Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: CusworthRovers on January 06, 2011, 12:41:17 pm
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14 facing the axe in the cut backs. Are libraries luxuries that are under used or are they a moral bedrock of educating the local communities
Is this going to seriously hinder education of the Doncaster public. Do people actually still use libraries. You know we live in an Internet world now don't you know. What's in a library these days, years since I've been in. I presume it's more than books.
Those facing the cull with my thoughts are:
Bawtry, not sure if it's used, but Bawtry is out on a limb so an argument to keep if used. Maybe all the people there have internet or have their own private libraries
Bessacarr: Could be shared with Cantley, but is it also close enough to go to the Town one. Also a touch of the Bawtry money here.
Cantley: As above
Carcroft: Not sure if there's one at Skellow. Not sure if it's used.
Conisbrough: Share with Denaby, but another out on a limb. Is it used. Can they go to Mexboro
Denaby: As above
Edenthorpe: Is there one at Kirk Sandall. Again is it used
Intake: Could they get to town instead
Moorends: I thought the one in the Bullring had closed ages ago. Also the one in Thorne next to the Cop shop is shut. Again an area out on a limb. Where are all gods subjects going to go?
Rossington: Another area out on a limb. Where do they go. Is it used. Can people actually read anyway in Rosso.
Scawthorpe: Use Bentley
Sprotboro: Use Town or they have their own libraries
Warmsworth: Use Town or is there one in Balby
Wheatley: Use Town
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Is this common knowledge now?
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Shhhhhhh (sorry a poor Library gag)
It's in the DFP. Rumours have been circulating for a few months now. That's the proposal in a desire to protect front line services. At the end of the day the Local Authority has to make all these millions of pounds worth of cuts.
It's not fully cabinet ratified/passed yet, but that is the proposal. 14 out of 26 libraries to go. Now starts all the backlash no doubt.
It's a tough one for DMBC, as they have to make these cuts forced on them by this coalition. Alternatively, they could instead not cut the grass, hedges, not clean the drains, not do any highways work not develop anything, (infact that's already not happening now to be fair) but we'll have 26 cracking Libraries
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When I was a school kid the Intake library was used mostly for homework/research, I imagine the internet covers that these days.
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Slightly different approach taken here in the Highlands , some smaller libraries were re-located into local primary schools with good effect .
My local library offers free internet access ( you're allowed an hour at a time )
, and is generally a focal point for all village information and is well used .
Although smallish in size , the books are regularly changed and the staff can arrange delivery of a particular book from one of the other local libraries .
I suppose it's all down to the community support
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A couple of years ago I used Sprotborough library for about a week while my internet was down.
I probably saw 4 other people in the whole time I was there.
The Town Centre one is needed, but doubt the others are.
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CusworthRovers wrote:
Moorends: I thought the one in the Bullring had closed ages ago. Also the one in Thorne next to the Cop shop is shut. Again an area out on a limb. Where are all gods subjects going to go?
I believe Thorne Library was re-located to the new doctors surgery, behind where Fieldside School used to be.
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MrFrost wrote:
A couple of years ago I used Sprotborough library for about a week while my internet was down.
I probably saw 4 other people in the whole time I was there.
Perhaps the w**king put them off.
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bobjimwilly wrote:
CusworthRovers wrote:
Moorends: I thought the one in the Bullring had closed ages ago. Also the one in Thorne next to the Cop shop is shut. Again an area out on a limb. Where are all gods subjects going to go?
I believe Thorne Library was re-located to the new doctors surgery, behind where Fieldside School used to be.
Yes it's called the Vermuyden Centre now.
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nightporter wrote:
MrFrost wrote:
A couple of years ago I used Sprotborough library for about a week while my internet was down.
I probably saw 4 other people in the whole time I was there.
Perhaps the wonking put them off.
The reminds me of the time I went to see the duty nurse at my local Docs. I had a right rash on my sparra and it was sore too. The nurse said 'you are going to have to stop w**king sir'. I said 'why?'. She said 'because I'm trying to examine you'
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CusworthRovers wrote:
Bessacarr: Could be shared with Cantley,
Is this not a bit like asking a diabetic to share his needles with Pete Docherty?
Or
Asking Lena Zavaroni to share her dinner with Dawn French?
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Do we really need libraries that much anymore? When I was a kid (primary school age) I got books from the library. In a few years, teachers will be downloading books on to their Ipads.
As many know I finished 4 years at uni in June. I went in the library about 3 times. Uni had most books available online, all journals were available electronically and the internet is far quicker, easier, you don't get fines for being half an hour late handing in, you don't have to pray nobody else has taken the book etc. It's a sad thing and I do actually read, but I can't say I use a library as books are so cheap to buy these days.
They are a luxury really and don't get used much, a sign of the changing times for sure as people age, less people will use libraries, more will use technology.
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big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:
Do we really need libraries that much anymore? When I was a kid (primary school age) I got books from the library. In a few years, teachers will be downloading books on to their Ipads.
As many know I finished 4 years at uni in June. I went in the library about 3 times. Uni had most books available online, all journals were available electronically and the internet is far quicker, easier, you don't get fines for being half an hour late handing in, you don't have to pray nobody else has taken the book etc. It's a sad thing and I do actually read, but I can't say I use a library as books are so cheap to buy these days.
They are a luxury really and don't get used much, a sign of the changing times for sure as people age, less people will use libraries, more will use technology.
All well and good if technology has made libraries obselete.But the reason for closures are clearly financial.Ask youself why kids are not given free access to the internet which i seem to remember was propsed by the last government.A library is also a community centre for other services were people can meet particularly the elderly and provides an alternative to the isolation of the IT world.I think this is another attack on meritocracy and will provide further attacks on working class kids
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I don't disagree in the lack of internet in the home, however, how many can't afford basic internet? Kids can get grants, laptops from school etc and can still visit school libraries etc. You say it's an issue, but I've visited the library here where I live a few times this year, each time I was the only one in it - that in itself tells its own story. If we have the choice between that and saving money elsewhere, I'm sorry but the library just isn't the priority.
We'll still have them though just not as many. The OAPS still have plenty of places. Look at Edenthorpe as an example, a library then two buildings down a community centre, do we really need both? The library in Doncaster town centre will remain and all OAPS can get there for free so it isn't a major issue in that respect.
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Whilst I don't disagree with some of what you said BFYP it's simply not true that \"all OAPs can get there...\" Those that are relatively infirm, those that have no confidence, those that are frightened of modern yoof - none of those will go to the twon centre instead of their local library. My Mother is a good example. She simply can't do the travel. she can toddle the few yards to her local library, but there's no way she can waddle along to the bus stop, climb the steps into the thing, sit there, do all that in reverse to get off, get to the library - and then do it all again to get home again. It's physically beyond her. And there's plenty in that condition.
Another point I don't agree with - but then I'm a fuddy duddy. \"(Books) are a luxury really and don't get used much\". I read books every single day of my life. I buy books on an awful lot of those days too. Books are the symbol of civilisation to me. They mean that not only can society afford the leisure time for books of learning, adventure, mystery, invention and everything else be written, but it also means these things are there, in your own room, capable of being carried from room to room, from the car to the hotel and into bed at night (and try that with a laptop!) They don't run the risk of viruses wrecking them, of the operating system crashing, of the electronics packing up. They last. They are physical. The smell and feel and look of some of them is an almost orgiastic pleasure all by itself. They are learning, wisdom, adventure and escapism personified. I love books. I own thousands of the things. I can only think of one or two things/people in the whole world that I love more.
But then, I guess I'm of the last generation that will ever think that way...
BobG
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Forgive me for sounding a tad drama queenish here, but this news is truly shocking.
This is how empires and civilisations collapse. When ignorance, self interested greed and lack of leadership allows us to think that closing libraries isn't really important, then we really are on the slippery slope.
If this was in isolation, then it might be less important. Add it to a culture that has just accepted that the state has no role to play in providing University level education and the implications are terrifying.
Future historians will tear out their hair over this age. We want plasma screen TVs, cock-replacement 4x4s, foreign holidays and laminate floors. We think that Government's role is to keep our taxes low so that we can fritter our lives away on this shit. And the consequences are library closures and higher education becoming the preserve of the rich, not the able.
f**king madness. And madness that will have deeply serious long term consequences.
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I bloody love you Billy :) I do. I wish I'd written that.
Post of the month that.
BobG
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It's Wall-E time.
My lad was due to start his work experience from school at Bentley library a few days ago but when he got there it was closed due to a meeting about possible closures.
It'll probably be turned into a juice bar or something really useful like that.
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Where I live the library is the center of the community. They have concerts there on the lawn in the summer and everyone knows everybody else (which of course is not always a good thing), but it's where you run into your neighbors and friends. Taking books out of the library is just something I do, weekly, and I can't imagine what it would be like without it. I thought about a Kindle for Christmas, but realized that part of the reason I like to read is because I like holding the books!! I like looking through the shelves, picking them up and even paying the odd overdue fine. So I feel for you if they close or consolidate some of your libraries, as it's so much more than books. But sadly I think they may go the way that newspapers are going and I like reading real newspapers as well, as I don't generally like their formats on line.
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Viking Don wrote:
It'll probably be turned into a juice bar or something really useful like that.
He'll be fine then. Can he rollerskate?
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I can't help but think with the advent of the internet and now e-readers and iPads that the traditional library has been under threat for a while. Most everything a library offers can be found online now, books, news, maps, reference, films and music.
But I'm sad to read of these proposals, I too feel more comfortable reading off paper and the library still does have a role to play in the community. Their role needs to change, I think the popularity of the internet terminals in our libraries shows the way. They probably have to become more like internet cafes than they have already. More spaces for comfy furniture and the inevitable coffee franchise to help promote and pay for it.
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Whilst BST may have a point that I share re education and the working class.....I also feel the Libraries are on borrowed time.
A very strong argument for 'no longer fit for purpose' with the advent of technology. It was the same when the seed drill and the spinning jenny were introduced.
Look at all the shops/pubs closing and it will get worse, until these are virtually things of the past. Almost everything is available from the comfort of your own home, cheaper and efficiently. It will not be just pubs and shops neither.
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I use the the music library in town once a fortnight and take out 8 cd's at a time. I also go to several local history talks a year. Libraries are not just about books but a whole field of information that should not be just tossed aside as a cost cutting meassure. Once gone they wil never return.
Sign every petition you see and march in the streets if needed. Before we know it the youth clubs, community centres will all go the same way.
My parent who are in there late 70's also use the library in Intake every week and as Bob mentioned older folk either don't want to go into town or are unable.
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CusworthRovers wrote:
Whilst BST may have a point that I share re education and the working class.....I also feel the Libraries are on borrowed time.
A very strong argument for 'no longer fit for purpose' with the advent of technology. It was the same when the seed drill and the spinning jenny were introduced.
Look at all the shops/pubs closing and it will get worse, until these are virtually things of the past. Almost everything is available from the comfort of your own home, cheaper and efficiently. It will not be just pubs and shops neither.
And THAT Cussy is precisely the issue. This is NOT about cheapness and efficiency.
Libraries are a statement of civic collectivity. They offer information services to EVERYONE regardless of ability to pay. They are paid for by the collective, NOT by the individual
We have now had the thick end of half a century of that collective principle being eroded, and replaced by a philosophy that says, if you want it, YOU, INDIVIDUALLY pay for it.
Information IS available on the internet, but it has to be paid for. Where are the free novels that you can (legally) download in the way that you can (legally) borrow them from libraries?
It is all about the commercialisation of information, and the bit-by-bit destruction of the principle that there are some things that SOCIETY pays for, and that we all pay taxes to fund.
This bunch of cnuts in power at the moment are driving through a political revolution. They are using the fig leaf of the deficit to justify a generational shift from collective, tax-funded provision of services, to indivdiual paid for services. It's happening right under our noses and no fcuker seems to care about it. Removing government funding for almost all University courses and telling people to pay for it themselves is one aspect. Closing down libraries is another.
And you think it will stop there? What about the long-term future for the NHS? The BBC? Think about it.
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absolute nail on the head billy,a lot of elderly people use the library.will be a sad loss especialy to this age group.
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In theory you can order any book, CD or DVD from the library, if that's the case why shouldn't the library offer an online service? Well there is a slight problem that would ruin the current business model for the publishing industries.
Then again it's a right can of worms, I suppose I'm not the only person who has ripped borrowed library CDs. And whether business likes it or not they can't prevent these products becoming freely available anyway and there are innumerable books legally available free online, including most of the classics. And if people continue to stop using the libraries because there are means to get whatever they want from the web anyway, should we continue to fund empty libraries?
Whatever I don't think the publishing industry has started to come to terms with the new world they are in yet. The newspapers haven't found a solution, Murdoch is desperate to monetise Times online but it doesn't look to be working. It looks bleak for HMV, Blockbusters perhaps Waterstones will go the same way, perhaps libraries too.
Maybe an online library service isn't a bad idea. The taxpayer globally funding all forms of electronic publishing, that's certainly a radical solution to piracy.
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It makes you realise what the thinking behind Cameron's baby of the 'Big Society' is. He lives and breathes this ideology, so says himself and wants it indoctrinated into our modern society.
He (and this is from his speech) wants communities to be empowered to run/fund their local structures ie LIBRARIES, Post Offices, Local Services, buildings, transport schemes, Community Centres.
Seems ironic, that these are the very things he has smashed in the current cuts. He may be forcing the communities to get off their arses and run these Libraries, PO's etc ie do something locally themselves that is locally funded......or he has seriously misjudged the British public, in that they will not get off their arses and do anything about it. Instead they will do without or turn to the internet, crime or other means. Either way Cammo, Gidders and the elite are not paying for it.
Personally I don't think the Big Society is going to happen this way, and will have the opposite effect. History will tell you that Community Spirit is built around a happy community ie full employment, quality schools, good local services from local government.
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Allow me to take you for a spin forward 6 months in my time machine (some bloke called Wells mentioned one in a book I got out of Rosso library when I was 10 I think)....
As councils up and down the land prepare to shed thousands of workers, just consider the timeline of events. Most councils will be doing what the local ones are doing, and assessing the voluntary redundancy applications, then determining which of them they can afford (both in terms of financial cost and loss of skills) to let go, then the compulsary redundancies in areas which make losses in delivering key public services, then the bits of bone which have to be cut to come in under budget, as there is no meat left to cut, let alone fat. Come the end of MArch this will have been done in many cases, with staff on three months notice....
June should be very interesting. Our summer of discontent? I can see high levels of civil unrest, as the big chunk of income disappearing from community purses has its knock on effect in local businesses.
Imagine a cross between the student riots and the french picket lines and you wont be a million miles out. I last protested on the Poll Tax introduction, so coming out of retirement could be an option....
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It's OK though mate, as the Big Society will rally round and take care of local services on a voluntary basis.
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You know what's really scary? I live in the soft underbelly of England. And no bugger cares! Not one. You start a conversation something to do with the subject, and you can actually see the eyes glazing over. It's a nice enough area this. Pretty. Affluent. Well maintained. Relatively little crime. Relatively little unemployment (spot the correlation...) But as a sample of the attitudes, values and beliefs of middle class England, it scares me shitless.
BobG
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RobTheRover wrote:
Allow me to take you for a spin forward 6 months in my time machine (some bloke called Wells mentioned one in a book I got out of Rosso library when I was 10 I think)....
As councils up and down the land prepare to shed thousands of workers, just consider the timeline of events. Most councils will be doing what the local ones are doing, and assessing the voluntary redundancy applications, then determining which of them they can afford (both in terms of financial cost and loss of skills) to let go, then the compulsary redundancies in areas which make losses in delivering key public services, then the bits of bone which have to be cut to come in under budget, as there is no meat left to cut, let alone fat. Come the end of MArch this will have been done in many cases, with staff on three months notice....
June should be very interesting. Our summer of discontent? I can see high levels of civil unrest, as the big chunk of income disappearing from community purses has its knock on effect in local businesses.
Imagine a cross between the student riots and the french picket lines and you wont be a million miles out. I last protested on the Poll Tax introduction, so coming out of retirement could be an option....
Amen to that Rob. There's a warm up on the 26th March if you fancy it. Surely its worth missing Watford for the cause! Don't be surprised if there's a million march on Hyde Park on the 26th because Unite, my union have plans to offer members free transport in our region, which I have no doubt will be offered country wide. There's potentially 1.2 million from one union! And lets be clear about this, it's not going to take something bigger than the Poll Tax demo to bring this sham government down. Its ours for the taking and we haven't even begun.
But the real problem we face is to get Labour to not cut when they get in power but to chase the lost revenue off the real scroungers in this, the filthy rich and big business. The way the rich find loopholes to avoid paying tax is a disgrace and has to be stopped. I mean if our own chancellor can avoid paying £1.6 million then are we going to sit idly by and let this happen? Only people power can stop this.
BobG has a bit tongue in cheek suggested a revolution a few times on this forum and in my opinion he is cock on. These are our public services and we're still going to pay for them through our taxes even though they are being thrown on a big blue bonfire in the coming months and years. Only a revolution (of sorts!)can stop this. A revolution in the form of an overthrown government and a demand on Labour to turn left again to govern in the interests of its core voters, the working class. Time to get the railways, gas, leccy, ect back under the state and run for the needs of the people who use it instead of being run in the interests of share holders ans executives, subsidised by progressive taxation of the rich and big business. We cannot idly sit by and let the banks off the hook either. They should pay back every penny plus interest, even if it takes 100 years.
HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE COMRADES.
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BillyStubbsTears wrote:
CusworthRovers wrote:
Whilst BST may have a point that I share re education and the working class.....I also feel the Libraries are on borrowed time.
A very strong argument for 'no longer fit for purpose' with the advent of technology. It was the same when the seed drill and the spinning jenny were introduced.
Look at all the shops/pubs closing and it will get worse, until these are virtually things of the past. Almost everything is available from the comfort of your own home, cheaper and efficiently. It will not be just pubs and shops neither.
And THAT Cussy is precisely the issue. This is NOT about cheapness and efficiency.
Libraries are a statement of civic collectivity. They offer information services to EVERYONE regardless of ability to pay. They are paid for by the collective, NOT by the individual
We have now had the thick end of half a century of that collective principle being eroded, and replaced by a philosophy that says, if you want it, YOU, INDIVIDUALLY pay for it.
Information IS available on the internet, but it has to be paid for. Where are the free novels that you can (legally) download in the way that you can (legally) borrow them from libraries?
It is all about the commercialisation of information, and the bit-by-bit destruction of the principle that there are some things that SOCIETY pays for, and that we all pay taxes to fund.
This bunch of cnuts in power at the moment are driving through a political revolution. They are using the fig leaf of the deficit to justify a generational shift from collective, tax-funded provision of services, to indivdiual paid for services. It's happening right under our noses and no fcuker seems to care about it. Removing government funding for almost all University courses and telling people to pay for it themselves is one aspect. Closing down libraries is another.
And you think it will stop there? What about the long-term future for the NHS? The BBC? Think about it.
Amen to this an all!
If Cameron and Gideon want a revolution then they can f**king have one.
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I don't know it any of you were at the Coalition of resistance meeting with Tony Benn in Donny in October but a library campaigner and author Alan Gibbons gave an excellent speech about how we should defend libraries amongst other things. Bang on all the way through and very funny in parts, its well worth 10 minutes of your time. His speech starts from 3 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQpv13zXn5E
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Thanks for the link Jon. I liked that.
Bob
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jonrover wrote:
Amen to that Rob. There's a warm up on the 26th March if you fancy it. Surely its worth missing Watford for the cause!
Is that 26th February Jon?
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Just checked - it is 26th March, but we've no game that day, presumably an international break (Watford is 26th Feb)
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Muttley wrote:
Just checked - it is 26th March, but we've no game that day, presumably an international break (Watford is 26th Feb)
Sorry, couldn't be arsed to check...sensimilla!
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Maybe something like this should be arranged...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-12204369
:)
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Funnily enough there's been a couple of protests already outside libraries in Cantley and that hotbed of Political unrest...Bawtry
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The Mayor`s never taken a book out of a library, so there you have it, that`s why the library`s are closing, the Mayor doesn`t use them, same as the tree felling on the racecourse, the Mayor likes horse racing, so the tree`s had to come down!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/sheffield/hi/people_and_places/newsid_9386000/9386288.stm
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So he's never left the UK.
He's never borrowed a book from a library.
Could he possibly be more of an embarrassing professional Yorkshireman if he tried?
He's been described on the English Democrats website as a \"common-sense\" mayor.
As none other than Albert Einstein once said, \"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.\"
Maybe if the mayor travelled a bit and read a bit he might be a bit less of an ignorant bigot.
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I very very very stupidly voted for this idiot which I am now more then ashamed of doing! The bloke is a grade A idiot! I have signed two petitions so far in regard to this.
My local Library Edenthorpe is one on the hot list for closure to which I take my two young children to regularly and to which they love going to.
Am I know expected to take my children to the town centre one, having to either get the bus into town or be driven rather then walking with my children to the local one, not only educating them with the books in there but also giving them exercise in the process of taking them there!!
Also my wife works in Intake and runs childrens clubs at the Intake library which is also on this list to be shut!
My wifes Grandparents also use this library, are they now expected to go to the town centre library rather then be involved in the community at their local library?
This country is going backwards, it will only get worse with these Tory b@stards in charge.
Like Rob says give it another 4-5 months and this town will be well and truely up the shitter while Cam and Gideon are rubbing their hands together in their Ivory towers!!
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I understand Denaby is on the hit list an area that was identified as an EPA (educational priority area) back in 1968.So much for parity of esteem.Its about time the satelite towns around the dearne valley brought back the urban council as i for one am sick of getting the mushroom treatment from bent politicians in Donny,Barnsley and Rotherham who tink they can treat our people like lepours and dump all there problems on us.
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Well its got the go ahead!! Absolute disgrace, Peter Davies and his cronies should be truely ashamed of themselves!! I hate this town and I hate this country!!
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Just seen Davies on the BBC news, he really doesn't give a flying fook about the library and what the people really wants does he?
I really hope the people of Donny can rally round to save the libary..
On a much smaller scale we have a community run library in Heacham.. It really does work
(Excuse all the reallys I've had a glass of wine and am feeling suprisingly mellow but a trifle illiterate)... :blush:
He comes across as a t**t tbh. Peter Davies I mean.
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Utter utter disgrace.
I used to love going to Thorne library as a kid. Not only to get books out but I enjoyed the feel of the place, it had soul.
I know Thorne has a new library so should be fairly \"safe\". But how can we begin to deny our kids the joys we had? I thought the governments aim was to increase childhood literacy.
To be honest I am feckin livid for the people of Donny but I guess the majority who voted for your mayor wont give a flying f as long as immigration is controlled and gay marches are banned. Me thinks the priorities are all so wrong.
As one of my favourite bands wrote
Libraries gave us power
Then work came and made us free
But what price now for a shallow piece of dignity