Brexit deal

[GazLaz]

If there was a referendum tomorrow remain would be 70%.

[Donnywolf]

That literally is democracy though...?

Like keep voting until we get the 'right' result? This is 1984.

We got the right result at the 2017 General Election, didn't we? You know, the vote we had after the referendum?

But a general election is every five years at least. How many referendums will we be having?

Doesn't matter. Each electiop supercedes the previous one, regardless of the length of time between them. That makes the 2017 election more relevant than any before it.

So if there was another referendum and remain won by 51% to 49% what would that tell us and where would we go from there?

We would say thats 2 - 1 to Remain - 1975 by a MASSIVE Majority of33% and 2019 by 2% - against 4 % to Leave in 2016 Simples !

[drfchound]

Or more controversially, if the leave voters won again, where would we be then.
In exactly the same place as we are now?

[IDM]

Thing is, next referendum can actually offer a clear view of what a leave vote will mean.. And if that means a bigger leave majority so be it..

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Thing is, next referendum can actually offer a clear view of what a leave vote will mean.. Andy if that means a bigger leave majority so be it..

But it can't because it is still not clear is it? The failure is on politicians to correctly set that up.

[IDM]

Clearer than in 2016 at least..

[BillyStubbsTears]

Don't know how many times I have to point this out.

In 2016, we didn't know what Leave meant. Folk might say they did, but the changes of stance by the main Leave spokespeople SINCE that vote proves we didn't. Farage was still talking about a Norway deal Leave six months after the vote. Now he's saying that would be a betrayal.

So, now we know in detail what the Leave options really look like, how can having another vote be called undemocratic.

If ANY specific form of Leave wins that vote, that's the issue finished.

[auckleyflyer]

Changed my mind on this but remain must beat deal/no deal combined?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Auckley.

That's easily accommodated. You have a single transferrable vote as I've posted on here several times.

Easy. Fair. Democratic.

[selby]

  If there was a second vote, what can the remain side bring to the table that they have not already used.
  The leave side will start their own  project fear about remaining now we have lost credibility and influence in Brussels. They will project us as a laughing stock to the rest of Europe, Europe will make us join the euro as punishment and a condition of staying in, we will have to accept a european army air force etc. centralised taxes.
   If a quick new referendum is possible then yes I can see a remain vote, the longer the period for the vote to take place the more chance of the same result of an out vote is possible, the argument is all one way at the moment, that would change dramatically before another referendum.

[IDM]

You can fight against the system from inside the club..

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby

Keep up.

The EU has said that we can rescind A50 and carry on under our current membership terms. There is no possibility whatsoever of us being strong armed into the Euro, EU army, harmonised taxes or anything of the sort. If there was, then I would be supporting leaving.

It's rubbish like this being peddled that makes a mockery of debate and democratic decisions.

[SydneyRover]

  If there was a second vote, what can the remain side bring to the table that they have not already used.
  The leave side will start their own  project fear about remaining now we have lost credibility and influence in Brussels. They will project us as a laughing stock to the rest of Europe, Europe will make us join the euro as punishment and a condition of staying in, we will have to accept a european army air force etc. centralised taxes.
   If a quick new referendum is possible then yes I can see a remain vote, the longer the period for the vote to take place the more chance of the same result of an out vote is possible, the argument is all one way at the moment, that would change dramatically before another referendum.

Selby, all those things the pro-europe band have been saying will still stand depending on what (if allowed to vote on in their own country) is proposed and voted for. The more encompassing eg the more we stay the same the better off the majority will be.

Project leave are the ones that have lost all credibility, not the leave voters as we have established they were sold a dummy. The only way Britain will be a laughing stock is if we listen to the likes of Fargo, Bojo, and Magoo and vote to leave.

Europe cannot make us do anything we do not wish to do, but if we wish to be part of the most prosperous dynamic region in the world then we will have to comply with the conditions and agreements as all the other 27 countries do, and take part in formulating those agreements.

'The EU does not have a direct role in raising taxes or setting tax rates. The amount of tax you pay is decided by your government, not the EU.''

https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/taxation_en

The implementation of the CSDP involves the deployment of military or civilian missions for peace-keeping, conflict prevention and strengthening international security in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Charter. Military missions are carried out by EU forces established with contributions from the member states' armed forces. The CSDP also entails collective self-defence amongst member states[d] as well as a Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) in which 25 of the 28 national armed forces pursue structural integration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Security_and_Defence_Policy

[drfchound]

Just a thought........as this Brexit situation is the most important thing for us in donkeys years, wouldn’t it be good if the best brains from all parties got their heads together and sorted out what is really best for the uk and its people.

They could go back to trying to put each other down and score points off each other once Brexit, or remain, had been sorted out so the best interests of us all had been dealt with.

Now that would show the EU people that we really mean business and we wouldn’t be seen to be a laughing stock.

[wilts rover]

In addition to that Sydney the UK have actually asked to be part of a new European Intervention Initiative as the government fears our security will be weaker after Brexit.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/defence-and-security/news/nine-european-countries-to-formalise-eu-defence-force-plan/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/25/nine-eu-states-to-sign-off-on-joint-military-intervention-force

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just a thought........as this Brexit situation is the most important thing for us in donkeys years, wouldn’t it be good if the best brains from all parties got their heads together and sorted out what is really best for the uk and its people.

They could go back to trying to put each other down and score points off each other once Brexit, or remain, had been sorted out so the best interests of us all had been dealt with.

Now that would show the EU people that we really mean business and we wouldn’t be seen to be a laughing stock.

That's fine Hound, but I'm not sure who would be the best brains the Tory party could offer.

The Cabinet has been party to two years of negotiations that led to a deal that no one wants.

The ERG have repeatedly belittled any analysis that independent experts have put out, claimed that there are magic fairy dust solutions to the NI border issues and said that cutting deals with Kenya and Oklahoma will be the way forward after we make it harder for us to do business with half a billion of the richest people on earth on our doorstep.

The basic problem is that both party leaders and their advisers are using the issue as a stick with which to defeat the other side. There ARE sensible heads on both sides (Grieve is one on the Tory side who has consistently talked sense and also tried to raise the issue of Russian interference in the ballot, that both main party leaders refuse to discuss). But they are marginalised figures within their own parties with no power to influence the debate significantly.

We are dreadfully lacking statesmen. We have a generation of 3rd rate political pygmies in charge. 

[SydneyRover]

In addition to that Sydney the UK have actually asked to be part of a new European Intervention Initiative as the government fears our security will be weaker after Brexit.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/defence-and-security/news/nine-european-countries-to-formalise-eu-defence-force-plan/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/25/nine-eu-states-to-sign-off-on-joint-military-intervention-force
[/quote:
Wilts, the weird thing about brexit that is either not understood or ignored is that we cannot as a nation live in isolation to Europe, most of what the brexit tribe are clamouring against will be re-negotiated with other countries over time therefore nullifying most of what they now want (or don't want) There will be some trade negotiations with countries outside the EU that will favour us but the majority cannot replace what we already have, and nothing will make up for the loss to the economy experienced to this point and to when, if ever Britain regains some sort of balance and trade deals with the rest of the world, that boat has sailed, 10 or more years of a reduced economy.

Having joint forces across Europe make economic sense as well as political sense.

[drfchound]

Just a thought........as this Brexit situation is the most important thing for us in donkeys years, wouldn’t it be good if the best brains from all parties got their heads together and sorted out what is really best for the uk and its people.

They could go back to trying to put each other down and score points off each other once Brexit, or remain, had been sorted out so the best interests of us all had been dealt with.

Now that would show the EU people that we really mean business and we wouldn’t be seen to be a laughing stock.

That's fine Hound, but I'm not sure who would be the best brains the Tory party could offer.

The Cabinet has been party to two years of negotiations that led to a deal that no one wants.

The ERG have repeatedly belittled any analysis that independent experts have put out, claimed that there are magic fairy dust solutions to the NI border issues and said that cutting deals with Kenya and Oklahoma will be the way forward after we make it harder for us to do business with half a billion of the richest people on earth on our doorstep.

The basic problem is that both party leaders and their advisers are using the issue as a stick with which to defeat the other side. There ARE sensible heads on both sides (Grieve is one on the Tory side who has consistently talked sense and also tried to raise the issue of Russian interference in the ballot, that both main party leaders refuse to discuss). But they are marginalised figures within their own parties with no power to influence the debate significantly.

We are dreadfully lacking statesmen. We have a generation of 3rd rate political pygmies in charge.

As I suggested and you have confirmed, there ARE sensible heads on both sides.
Also, as everyone knows, the Brexit issue is be8ng used as a political tool to beat the other side with.
As poor as our politicians may be the time is right for them to pull together to get things sorted for the benefit of the country.

I keep reading that Brexit is the biggest issue for the UK since WW2.

Wasn’t the war cabinet a mixture of both major parties?

[Axholme Lion]

Just a thought........as this Brexit situation is the most important thing for us in donkeys years, wouldn’t it be good if the best brains from all parties got their heads together and sorted out what is really best for the uk and its people.

***OXYMORON ALERT*** 'Best brains from all parties'.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound

Yes. But they are not in positions of power. So they can't substantively influence things.

[drfchound]

Hound

Yes. But they are not in positions of power. So they can't substantively influence things.

The point should be though, they should work together in the short term for the benefit of us all and for the country, rather than trying to belittle the opposition parties.

They would get much more respect from the general public.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

WHO should?

The leaders on both sides have no vision.

The clear-sighted ones on both sides have no power.

[drfchound]

Hound.

WHO should?

The leaders on both sides have no vision.

The clear-sighted ones on both sides have no power.

The two parties should.
The clear sighted ones should be drafted in, much like as in a war cabinet.

Our politicians have been elected to do the best they can for their constituents.

If would be good if they did just that instead of trying to put down their opponents.

[wilts rover]

In his Conference speech Corbyn said he was willing to work with the Tories to find an acceptable deal. He, McDonnell and other senior Labour figures have consistently repeated that ever since, both in Parliament and out of it. In fact McDonnell was very vocal about it when he was on Peston last week.

Now you may say that Labour are being very disingenuous about this and only offering to work with May as they know she can't as any deal she passes with the help of Labour votes will drive the right-wing of her party mad and most likely split them, but it's not Labour who are blocking working together.

Yes Hound, one of Churchill's first moves was to appoint Labour ministers to his cabinet. In fact if I remember correctly he actually approached Attlee to see if he would be willing to work with him before he brought down Chamberlain.

[Filo]

3500 army personell placed on standby for a no deal brexit, do they think things ate going to turn violent?

[drfchound]

3500 army personell placed on standby for a no deal brexit, do they think things ate going to turn violent?

They do.
I have also been advised to stock up on food and other consumables.
Good fun eh.

[DonnyOsmond]

Leave won by 2% and now we're heading for the most hardest of Brexits but Theresa doesn't want to divide the country anymore....

[DonnyOsmond]

3500 army personell placed on standby for a no deal brexit, do they think things ate going to turn violent?

People most likely to riot? Young people.
People most ignored and voted heavily to remain? Young people.

People's Vote with 3 options of No Deal, Remain or May's Deal. That will then calm things instead of May taking us towards no deal with her fingers in her ears. Allow 16 year olds to vote too as it will affect them more than someone who is 61.

[Bentley Bullet]

Leave won by 2% and now we're heading for the most hardest of Brexits but Theresa doesn't want to divide the country anymore....

Leave won by 3.8%

[DonnyOsmond]

Leave won by 2% and now we're heading for the most hardest of Brexits but Theresa doesn't want to divide the country anymore....

Leave won by 3.8%

Slightly out but it's f**king ridiculous.