Brexit Negotiations

[hoolahoop]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_Germany

This is an interesting stat showing that we don't need to be outside the EU to trade with China - Germany seems to have little problem .
Interesting that the Germans exports almost equal those to us demonstrate clearly that being a member of the EU was never considered a barrier to them instead we make excuses or few goods ! Yet again another lie exposed from the Leave campaign . 

[Sprotyrover]

BST, Hoolahoop asked Sproty, "Is there a nation that you do have respect for Sproty"?

I said "He shows respect for the UK, which is refreshing these days".

How or why did you assume that I don't love my country from the contents of my post ?
 Like Billy and others,  if we didn't give a fook about our country , then why are we so desperately trying to maintain its position in the world ? We dont want it to be poorer, we dont want our friends and allies around the world thinking we dont care about ALL our people , we want to work properly with others for a brighter , safer, fairer and more prosperous future.

That certainly , in my view anyway, can't be done shackled to the USA, 
who incidentally want to put trade barriers up with our new friends in China , have sanctions already imposed on Russia ( mentioned above )  and want to build walls along the  Mexican border In addition they  want to renege on the trade deal they have signed with Mexico and Canada . Currently the USA are far from " sound " allies except when it suits them and only them . Finally there is the USA 's attitude on NATO, their foreign aid to bribe countries to vote with them and  their attitude to global warming and the fact that they are the ONLY  country to sign up to the Paris Accord but then once again renege on that agreement.

It doesn't bode well surely does it ?  By the way I love the USA and most of the Americans I have met in my life

You clearly don't have much respect for our neighbours in Sheffield judging by what I have just pulled you up for on another thread!

[hoolahoop]

BST, Hoolahoop asked Sproty, "Is there a nation that you do have respect for Sproty"?

I said "He shows respect for the UK, which is refreshing these days".

How or why did you assume that I don't love my country from the contents of my post ?
 Like Billy and others,  if we didn't give a fook about our country , then why are we so desperately trying to maintain its position in the world ? We dont want it to be poorer, we dont want our friends and allies around the world thinking we dont care about ALL our people , we want to work properly with others for a brighter , safer, fairer and more prosperous future.

That certainly , in my view anyway, can't be done shackled to the USA, 
who incidentally want to put trade barriers up with our new friends in China , have sanctions already imposed on Russia ( mentioned above )  and want to build walls along the  Mexican border In addition they  want to renege on the trade deal they have signed with Mexico and Canada . Currently the USA are far from " sound " allies except when it suits them and only them . Finally there is the USA 's attitude on NATO, their foreign aid to bribe countries to vote with them and  their attitude to global warming and the fact that they are the ONLY  country to sign up to the Paris Accord but then once again renege on that agreement.

It doesn't bode well surely does it ?  By the way I love the USA and most of the Americans I have met in my life

You clearly don't have much respect for our neighbours in Sheffield judging by what I have just pulled you up for on another thread!

Of course not that is Sheffield - I believe in a united Yorkshire and devolution.

[SydneyRover]

It's official, the government don't know what they are doing, they don't know what each other are doing within the government and they can't explain what they are doing to the British public.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/02/liam-fox-no-customs-union-eu-brexit

[BillyStubbsTears]

It’s exactly as I said a couple of months back. May has one aim in these negotiations. That is to avoid making a decision. Because she knows that any decision which will not lead to economic harakiri will be totally unacceptable to the majority of the Tory party.

So she goes into MayBot mode and keeps parroting the line that her SpAds have come up with; that we are aiming to both leave the EU AND keep all the benefits of trade with the EU. Even though the EU has said consistently and forcefully that that cannot happen.

She keeps talking about the Will of the People but they don’t give a shite about the Will of the People. The Will of the People wasn’t to make themselves poorer to the tune of £10k per family which is what the Govt figures leaked this week said would be the result of a Hard Brexit. So if this was about The Will of the People, Hard Brexit would be off the agenda.

But it’s not about The Will of the People. It’s about the fact that there are a few tens of thousands of Tory Party members, and a couple of hundred Tory MPs who are ideologically obsessed with Hard Brexit. And the moment she kicks Hard Brexit into touch, they will knife her.

It’s like a really bad episode of The Thick of It, with all the humour taken out and the main character looking like a malfunctioning Japanese toy robot when asked questions in public.

[hoolahoop]

Excellent post Billy but why has it taken them so long to reach that conclusion and more importantly why are people both here on the forum and in the country so steadfastly stuck to this great idea of Brexit ?
As I see it the question for these Brexiters is either lose face or lose money , jobs and all the advantages of being in the EU - its a no brainer surely !

[Donnywolf]

Camerons legacy. Give the people a say and that will shut the Euro sceptics up for a generation after which I will be gone anyway

Instead he presented us the compete mess we have now * and one which (whether we Leave or not) will probably "haunt us" for many years to come

Cheers Cameron - * but you are ok as Sam has a field somewhere in Scunthorpe !

[hoolahoop]

Camerons legacy. Give the people a say and that will shut the Euro sceptics up for a generation after which I will be gone anyway

Instead he presented us the compete mess we have now * and one which (whether we Leave or not) will probably "haunt us" for many years to come

Cheers Cameron - * but you are ok as Sam has a field somewhere in Scunthorpe !

True the damage has been done not only with the relationships we have with our European " friends" ( who won't forget the way we have disrespected them) but also with the way the whole world sees us now and - it's not pretty.

However like those that would continue to keep a to erag like Trump in power ; we continue to be ruled by this lot . Have you ever seen such a parcel of rogues in a nation - hellbent on destroying the economy and by the very nature the future infrastructure of our country and the wellbeing of our citizens.

Yet still they and the Brexiter millions who now apparently represent all the "will " of ALL  the people contrary to the majority of opinion plough on with their destructive furrows .
However I sense the tide is slowly turning ........

[BillyStubbsTears]

Genius, the current line from the Tories.

May says we will be leaving THE customs union.

Hammond says we will need to stay in A customs union.

Fox says we will not be in ANY customs union after Brexit.

Rees-Mogg says anyone whose predictions disagree with what happens in Rees-Moggland is fiddling the figures.

Well that’s clear then. Obviously the Govt is pulling together to deliver exactly the Brexit that the Will of the People clearly and unambiguously demanded in June 2016.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Genius, the current line from the Tories.

May says we will be leaving THE customs union.

Hammond says we will need to stay in A customs union.

Fox says we will not be in ANY customs union after Brexit.

Rees-Mogg says anyone whose predictions disagree with what happens in Rees-Moggland is fiddling the figures.

Well that’s clear then. Obviously the Govt is pulling together to deliver exactly the Brexit that the Will of the People clearly and unambiguously demanded in June 2016.

Did you see Andy Zaltzman on Unspun this week about 'the will of the people'? Well worth a watch. The whole programme is, actually.

Oh, and you missed out Gove and Johnson from your list...who don't care what happens regarding Brexit but will say anything about it that they think is good for their political careers at the time they say it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is how badly the Tories are mis-Managing Brexit.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/04/brexit-mess-theresa-may-tories?

Note that this is not from a raving lefty. Matthew d’Ancona has been at the heart of the Tory establishment for two decades. And he says this:

“...the present arrangement is a hideous international embarrassment. It seems to me painfully obvious that we need an extension of the negotiating period set by article 50 – entirely possible under its section 3 – if only to replace panic with some semblance of deliberation. And, sooner rather than later, there should be another general election.

“I am scarcely Jeremy Corbyn’s greatest fan, but the notion that the status quo must be preserved simply to thwart his chances of becoming prime minister is not only democratically contemptible but morally outrageous. Indeed, the prospect of a fresh election would force Labour, at last, to spell out its plans for Brexit, and embrace the risks of clarity.

“Yes, I know the voters are fed up of trudging to the polling booths. But they’ll be even more fed up if Britain sleepwalks into a second-rate status, with all that implies, because a clinically dead government was permitted by a mixture of squeamishness and boredom to remain on life support. Time to flick the switch and see what happens.”

I’m old enough to have seen 4 or 5 governments run out of ideas, energy and any collective sense of purpose. When people who are at the very core of your party start publicly saying that the game is up, there’s really no way back. I suspect we’ll be at the polls again before thr end of the year.

[wilts rover]

Sorry Billy. Just to prove that the govs position really does change every five minute the news this evening is that May has ruled out ANY Custom Union.

Which will not doubt come as a shock to her Home Secretary who was on the BBC earlier today saying that people are going to be surprised how united the Cabinet is to be in one. Surprise, surprise Amber.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/04/cabinet-united-brexit-trade-strategy-amber-rudd-theresa-may-customs-union

Another couple of good articles worth reading (for the 3 of us who are not bored rigid by Brexit yet) that touch on hoola's point of why people voted for Brexit - and why quite a lot of them haven't changed their minds - are Gary Younge's piece on nostalgia for a glorious past, 'two world wars and one world cup'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/03/imperial-fantasies-brexit-theresa-may

and the interviews with people in two strong Leave voting areas, Bracknell (where they might change they their mind) and Redcar (where they certainly wont)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/03/brexit-redcar-bracknell-steel

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

At least it looks like there’s some serious negotiating going on in the upper eschelons of the Cabinet.

I say “negotiating”. I mean:
“This is how the deal is going to be PM.”
“Err, Err, Err, Yes Boris, of course I fully agree with anything that means you won’t challenge me for the leadership.”

The most gloriously stupid phrase in d’Ancona’s piece was where he said that May was trying to run a policy of “constructive ambiguity”. As in, trying to say nothing of any substance on anything for fear of upsetting someone or other. Looks like that’s out the window now if the Hard Brexiters have pushed her into a no-CU position.

Course, how that stance squares with the Irish Wuestion is a sticky issue...

[Glyn_Wigley]

It's like two undertakers arguing about which of them can make a corpse look more lifelike.

[Donnywolf]

I’m old enough to have seen 4 or 5 governments run out of ideas, energy and any collective sense of purpose. When people who are at the very core of your party start publicly saying that the game is up, there’s really no way back. I suspect we’ll be at the polls again before thr end of the year.
[/quote]



I do too. I honestly do ! Could then be all up for "grabs" again !

There may be (well there are) Groups pushing for us to Remain in / have another vote for various reasons / have another Vote once agreement has been reached and can be "tabled for us to vote on - and I think those Groups and many others would have a focus point and there would be Parties pitching for their support - and that of those who still want to leave

If it happens it could be the most INTERESTING Election I will have been able to vote in. Bring it on I say

[tommy toes]

Me and you are old enough to have seen at least 10 governments run out of steam John!
I think it's fair enough to offer the country a referendum once everything has been decided and set in stone and we know for certain what we were voting for.
Hopefully then (given a second vote)the leavers will come to their senses and vote to STAY IN.

[Glyn_Wigley]

It just gets to be more and more of a farce, and an unfunny one at that. Number Ten confirms this morning that we're definitely leaving the Customs Union. Later today Barnier confirms that this means we'll lose the benefits of being in the Customs Union...and then David Davis - sat next to Barnier! - says we want to still have all the benefits of being in the Customs Union but not be members of it! You couldn't make it up. I can't believe people are willing to trust this bunch of amateurs to negotiate loads of free trade deals after we leave the EU.

[Donnywolf]

I cant believe any of it ... you could not write it as a Book as it would be too farcical to be believed

[hoolahoop]

It just gets to be more and more of a farce, and an unfunny one at that. Number Ten confirms this morning that we're definitely leaving the Customs Union. Later today Barnier confirms that this means we'll lose the benefits of being in the Customs Union...and then David Davis - sat next to Barnier! - says we want to still have all the benefits of being in the Customs Union but not be members of it! You couldn't make it up. I can't believe people are willing to trust this bunch of amateurs to negotiate loads of free trade deals after we leave the EU.

I watched that too, frankly Barnier looked as though he had given up on Davis and our Government - he/ they simply refuse to look at the position of the 27 it's almost as if they don't hear/ recognise it . We are going to hell in a handcart  with this lot unless  Corbyn and the Tory " Remainers " get together with the SNP and Lib/Dems to stop this destruction.
Corbyn and Momentum are now the key .....Or MPs must defy their respective whips .

[BillyStubbsTears]

It’s beyond farce now.

In December, in order to close Stage 1 of the talks, we effectively agreed to stay in, or very closely aligned with the CU and SM in order to solve the Irish border issue.

This weekend, after weeks of prevarication, May has caved in to the swivel eyed loony wing of her party and said that we’re not doing that. 24 hours before sitting down with Barnier to discuss the way forward.

Can you begin to imagine how disrespectful, chaotic, mendacious and dysfunctional we appear to those on the other side of the table. We spend months negotiating. We get an agreement, then, sat right in front of Barnier on TV, we say, “Nope. Not doing that. We want to leave the CU and SM and be able to trade seamlessly with you anyway. Even though we know that you’ve been saying for two years that’s not technically or politically possible. And even though we publicly agreed with you in that just 8 weeks back.”

[Glyn_Wigley]

If I were the EU I'd give Britain a 'take it or leave it' option then stand back and let all the squabbling happen inside the British Cabinet instead of being pratted about in whatever passes for 'negotiations'.

[i_ateallthepies]

Perhaps the EU still think there's a chance that the momentum switches back toward remain and by whatever means a new vote could be had, but fear that any strong-arm tactics by them would only serve to cement any wavering brexiters back firmly in the 'leave' camp.

[Bentley Bullet]

Would no-nonsense hardliner Jacob Rees-Mogg handle the negotiations better?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Perhaps the EU still think there's a chance that the momentum switches back toward remain and by whatever means a new vote could be had, but fear that any strong-arm tactics by them would only serve to cement any wavering brexiters back firmly in the 'leave' camp.

What 'strong-arm tactics'? Waiting for the British negotiators to come up with something sensible - and consistent?

[wilts rover]

Would no-nonsense hardliner Jacob Rees-Mogg handle the negotiations better?

What do you think Bentley?

[BillyStubbsTears]

“No nonsense”?

Good one B.B.  All I’ve ever heard come out of his mouth is nonsense.

[Bentley Bullet]

You never let me down wilts!

Like I've always said before regarding anything Brexit, I don't know! After all, it's never happened before, so anything I say would only be conjecture. That's why I'm interested in the views of those who deem themselves capable of accurately predicting the outcome of it.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I don't think Rees-Mogg would be any good in the negotiations as he'd rather torpedo them than take them seriously.

[Bentley Bullet]

So approving everything they say is the way forward?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Lots of things happen every year that haven’t happened before.

No one had ever flown before the first flight. No one had climbed Everest before the first people climbed Everest. No one had gone to the Moon before the first people went to the Moon.

Sensible folk who were doing those things for the first time didn’t stick their thumb in their mouth and their cock in their hand and hope it’d be alright. They thought about the most logical outcome given the facts that they did know. They discussed with experts who knew something about the issues. They anticipated scenarios and considered risk-benefit cases.

What they didn’t do was listen to a bell end like Rees-Mogg.