paying tax on the interest.
It had been £1200 per year.
It is now £9000 per year.
I reckon, with reasonable growth, anyone who can save £9000 per child per year (and hey! who can't?!?) will on average save more £500 per year in tax per child.
A quite breathtaking example of taxing from the poor and giving to the rich.
Billy, you’re still refusing to accept the blindingly obvious.
This IS a clear example of the Tory government failing the poor. I don’t doubt it, I don’t agree with what they did here.
But bringing this old bit of news to everyone’s attention whilst telling us you don’t post with an anti Tory slant Is a bit silly.
You make judgments about any current political topic from the foundation that you wholeheartedly stand against anything Tory, and all things labour.
Again, there’s nothing wrong with that, but you shouldn’t deny it.
Pointing us in the direction of where you might occasionally post something that isn’t anti Tory doesn’t quite cut it.
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I find myself growing increasingly frustrated with Starmer on this issue. He's written an article in the Mail today (which I'm not linking to because f**k them), which seems to have annoyed everyone a across the political spectrum. Now he's pushing for kids to be back in school next month "no ifs, no buts". Near silence from his education secretary, too. It comes across as a complete lack of leadership on the issue, and that he's more interested in mildly scolding the government whatever they do. Whoever's advising him needs a kick up the arse. Some clarification is needed urgently.
I say this as someone who voted for him and has supported him whole heartedly til now, even as he seems to be fudging every one of his election manifesto promises.
-
I find myself growing increasingly frustrated with Starmer on this issue. He's written an article in the Mail today (which I'm not linking to because f**k them), which seems to have annoyed everyone a across the political spectrum. Now he's pushing for kids to be back in school next month "no ifs, no buts". Near silence from his education secretary, too. It comes across as a complete lack of leadership on the issue, and that he's more interested in mildly scolding the government whatever they do. Whoever's advising him needs a kick up the arse. Some clarification is needed urgently.
I say this as someone who voted for him and has supported him whole heartedly til now, even as he seems to be fudging every one of his election manifesto promises.
The problem Starmer has got is being f**ked over by the far left of his party. I can’t fathom them out, they’d sooner dish dirt on Starmer and make Labour unelectable than pull together against a far right party
-
I find myself growing increasingly frustrated with Starmer on this issue. He's written an article in the Mail today (which I'm not linking to because f**k them), which seems to have annoyed everyone a across the political spectrum. Now he's pushing for kids to be back in school next month "no ifs, no buts". Near silence from his education secretary, too. It comes across as a complete lack of leadership on the issue, and that he's more interested in mildly scolding the government whatever they do. Whoever's advising him needs a kick up the arse. Some clarification is needed urgently.
I say this as someone who voted for him and has supported him whole heartedly til now, even as he seems to be fudging every one of his election manifesto promises.
Mmmm yes... I’m beginning to share this view a little bit. Up to now I’ve been fully supportive of his apparent policy of allowing the Tories to hang themselves. After all they’re doing a blinding job of it. But I’d really like to see him turn the screw on the Government a bit more often now and this is a perfect opportunity to do so. The few times he’s gone for the jugular at PMQ’s he’s had Boris on the rack. I’d like to see that more often.
-
Macho
For me, your points about Starmer shows just what an impossible task any government would have during this crisis.
Even the pretend government can’t get it right for the pretend people.
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Macho
For me, your points about Starmer shows just what an impossible task any government would have during this crisis.
Even the pretend government can’t get it right for the pretend people.
I don't agree - if that were the case, every country would have the same shocking outcomes we've had.
He really just needs to set out a credible alternative plan that people can get behind. God knows there have been plenty floated by SAGE that he could follow. At present that seems to be lacking. This perception of him as Captain Hindsight could well stick as he just doesn't seem to be very proactive in clearly setting out a plan of his own. That's a death sentence for him politically, I reckon.
-
But if Starmer can’t do it with monopoly money and Lego, then he is either incompetent beyond belief or the real job is impossible to get right for everybody.
-
I don't think he's incompetent. But I worry that whoever's advising him might be. Even Alastair Campbell is now voicing his frustration, so it's not just a few lefties trying to sabotage him.
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But if Starmer can’t do it with monopoly money and Lego, then he is either incompetent beyond belief or the real job is impossible to get right for everybody.
Thing is... Starmer can't do it anyway because he isn't the Prime Minister.
-
Belton.
I'll say it again.
When I agree with Tory policies, like Salisbury, like furlough, I'll say that I do.
The fact is that I disagree with a large number of their policies, because I disagree with the direction they want to push society in. I've never tried to hide that.
That example I gave is only one, and yes it is ten years old, but there are multiple ones since then cut from the same philosophical cloth, just not as egregious as that one.
I don't blame them for that. That is what they stand for. What bewilders me is when folk get upset when these policies are pointed out. As though it is somehow unfair to point out policies that show the Tories to be the sort of party that some people don't want them to be.
-
Alright Billy, thanks. I’ll try not to bewilder you anymore.
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Macho
For me, your points about Starmer shows just what an impossible task any government would have during this crisis.
Even the pretend government can’t get it right for the pretend people.
Define 'right'?
In my view this government has got it 'right'. For them. They have taken all the major decisions to benefit their supporters and donors rather than the general public. This A Level fiasco being only the latest example.
GCSE results next week will be just the same. As will school reopening in September. Harrow & Eton wont be forcing 30 kids into a classroom all day will they. Or scrapping their plans to go to Oxbridge for a clearing place in Plymouth. But you can be sure that if pupils at Harrow & Eton start being disadvantaged the government policies will be changing pretty quickly.
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Here you go Wilts, I know you like your links:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/dictionary.cambridge.org/amp/english/right
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But if Starmer can’t do it with monopoly money and Lego, then he is either incompetent beyond belief or the real job is impossible to get right for everybody.
Thing is... Starmer can't do it anyway because he isn't the Prime Minister.
Oh yeah, shit.
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Utter, utter shambles.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53799860
Sixth Form Colleges which often take some of the poorest kids have been hit particularly hard.
"The Sixth Form Colleges Association (SFCA) said it looked at 65,000 exam entries in 41 subjects from sixth form colleges and found that grades were 20% lower than historic performances for similar students in those colleges."
So much for the algorithmic Government that Cummings is maniacally unrolling. First major challenge and it has utterly failed.
And those who are saying "No problem - it'll get sorted out on appeal" are totally missing the point.
Universities are already filling up their courses with students who are happy with their grades, including the I dependent school kids who we know have massively benefited from this algorithm, with A & A* grades up 11%.
The elite Universities will have their courses stuffed full of these independent school kids. And this Universities have been barred from extending their course numbers this year, because that would unfairly grab market share from Universities further down the chain.
So when the state school and 6th Form College disaster is sorted out, there won't be places for many of these kids at the elite Universities.
-
Utter, utter shambles.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53799860
Sixth Form Colleges which often take some of the poorest kids have been hit particularly hard.
"The Sixth Form Colleges Association (SFCA) said it looked at 65,000 exam entries in 41 subjects from sixth form colleges and found that grades were 20% lower than historic performances for similar students in those colleges."
So much for the algorithmic Government that Cummings is maniacally unrolling. First major challenge and it has utterly failed.
And those who are saying "No problem - it'll get sorted out on appeal" are totally missing the point.
Universities are already filling up their courses with students who are happy with their grades, including the I dependent school kids who we know have massively benefited from this algorithm, with A & A* grades up 11%.
The elite Universities will have their courses stuffed full of these independent school kids. And this Universities have been barred from extending their course numbers this year, because that would unfairly grab market share from Universities further down the chain.
So when the state school and 6th Form College disaster is sorted out, there won't be places for many of these kids at the elite Universities.
Not necessarily.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/08/14/oxford-college-says-will-honour-offers-regardless-grades/amp/
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Yes. One Oxford college.
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And well done to Matthew Gursky, from Doncaster who is the first in his immediate family to go to university. He will be studying history and politics at Trinity College, Cambridge after he achieved 3 A* whilst studying at Hall Cross Comprehensive - you know, that independent school for rich people with 3 students in each class.
https://www.cam.ac.uk/news/a-level-results-day-2020-goingtocambridge
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Congratulations to him but have his grades been accepted without adjustment? Compare the girl who always got A or A* all along and then saw her three A* marks adjusted to BBC.
This method used by the government not only throws suspicion on the downgraded marks but also the ones that have achieved very good results.
Surely you can see this belton?
.
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Idler, the point I’m making is not every northern student in a large state comprehensive will suffer, despite many claims to the contrary.
If someone puts up a positive link, it can be met with a negative, and vice versa, which shows just that. And just to be clear, I DO think the government have got this wrong, BUT:
1. Not to the point where every working class, northern, large state School student will suffer.
2. Hopefully, this will be rectified quickly.
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It's an impossible task and they've got a lot right, but also a number wrong, exactly what you'd expect. It's an impossible situation. I think the weighting for independent schools is questionable, but actually when you compare the rest it overly doesn't look too outrageous.
The big problem is how do you treat the outliers in schools. My school was a failing school with really low grades. I'd have been screwed in this situation. What they need to do is apply a sensible appeals process and quickly for those examples. On a whole the numbers look fine, but not analysing each case is wrong in my view.
No offence BFYP but how many times does this government get a pass when they f*ck up because "it's an impossible task" or " it's a tough decision" - blame needs to be apportioned and it needs to start sticking. This government is full of incapable morons, at every level.
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It's an impossible task and they've got a lot right, but also a number wrong, exactly what you'd expect. It's an impossible situation. I think the weighting for independent schools is questionable, but actually when you compare the rest it overly doesn't look too outrageous.
The big problem is how do you treat the outliers in schools. My school was a failing school with really low grades. I'd have been screwed in this situation. What they need to do is apply a sensible appeals process and quickly for those examples. On a whole the numbers look fine, but not analysing each case is wrong in my view.
No offence BFYP but how many times does this government get a pass when they f*ck up because "it's an impossible task" or " it's a tough decision" - blame needs to be apportioned and it needs to start sticking. This government is full of incapable morons, at every level.
To the point where the health secretary blames Public Health England for it’s failings and decides to replace it, does he not realise Public Health England’s failings are his failings as he is health ministet
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It's seems to be the way to go, cut the funding then claim whatever it is can't perform then blame it for underperforming.
''Revealed: value of UK pandemic stockpile fell by 40% in six years
£325m wiped off value of health department’s emergency stockpile including PPE''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/12/revealed-value-of-uk-pandemic-stockpile-fell-by-40-in-six-years
Interviews with more than 15 people who are familiar with the workings of PHE reveal an array of issues that have bedevilled the Westminster government’s wider handling of the crisis. These include an impulse to centralise, a wariness of engaging with industry and the impact of a decade of fiscal austerity, which has cut the agency’s budget by 40 per cent in the seven years since its inception.
https://www.ft.com/content/e149101a-1c93-4b0a-bc12-14ca8bf11b0e
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get ready for things to change Boris' old headmaster is now up in arms
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Rumours of a u-turn coming at 4pm. Legitimately, I have lost count at these now.
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Rumours of a u-turn coming at 4pm. Legitimately, I have lost count at these now.
If a u turn is coming surely the Education Minister must be sacked
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Yes. One Oxford college.
I am hoping this will lead to all Oxford & Cambridge Colleges following (although I would have thought that would have started already)
Oxford and Cambridge are in a much better position to do this than other Universities since they already have the results of their entrance examination, interview and school report, and thus already know more about the candidates. IMHO there is no reason or excuse for them not to accept all candidates under offers this year.
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Let’s hope so, Dutch.
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Rumours of a u-turn coming at 4pm. Legitimately, I have lost count at these now.
If a u turn is coming surely the Education Minister must be sacked
All he has been is incompetent dithering and un awe inspiring
Others have been incompetent - lied - possibly taken money for "favours" pretended not to still have another job when serving as an MP (but spotted wearing a Michael Green and Sebastian Fox Badge anyway) and they have been defended and are still in the Cabinet so I wont hold my breath
OK move over Grayling - you will soon have company on that failing bench - although it should be creaking under the weight of several other transgressors
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Idler, the point I’m making is not every northern student in a large state comprehensive will suffer, despite many claims to the contrary.
If someone puts up a positive link, it can be met with a negative, and vice versa, which shows just that. And just to be clear, I DO think the government have got this wrong, BUT:
1. Not to the point where every working class, northern, large state School student will suffer.
2. Hopefully, this will be rectified quickly.
I understand that belton. My worry is that with already allocating higher than expected numbers of A and A* already allocated to one group they will be reluctant to give as many top grades that are due as it will give a larger number than expected. Whichever way it’s looked at this years grades will appear tainted.
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We have listened to the British Public etc etc there will be no resignation or sacking ........ yet
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Idler, the point I’m making is not every northern student in a large state comprehensive will suffer, despite many claims to the contrary.
If someone puts up a positive link, it can be met with a negative, and vice versa, which shows just that. And just to be clear, I DO think the government have got this wrong, BUT:
1. Not to the point where every working class, northern, large state School student will suffer.
2. Hopefully, this will be rectified quickly.
I understand that belton. My worry is that with already allocating higher than expected numbers of A and A* already allocated to one group they will be reluctant to give as many top grades that are due as it will give a larger number than expected. Whichever way it’s looked at this years grades will appear tainted.
Maybe last years Students will now start complaining that this years lot have "over qualified" them - and next years lot will demand parity with this years students
These days you never know
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Well done, Bozzer. You got this wrong with your maths and statistics, like other countries, but now you’ve set it right.
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Idler, the point I’m making is not every northern student in a large state comprehensive will suffer, despite many claims to the contrary.
If someone puts up a positive link, it can be met with a negative, and vice versa, which shows just that. And just to be clear, I DO think the government have got this wrong, BUT:
1. Not to the point where every working class, northern, large state School student will suffer.
2. Hopefully, this will be rectified quickly.
Belton
You're an odd one. Clearly very intelligent, yet determined to misrepresent what others say, making intelligent discussion impossible.
No-one has said that every working class kid will suffer.
You haven't once accepted that SOME are doing.
You DO know the difference between the particular and the general don't you? I bloody hope so if you are an examiner.
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Definately the right thing to do. No way should thousands of A-level & GCSE pupils have been marked down because of the school they went to.
As to whether you think Cummings, Johnson & Williamson did this because they thought it was the right thing to do when on Friday they said it wasn't, well...
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Absolutely the right thing to do.
I wonder if they'd have done it if there hadn't been a groundswell of anger about the original decision?
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I find myself growing increasingly frustrated with Starmer on this issue. He's written an article in the Mail today (which I'm not linking to because f**k them), which seems to have annoyed everyone a across the political spectrum. Now he's pushing for kids to be back in school next month "no ifs, no buts". Near silence from his education secretary, too. It comes across as a complete lack of leadership on the issue, and that he's more interested in mildly scolding the government whatever they do. Whoever's advising him needs a kick up the arse. Some clarification is needed urgently.
I say this as someone who voted for him and has supported him whole heartedly til now, even as he seems to be fudging every one of his election manifesto promises.
The problem Starmer has got is being f**ked over by the far left of his party. I can’t fathom them out, they’d sooner dish dirt on Starmer and make Labour unelectable than pull together against a far right party
Didn't the Centrists do the same to Corbyn though?
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Idler, the point I’m making is not every northern student in a large state comprehensive will suffer, despite many claims to the contrary.
If someone puts up a positive link, it can be met with a negative, and vice versa, which shows just that. And just to be clear, I DO think the government have got this wrong, BUT:
1. Not to the point where every working class, northern, large state School student will suffer.
2. Hopefully, this will be rectified quickly.
Belton
You're an odd one. Clearly very intelligent, yet determined to misrepresent what others say, making intelligent discussion impossible.
No-one has said that every working class kid will suffer.
You haven't once accepted that SOME are doing.
You DO know the difference between the particular and the general don't you? I bloody hope so if you are an examiner.
You see now you are getting personal, Billy. You are not in ANY position to question my professional responsibilities or duties, or skill. I was reluctant to say I was an examiner, but was a little frustrated that you and others politely told me that my views about qualifications weren’t respected because I didn’t include links from the Guardian/Twitter/BBC etc. This very response shows why I was reluctant. You are embarrassing.
Oh, and the post you comment on was clearly directed to Idler, who responded respectfully and thoughtfully.
By the way, I’m not sure if you are aware, but the government have realised the exam results error and have reacted swiftly and correctly to put this right. That’s what we ALL wanted
Isn’t it?
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Ohh Aye, some more detail coming through now. So this change will apply to A-Levels and GCSE but not BTEC students.
They don't sit BTEC's in public schools do they...
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I do wonder what it would take for someone to get actually sacked from this cabinet. Thing is I'm not remotely surprised he's still in post.
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Ohh Aye, some more detail coming through now. So this change will apply to A-Levels and GCSE but not BTEC students.
They don't sit BTEC's in public schools do they...
I could get used to this ‘provide a link’ game, Wilts.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/btec-courses-a-level-reforms-trigger-rise-in-private-schools-practical-qualifications-kw7f3wtld
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Belton.
I'm sorry that I've obviously upset you but you're consistently setting up straw men to argue against.
1) To my knowledge, NO-ONE has said that every working class kid would have been disadvantaged. I've no idea why you chose to say that many people have been saying that.
2) I didn't say that your views on examining weren't respected because you didn't include links. That is a genuinely bizarre thing to claim. I said that your comments on how the assessment of papers can be challenged in normal times wasn't relevant to the current problem in hand.
You might want to reflect on why you are so badly misrepresenting other people on here. It really doesn't help discussions.
As for the Govt change of policy, yes I have seen it and I'm very pleased that has happened. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, I wonder whether it would have happened without the groundswell of anger against the obvious unfairness, of which this thread has been a tiny contribution.
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Belton,
"I was reluctant to say I was an examiner, but was a little frustrated that you and others politely told me that my views about qualifications weren’t respected because I didn’t include links from the Guardian/Twitter/BBC etc".
With respect, you were not asked to do that.
I asked you to give a reason for your position, and if it is possible to show the basis for that belief. That might be a link to a reputable source backing your argument.
This is completely normal, to show how you get to the view you hold, and to act as food for thought for those who hold a different view.
I am still struggling to understand WHY you think some of the things you have posted. The evidence seems to me weighted against you.
In search of clarity fella...that's all!
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Billy, I said you had no respect for my views on qualifications (the topic of this thread). You talked about lack of respect BEFORE I informed you I was an examiner. And you lecture about reading posts before responding.
As for misrepresentation. I disagree with almost everything you have said about these results. Every one of your links is biased, of course it is because that is how you want people to think: like you, and thank you for it. So, as I disagree with most your biased opinion, I have counteracted that with other links and opinions.
THAT is what makes a debate. I’m sure you could scroll through pages and pages of your links to answer this, but I don’t recall you giving any evidence where working class, northern students of large state schools benefited from this. And that’s because it didn’t fit your agenda.
Oh by the way, Billy, I don’t know if you are aware, but the government have backtracked now so we are all getting what we wanted.
Aren’t we?
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Belton
As I wrote a few minutes ago No, 'we' are not all getting what 'we' want. You might be getting what you want but if you are a BTEC student you have had your exam grade marked by an algorithm marked by a computer programme the government has decided is not fit for purpose. Why?
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Absolutely the right thing to do.
I wonder if they'd have done it if there hadn't been a groundswell of anger about the original decision?
Apologies, Billy, I missed this - I’m not used to you writing two short paragraphs.
Still, the ‘but’ paragraph was much longer than the ‘right decision’ one.
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Ohh Aye, some more detail coming through now. So this change will apply to A-Levels and GCSE but not BTEC students.
They don't sit BTEC's in public schools do they...
I could get used to this ‘provide a link’ game, Wilts.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/btec-courses-a-level-reforms-trigger-rise-in-private-schools-practical-qualifications-kw7f3wtld
That's good, it will give more validity to the BTEC.
Thanks for the link. Not that I wouldn't have believed you without providing evidence of course...
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Belton.
The issue you refer to on respect of opinions wasn't about the A-Level shambles. It was about your much more general approach of not criticising the Govt. Specifically, your opinion that the Govt had done OK in 2020.
Here's my post.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=277450.msg980528#msg980528
I clearly said that I didn't respect your general opinion not because it was wrong, but because it was given without reasoning to support it. I have that opinion about anyone's opinions given without justification - mine included.
I wouldn't dream of questioning your more detailed knowledge of the examination process. In fact I explicitly referred to your "considerable knowledge" on that topic.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=277450.msg980785#msg980785
PS. I still stand by my take that although your argument about appeals in normal times comes from a far more informed position than my own, it was meaningless ("irrelevant" would have been a slightly less unpleasant word) in this case because the problem wasn't assessment of papers, it was reprofiling of the marks across the board.
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So Billy, if I post a link from an openly biased source, that would give my own opinion more credibility?
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Yes. One Oxford college.
[/quote
I am hoping this will lead to all Oxford & Cambridge Colleges following (although I would have thought that would have started already)
Oxford and Cambridge are in a much better position to do this than other Universities since they already have the results of their entrance examination, interview and school report, and thus already know more about the candidates. IMHO there is no reason or excuse for them not to accept all candidates under offers this year.
Currently 5 colleges have said they will honour all offers, so hopefully eventually they all will. The Government u-turn to IMHO the only acceptable solution, will mean surely that nearly every one will make the grades, but maybe there were a small number where the predicted grades were not enough, and hopefully they will be accepted as well.
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Dutch.
That's all very well for Oxford and very laudible.
Further down the chain, Russell Group Universities have little wiggle room, hence these stories.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53808233
It truly beggars belief that over 5 months, someone at OfQual or the Govt hasn't seen this coming.
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get ready for things to change Boris' old headmaster is now up in arms
The 3rd and 4th paragraph on that second page...
You have to laugh don't you. I know that things have moved on since that letter was written, but just look at the leverage that Eton has, and compare it to Meccy Comp, if they reckon they were unfairly treated.
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Dutch.
That's all very well for Oxford and very laudible.
Further down the chain, Russell Group Universities have little wiggle room, hence these stories.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53808233
It truly beggars belief that over 5 months, someone at OfQual or the Govt hasn't seen this coming.
Absolutely BST, and what a totally avoidable mess which affects young people's lives so much. Combination of wanting to be seen to be doing something when not interfering is the best option, not having a clue, not listening and total head in the sand when it goes wrong.
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Cummings' track record is current 0-2 so far as I can see.
He was pushing the utterly disastrous Herd Immunity policy back in February.
Now one of his Algorithmic Govt mates at OfQual has presided over this clusterf**k.
Much easier to write pseudo-intellectual mad ramblings on a blog than actually get the process of government right.
What scares the living bejaysus out of me is that one of Cummings' blog posts was about how we should use algorithms to determine our policy on nuclear weapons stance vis-a-vis the Russians.
God help us.
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Belton.
The issue you refer to on respect of opinions wasn't about the A-Level shambles. It was about your much more general approach of not criticising the Govt. Specifically, your opinion that the Govt had done OK in 2020.
Here's my post.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=277450.msg980528#msg980528
I clearly said that I didn't respect your general opinion not because it was wrong, but because it was given without reasoning to support it. I have that opinion about anyone's opinions given without justification - mine included.
I wouldn't dream of questioning your more detailed knowledge of the examination process. In fact I explicitly referred to your "considerable knowledge" on that topic.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=277450.msg980785#msg980785
PS. I still stand by my take that although your argument about appeals in normal times comes from a far more informed position than my own, it was meaningless ("irrelevant" would have been a slightly less unpleasant word) in this case because the problem wasn't assessment of papers, it was reprofiling of the marks across the board.
With regard to you ‘standing by your take’, I was replying to a link someone else was using to try to prove that THIS CURRENT appeal process was pointless. I can only comment on the links that are used as evidence/proof/respectability to opinions.
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It truly beggars belief that over 5 months, someone at OfQual or the Govt hasn't seen this coming.
That for me is the frightening thing - that unlike the criticism over Covid where a lot of "hindsight" could be applied here is a situation that people are pointing out was known about from March
That was when the Exams for this season were scrapped in their usual format and from that point the Govt must have had a roadmap for delivering the grades for each and every Student but as late as Thursday Johnson and Williamson were calling their chosen syatem as "robust" and "not for changing"
We should have known as presumably it will now be in the history books along with "an Oven Ready" EU deal that wasnt and a "World Class (or World beating) Track and Trace System that wasnt
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DW.
Aye. 5 months to sort this out and what a prize ominishambles it is.
Oh aye. By the way. The same Govt has 4 months to sort out our post-Brexit deal with the EU.
Nowt to worry about there then, eh?
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And Williamson has just been on BBC and Sky News and like an idiot I watched both (I must be a fool) and his explanation is / was lamentable
All he said basically on "a loop" is that all he wanted was a fair system for all youngsters and that he had put in a robust system of appeal - and that centre assessed grades were the fairest thing
Oh and he is committed to the UK having the worlds best Education system - and that is what he would be working towards
IMO - I think he is quite the least convincing Minister I have ever seen and torture to watch being interviewed and should return (or be returned to) being an MP where he could possibly be more in his depth
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Billy
If we asked everyone on here where DRFC are going to finish next season, some are going to get it right. Most will get it wrong. All will use either heart or head to form an opinion, or both. Some will use facts and statistics to help them decide - even they would come up with different answers.
Of course people were saying this exam system would not work. Just like different people were saying it would.
You’re wrong about the uproar having nothing to do with hindsight. How many voices do you think were saying it wouldn’t work in March compared to those now saying ‘I told you so’ (or words to that effect, of course).
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It truly beggars belief that over 5 months, someone at OfQual or the Govt hasn't seen this coming.
That for me is the frightening thing - that unlike the criticism over Covid where a lot of "hindsight" could be applied here is a situation that people are pointing out was known about from March
That was when the Exams for this season were scrapped in their usual format and from that point the Govt must have had a roadmap for delivering the grades for each and every Student but as late as Thursday Johnson and Williamson were calling their chosen syatem as "robust" and "not for changing"
We should have known as presumably it will now be in the history books along with "an Oven Ready" EU deal that wasnt and a "World Class (or World beating) Track and Trace System that wasnt
Wolfie, “unlike the criticism over Covid where a lot of hindsight could be applied”.
Surely not.
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‘Much easier to write pseudo-intellectual mad ramblings on a blog than actually get the process of government right.‘
Ha ha, Billy, it certainly is! You won’t enter politics for real, will you?
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What I can't get my head around with all this is the fact that the kids are complaining about results for exams which they have not taken. They may well have done well in coursework and had they taken the exams totally flunked them. Some people are like that. I think one valuable lesson they can take from all this is that real life isn't fair and you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime you get what you need. :)
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Exams are an unfair way of assessing a person's ability anyway IMO.
Some are excellent at them others aren't. Same with interviews.
I worked for some truly appalling managers in the NHS who were shiit hot at interviews but useless at everything else.
Years ago there was talk of ending exams altogether and using continuous assessment instead. (Which needs to be more rigorous than this teacher assessment by the way)
Seems fairer to me.
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The thing is though if you have consistently achieved good results and are then given a lower grade how does that make you feel?
Course work is a good indicator rather than cramming for an exam and sailing through.
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And it will change again Tommy, when another minister will play politics with education and decide it’s all wrong and time to do things differently..
I know Gove couldn’t have predicted the happenings of 2020, but if he hadn’t made the appalling decision to revert back to exam only qualifications (not so much A level, but certainly GCSE) the situation wouldn’t have nearly as difficult.
You never know, one thing positive that might come out of this is that the government may realise that final exams should only be a percentage of the qualification.
I’m not holding my breath, though.
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Exams are an unfair way of assessing a person's ability anyway IMO.
Some are excellent at them others aren't. Same with interviews.
I worked for some truly appalling managers in the NHS who were shiit hot at interviews but useless at everything else.
Years ago there was talk of ending exams altogether and using continuous assessment instead. (Which needs to be more rigorous than this teacher assessment by the way)
Seems fairer to me.
Continuous assessment is fine as long as the work is assessed independently. Teachers should not be allowed to assess pupils work from their own school.
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The thing is though if you have consistently achieved good results and are then given a lower grade how does that make you feel?
Course work is a good indicator rather than cramming for an exam and sailing through.
But do you not think that an exam is a better indicator of working under pressure with time limitations. Better preparation for the real world maybe?
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I think it's better to use both. Working under pressure is fine but how do you work on routine things when the pressure is off?
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I think it has to be a combination of both to be a fair and more rounded system. Teachers are currently ‘forced’ to teach to the exam requirements. For example, a child studying English Literature will write about 5/6 different texts in their GCSE exam.
Because it is 100% exam based, many schools, from year 9 (sometimes earlier) teach the students nothing but that handful of texts for 3 years or more.
This prepares them for the exam, but drastically reduces their knowledge of literature and love of reading.
It’s a crying shame.
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I think it's better to use both. Working under pressure is fine but how do you work on routine things when the pressure is off?
You're probably right.
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Billy
If we asked everyone on here where DRFC are going to finish next season, some are going to get it right. Most will get it wrong. All will use either heart or head to form an opinion, or both. Some will use facts and statistics to help them decide - even they would come up with different answers.
Of course people were saying this exam system would not work. Just like different people were saying it would.
You’re wrong about the uproar having nothing to do with hindsight. How many voices do you think were saying it wouldn’t work in March compared to those now saying ‘I told you so’ (or words to that effect, of course).
Belton.
I haven't got the foggiest which of my posts you are responding to here, but I'm sure it made sense to you
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I think it's better to use both. Working under pressure is fine but how do you work on routine things when the pressure is off?
You're probably right.
Billy
If we asked everyone on here where DRFC are going to finish next season, some are going to get it right. Most will get it wrong. All will use either heart or head to form an opinion, or both. Some will use facts and statistics to help them decide - even they would come up with different answers.
Of course people were saying this exam system would not work. Just like different people were saying it would.
You’re wrong about the uproar having nothing to do with hindsight. How many voices do you think were saying it wouldn’t work in March compared to those now saying ‘I told you so’ (or words to that effect, of course).
Belton.
I haven't got the foggiest which of my posts you are responding to here, but I'm sure it made sense to you
I’m not surprised, Billy, what with me being ‘odd’.
Let me explain:
This fictional notion you have that ‘people’ (whoever they are) were saying In March this issue with the exams was always going to happen, so no question that any of this uproar has anything do do with hindsight.
With me so far?
Whenever predictions are made, someone will be proved right, that doesn’t mean everyone Knew what would happen, just that some may have guessed right.
Still with me?
I saw very little evidence that ‘people’ predicted this at all.
Perhaps the football metaphor was too much for you to contend with, so let’s try this:
Imagine this forum is a microcosm for ‘people’.
From March 18th, into April. I can’t find a single post from ‘people’ about the system never working and favouring the rich, and all these things you are suggesting were said. Fast forward to after the event, and everyone has an opinion (not literally, before you take me to task on misrepresentation).
Your desperation to try and claw back some respectability is not a good look.
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Belton
At what stage did you (as an examiner) know that the system the government had come up with to mark this years exams was biased against schools in deprived areas?
We, the public, knew when the results came out last Thursday. When Johnson & Williamson were all over the tv telling us it was fair, robust and not going to change btw.
The schools suspected it a week or so before when they got the results - and saw what happened with the Scottish results.
The univeristies knew two weeks before when they recieved the results as they could compare prospective entrants.
When did you (and other external examiners) know? When did Ofqual know? When did the government know? These are the crucial questions.
Did nobody actually check this thing until the results came out? When they have had since March to do it?
Its like the world beating test and trace app that didn't work. You might want to give them the benefit. I see a pattern emerging.
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I know it’s hindsight but surely somebody should have used the algorithms on last year’s results to see how drastic the changes would be.
They would have had something to compare and estimate how accurate or not this year’s results were likely to be. It would have saved a lot of trouble and a further lack of trust in those responsible.
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Here is a helpful graphic to show the winners and losers in this shambles;
https://twitter.com/Edenrx298/status/1294262797254250497/photo/1
Now does anybody know if those who gained from the allocation of University places under the original award will be re-considered under the revision.
Some courses, such as Medicine, are highly sought after and once an offer is made and accepted, can it be rescinded to allow those who were disadvantaged by the first error to be considered?
If not, the lasting effects of the algorithmic bias are encoded for this years allocations.
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Belton
At what stage did you (as an examiner) know that the system the government had come up with to mark this years exams was biased against schools in deprived areas?
We, the public, knew when the results came out last Thursday. When Johnson & Williamson were all over the tv telling us it was fair, robust and not going to change btw.
The schools suspected it a week or so before when they got the results - and saw what happened with the Scottish results.
The univeristies knew two weeks before when they recieved the results as they could compare prospective entrants.
When did you (and other external examiners) know? When did Ofqual know? When did the government know? These are the crucial questions.
Did nobody actually check this thing until the results came out? When they have had since March to do it?
Its like the world beating test and trace app that didn't work. You might want to give them the benefit. I see a pattern emerging.
Same time as you, Wilts.
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Exactly idler.
Did they not know? Or did they not care (becaue it was going to benefit public schools)?
There were reports in July by the TES & Commons Education Committee. Somebody knew five weeks ago.
https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1295630403026456576
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Belton
At what stage did you (as an examiner) know that the system the government had come up with to mark this years exams was biased against schools in deprived areas?
We, the public, knew when the results came out last Thursday. When Johnson & Williamson were all over the tv telling us it was fair, robust and not going to change btw.
The schools suspected it a week or so before when they got the results - and saw what happened with the Scottish results.
The univeristies knew two weeks before when they recieved the results as they could compare prospective entrants.
When did you (and other external examiners) know? When did Ofqual know? When did the government know? These are the crucial questions.
Did nobody actually check this thing until the results came out? When they have had since March to do it?
Its like the world beating test and trace app that didn't work. You might want to give them the benefit. I see a pattern emerging.
Same time as you, Wilts.
That disappoints (but doesn't surprise) me Belton. Somebody should have been checking the thing! If examiners weren't involved - who was?
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If this really was set up to deliberately benefit the rich (and I don’t think it was, but I really don’t know), then ANY government would expect a backlash like this. If that’s the case then why the almost immediate U turn?
And I don’t accept it’s because the Tories are morons.
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Belton
At what stage did you (as an examiner) know that the system the government had come up with to mark this years exams was biased against schools in deprived areas?
We, the public, knew when the results came out last Thursday. When Johnson & Williamson were all over the tv telling us it was fair, robust and not going to change btw.
The schools suspected it a week or so before when they got the results - and saw what happened with the Scottish results.
The univeristies knew two weeks before when they recieved the results as they could compare prospective entrants.
When did you (and other external examiners) know? When did Ofqual know? When did the government know? These are the crucial questions.
Did nobody actually check this thing until the results came out? When they have had since March to do it?
Its like the world beating test and trace app that didn't work. You might want to give them the benefit. I see a pattern emerging.
Same time as you, Wilts.
That disappoints (but doesn't surprise) me Belton. Somebody should have been checking the thing! If examiners weren't involved - who was?
Just to be clear, Wilts. I have no idea what the exam board knew, or was involved in, but as examiners, we were told our services wouldn’t be required in April.
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If this really was set up to deliberately benefit the rich (and I don’t think it was, but I really don’t know), then ANY government would expect a backlash like this. If that’s the case then why the almost immediate U turn?
And I don’t accept it’s because the Tories are morons.
People aren't morons just because they're Tories. But this Cabinet seems absolutely rammed with morons.
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Do you not accept the Tories are morons or do you not accept it's because the Tories are morons?
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Williamson - it could be worse. Remember he was Defence Secretary then got sacked for leaking stuff to the press and telling Russia to "shut up and go away"
Here are more of the gaffes of the man they called Private Pike
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gavin-williamson-sacked-huawei-leak-scandal-defence-secretary-a8896606.html
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Good explainer from Chris Giles of the FT on the problems with the AI;
https://www.ft.com/video/282ecd1f-8402-4bf4-8ee7-3d179ce5fcc2
Free to view, 5 mins.
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I think it's better to use both. Working under pressure is fine but how do you work on routine things when the pressure is off?
You're probably right.
Billy
If we asked everyone on here where DRFC are going to finish next season, some are going to get it right. Most will get it wrong. All will use either heart or head to form an opinion, or both. Some will use facts and statistics to help them decide - even they would come up with different answers.
Of course people were saying this exam system would not work. Just like different people were saying it would.
You’re wrong about the uproar having nothing to do with hindsight. How many voices do you think were saying it wouldn’t work in March compared to those now saying ‘I told you so’ (or words to that effect, of course).
Belton.
I haven't got the foggiest which of my posts you are responding to here, but I'm sure it made sense to you
I’m not surprised, Billy, what with me being ‘odd’.
Let me explain:
This fictional notion you have that ‘people’ (whoever they are) were saying In March this issue with the exams was always going to happen, so no question that any of this uproar has anything do do with hindsight.
With me so far?
Whenever predictions are made, someone will be proved right, that doesn’t mean everyone Knew what would happen, just that some may have guessed right.
Still with me?
I saw very little evidence that ‘people’ predicted this at all.
Perhaps the football metaphor was too much for you to contend with, so let’s try this:
Imagine this forum is a microcosm for ‘people’.
From March 18th, into April. I can’t find a single post from ‘people’ about the system never working and favouring the rich, and all these things you are suggesting were said. Fast forward to after the event, and everyone has an opinion (not literally, before you take me to task on misrepresentation).
Your desperation to try and claw back some respectability is not a good look.
Belton.
I've no idea who these "people" are who you are referring to. I've also no idea why you directed that post at me.
May I make a polite suggestion and recommend that you read my posts a few times before responding to them? Only, it's just that this is now the third or fourth time in this thread that you seem to have convinced yourself that I've said something that I haven't.
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‘Much easier to write pseudo-intellectual mad ramblings on a blog than actually get the process of government right.‘
Ha ha, Billy, it certainly is! You won’t enter politics for real, will you?
Nope.
I knew someone as an undergraduate who went into politics. Lovely lad but thick as a bucket of monkey spunk. He's now a senior Tory backbencher.
Another undergraduate colleague became a Labour junior minister under Blair. She was passionate and committed but far from the sharpest knife in the box.
I realised from those days I didn't have what those two had that made them favourites to get on in politics.
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I think it's better to use both. Working under pressure is fine but how do you work on routine things when the pressure is off?
You're probably right.
Billy
If we asked everyone on here where DRFC are going to finish next season, some are going to get it right. Most will get it wrong. All will use either heart or head to form an opinion, or both. Some will use facts and statistics to help them decide - even they would come up with different answers.
Of course people were saying this exam system would not work. Just like different people were saying it would.
You’re wrong about the uproar having nothing to do with hindsight. How many voices do you think were saying it wouldn’t work in March compared to those now saying ‘I told you so’ (or words to that effect, of course).
Belton.
I haven't got the foggiest which of my posts you are responding to here, but I'm sure it made sense to you
I’m not surprised, Billy, what with me being ‘odd’.
Let me explain:
This fictional notion you have that ‘people’ (whoever they are) were saying In March this issue with the exams was always going to happen, so no question that any of this uproar has anything do do with hindsight.
With me so far?
Whenever predictions are made, someone will be proved right, that doesn’t mean everyone Knew what would happen, just that some may have guessed right.
Still with me?
I saw very little evidence that ‘people’ predicted this at all.
Perhaps the football metaphor was too much for you to contend with, so let’s try this:
Imagine this forum is a microcosm for ‘people’.
From March 18th, into April. I can’t find a single post from ‘people’ about the system never working and favouring the rich, and all these things you are suggesting were said. Fast forward to after the event, and everyone has an opinion (not literally, before you take me to task on misrepresentation).
Your desperation to try and claw back some respectability is not a good look.
Belton.
I've no idea who these "people" are who you are referring to. I've also no idea why you directed that post at me.
May I make a polite suggestion and recommend that you read my posts a few times before responding to them? Only, it's just that this is now the third or fourth time in this thread that you seem to have convinced yourself that I've said something that I haven't.
‘That for me is the frightening thing - that unlike the criticism over Covid where a lot of "hindsight" could be applied here is a situation that people are pointing out was known about from March‘
How am I supposed to know who the people are? You are the one saying they knew about it in March. Unless you didn't mean people.
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Belton.
Like I said, I strongly suggest you read what I write several times before you respond.
I assume this is the post you are referring to?
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=277450.msg981312#msg981312
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If this really was set up to deliberately benefit the rich (and I don’t think it was, but I really don’t know), then ANY government would expect a backlash like this. If that’s the case then why the almost immediate U turn?
And I don’t accept it’s because the Tories are morons.
Did you not see the recent honours list? Peerages given out to IRA apologists and relatives of KGB agents - not for what they have done for the country but for what they have done for Boris Johnson & Dominic Cummings.
This government do not care. They got the results they wanted - priority university application for their friends and donors children - so what if they then overturn something they said they wouldn't - let someone else sort the next problem out.
Why did they overturn it? Focus groups. Everything this government does is measured. Do people in the Red Wall seats like this? No, scrap it. There's always someone else to defect the blame on.
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Well as that is the post I partly quoted then yes. I am going now pre-empt your ‘I never said that‘ speech you’re so fond of. You have suggested that this debacle was foreseen in March, therefore the uproar since the results came out cannot be views made with hindsight. Yes, you didn’t use the word ‘people‘ in that part of the sentence, it was a word or two before that.
Who or what (if it wasn’t ‘people’) knew what was going to happen in March, to such a level that hindsight isn’t a thing here?
Phew!
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Belton.
I've given you several hints but this is getting embarrassing and boring now so I'll be blunt.
I didn't say that.
DW did.
Go and read the post that you are quoting. And when you've done that, maybe you should pause and ponder why you are so determined to read into my posts things I have never said.
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Billy. I see my error - too many quotes and requotes. I apologise unreservedly for confusing you with DW. In my defence, you agreed with him so my question still stands, for DW and yourself.
However, it was rather immature of you play silly games when I directly misquoted you. You must have realised I was making a genuine error, but, hey-ho, I knew what I was dealing with. You’re good without ammunition, so to hand you the gun and the bullet...
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Easy from my point of view to explain as my op was not that clear
Many many things happened during the (ongoing) Pandemic and the Government got some things right and some things wrong - and it involved a lot of "fire fighting" for example having not many and the wrong type of PPE for example. So people can criticise them for a lot of things as they were acting in hindsight
Clearly once the Government closed Schools to lots of Students and made it clear there could be no Examinations as in normal years then "people" like the Ministers and the Civil Servants and the Press knew something would need to be put in place
Ergo "people" knew there was a problem to be solved in the distance and I am surprised that they had all that time and presided over what to my lay persons eye looks a bloody (and continuing) mess
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Belton.
Apology unnecessary.
It's an easy mistake to make. I've done it myself many times.
Ordinarily, I'd have left it at that. But given that you caveated your apology with a "yeah but you do think that anyway", I suggest now that you should go back and carefully read what DW actually said, and what I responded "Aye" to. And then think really hard whether this entire exchange could have been avoided.
Actually, f**k it. Life's too short. I'll explain.
DW did NOT say that people on here had been pointing this out for 5 months. He said, clearly and unambiguously that people on here have pointed out that the Govt knew about this issue 5 months ago.
He said "here is a situation that people are pointing out was known about from March".
Not, "here is a situation that people having been pointing since March."
Maybe now that is clear, you'll pay me a little bit of respect by refraining from putting words in my mouth and ideas in my head that have never been there, but that you seem to have a need to be what I think and say.
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‘Much easier to write pseudo-intellectual mad ramblings on a blog than actually get the process of government right.‘
Ha ha, Billy, it certainly is! You won’t enter politics for real, will you?
Nope.
I knew someone as an undergraduate who went into politics. Lovely lad but thick as a bucket of monkey spunk. He's now a senior Tory backbencher.
Another undergraduate colleague became a Labour junior minister under Blair. She was passionate and committed but far from the sharpest knife in the box.
I realised from those days I didn't have what those two had that made them favourites to get on in politics.
So you’re sticking to writing ‘pseudo-intellectual mad ramblings on a blog’ (or off shoot of a football forum) ‘than actually get the process of government right’, then?
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Yep. You got a problem with that?
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Belton.
Apology unnecessary.
It's an easy mistake to make. I've done it myself many times.
Ordinarily, I'd have left it at that. But given that you caveated your apology with a "yeah but you do think that anyway", I suggest now that you should go back and carefully read what DW actually said, and what I responded "Aye" to. And then think really hard whether this entire exchange could have been avoided.
Actually, f**k it. Life's too short. I'll explain.
DW did NOT say that people on here had been pointing this out for 5 months. He said, clearly and unambiguously that people on here have pointed out that the Govt knew about this issue 5 months ago.
He said "here is a situation that people are pointing out was known about from March".
Not, "here is a situation that people having been pointing since March."
Maybe now that is clear, you'll pay me a little bit of respect by refraining from putting words in my mouth and ideas in my head that have never been there, but that you seem to have a need to be what I think and say.
And in that response, not a single mention of the word ‘hindsight’, the whole point of that quote.
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Yep. You got a problem with that?
I haven’t, but it clears a few things up. Although the Labour Party, who you seem to be unofficially representing might have.
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Yep. You got a problem with that?
I haven’t, but it clears a few things up. Although the Labour Party, who you seem to be unofficially representing might have.
It was a rhetorical question.
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Was it?
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Belton.
Apology unnecessary.
It's an easy mistake to make. I've done it myself many times.
Ordinarily, I'd have left it at that. But given that you caveated your apology with a "yeah but you do think that anyway", I suggest now that you should go back and carefully read what DW actually said, and what I responded "Aye" to. And then think really hard whether this entire exchange could have been avoided.
Actually, f**k it. Life's too short. I'll explain.
DW did NOT say that people on here had been pointing this out for 5 months. He said, clearly and unambiguously that people on here have pointed out that the Govt knew about this issue 5 months ago.
He said "here is a situation that people are pointing out was known about from March".
Not, "here is a situation that people having been pointing since March."
Maybe now that is clear, you'll pay me a little bit of respect by refraining from putting words in my mouth and ideas in my head that have never been there, but that you seem to have a need to be what I think and say.
And in that response, not a single mention of the word ‘hindsight’, the whole point of that quote.
You've picked a very odd hill on which to make a sacrifice your self-respect and I've given you many opportunities to make a gracious withdrawal but it just goes on.
DW's "hindsight" comment meant that the Govt knew in advance precisely the problem they had with the exams, whereas they had (and have frequently used) the excuse on other COVID issues that they didn't know in advance what the problems were going to be.
That's so obvious, it's embarrassing to have to point it out.
You seem utterly determined to convince yourself that I'm acting in bad faith here and frankly it's embarrassing.
Why are you determined not to accept that I'm being honest and transparent?
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Because I don’t believe you are.
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Yep. You got a problem with that?
I haven’t, but it clears a few things up. Although the Labour Party, who you seem to be unofficially representing might have.
Seriously though, you've got three options really haven't you?
1) Ignore me as an impotent rambler.
2) Engage in the merit of the subject being discussed, like folk used to do at the pit head or in the Miners' Welfare, where politics was picked over.
3) Assume that the person you are engaging with is an insincere t**t who needs to be tripped up.
Odd that anyone would ever waste their time on choosing option 3, but plenty do seem to do in here.
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Because I don’t believe you are.
And you base that opinion on?
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If this really was set up to deliberately benefit the rich (and I don’t think it was, but I really don’t know), then ANY government would expect a backlash like this. If that’s the case then why the almost immediate U turn?
And I don’t accept it’s because the Tories are morons.
It's unconscious bias?
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Yep. You got a problem with that?
I haven’t, but it clears a few things up. Although the Labour Party, who you seem to be unofficially representing might have.
Seriously though, you've got three options really haven't you?
1) Ignore me as an impotent rambler.
2) Engage in the merit of the subject being discussed, like folk used to do at the pit head or in the Miners' Welfare, where politics was picked over.
3) Assume that the person you are engaging with is an insincere t**t who needs to be tripped up.
Odd that anyone would ever waste their time on choosing option 3, but plenty do seem to do in here.
I’d like to pick No2, but you made it clear that I needed to understand internet debates and attempted to ridicule me when I mis-read a back log of quotes. Not really miners’ welfare conversation.
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I know it’s hindsight but surely somebody should have used the algorithms on last year’s results to see how drastic the changes would be.
They would have had something to compare and estimate how accurate or not this year’s results were likely to be. It would have saved a lot of trouble and a further lack of trust in those responsible.
Can we use an algorithm to predict the next cock-up, do we need to?
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‘Odd that anyone would ever waste their time on choosing option 3, but plenty do seem to do in here.‘
Why is that, do you think?
That’s not a rhetorical question.
‘Politics picked over in the miners’ welfare’.
I‘m assuming you mean a typical South Yorkshire miners’ welfare in the 1970s/80s.
That wouldn’t have been politics picked over. It would have been (quite rightfully so) an almost 100% agreement that Thatcher was an Evil witch and ALL Conservatives were bas**rds. Everyone in the room would think the same (if they didn’t, they would be in serious, actual trouble.
So no, this isn’t the place for that, but I think you, relatively speaking, wish it was.
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DW.
Aye. 5 months to sort this out and what a prize ominishambles it is.
Oh aye. By the way. The same Govt has 4 months to sort out our post-Brexit deal with the EU.
Nowt to worry about there then, eh?
Your "omnishambles" has been taken up by the Metro. Glad to see at least one part of Print media is noticing the current situation
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-53829638
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Belton.
My apologies if you think I tried to ridicule you. What I intended to do was to point out your consistent misinterpretation of what I said and think. Something you have done consistently throughout this thread and not once backtracked on or apologised for. I do not understand why you have done that from the off, despite me pointing it out numerous times. And I admit, it does get wearing and I may have responded tetchily. If I overstepped the mark in they way I pointed that out, and that has caused offence, I apologise 100%.
I suggest we discuss this by PM from now as I'm sure it is boring everyone else.
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Billy.
I can only form an opinion on what you think by the things you say and the vocabulary you use to say it. If that is a misrepresentation, then I suggest you choose your words more carefully.
Maybe its because internet debate only allows someone to form an opinion through that one medium. I’m not suggesting you or I are keyboard warriors, but it is a haven for false representation; sometimes deliberate, sometimes not.
If I have ever or ever in the future misrepresent or misjudge your thoughts, then I apologise. But remember my judgement only comes from the words you write.
I’m with you on boring other posters, although I have found similar differences in the past to be juicy reads. Perhaps this one has gone one too long.
Finally, with the greatest of respect, I have no intention of continuing ANY discussion on here through PM.
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Belton
Your call on PMs.
Regarding what I have written, I've gone back and re-read everyone of the things you've misconstrued and I'm happy that each one was clear and unambiguous.
With respect, judgements are only valid if they come from CORRECT reading of the words people write.
As I say, I'm guilty of misreading other people's words on here. It happens easily, but when it is pointed out, I think we all have a responsibility to reflect on that. Otherwise, discussion is bound to spiral down into unpleasantness.
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Then we can only agree to disagree.
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You clearly disagree with the last paragraph of my post, unfortunately.
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Belton.
My apologies if you think I tried to ridicule you. What I intended to do was to point out your consistent misinterpretation of what I said and think. Something you have done consistently throughout this thread and not once backtracked on or apologised for. I do not understand why you have done that from the off, despite me pointing it out numerous times. And I admit, it does get wearing and I may have responded tetchily. If I overstepped the mark in they way I pointed that out, and that has caused offence, I apologise 100%.
I suggest we discuss this by PM from now as I'm sure it is boring everyone else.
Boring? No way BST. It's better than watching a custard pie throwing contest is this.
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Billy.
I’m really not sure what you are looking for now. I don’t think I have misread your words. You think I have. We are both tired of this. Let’s agree to disagree.
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Belton.
If you have truly looked at what I said, then at what you said I said, and you honestly don't think you got it wrong several times, there's really no point in us discussing anything again. We live in different logic universes.
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Is that the same as agreeing to disagree?
I hope so.
Perhaps if you just said it, I wouldn’t misrepresent it.
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It certainly is agreeing to disagree. But I'm genuinely astonished that someone with your intelligence is genuinely sticking to that line.
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I think we astonish each other.
I actually like that thought.
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Belton.
Just for the record, here's an example of our exchange.
I said.
"Once again, (the Govt guidance) says that the initial assessments cannot be challenged. Only the reprofiling. So your comments (albeit from a position of considerable knowledge in normal times) about appealing on marking are meaningless this year."
You replied:
"For Christ’s sake Billy, the link you are assuming I haven’t read, and is the whole reason for your latest attempt to ‘trump’ me is based on the appeal system that you say is meaningless."
You later said that I'd told you that your views about qualifications weren't to be respected because you hadn't included links from Twitter/Guardian/BBC.
Which of course I'd never said.
When I pointed out that I'd never said that, you responded with:
"I said you had no respect for my views on qualifications (the topic of this thread). You talked about lack of respect BEFORE I informed you I was an examiner."
Except I hadn't. You had misconstrued something that clearly said nothing of the sort.
When I pointed you to the post that you'd misunderstood, you ignored that.
You REALLY still sticking to the line that you weren't misrepresenting what I said? Honestly?
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Billy. Have we agreed to disagree, or not?
THAT’S the line I’M TRYING to stick to.
Next you’ll be accusing me of thinking you can’t bear not to be told how right you are.
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Belton.
I'm a big believer in objective truth. Without it any form of discussion is meaningless.
I want to put down a marker that you do not agree with that. Just so we don't have to go through this tedious bullshit again.
If you are determined to misrepresent what people say, and continue doing it when people calmly point it out to you, you are not worth wasting any more time on.
You can agree or disagree on that as you wish, but I'll be ignoring you from here on.
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No more custard pies then.
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Aawww, I will have to go back to my War and a Peace book then.
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And me to my Beano Annual.
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Belton.
I'm a big believer in objective truth. Without it any form of discussion is meaningless.
I want to put down a marker that you do not agree with that. Just so we don't have to go through this tedious bullshit again.
If you are determined to misrepresent what people say, and continue doing it when people calmly point it out to you, you are not worth wasting any more time on.
You can agree or disagree on that as you wish, but I'll be ignoring you from here on.
People? Plural? As far as I’m aware it is you alone who has chosen to ignore me due to misrepresentation.
Be careful not to go misrepresenting other people.
I am truly sorry you feel that way. My loss as well as yours ☹️
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Shame, I came hear to see grown up discussions.
I'll go back to my crayons.
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And here you have it the morally bankrupt leading the blind.
''Firm linked to Gove and Cummings hired to work with Ofqual on A-levels
The firm is understood to have been initially contracted to assist Ofqual with communicating its A-level and GSCE results plan to help secure public confidence in the strategy.''
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/aug/20/firm-linked-to-gove-and-cummings-hired-to-work-with-ofqual-on-a-levels
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A slight sideline, but this made me smile....
(https://www.owlstalk.co.uk/forums/uploads/monthly_2020_08/54295EFC-332F-4798-A3E8-D15F076E6601.jpeg.b67ac3107df5cf615c7c3d6915462854.jpeg)
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A slight sideline, but this made me smile....
(https://www.owlstalk.co.uk/forums/uploads/monthly_2020_08/54295EFC-332F-4798-A3E8-D15F076E6601.jpeg.b67ac3107df5cf615c7c3d6915462854.jpeg)
yes seen that one many times but have you seen this one
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4384328/Tony-Blair-says-social-media-killed-career.html
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Johnson blames a mutant algorithm for the mess, how stupid does he think people are?
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Not quite as stupid as he was to give that speech without checking to see what books the school librarian had put on display behind him it seems!
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Well, THIS doesn't pull any punches.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-53998744
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Clearly the way they went about marking the grades In the first place didn’t work, trusting the teachers for me was not the best idea either, I hope if they need to do this again they come up with a better idea
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Bpool.
Did you see the new head of OFQUAL, the exams regulator being grilled by the Education Select Committee last week? Saying that OFQUAL had been telling the Govt from April that the algorithm method was fatally flawed, but the Govt ignored them and used it anyway. And then sacked the head of OFQUAL.
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Yes mate was wrong and that way was never going to work, Williamson should have been the first person to go, at the minute I’m not sure what they could do if it happens again thou?
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Clearly the way they went about marking the grades In the first place didn’t work, trusting the teachers for me was not the best idea either, I hope if they need to do this again they come up with a better idea
Why wouldn’t you think it was unwise to trust teachers to judge student grades?
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Surely Offsted could do random checks of pupils coursework books to gauge if a final grades reflected a true reflection of their ability?
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My 2 got grades far higher than they would have if sat the exams, of course that’s great and were really pleased but if that was to carry on they would become worthless, one at collage was doing a course last year and swopped collages and changed course, she only did 3 months of a 2 year course and still managed 2 distinction stars when she should have received nothing, the other did gcse and would have got c and and couple of b grades but got all a 2 a stars and 2 b, again great but there is no way she would have got anything near that, my mate teaches at a local collage and was told to pass every student no matter what even if they would have failed so again not anywhere near a true reflection
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That situation also cheapens the grades of pupils that did actually work hard and would have achieved good grades under normal circumstances.
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Yes and that is the problem, while it’s not the students fault and not the teachers really as they only want what is best for the kids in the long run the grades wouldn’t be worth much
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So if all kids got upgraded results this year it doesn't really affect anything in the long run
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So if all kids got upgraded results this year it doesn't really affect anything in the long run
but if it keeps happening there not getting there true results which will make them pointless
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Do you think thete will be no exams next year after this years fiasco?
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So if all kids got upgraded results this year it doesn't really affect anything in the long run
That's the problem though, there's a ceiling to the grading system which means the genuine highest performers are penalised by the top grades being swamped by less capable candidates.
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Do you think thete will be no exams next year after this years fiasco?ive no idea it’s a possibility as I presume you don’t no how this virus will pan out
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Do you think thete will be no exams next year after this years fiasco?ive no idea it’s a possibility as I presume you don’t no how this virus will pan out
To be fair nor does anyone else across the world.
However what they do know is that there is a distinct possiblity that exams in the 'normal' sense won't be able to go ahead next year. So what's the plan if they can't?
They have a full year to prepare for one & that's what governmens are for, to make those types of decisions.
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I can't have with this "unprecedented times, cut them some slack argument".
In 2007, Alastair Darling, the Chancellor took a phone call one evening while out at a working dinner.
It was the head of one of the big banks. He was calling to say that the money markets had seized up. Banks were on the verge of running out of money. There was a very real prospect of the entire banking system collapsing and bringing the entire economy down in a way that would make the COVID lockdown look like a boom.
The banker said they needed Govt bailouts to prevent that from happening.
Darling asked him how many weeks funding they had before they ran out of funds. The banker said, if they were lucky, they might make it to the close of business the next day.
By the next afternoon, Brown and Darling had poured £300bn into keeping the banks afloat.
And the VERY SAME politicians who are now saying the Govt needs cutting some slack spent the next decade throwing bricks at Labour for running up such huge debts.
18 hours, they had, to prevent a scenario where you'd have gone to the cash machine, and computer would've said "No".
Williamson had 5 months to sort out the A-Level problem (and agreed, it WAS a problem). He did precisely what OFQUAL advised him not to do. f**ked it up. Then sacked the Head of OFQUAL. And we are supposed to not criticise him, cos, hindsight...
There are ALWAYS unforeseen crises. Like Wilts says, a big part of Government is dealing with them. Politicians who want power then moan "Oh there's a big crisis! Can't blame me for ballsing up" are not really much use.
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I don’t think anyone is arguing that it was the wrong way to do it, the hard part will be finding the right way if it happens again
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Precisely bpool.
I haven’t seen too many options put forward.