Brexit Negotiations

[Bentley Bullet]

Billy, some folk don't believe we even landed on the moon.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye well. Some folk still think we’re going to be better off out of the EU.

As a great man once said, you can’t argue with idiocy.

[Bentley Bullet]

Why not? I am!

[BillyStubbsTears]

I forgot the second line.

Unless you’re an even bigger idiot.

[Bentley Bullet]

They discussed with experts who knew something about the issues. They anticipated scenarios and considered risk-benefit cases.

What they didn’t do was listen to a bell end like Rees-Mogg.

Who have you discussed it with Billy? What if you'd have discussed it with Rees-Mogg?

[Glyn_Wigley]

So approving everything they say is the way forward?

If you say so. Nobody else on here has suggested it though.

[BillyStubbsTears]

If I’d discussed it with Rees-Mogg?

Well, I wouldn’t have been the Wright Brothers. That’s for sure. I’d have ended up like the blokes who dressed up as chickens and jumped off Margate pier in an attempt to prove that man could fly.

I said that people who want to assess what will happen in hitherto unencountered scenarios listen to EXPERTS. Not gobshites and snake oil salesmen.

[Bentley Bullet]

So approving everything they say is the way forward?

If you say so. Nobody else on here has suggested it though.

I didn't say so. I asked a question. Either answer the question without distorting it or don't get involved.

[Bentley Bullet]

If I’d discussed it with Rees-Mogg?

Well, I wouldn’t have been the Wright Brothers. That’s for sure. I’d have ended up like the blokes who dressed up as chickens and jumped off Margate pier in an attempt to prove that man could fly.

I said that people who want to assess what will happen in hitherto unencountered scenarios listen to EXPERTS. Not gobshites and snake oil salesmen.

So what experts have you discussed it with then, Billy?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I’ve not discussed it with any. What I have done is read around the subject. A lot. From all sides.

And a theme emerges.

There are predictions from eminent economists of the effects of Brexit. Most of them have been proved right. None of them are positive about Brexit. I’ve posted several up on here.

On the other side, there are no prominent economists predicting good things about Brexit. Just a bunch of self-serving politicians with track records of lying and dissembling.

Kind of makes the decision about which side you support quite easy.

[Bentley Bullet]

Obviously not though, seeing as most people voted to leave. Isn't it a case of believing who you want to believe?

[Glyn_Wigley]

So approving everything they say is the way forward?

If you say so. Nobody else on here has suggested it though.

I didn't say so. I asked a question. Either answer the question without distorting it or don't get involved.

You started the distorting when you asked the question, I was just following your lead. Ask a silly question and all that...

[bobjimwilly]

Obviously not though, seeing as most people voted to leave. Isn't it a case of believing who you want to believe?

Many of those who voted brexit will not be fully informed; they probably didn't have the time to fully research the issues, were misled by politicians that should/do know better and were let down by the journos and media that they do follow - most of my friends fall into this category and none of them are idiots. It's an appalling situation and one that we could still pull out of, but unfortunately we won't

[Bentley Bullet]

Talking of leads, BST, can you put Wigley the Yorkie's on him and put him in the back garden if we are to continue this chat? He's snapping at me again!

[Bentley Bullet]

Obviously not though, seeing as most people voted to leave. Isn't it a case of believing who you want to believe?

Many of those who voted brexit will not be fully informed; they probably didn't have the time to fully research the issues, were misled by politicians that should/do know better and were let down by the journos and media that they do follow - most of my friends fall into this category and none of them are idiots. It's an appalling situation and one that we could still pull out of, but unfortunately we won't

BJW, what a refreshing change from the normal opinion of this thread to say leavers aren't idiots.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I don’t think Leave voters were idiots. I DO think that a good proportion of them have been prepared to listen only to what suited them and to ignore the wider discussion.

Example.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.uk.businessinsider.com/one-in-four-brexit-voters-believe-they-were-misled-by-the-leave-campaign-2017-8

26% of Leave voters in that poll think they were misled by the £350m a week claim.

So. Let’s get this right. That claim was known to be a lie at the time of the vote. It has been comprehensively discussed up and down the country since and there isn’t a shred of truth to support it. Garage and Johnson have both disowned it. But 74% of Leave voters don’t seems to think they were misled by it.

That’s three-quarters of Leave voters who are either unaware of or totally impervious to a clear, unambiguous and definitive discussion on a vitally important point of fact.

If you don’t see this as a bit of a problem then you don’t really respect the concept of democracy.

[idler]

Obviously not though, seeing as most people voted to leave. Isn't it a case of believing who you want to believe?

Many of those who voted brexit will not be fully informed; they probably didn't have the time to fully research the issues, were misled by politicians that should/do know better and were let down by the journos and media that they do follow - most of my friends fall into this category and none of them are idiots. It's an appalling situation and one that we could still pull out of, but unfortunately we won't

That description is very accurate of the Brexiteers that I know. To be banded together with the racists,xenophobes and far right doesn't do justice to many.

[Bentley Bullet]

Of course, there were lies, on both sides. Lies are still being told now. For instance, people are still saying the £350m a week NHS claim was down to Farage.

What really has shown a disrespect for the aspect of democracy is the attitude of many of the remainers, before and after the vote. I for one almost changed my vote to leave after hearing them constantly patronising the 'idiotic, foolish, racist, xenophobic leavers'.

I didn't then and still don't now want to be associated with them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What were the lies on the Remain side?

The key themes of Remain were that if we left, we’d take a big economic hit and there’d be big problems sorting out Ireland.

The big themes on the Leave side were that if we left, we’d be able to get whatever deal we wanted with the EU, we’d be better off and Ireland? No problem.

Given how the past 18 months has planned out, do you think there were equal amounts of honesty and deception on both sides?

As for xenophobia, of course not every Leave voter is a racist. Not even close. But equally, it’s mendacious to suggest that none are. Why else would, for example, Johnson lie about 80million Turks being lined up to have the right to move to the UK. Why else would Farage unveil a menadicious poster of queueing migrants on the very same day that a man shouting “Britain First!” shot dead an MP.

There’s nothing correct and noble about ignoring the fact that SOME people are racist bas**rds.

Equally, if one side is correct about a very important issue and the other side is wrong, it’s not suitable to respect the wrong point of view. You have to demolish it. Point out to them time after time after time that they are wrong. There’s nothing correct or noble about being even handed when one side is clearly right and the other side is clearly wrong.

[bobjimwilly]

I fact-checked most things that were side by either side in the run up to the referendum, and the different in % of "un-truths" being spouted was staggering! I would say there were no significant lies told by the remain side at all, although there were a lot of vague theories but that couldn't be helped. The leave side were spreading their vague theories as facts on many occasions though, such as the £350 million a week we would save...

[BillyStubbsTears]

The key problems with Brexit highlighted by the Remain side have all been demonstrated to be broadly correct.

- We have had a significant economic slowdown, just as predicted. Not a recession, true, but that's because the entire world economy has hit an upslope, whilst we are one of the very few countries that has seen growth fall off. If the world economy hadn't picked up, we would likely be officially in recession now. The Leave side said that we would be richer by leaving. That's already been shot out of the water. We've already lost several tens of billions of pounds of economic output. And that loss is going to accumulate over the next few years.

- We did see an immediate and significant fall in the value of the  Pound. That has led to higher inflation, further eroding living standards, because it is the worst kind of inflation. If the inflation was down to a booming economy and rising wages, which is the problem that the rest of the world is now looking at, that would be much better. But it's not. It's because all our exports are more expensive than they were in 2016.

- The Irish border HAS turned out to be a major problem. The Remain side tried to point that out during the campaign. The Leave side said it was ridiculous scaremongering, and would be easy to solve.

- Remain said that it wasn't realistic for us to opt out of the EU but still retain all the benefits of easy trade with the EU. Leave said that was nonsense, the EU would be falling over themselves to offer us a gold plated deal to ensure trade continued unaffected. 18 months on there's absolutely no sign of anything remotely resembling the deal that the Leave side predicted.

To suggest that both sides lied as BB says simply doesn't tally with the facts. One side got its predictions broadly correct and perhaps got some of the details wrong. The other side's arguments have all been shown to be hopelessly incorrect. It's incontrovertible that the case that was put to the electorate by the Leave side has entirely fallen apart.  Leave voters were sold a great big right-wing pup. You can't ignore that because it might hurt the feelings of Leave voters. Those facts should be pointed out on a daily basis.

[turnbull for england]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42977967  and now ignore the report of what will happen as it doesn't include the guesswork outcome of what we most likely can't have

[selby]

Billy I accept everything you say about people being misled, and that's part of the problem, there are older generations that feel they  were misled into voting to join something that morphed into something completely different to what they voted to join.
   They are the ones that were lied to, and have had to accept everything since, not all bad admittedly, but not what they voted for.
   The big difference is , their generation respected the vote once declared, something this generation seem incapable of doing.
  And the politicians  who disagreed, joined forces in parliament to make joining work, something else the present generation could learn.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No you’re wrong Turnbull.

John Redwood says these assessments are all nonsense. So it’s alright then. After all, he’s an economics expert. Back in 2010, he was absolutely certain that Austerity would lead to a resurgent economy.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

I’m sorry but that is wrong. Politicians disagreeing over Europe destroyed the Labour Party in 1981 and wrecked the Tory Govt in 92-97.

[wilts rover]

You never let me down wilts!

Like I've always said before regarding anything Brexit, I don't know! After all, it's never happened before, so anything I say would only be conjecture. That's why I'm interested in the views of those who deem themselves capable of accurately predicting the outcome of it.

Thanks Bentley, always glad to help.

I dont believe its conjecture to answer your question about how Rees-Mogg would get on with Brexit negotiations once you know what it is he actually stands for.

Rees-Mogg has consistentaly said that what he would like to see is Britain as a low tax, deregulated, free-trade society with Brexit being the first step towards that. A large tax haven for the rich competing with Belize, Panama, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man for hedge funds, global company headquarters, oligarchs and investment funds (such as the one he owns) if you like, importing goods as cheaply as possible. This will benefit already rich people but is projected to have 'devastating' effect on industry, agriculture and working class communities (which he has never denied) and is the complete opposite of why people such as aidanstu (and those in Redcar in the link above) who said they voted Leave to protect/rebuild industry.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/14/jacob-rees-mogg-hard-brexit-would-boost-uk-by-135bn-over-5-years
https://www.rt.com/uk/418116-brexit-rees-mogg-money/

The EU has always been quite clear it is opposed to this vision/plan and what it would mean for the EU to have an unregulated tax haven 20 miles away from its border. So clearly any negotiations between them would be very short as they have nothing to negotiate about.

It does worry me that people support Rees-Mogg with actually knowing what it is he wants. It worries me even more when they do know what sort of country he wants. Mosley, Powell, Thatcher, Rees-Mogg, different generations, same ideas.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Billy I accept everything you say about people being misled, and that's part of the problem, there are older generations that feel they  were misled into voting to join something that morphed into something completely different to what they voted to join.
   They are the ones that were lied to, and have had to accept everything since, not all bad admittedly, but not what they voted for.
   The big difference is , their generation respected the vote once declared, something this generation seem incapable of doing.
  And the politicians  who disagreed, joined forces in parliament to make joining work, something else the present generation could learn.

The people who voted in the 1975 referendum didn't vote to join anything, they voted for the status quo as it was at that time, which is what they got. Where the UK went in the EU after that was decided by the successive UK governments that were also voted for by the British public.

[Donnywolf]

We need Politicians that have principles that they believe in and will stick to.

REAL Politicians - not some prat(s) that go on Telly Quiz Shows and act like buffoons allowing people to take the p**s out of them - whilst knowing it is part of their master plan to seem "a nice bloke" or "normal" or god help us PM material

[Filo]

The SNP, Plaid Cymru, and the Ulster Unionists all wanted out in the 1975 referendum, how times change

[Donnywolf]

Billy I accept everything you say about people being misled, and that's part of the problem, there are older generations that feel they  were misled into voting to join something that morphed into something completely different to what they voted to join.
   They are the ones that were lied to, and have had to accept everything since, not all bad admittedly, but not what they voted for.
   The big difference is , their generation respected the vote once declared, something this generation seem incapable of doing.
  And the politicians  who disagreed, joined forces in parliament to make joining work, something else the present generation could learn.

The people who voted in the 1975 referendum didn't vote to join anything, they voted for the status quo as it was at that time, which is what they got. Where the UK went in the EU after that was decided by the successive UK governments that were also voted for by the British public.

I am not sure that I agree with that but maybe I misunderstand what you are saying

In 75 I voted against joining the Common Market (quite ironic given I am a remainer now) but it seemed that the Vote was largely made on Party Lines and so it was YEARS and I do mean YEARS till I ever met anyone that voted YES to joining

So I believe I voted NOT to join the Common Market. Ironically the Tories won that Vote and since then half of them have pulled themselves apart time and again trying to get us back out and finally they have done it - and again ironically a lot of Labour Party voters helped them as they voted "Leave"