Brexit Negotiations

[RedJ]

Might not be beyond the wit of man, but if it isn't, it's probably beyond the extent of his wits.

[hoolahoop]

Here's a thorny little problem.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JeanneBartram/status/931940574529249280/photo/1

Or maybe this.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RettopNoj/status/919087078469722112/photo/1

Still. Never mind. Boris reckons it's not beyond the wit of man to sort it out, so I'm sure it's all in hand.

Boris' logic is beyond the wit of man. I can't see a solution other than N.Ireland being part of the Customs Union - perhaps we could pair it up with the I.O.M making a super tax haven . We need bigger,  better and yet more  tax havens to shelter all those millionaires from paying even a small iota of the extra monies they will be pocketing from Rees- Smug's alternative budget.
It's only a matter of time before a leading Brexiter gets his hands on the keys to no.11 and looks after all his buddies at the expense of our country .

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/01/brexit-vote-cost-niesr-economic-growth

Hey-ho. 16 months ago, there were plenty saying they wouldn't judge the effect of the Brexit vote on the economy because economists were predicting different things.

Well, this isn't a prediction. It's a measurement of what's already happened. The drop in economic growth has already left the country poorer to the tine of £600 per household. On top of that, higher inflation due to the drop in the value of the pound means that the cost of living is higher by £400 per household.

And the predictions of the ones who were right last Summer are that this lower performance will be a long-term problem. And it builds, year on year. If their predictions are right, by 2020 we'll be £3-4000 per household worse off per year. But when you add the effects together over 4 years, it'll mean a sum of maybe £8-10,000 per household that we've lost.

Still, we took back control, eh?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?

Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP  to be used in English papers .

It wasn't from the DUP, it was through the DUP. ie laundered to deliberately avoid the spending rules in the rest of the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42055523

[MachoMadness]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/01/brexit-vote-cost-niesr-economic-growth

Hey-ho. 16 months ago, there were plenty saying they wouldn't judge the effect of the Brexit vote on the economy because economists were predicting different things.

Well, this isn't a prediction. It's a measurement of what's already happened. The drop in economic growth has already left the country poorer to the tine of £600 per household. On top of that, higher inflation due to the drop in the value of the pound means that the cost of living is higher by £400 per household.

And the predictions of the ones who were right last Summer are that this lower performance will be a long-term problem. And it builds, year on year. If their predictions are right, by 2020 we'll be £3-4000 per household worse off per year. But when you add the effects together over 4 years, it'll mean a sum of maybe £8-10,000 per household that we've lost.

Still, we took back control, eh?

"Fearmongering"
"Fed up of listening to experts"
"They need us more than we need them"
Today:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/20/london-loses-european-medicines-agency-amsterdam-brexit-relocation

[SydneyRover]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Still waiting for any good news stories about Brexit at all from any verifiable source on any subject at all regarding those that intend living in the UK for the next 100 years.

[hoolahoop]

Donning the old tinfoil hat, I wonder if the latest bout of leaks surrounding offshore tax havens sheds any light as to why certain very wealthy, influential figures ploughed so much into the Leave campaign, considering the EU's talk of clamping down on tax havens?

Of course it was always to do with protecting themselves . Fortunes were pouring into various " Leave " campaigns , even from the DUP  to be used in English papers .

It wasn't from the DUP, it was through the DUP. ie laundered to deliberately avoid the spending rules in the rest of the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42055523

Far more behind your quote Glyn for those that haven't read it AggregateIQ = Cambridge Analytica = the same people involved in the Trump campaign .
"The campaign paid £625,000 to clear bills allegedly run up by university student Darren Grimes with a digital agency days ahead of last June's vote.
A separate group, Veterans for Britain, received £100,000 from Vote Leave.
The campaign denies attempting to get round spending limits - the Electoral Commission initially accepted this but now says it has new information."

This is going to be a can of worms .......linking us to the Russians too . Brexit was a test run in hijacking western democracy . It worked against the odds not once but twice and it doesn't influence referenda/ elections ......my arse it doesn't !

[hoolahoop]

So we have lost , The Medicines Agency, Passport ing Rights, the  place we have held on the International Court of Justice so far this week . Not bad for a country that's regaining it's place in the world - feck me Brexiters and you still remain unconvinced ?

It's better to be poorer as well is it too  ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/01/brexit-vote-cost-niesr-economic-growth

Hey-ho. 16 months ago, there were plenty saying they wouldn't judge the effect of the Brexit vote on the economy because economists were predicting different things.

Well, this isn't a prediction. It's a measurement of what's already happened. The drop in economic growth has already left the country poorer to the tine of £600 per household. On top of that, higher inflation due to the drop in the value of the pound means that the cost of living is higher by £400 per household.

And the predictions of the ones who were right last Summer are that this lower performance will be a long-term problem. And it builds, year on year. If their predictions are right, by 2020 we'll be £3-4000 per household worse off per year. But when you add the effects together over 4 years, it'll mean a sum of maybe £8-10,000 per household that we've lost.

Still, we took back control, eh?

I see the Treasury's own projections have confirmed this f**king catastrophe in the Budget today.

In November 2015, before the Brexit campaign started, they were expecting us to grow at about 2.5% a year from 2016-2020.

Now the Treasury is saying that growth last year was about 2.0% and it will be between 1.3-1.5% until 2021.

This is horrific. The rest of the world is experiencing a growth spurt. America is growing at around 3%. The rest of Europe is growing at faster than 2%. It's only us that is seeing growth choked back.

If we lose 1% growth per year for 5 years, which is what the Treasury is saying, the results are terrifying. It means that by 2021, we'll have lost something like £300-350 billion of potential wealth.


THREE HUNDRED BILLION POUNDS.

That'd pay for maybe 3 million social houses.

Or the tuition fees for 10million students on 3 year degrees.

Or 10,000 miles of motorway.

Or maybe 500 big hospitals.

It is utterly f**king staggering, the future that we are in the process of throwing away.

[hoolahoop]

How many " lost " £ 350 million a week to the NHS " do you make that too Billy - seems like a lot of lost weeks to me . Where is Filo by the way , perhaps he can explain all this expert opinion away ?

As for me I'm fecked off with the lot of it now .

[Glyn_Wigley]

Ah, but you're forgetting Hoola, the standard way of explaining away what experts say these days is "what the feck do they know anyway?".

[hoolahoop]

Ah, but you're forgetting Hoola, the standard way of explaining away what experts say these days is "what the feck do they know anyway?".

True the spoils from the Empire will more than cover any shortfall and don't forget we did win the war " all on our own " as well !

Fascinating fact here about WW2 Losses as a proportion of the population :-

Poland lost....... 17.2%
Soviet Union..... 14.2%

Quick quiz question what proportion of our population did we lose in WW 2 ?

Have a guess first then I will see who is the closest . Slightly macabre I know but interesting nevertheless.

[hoolahoop]

UK contribution to EU in 2016 was £ 8.6 billion. Now BST predicted losses of £ 300 - 350 billion by 2021.

Now I make that on the lowest estimate equal to just short of 35 years of contributions  !

[Filo]

How many " lost " £ 350 million a week to the NHS " do you make that too Billy - seems like a lot of lost weeks to me . Where is Filo by the way , perhaps he can explain all this expert opinion away ?

As for me I'm fecked off with the lot of it now .

Still here, just sick of reading you bleat about the result of a democratic vote that you don't like. And just to clarify, I am not an expert, have never professed to be. You need to stop calling people because they voted in a different way to you, look at other remain voters in this thread and you'll see that none of them use the same vitriol as you

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo.

Your comment about "bleating" is disappointing. Yes, you're right, I didn't like the result of the vote. But not because it's a dick waving competition.

I would LOVE to be wrong about Brexit. I'd love it to turn out to be a fantastic opportunity for the country to bloom and grow. I'd love the economic forecasts to be wrong. Because I don't want my kids to grow up in a poorer country.

But the predictions haven't been wrong so far. They've been right on the money. We went into the Brexit vote with strong economic growth and stronger forecasts than almost anywhere in Western Europe. 18 months on, we've got the worst growth and the worst forecasts in Western Europe.

This is a calamity the like of which we've not seen in our lifetimes. That's why I didn't like the result. And those who voted for it need reminding of it every f**king day. It's YOU who have put us here.

[hoolahoop]

How many " lost " £ 350 million a week to the NHS " do you make that too Billy - seems like a lot of lost weeks to me . Where is Filo by the way , perhaps he can explain all this expert opinion away ?

As for me I'm fecked off with the lot of it now .

Still here, just sick of reading you bleat about the result of a democratic vote that you don't like. And just to clarify, I am not an expert, have never professed to be. You need to stop calling people because they voted in a different way to you, look at other remain voters in this thread and you'll see that none of them use the same vitriol as you

Believe me there's no vitriol just facts , facts from experts, facts from the Govt., obvious facts and still you turn your head away as you gleefully pissed our country away  .
This is not bleating Filo ....this is anger . Seems you are not aware of the difference and you are and were quite prepared to argue your case pre and post  the vote in June 2016 when YOU thought it suited.

Democracy did not stop then and you still haven't demonstrated what you see as the future for our country. If you choose not to continue the debate then fine as for me ; I am nailing my colours firmly to the mast.

[hoolahoop]

" Well I'm in the leave camp and all this doom and gloom propaganda from the stayers, especially Cameron and his arse licker Osbourne is only strengthening my resolve, aparently after the referendum date if we vote to leave the world will end! 😀 "   -  May 24 2016

Well the world isn't ending Filo but it doesn't look to rosy for us now does it ?

[idler]

Steve, why do you keep sarcastically bringing up the point that we won the war on our own?
Anybody with any sense knows how much we needed allies to win the the war. By the same token, had we capitulated in 1940 there would have been nobody to stop Hitler. Russia would have been facing far more German troops and armour even earlier.

[hoolahoop]

Because I hear and read about it on here and elsewhere so often . Incidentally we lost 0.8% of our population in WW 2 - I just want to put the record straight there are many youngsters on here that may not know their history properly .

It's important to stress how much " the allies " lost in both wars . Surely you must read the same comments on here inferring that it was we alone that won the war, lost men, women and children.

Call me old fashioned but I don't want another generation growing up hating other Europeans merely because we carry on chucking false facts around in the belief that it's patriotic.

I am fully aware that we held Hitler and the Japanese for that matter at bay whilst we waited for allies to arrive in numbers .

The same applied at the Battle of Waterloo when facing the might of Napoleon ; on that occasion the might of Napoleon was beaten back and defeated with the arrival of Blücher's German ( Prussian ) army.

I'm just putting the record straight , history is poorly taught to our youngsters these days

[hoolahoop]

Steve, why do you keep sarcastically bringing up the point that we won the war on our own?
Anybody with any sense knows how much we needed allies to win the the war. By the same token, had we capitulated in 1940 there would have been nobody to stop Hitler. Russia would have been facing far more German troops and armour even earlier.

Idler,
I apologise for my post it does have an unintended sarcastic tone it was meant to be of interest . Unfortunately it was too close to another post of mine on the same subject matter.

[idler]

No probs Steve. We are all entitled to our opinions and sometimes it feels like that we are all tarred with the same brush.
I don't think that most Brexiters necessarily hate foreigners and want total isolation. That is a stupid stance.
Had Cameron sorted his remain campaign correctly and the EEU been a little less arrogant these conversations would probably not be taking place.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Idler.

You've kind of hit the nail on the head by talking about what Brexit supporters want.

I'm quite certain that most Brexit voters didn't vote for the kind of Brexit we're steamrollering into . The kind that makes us poorer and weaker into the distant future. But that is precisely what we are head towards. Yes Cameron f**ked up royally. But you know as well as I do what the result would have been if the Brexit campaign had ditched that £350m lie (which 48% of people believed in a poll in the week of the vote) and instead campaigned on a ticket that said, "Vote Leave and over the next 5 years the UK economy will lose £300bn."

Folk have been had on a barely imaginable scale.

[drfchound]

Most of the people that i know who voted in favour of brexit told me that the biggest influencing factor in them voting to leave was that "we have to be able to have control of our borders and stop foreigners coming in as they please".

My guess is that they never gave a thought to the financial grief that we are now facing.

[Donnywolf]

.... ditto

I just hope that in the future there is another Referendum based solely on the facts i.e. what the deal has secured / produced and all its implications

Then we will know what leaving would entail and the general population could give a more informed and definitive opinion.

If at that point they decide to vote OUT then at least we all will have to accept the decision but at least everyone will be acting upon facts NOT "presumptions" such as were "mooted" in he first Referendum by both sides - and in each case ridiculed as "scaremongering" by the opposite camps

Was that really a good basis for such a far reaching and critical Referendum. I think not

[Glyn_Wigley]

Most of the people that i know who voted in favour of brexit told me that the biggest influencing factor in them voting to leave was that "we have to be able to have control of our borders and stop foreigners coming in as they please".

My guess is that they never gave a thought to the financial grief that we are now facing.

What do they think now?

[drfchound]

Most of the people that i know who voted in favour of brexit told me that the biggest influencing factor in them voting to leave was that "we have to be able to have control of our borders and stop foreigners coming in as they please".

My guess is that they never gave a thought to the financial grief that we are now facing.

What do they think now?

Some of them have said that had they known more then about the probable issues that are coming our way that they would have voted to remain.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You remember all those scare stories about how companies wouldn't invest in UK because of concerns about Brexit? How the Leave campaign said it was scaremongering and we'd be fine?

This is a list of investment in each country as a % of GDP for 2016.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JoMicheII/status/933726759303958528/photo/1

At least we're doing better than Burundi.

[hoolahoop]

You remember all those scare stories about how companies wouldn't invest in UK because of concerns about Brexit? How the Leave campaign said it was scaremongering and we'd be fine?

This is a list of investment in each country as a % of GDP for 2016.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JoMicheII/status/933726759303958528/photo/1

At least we're doing better than Burundi.

I'm sure things will pick up when we find the pen to sign all those free trade agreements - we will leave Burundi for dead.

[glosterred]

IMO to many people would rather see BREXIT fail than the UK succeed.

[hoolahoop]

Personally would love to see the idea of Brexit fail and the UK back on track and succeeding . Seems we aren't that far apart .

However I would prefer that Brexiters put the country first and park daft ideologies more befitting of the 18/19th centuries where they belong in those centuries.
Great Britain is a superb country when it puts it's mind to it but Brexit is a huge distraction that we could well do without whilst we address  the real priorities in the NHS,  Education, Policing,  etc?

Come on Brexiters , be patriotic and back the country against a few right wing loonies asap before you vote our country further down the global pecking order. You know it now makes sense and let's talk sensibly to the EU about necessary reforms that are needed.
Are you with us Glosterred ?