Brexit Negotiations

[BillyStubbsTears]

On the subject of being fed misinformation as a deliberate, long-term political project, this is a fascinating and terrifying read.

https://bigthink.com/paul-ratner/34-years-ago-a-kgb-defector-described-america-today.amp?__twitter_impression=true

[hoolahoop]

Hoola you must have missed May's announcement in December (easily done as they were announcing the figures for the divorce bill & that problem over the Irish border came up) that Britain was commited to staying in the Erasmus programme until at least the end of the transition period, December 2020.
https://inews.co.uk/news/education/theresa-may-commits-britain-erasmus-student-exchange-2020/

Clearly like Euroatem, Europol, European Arrest Warrant, ESA, the Galileo project and the rest, Erasmus is an EU programme the government values and would like to stay part of but no deal means no deal on any of them.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-education/brexit-may-hurt-popular-erasmus-student-exchange-scheme-officials-say-idUSKBN1FJ2N1

No I didn't miss it but the Daily Mail and Express have certainly missed May's aspirations . However any deal on Erasmus+ , even with a Transition/ Implementation period means that this is the last but one , at best or perhaps the end by March 2019.

I must admit , I had never heard of Euratom, the ESA and Galileo prior to the Referendum vote and very little about the European airspace, Medicines Agency and of course the vexing N.Ireland border conundrum of course I had heard about Erasmus + for personal reasons .

Other things I hadn't thought about were the RAF bases on Cyprus ( raised for the 1st time recently )
and the complexity of Gibraltar
So many unknowns to come out of the woodwork yet but apparently we ALL knew what we were voting for ........REALLY ? Even the campaigners didn't know until some things presented themselves . It's like a rotten apple .

[Glyn_Wigley]

What the f**k are you on about?

What does that mean ? Everyone on here knows that you understand perfectly well " what the f**k " BST was referring to

What? Who? I don't understand.

Yes we know. You not understanding is your default reply.

OK then Mr Wewewewewiggerly, you explain.

What, just so you can ignore anything I say and give your default answer of 'I don't understand, explain it to me' yet again? I don't think so.

[Bentley Bullet]

No Mr Wewewiggerly, I want you to explain what Hoolahoop was on about, seeing as you obviously understand more than I do. Now get on with it man.

[wilts rover]

Hoola you must have missed May's announcement in December (easily done as they were announcing the figures for the divorce bill & that problem over the Irish border came up) that Britain was commited to staying in the Erasmus programme until at least the end of the transition period, December 2020.
https://inews.co.uk/news/education/theresa-may-commits-britain-erasmus-student-exchange-2020/

Clearly like Euroatem, Europol, European Arrest Warrant, ESA, the Galileo project and the rest, Erasmus is an EU programme the government values and would like to stay part of but no deal means no deal on any of them.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-education/brexit-may-hurt-popular-erasmus-student-exchange-scheme-officials-say-idUSKBN1FJ2N1

No I didn't miss it but the Daily Mail and Express have certainly missed May's aspirations . However any deal on Erasmus+ , even with a Transition/ Implementation period means that this is the last but one , at best or perhaps the end by March 2019.

I must admit , I had never heard of Euratom, the ESA and Galileo prior to the Referendum vote and very little about the European airspace, Medicines Agency and of course the vexing N.Ireland border conundrum of course I had heard about Erasmus + for personal reasons .

Other things I hadn't thought about were the RAF bases on Cyprus ( raised for the 1st time recently )
and the complexity of Gibraltar
So many unknowns to come out of the woodwork yet but apparently we ALL knew what we were voting for ........REALLY ? Even the campaigners didn't know until some things presented themselves . It's like a rotten apple .

That's right hoola and when people blindly say No Deal is fine we can trade on WTO rules - No - No Deal is No Deal on all those aspects above and others besides. When Varadaker says No Deal means airplanes can't fly over Ireland then airplanes can't fly over Ireland whatever the Daily Mail says.

Anyone who supports no deal is mad, or is a millionaire with funds in international banking, or both.

[BillyStubbsTears]

And I see that illogical runt [1] Dominic Raab has started offf his time as Brexit Secretary by threatening that we won’t pay the “Divorce Bill” if we don’t get a settlement.

But of course:
1) It isn’t a divorce bill. It’s an agreement to pay for things that we have legal signed up to.
2) We agreed last December to pay this.

So. Raab’s tub thumping will

1) Quite understandably put into the minds of the EU negotiators the thought that we can’t be trusted.

2) Out into the minds of the EU negotiators the thought that Raab is actually playing to the Euro-phobic gallery at home rather than being serious about negotiating in good faith.

[1] I’ve had a minor connection with Raab. He was on R5 a couple of years ago promoting his Bill to make strikes illegal unless 50+% of union members voted for strike action, not 50% of the voters.

So I phoned in. And pointed out that in the 2015 Election, only 44.8% of his constituency’s electorate voted for him. And that, according to his logic, he had no legal right to be an MP.

His response was that that was totally different. No explanation why it was totally different. He just decided it was.

So I concluded the man is a gobshite with a tenuous grasp of logic. And he, ladies and gentlemen, is the best one this f**king shower could find to negotiate all our futures.

[Glyn_Wigley]

No Mr Wewewiggerly, I want you to explain what Hoolahoop was on about, seeing as you obviously understand more than I do. Now get on with it man.

 

[hoolahoop]

Interesting Twitter feed I hadn't noticed before, I hope it works :- please bear with it . Thanks to the author and researcher btw

(link: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1016761275295191040.html) threadreaderapp.com/thread/1016761…

It's perhaps even worth a thread of it's own selby,  bpool and others have a look at this and think before you slag the EU off . It shows how and why you have been totally misled by a small group of people and the newspapers that support their stance .

Did you see any of this reported in the Daily Mail/ Express/ Telegraph/ Times and the Sun ?

What's even more depressing is that our supposedly neutral BBC ( Brexit Broadcasting Corporation) also steered well away from the facts . Constantly we hear " leaving the EU was in both Parties manifestos " but then so were all these ignored facts and aspirations !

The ' energy efficient ' light bulb argument was a small but daft one .

[hoolahoop]

No Mr Wewewiggerly, I want you to explain what Hoolahoop was on about, seeing as you obviously understand more than I do. Now get on with it man.

Like me , he knows, from all your contributions on here over the year, that you are far brighter than you pretend to be . We all know that you inject venom into these threads and that's great we recognise that. However you have recently taken up the pretence that you don't understand long and well- reasoned contributions from others.
This is not intended to flatter you only to recognise your intellect .
I'm sure I will get a " what do you mean, " or " who me  ? " reply at some stage

[Bentley Bullet]

Hoola, I don't call questioning the 'we' brigade an act of injecting venom. Neither do I claim to understand things when I don't. I still don't understand your post suggesting that I asked BST what the f**k he was on about. I don't understand it because I never said it.

By the way, who exactly are the 'we' brigade?

[hoolahoop]

We - are those contributing to the thread ( that includes you of course)
Venom - perhaps I should have explained myself better , you sometimes ask the awkward questions that others hadn't thought about. Also it kick starts the discussion. It wasn't meant to have a negative connotation.
No sometimes you claim NOT  to understand the subject matter or the direction of travel when clearly from experience I think you do ( the very opposite of how you read my post )  . That's healthy for any debate  - it makes people think why they are entrenched etc .
None of the above were meant to be taken as negatives .

I have been reading your contributions on here for years and don't claim to know you because clearly I don't- I have however recognised that your interjections usually are there for good reason . 

I hope that answers all your questions ?
Incidentally it was your post # 2030 that I referred to

[Bentley Bullet]

Well, I'm of the understanding that 'we' refers to the handful of people on this thread who stick together, answering each other's questions in an 'allow me to handle this one, comrade' brotherhood type of way, and often in an arrogant and smarmy way by one of them in particular.

Hyenas spring to mind!

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

You’ve had this obsession about there being a back-slapping clique on here for many years.

You clearly don’t see when there are heated arguments between “us”.

People have different opinions on many subjects. Personally, I’ve had many arguments on here with Hoola, Glyn, Wilts, Bob G back in the day and others.

It’s inevitable that, in a grown up exchange of views, there’ll be times when several people agree and times when the same people will disagree. It’s how grown up discussions work and it’s how grown up conclusions are reached. It’s odd that you don’t mention any of the disagreements but you do get upset when several of “us” broadly agree.


Now, regarding your comment on Saturday night that I was too tired to answer (because I was working until 2am). No, of course I don’t think only Guardian readers should be able to vote. I’ve never said anything that remotely justifies that conclusion. What I do think is that if democracy is going to work, we should all be grown up enough to realise when certain organisations are deliberately and systematically trying to mislead and misinform people. And I think we should be grown up enough to consider the implications of that, and not get angry or defensive when someone points it out.

I also think democracy isn’t a moment when someone goes into a polling station and casts a vote. It doesn’t start and end there. A healthy democracy relies on millions of discussions and arguments. It depends on people being prepared to examine information and facts as they emerge. In its own tiny way, that’s a process that is going on in here. I’d hope it’s going on in a million homes and work places and pubs and forums up and down the country. Because we are no clearer about Brexit now than we were two years ago. And saying “There was a vote - leave “them” to get on with it” is not how democracy should work. 

[MachoMadness]

One of the big problems with "the left" at the minute is that they can't seem to agree on owt. See: Corbyn, Sanders, Clinton, etc etc. Even on Brexit a few of the old-school socialists I know down Mexborough voted leave and stand by their vote because they don't like the idea of the EU on a fundamental level, so it's not like there's some big leftie gang that all get together to wear Labour badges and drink shandy.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST. Many years ago there were two brothers from Bentley who used to knock several bells of shit out of each other on a regular basis. As a result, they were both as hard as nails.

Now if anybody else were to t**t one of them...............


Brotherhood!

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Nice story. Explains your view on tribalism. But that’s obviously not what is going on here. It’s frustrating thatvthat is how you see it. And it’s one of the biggest problems we have at the moment.

Think about it. In the US Election for the Alabama Governor recently, the Republican candidate had a track record of sexually molesting teenage girls. A senior local Republican said “It’s not ideal but we’re still supporting him because the alternative is electing a Democrat.

That’s where tribalism takes you. And that’s not what is going on here. What’s happening here is people with different opinions discussing issues. Sometimes they agree. Sometimes they don’t.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, It's not quite as simple as that. Take for instance your arguments with your fellow 'us' men. How many times did you tell any of them to 'go to bed' despite it being you who was the tired one? How many of them called you thick, or childish? How many of them did you call petulant? How many of them called you a berk?! How many of them called you a thick berk?!!

I'm all for grown-up debate, but I'm not going to resist retaliation when I get childish insults thrown my way.

Have yo ever asked yourself why very few people bother opposing the 'we' clan?

[Sprotyrover]

I lost interest when he got to quoting the size of speed bumps in Burnley🤔

Are you a changed man Sproty , time was when you would have dissected this piece of well written journalism like a silkworm presented with a pile of mulberry leaves ?  Oh what a yarn you might once have spun from it. ( sorry about that 🤗)

I guess " speed bumps in Burnley " is stretching even your incredulity as much as it did mine. However I am reliably informed there is factual evidence to support what would normally be considered absolute nonsense. No doubt as this mess draws to some kind of f**ked up conclusion we will hear more of this stuff .

What you saw as well written journalism I saw as 'drivel'

[wilts rover]

No Mr Wewewiggerly, I want you to explain what Hoolahoop was on about, seeing as you obviously understand more than I do. Now get on with it man.

Like me , he knows, from all your contributions on here over the year, that you are far brighter than you pretend to be . We all know that you inject venom into these threads and that's great we recognise that. However you have recently taken up the pretence that you don't understand long and well- reasoned contributions from others.
This is not intended to flatter you only to recognise your intellect .
I'm sure I will get a " what do you mean, " or " who me  ? " reply at some stage

Just for any avoidance of doubt can I make it clear that in no way do I associate myself with any group or individuals who think that BB is more intelligent than he pretends to be.

Can I also make it clear that my disagreement with syndey over several posts on the previous page, my long term disagreements with BST over Corbyn, Blair, Syria, Salisbury, etc in no way confirm (or deny) hoola's accusation against me last week that I was playing devil's advocate.

Also if anyone is offended by my not calling them a berk, then please feel free to call yourself a berk.

Thank you for your attention.

[wilts rover]

What's even more depressing is that our supposedly neutral BBC ( Brexit Broadcasting Corporation) also steered well away from the facts . Constantly we hear " leaving the EU was in both Parties manifestos " but then so were all these ignored facts and aspirations !

Interesting you should post that as the Anna Foster show this morning had a 'fact check' on what may or may not happen if there was no deal Brexit. Worth listening to if you didn't hear it, from around 35 minutes in
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bbnfc1

[Bentley Bullet]

Can I just point out that there is no connection between Wilts and Berks.

Unless you're on about the canal, like.

[hoolahoop]

Well, I'm of the understanding that 'we' refers to the handful of people on this thread who stick together, answering each other's questions in an 'allow me to handle this one, comrade' brotherhood type of way, and often in an arrogant and smarmy way by one of them in particular.

Hyenas spring to mind!

Don't be so paranoid - your contributions and your stance is respected as much as any other forum user . I've told you what I meant and hyenas never worried you before.....

[hoolahoop]

BST, It's not quite as simple as that. Take for instance your arguments with your fellow 'us' men. How many times did you tell any of them to 'go to bed' despite it being you who was the tired one? How many of them called you thick, or childish? How many of them did you call petulant? How many of them called you a berk?! How many of them called you a thick berk?!!

I'm all for grown-up debate, but I'm not going to resist retaliation when I get childish insults thrown my way.

Have yo ever asked yourself why very few people bother opposing the 'we' clan?

I'd like to say it's never happened to me but BST and I had a fundamental disagreement a few years ago when he slagged off something I supported - we were at it hammer and nail for months and even now avoid the subject. Glyn and I have had a minor disagreement on another thread which you have probably read recently but it's just debate . That's what " Off Topic " and more especially this particular topic brings about ....healthy but rigorous debate .
I remember arguing with RobtheRover , Sif and BST about some subject or other . I can't remember calling those 3 hyenas but f**k me once they had cornered me on a subject verbally ; they were like 3 pitbulls fighting over a chihuaha. Its not personal, its not bullying if ypu engage you have to back it up on here. You always have had to

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

I said go to bed the other night because I had set out what I thought was a logical and reasonable argument for why I think it was unreasonable of you to equate the Guardian and the Mail. You responded by bizarrely asking if I thought only Guardian readers should be allowed to vote. Ignoring the fact that I’d listed other newspapers whose political leanings run counter to mine, but whose journalist integrity I don’t usually question.

That seemed like a very odd response from you. So I assumed you were too tired to engage in a sensible debate.

It’s not personal. It’s not about agreeing or disagreeing. It’s about being sensible. 

[Cantley Rover]

Can I just say it is refreshing to see the reasoned?? arguments on here and not some of the childish posts on the chat forum. We might not all agree but it is good to read both sides views.
Maybe it is because some of the kids don't understand what the hell we are talking about on here 

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, my two brothers situation was, I thought a logical and reasonable comment also, and thought it was unreasonable for you to respond bizarrely by suggesting that it explains my view on tribalism.

If I'm guilty, so are you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

No. The gist of your two brothers story is that, when faced with external criticism, the brothers will defend each other no matter what.

That is the very definition of tribalism.

That’s not remotely what happens in here, despite your repeated insistence that it is.

[Bentley Bullet]

......And so will the 'we' men! Even if they don't agree with a fellow 'we' man they will defend him simply by not getting involved, especially if is against one of the venomous posters like me when he has asked an awkward question.

Never, ever has one of the 'we' men took my side against another 'we' man!

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Maybe it’s because you don’t make arguments that convince them. Just a possibility.

If you put down this obsession and engaged with the salient parts of the argument, maybe you might get a bit further. If you ignore the salient parts of the argument and make daft jibes about only Guardian readers being allowed to vote, it suggests that you don’t really want to engage with the discussion.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, I don't want to get involved politically about the outcome of Brexit. I only talk about things that I know a bit about, and the outcome of Brexit isn't one of them. I don't believe the Guardian has any greater powers of crystal ball reading than the other rags either.