Brexit Negotiations

[Glyn_Wigley]

Subliminal cuts have been used for donkey's years. They were used in radio broadcasts in WW2. They are now used on bigger audiences like social media.

How did they get something subliminal on the radio?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Subliminal cuts have been used for donkey's years. They were used in radio broadcasts in WW2. They are now used on bigger audiences like social media.

That’s missing the point.

1) If it’s on the radio, EVERYONE can hear it. Therefore people can counter lies. Can’t do that if lies are being whispered into people’s ears on social media. And they were lies. Just look at that link.

2) The adverts were aimed specifically at people who had been profiled as being susceptible to accepting the lies. And the profiling was done illegally. In two ways. Cambridge Analytica and Aggregate IQ broke the law by getting illegal access to people’s Facebook data. And Vote Leave broke the law by creating a fake organisation to channel funding to those companies without declaring it.

This is REALLY important. Can’t you see it? Democracy is being bought.

[RedJ]

This is REALLY important. Can’t you see it? Democracy is being bought.

It's terrifying that the general public just don't seem to care about it, either.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST. Of course I can see it. I'm just saying that it's not a new thing!

[BillyStubbsTears]

But it is a new thing. For the reasons I gave. It’s hidden. And it’s focussed.

And it’s illegal.

[Bentley Bullet]

No, it isn't a new thing!

[BillyStubbsTears]

So when in the past have FOCUSSED, HIDDEN messages been sent specifically to people who have been PROFILED as being susceptible to being receptive to them? In such a way that it’s impossible to counter them?

[Bentley Bullet]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-short-history-of-the-rise-fall-and-rise-of-subliminal-messaging/

[BillyStubbsTears]

That’s similar in that it’s trying to subconsciously influence people, but it’s not what we’re talking about. This is about PROFILING, then sending hidden messages.

[SydneyRover]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-short-history-of-the-rise-fall-and-rise-of-subliminal-messaging/

I hate myself when I use sarcasm or ridicule people to get a point across, but as has been said before BB you do understand and deliberately refuse to accept the truth, so Ill type this slowly for you, the concept of subliminal messaging has be known and used for years but the ability to tailor and deliver it to individuals has not been accomplished or acheived on such a mamoth scale.

[Bentley Bullet]

Now let me say this to you slowly also. I did say that they are now used on bigger audiences like social media. Before that, they were used on the radio and then later on TV.

My point is that it is not new!

Now, tell me where I said anything else.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB.

No one is arguing against you on that. It’s just very frustrating that you seem to be determined to ignore the central point.

[Bentley Bullet]

No BST, YOU'RE the one ignoring the central point.

You refuse to accept anything I say, and I can live with that, but I wonder how many potential posters are put off by your constant attempts to put words into other posters mouths. Perhaps what's more alarming is those who actually don't realise you do that.

[SydneyRover]

No BST, YOU'RE the one ignoring the central point.

You refuse to accept anything I say, and I can live with that, but I wonder how many potential posters are put off by your constant attempts to put words into other posters mouths. Perhaps what's more alarming is those who actually don't realise you do that.
[/quote
George Greengrass suddenly came to mind!.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

I ACCEPT that subliminal advertising has gone on for years. I SAID earlier in this thread that what you were talking about was similar in that it aimed at sub-consciously influencing people.

But it is a fact that that what we are talking about differs from that because of the profiling. Do you want me to say “Yes BB. You’re right, they ARE precisely the same thing,” when they aren’t?

[selby]

 Just a thought, while the leave campaign has been taken to court, has all the funding for the remain campaign ( the large walks etc in London last month ) and the campaign that is still going on two years later that needs funding been added up.
  Someone must be putting in a fair wedge even now, for this sustained effort to keep us in the blessed thing.
   Billies electric bill must be massive, or is he using the firms computer for his own campaign.

[SydneyRover]

Now let me say this to you slowly also. I did say that they are now used on bigger audiences like social media. Before that, they were used on the radio and then later on TV.

My point is that it is not new!

Now, tell me where I said anything else.

So do you accept that tailored messaging to susceptible individuals playing on their already dodgy views on racism has never been done on such a large scale?.

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way. You might recall me pointing out that the head of Vote Leave is on record as crowing that they paid some clever guys to focus adverts in the final week of the campaign through Facebook to people who they had (illegally) identified as being susceptible to being anti-immigrant. Cummings said they sent 1.5bn adds to 7million people.

Facebook have given Parliament a document with images from those ads.

Here they are.

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Fake_news_evidence/Vote-Leave-50-Million-Ads.pdf

And there’s all sorts of stuff coming out of the cesspool of Vote Leave Facebook posts.

When MP Jo Cox was murdered by that far right terrorist, who shouted “Britain First” as he shot her in the face, both sides of the campaign agreed to stop campaigning for three days from 16-1@ June as a mark of respect.

Except the Vote Leave Facebook adds went on being sent out. As w now know from the Facebook records released to Parliament.

https://mobile.twitter.com/veritasta/status/1022752615447375872/photo/3

So Vote Leave wasn’t just criminal. It was unethical, immoral and untrustworthy too.

[Bentley Bullet]

Yes, BST, I want you to say I'm right in that it's intention to sub-consciously influence people is a donkey's years old process.

[RedJ]

Nobody ever said it wasn't...

[Bentley Bullet]

Now let me say this to you slowly also. I did say that they are now used on bigger audiences like social media. Before that, they were used on the radio and then later on TV.

My point is that it is not new!

Now, tell me where I said anything else.

So do you accept that tailored messaging to susceptible individuals playing on their already dodgy views on racism has never been done on such a large scale?.

Whether I accept that or not isn't the point. You're just trying a Billyesque approach to change the subject.

Thinking about it though, wouldn't you have thought they'd have concentrated on influencing more potential remainers rather than those who were already potential leavers?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

Yes. It is. Unquestionably.

It’s also not what we are talking about.

Two blokes in the pub:
First one says, “Have you seen those driverless cars?”

Second one says, “So what? Henry Ford was making cars a hundred years back.”

[SydneyRover]

Now let me say this to you slowly also. I did say that they are now used on bigger audiences like social media. Before that, they were used on the radio and then later on TV.

My point is that it is not new!

Now, tell me where I said anything else.

So do you accept that tailored messaging to susceptible individuals playing on their already dodgy views on racism has never been done on such a large scale?.

Whether I accept that or not isn't the point. You're just trying a Billyesque approach to change the subject.

Thinking about it though, wouldn't you have thought they'd have concentrated on influencing more potential remainers rather than those who were already potential leavers?

But it is the point if that what i asked, dont cha think?.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Now let me say this to you slowly also. I did say that they are now used on bigger audiences like social media. Before that, they were used on the radio and then later on TV.

My point is that it is not new!

Now, tell me where I said anything else.

So do you accept that tailored messaging to susceptible individuals playing on their already dodgy views on racism has never been done on such a large scale?.

Whether I accept that or not isn't the point. You're just trying a Billyesque approach to change the subject.

Thinking about it though, wouldn't you have thought they'd have concentrated on influencing more potential remainers rather than those who were already potential leavers?

No. That’s not how it works. What they were doing was mobilising people who would normally sit on their arses, to get out and vote. It wasn’t about trying to change opinions. It was about making people with a Brexit opinion so scared or angry that they would change the habit of a lifetime and go and vote. Cummings is on record as saying this himself. That was the whole point of the campaign.

That’s the new politics. And that’s where I’m old fashioned. I think democracy is about arguing over facts and coming to a decision. The new politics is about identifying people who aren’t politically savvy, then secretly pouring lies into their ears to tell them that their prejudices and instincts are correct, and if they don’t get out and vote, that other bunch of bas**rds over there will win and everything that you hate and fear will come to pass.

[Glyn_Wigley]

How can you put something subliminal on the radio? It's a complete contradiction in terms!

[MachoMadness]

The ads on Facebook weren't subliminal, they were either overt or supraliminal, which means you can see them even if you don't explicitly always notice them. Sort of like the FSF logo that's on this very site. Also BB is right that you can technically put subliminal messages in audio and it has been tried out in the past, although its effectiveness is disputed, so whether it counts is up for debate. Not that it has much to do with the discussion at hand!

Isn't it weird how arguments about Brexit tend to get mired in odd tangents about semantics and never address the facts at hand? I wonder why this could be?

[hoolahoop]

Just a thought, while the leave campaign has been taken to court, has all the funding for the remain campaign ( the large walks etc in London last month ) and the campaign that is still going on two years later that needs funding been added up.
  Someone must be putting in a fair wedge even now, for this sustained effort to keep us in the blessed thing.
   Billies electric bill must be massive, or is he using the firms computer for his own campaign.

Yes a fair bit I know I have personally put £'00s of my own taxed money into it - that's how much of the money is raised .
It's not like Arron Banks suddenly finding a £ 7/8,000,000 wedge from his own bank account when his own partner admits their business has been struggling and even he " couldnt explain where the money came from " . Apparently it was , according to Banks when interviewed , " from my bank current account of course " . Seems he doesn't need to explain where his donations came from - do I take it that you are 100%  happy with that explanation selby knowing that he had countless meetings with not only the Russian ambassador but other unidentified Russians. Are you more comfortable with his explanation or mine ?

Incidentally why do huge walks cost vast sums of money - costs me nowt to walk ?

Trump/Brexit/ Russians/ Dark money- all seem inter -connected and the rise of populism throughout the West and Anglophone nations is not a coincidence. Preying on folks fears on immigration and the dismissal of experts however has its roots in a far- darker past.

[hoolahoop]

By the way. You might recall me pointing out that the head of Vote Leave is on record as crowing that they paid some clever guys to focus adverts in the final week of the campaign through Facebook to people who they had (illegally) identified as being susceptible to being anti-immigrant. Cummings said they sent 1.5bn adds to 7million people.

Facebook have given Parliament a document with images from those ads.

Here they are.

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/Fake_news_evidence/Vote-Leave-50-Million-Ads.pdf

And there’s all sorts of stuff coming out of the cesspool of Vote Leave Facebook posts.

When MP Jo Cox was murdered by that far right terrorist, who shouted “Britain First” as he shot her in the face, both sides of the campaign agreed to stop campaigning for three days from 16-1@ June as a mark of respect.

Except the Vote Leave Facebook adds went on being sent out. As w now know from the Facebook records released to Parliament.

https://mobile.twitter.com/veritasta/status/1022752615447375872/photo/3

So Vote Leave wasn’t just criminal. It was unethical, immoral and untrustworthy too.

Not quite sure what to make of that - why wtf did they do that for . I'm not sure immoral was quite the word for it .

Noticed that Facebook released all this stuff when the summer recess had started as well . That's not a coincidence , let the hullabaloo die down before Parliament sits again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Cummings is claiming today that the adverts weren’t sent out during the embargo period. They were just uploaded then for subsequent release.

Maybe that’s the truth. But it’s not what the FB data released by Parliament says. And to be honest, he sounds deranged on his blog. Firing off abusive missives at the Select Committee chair, and releasing a Parliamentary report which is supposed to be not published till Sunday with the line “I’ve published the report on my blog, f**k the charlatan embargo.

It’s rather unsettling to be honest. Like watching a public nervous breakdown. The man is hugely intelligent, but seems to have no concept of the responsibilities that go alongside involvement in public life. He seems to consider every person in politics to be beneath him and contemptible (bizarrely, excluding Gove and Johnson). That sort of God complex is unlikely to lead to long term mental stability.

[Glyn_Wigley]

It wouldn't surprise me that if he gets punished more for publishing the report during the embargo than he does for anything he did on FB.