Local Elections And Hartlepool

[BillyStubbsTears]

From a purely non political point of view, it isn’t too long ago that some posters on here were pontificating that Starmer was the man who would lead the Labour Party to a wonderful victory.
It would appear that might not be happening now.

Clearly in Starmer's case he promised many things , build on the narrative of a more fairer society which was Corbyn's tune but with a more credible face to attain the Labour leadership .

Only to become leader then turn the other way towards the Blair flavour of the Labour Party .

More fool me for thinking this London based pro EU tw@t was anything other than what he really is .

I won't be making the same mistake twice .

This is why it may well be a hopeless case.

Of COURSE Starmer has to appeal to both the Left and the centrist wings of the Labour party. Labour doesn't have a hope in hell of winning power if he doesn't. It's lazy nonsense to say Starmer is only interested in one wing or the other.

It's lazy from the Left because they ignore the fact that his domestic economic policies are very similar to Corbyn's. What he's having to do is distance himself from the image of Corbynism because that put off so many of the people that Labour must attract if it is going to be anything more than a protest party.

Your comment on principles is the key. Have principles. Vote for a party that only gives you exactly what you want. And the result will be that you give the victory to the very people you claim to be the opposite of what you want. In a First Past the Post system, voting on principle is an indulgence. A childish one.

I keep pointing out the example of Biden. The Sanders supporters disliked him because he didn't have the firey left wing rhetoric that enthused them. But he won. By attracting more than just the left wing fringe. And look what he is doing now he has won.

Starmer could do that. But not if the Left digs its heels in and refuses to vote for him. And if he appeals only to the Left, he won't win.

It is so bloody obvious, but it needs hard headed thinking, not immature idealism. If 10-20% of Labour supporters polish their consciences and refuse to vote for him, they are the ones who will cement Johnson in power for a decade. Just like they did when they refused to vote for Brown.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And for the record, I want rid of the FPTP system. It's decades out of date and I agree that it works against people being able to vote on principle. I WANT people to be able to vote on principle. But to do so in the current system is stupid.

[selby]

     Stabber Starmer, more edges than a broken p*ss pot.

[wilts rover]

That is a false comparison Billy.

Biden won primarily beacuse 10's of thousands of Sanders supporters went out and campaigned for him, because Biden and his team listened to and brought onboard, Sanders, AOC and many other prominent left-wing figures. In that way Biden was a uniting figure.

Starmer, or to be more accurate the people around him have done the opposite. They have litterally expelled prominent left-wing figures and activisits from the leadership team and party and hired ex-Mossad agents and Peter Mandelesson. Who is that going to unite?

Labour have increased their vote once this century, Corbyn in 2017. That's the base on which he needs to build, because if he doesn't it will drift away as the polls are showing.

[DonnyOsmond]

     Stabber Starmer, more edges than a broken p*ss pot.

Is there a reason why you call him Stabber or are you just a crackhead?

[wilts rover]

     Stabber Starmer, more edges than a broken p*ss pot.

Said an Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson supporter...

[SydneyRover]

     Stabber Starmer, more edges than a broken p*ss pot.

Don't forget this is what they think and presumably some of those that vote for them, otherwise why would they?

''British workers 'among worst idlers', suggest Tory MPs''

''British workers are "among the worst idlers in the world", a group of Conservative MPs has claimed''

''The UK "rewards laziness", does not encourage risk-taking and must strive to emulate the work ethic and low-tax culture in parts of Asia, the five MPs argue in a book due out next month.

The authors include Elizabeth Truss and Dominic Raab, both tipped to be promoted in a future reshuffle.

"Too many people in Britain prefer a lie-in to hard work," they argue.

The other contributors to Britannia Unchained are Priti Patel, Chris Skidmore and Kwasi Kwarteng, influential members of the "class of 2010" - MPs elected to Parliament at the last election''

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-19300051

and this doesn't include what johnson thinks.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.
In the US, Sanders showed leadership to his supporters by embracing Biden.

In the UK, following Starmer being elected, we had months of surly silence from the Corbyn team and outright opposition from Corbynista activists, followed by Corbyn and Long-Bailey pouring petrol on the anti-Semitism issue that has done so much damage to Labour's standing.

You say Starmer has not reached out to the Left. He put Long-Bailey in his Shadow Cabinet. What is he then to do when she re-tweets an anti-Semitic (and factually incorrect) trope and refuses to apologise? Pat her on the back and say "you carry on"?

You reckon the committed Corbynistas actually want Starmer to succeed? Because from my viewpoint, all I see is them wanting to continue the internal fighting. Just as the far Left always did.

[DonnyOsmond]

Wilts.
In the US, Sanders showed leadership to his supporters by embracing Biden.

In the UK, following Starmer being elected, we had months of surly silence from the Corbyn team and outright opposition from Corbynista activists, followed by Corbyn and Long-Bailey pouring petrol on the anti-Semitism issue that has done so much damage to Labour's standing.

You say Starmer has not reached out to the Left. He put Long-Bailey in his Shadow Cabinet. What is he then to do when she re-tweets an anti-Semitic (and factually incorrect) trope and refuses to apologise? Pat her on the back and say "you carry on"?

You reckon the committed Corbynistas actually want Starmer to succeed? Because from my viewpoint, all I see is them wanting to continue the internal fighting. Just as the far Left always did.

Listen to yourself. A report was created about infighting and how a number of MPs in the center of the party wanted to ruin the parties chances at an election to try and get rid of Corbyn. All you're doing is putting the blame continuously at the left.

[selby]

    A big moment for the Labour party this byelection.

[wilts rover]

Wilts.
In the US, Sanders showed leadership to his supporters by embracing Biden.

In the UK, following Starmer being elected, we had months of surly silence from the Corbyn team and outright opposition from Corbynista activists, followed by Corbyn and Long-Bailey pouring petrol on the anti-Semitism issue that has done so much damage to Labour's standing.

You say Starmer has not reached out to the Left. He put Long-Bailey in his Shadow Cabinet. What is he then to do when she re-tweets an anti-Semitic (and factually incorrect) trope and refuses to apologise? Pat her on the back and say "you carry on"?

You reckon the committed Corbynistas actually want Starmer to succeed? Because from my viewpoint, all I see is them wanting to continue the internal fighting. Just as the far Left always did.

As I wrote above it is up to the leadership to lead and be inclusive. Unfortuantely you sum up their attitude of distain and 'take it or leave it'. The recent polling tells us how well that is going.

[MachoMadness]

Wilts.
In the US, Sanders showed leadership to his supporters by embracing Biden.

In the UK, following Starmer being elected, we had months of surly silence from the Corbyn team and outright opposition from Corbynista activists, followed by Corbyn and Long-Bailey pouring petrol on the anti-Semitism issue that has done so much damage to Labour's standing.

You say Starmer has not reached out to the Left. He put Long-Bailey in his Shadow Cabinet. What is he then to do when she re-tweets an anti-Semitic (and factually incorrect) trope and refuses to apologise? Pat her on the back and say "you carry on"?

You reckon the committed Corbynistas actually want Starmer to succeed? Because from my viewpoint, all I see is them wanting to continue the internal fighting. Just as the far Left always did.

Listen to yourself. A report was created about infighting and how a number of MPs in the center of the party wanted to ruin the parties chances at an election to try and get rid of Corbyn. All you're doing is putting the blame continuously at the left.

It's always the left. Even now, when the left have been purged from every position of influence in the party and Peter f**king Mandelson is at the top table, it's the fault of Leninlover69 on twitter that labour are 14 points behind.

[tyke1962]

There seems to me to be an emerging pattern from those to the right of my traditional left values that they actually know better than the electorate .

Back our stance and we will keep the Tories out of government .

They may well have been on to something in 1997 but the truth is the UK is a totally different country to what it was back then so going to the back catalogue is perhaps massively flawed .

What seems to have escaped the centre of the Labour Party is the fact despite 13 years of government they didn't actually change anything from the Thatcher years .

It's one thing to have power and quite another to do something with it .

It's probably far from wise to vote Tory at the best of times but when the alternative is hardly inspiring you can understand the division .

The truth in my opinion is that the centre of the Labour Party just don't want a Tory government , that's it in a nutshell , nothing else to see really .

The left of the party or at least the left of my background actually want to change things .

Yes we are fecking horrible when you can't catch your tube train to work because we are on strike or vote to leave the neoliberal EU .

Maybe just maybe we are on the right side of horrible and the centre simply wants a government that isn't Tory but may as well be if the truth be told and the easier ride because the red rosette is apparently more righteous than a blue one .

You have to crack eggs to make an omelette its unlikely the centre of the Labour Party even have a box of eggs in their kitchen .

What's ever been won for working people in this country came from where exactly ? .

It wasn't from the likes of Starmer or Mandelson that I do know .

With the times we currently live in , the centre of the Labour Party may as well move over to the Tory benchess for what good they are .

That's a solid fact .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.

You have totally lost me now.

You talk about "the Left of the party".

But you hated Corbyn.

Labour's economic policies have been consistent for more than 10 years, and have been aimed at addressing precisely the problems that both you and I want to address.

But whichever Labour leader puts them forward, you complain that it's not right.

What exactly DO you want?

[SydneyRover]

This is what I wrote and then looked for a more informed opinion. It's not what the problems are but how they are resolved.

Until the conundrum of left voters voting for far right immigration policy and centre, centre right nationalism I'm not sure how the impasse will be resolved because the tory party and the media will exploit it as they have done quite successfully to damage labour. Corbyn whom I supported in spirit had plenty of time at the helm to get the party in order but went mia at crucial moments, then when it came to the most crucial item on the agenda brexit he couldn't unite the party and washed his hands of it. This was not a brilliant display of leadership, as leader he needed to grasp the nettle and resolve it one way or another.

''How Labour went from near-breakthrough in 2017 to disaster in 2019''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/16/labour-2017-2019-corbyn-brexit-election

[tyke1962]

Tyke.

You have totally lost me now.

You talk about "the Left of the party".

But you hated Corbyn.

Labour's economic policies have been consistent for more than 10 years, and have been aimed at addressing precisely the problems that both you and I want to address.

But whichever Labour leader puts them forward, you complain that it's not right.

What exactly DO you want?

Billy I don't believe I've ever stated that I hate Corbyn .

My take on the man is this ,

I thought he genuinely cared about working people in this country and wanted to improve lives through a more fairer society .

He also energised young people in the country and increased the Labour membership massively on a left wing ticket .

The way he was hounded in the media because he wanted to change things was a disgrace .

Worse than that the centre of the Labour Party were part of it and plotted against him .

This was a man who won two Labour leadership contests convincingly by democratic means .

That said the man was weak and he was a coward which isn't exactly leadership material with some pretty questionable links to some very unsavoury people .

His intentions were sound but as a leader he was a disaster .

[Hounslowrover]

So, what we have is Labour supporters arguing, Tories don't argue, just accept and therefore win elections. From my point of view as a union and Labour Party member, it's often the left who want to be pure and end up sacrificing the chances of winning elections by not accepting what you need to do to be in power.

[Ldr]

Never interrupt your enemy when he's making mistakes - Napoleon Bonepart

[drfchound]

Never interrupt your enemy when he's making mistakes - Napoleon Bonepart

For goodness sake, don’t bring Napoleon into the discussion mate.

[Not Now Kato]

Never interrupt your enemy when he's making mistakes - Napoleon Bonepart

For goodness sake, don’t bring Napoleon into the discussion mate.

Indeed. After all, things didn't work out to we'll for him did they?

[selby]

  No they didn't Kato and that was because he was trying to force Europe on us.

[SydneyRover]

like William the Conqueror selby?

[selby]

  Helped very much by Tostig and the Vikings at Stamford Bridge Syd, It might not have turned out so great without that little shin dig, about the last war the French won that one, Gerry usually include them in their tour of Europe when they strop about every few years.

[Not Now Kato]

  No they didn't Kato and that was because he was trying to force Europe on us.

It's quite clear you didn't study history at all at school selby! (or afterwards it seems).

[wilts rover]

  No they didn't Kato and that was because he was trying to force Europe on us.

Someone bokmark this post quickly in which Selby celebrates being saved by the Germans...

[drfchound]

  No they didn't Kato and that was because he was trying to force Europe on us.

like William the Conqueror selby?

And Captain Cook.

[selby]

  Don't rush the typing with excitement Wilts, what is a bokmark?

[drfchound]

It sounds a bit South African.

[BillyStubbsTears]

When I was in Cape Town I few years ago, I couldn't help sniggering at the road sign for Wattercant.

You have to say it with a SA accent.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What was it an old Tory PM said when asked what were the most difficult things for politicians to deal with?

"Events, dear boy, events"

Tories have dropped 5% in the latest poll, following recent "events" about sleaze. And this is before the Cummings meltdown and the "bodies" quote story.

Events can change things overnight in politics.