Brexit Negotiations

[SydneyRover]

Agreed on all points Wilts.

A lovely mess we've got ourselves into int it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0srO4LTzVTE

[Glyn_Wigley]

Agreed on all points Wilts.

A lovely mess we've got ourselves into int it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0srO4LTzVTE

I think this one's a more accurate depiction of Brexit!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujxwDKeKSyo

[Bentley Bullet]

https://youtu.be/sxqvwkmTNy8

[BillyStubbsTears]

The Will of the People eh?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1LK2U4

By the way, that is a shockingly unprofessional  headline. As the article makes clear, the poll is NOT saying it would be 59-41 to Remain if there was anotgef vote. The figure would be 54-46. But it does show how opinions have changed markedly.

Fascinating to hear the arguments from the Brexiteers. We can't have another vote because...err...that would be undemocratic.

[Bentley Bullet]

Would it be more democratic to have a vote to see if we should have another vote?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Like for example a General Election with Labour offering a vote on the deal and the Tories saying WE will decide what the deal is?

[Donnywolf]

Would it be more democratic to have a vote to see if we should have another vote?

One vote for that from the Thorne - its alll that Mrs DW comes out with (oh along with where have you been till now !)

David Davis has a novel definition of what democracy is
 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-countries-democracy-brexit-vote-article-50-second-referendum-a7629636.html

[bobjimwilly]

surely the point of democracy is to have a vote if the people want a vote.

I'm still waiting for a single "Brexit MP" to give 1 way in which I, or any other working class man, will benefit from Brexit. Surely they can spell it out?

Not one person on this forum would take a loan without knowing the terms, yet half seem to be happy with pulling out the EU without knowing a single damn positive and being told a shit ton of negatives that will affect us all for generations! It's truly baffling and pretty terrifying.

I just wish I had the funds to set up my own loan shark business - I'd offer you all fantastic loans, the best loans ever, miles better than your current lenders, and I'll tell you all about the deal after we've shook hands on it...

[Bentley Bullet]

Surely the point of democracy is to have a vote if the majority of people want a vote? In this case, should there be a vote on having a vote?

The trouble with democracy is people don't always vote the way you want them to.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

I'm not sure you understand how our system works.

It's not about what the people want. It's about what Parliament decides. That's how our system works. If enough MPs vote for a second referendum, there will be one. If enough people put enough pressure on enough MPs to vote that way, they will do so.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST

Is our system different from that of any other democratic country in that respect?

[wilts rover]

BST

Is our system different from that of any other democratic country in that respect?

Yes we are quite unusual to most developed countries in that most have a form of proportional representation where we still have a first past the post system. That of course makes it easier - and more difficult - for members of the government to change position and the public to have influence.
https://www.fairvote.org/research_electoralsystems_world

[wilts rover]

I think we can stop this thread now as we will never have a better summary of Brexit than this respondent to a mumsnet survey (sounds like the future Mrs Wilts Rover to me):

'We should not have been put in this position, it was a ridiculous miscalculation. Our future has been sold up the river. I envisaged jobs, travel and opportunity, not having a potato delivered by the army'.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt

[BillyStubbsTears]

Systems vary.

Switzerland has a system where they regularly have referendums and the results of those are supposed to be mandatory on their Parliament.

The point in the UK is that our referendums don't mandate Parliament because Parliament is the ultimate holder of sovereign authority in the UK. Referendum results should be taken into account by Parliament but it is Parliament's decision as to what to do in the end.

So the point I'm making is that there is nothing in our system to require us, the people to have a vote on anything, except for MPs every so often.

If Parliament decides to reject any aspect of Brexit, or to order a new vote, they can.

[drfchound]

I don’t often have a look on this thread but having done so, I was was wondering whether someone could put up a poll to see whether vsc people would vote to remain or leave knowing what we know now.
Apologies if this has already been done.

I voted to remain in the original poll by the way and would still vote the same way.

[The Red Baron]

Like for example a General Election with Labour offering a vote on the deal and the Tories saying WE will decide what the deal is?

Labour would have to change their official position of course. I do sometimes wonder what it actually is, but so far it doesn't seem to include a referendum on the final deal.

[Donnywolf]

I don’t often have a look on this thread but having done so, I was was wondering whether someone could put up a poll to see whether vsc people would vote to remain or leave knowing what we know now.
Apologies if this has already been done.

I voted to remain in the original poll by the way and would still vote the same way.

You do right not looking. I have been avoiding posting anything and did nowt since April - but like the bloke in Life of Brian who didnt speak for 40 years - I have now done three in 2 days

I only did this one because I did a Poll ages ago - hope you enjoy the results !

https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=266737.0

[BillyStubbsTears]

Like for example a General Election with Labour offering a vote on the deal and the Tories saying WE will decide what the deal is?

Labour would have to change their official position of course. I do sometimes wonder what it actually is, but so far it doesn't seem to include a referendum on the final deal.

Labour would have to change its position. It all comes down to electoral appeal.

Riding both horses sort of made sense in 2017 because Labour was trying to make sure that the ex Lab voters who had gone to UKIP in 2015 would see Lab as sufficiently Brexit supporting that they would return to Lab and not vote Tory.

Things are a bit different now. Tory credibility is going to be shot to bits by March. Chequers can't get through Parliament. And the alternative, a no deal Brexit is an unmitigated disaster. So Labour needs to offer a mild Brexit option (Norway+ deal) then insist on a referendum on that or no deal. They can row back from being as Brexit supporting as they were in 2016 when the Tories are offering an insane no deal Brexit.

Course, all that would require Corbyn the EU-hater to be marginalised but I think there's enough grown ups still in Labour to do that. The first moves need to come at the imminent Conference.

[Bentley Bullet]

If Nigel Farage became the leader of UKIP again could they be a dark horse in a general election?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Let him try. He failed to get elected to Parliament half a dozen times before.

It still won't surprise me to see him getting pulled into the Trump/Russia inquiry. Watch this space.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Farage won't go back to UKIP now Banks has taken his bottomless pockets home. That's the reason UKIP didn't fight every seat last General Election - it wasn't because they didn't want to stand against Brexiters as they said (it never worried them before!), it was because they didn't have the money to do so. Why else would Nige be flying his 'London Mayor' kite without one mention of UKIP being involved, in spite of him presumably still being a member and/or him being their candidate.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah.

Funny how a not massively successful cowboy insurance salesman had already these spare millions sloshing about to fund UKIP and Leave.EU int it? Surely it's not connected with his extensive contacts in Russia?

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/how-did-arron-banks-afford-brexit

[MachoMadness]

A look at the government's plan for no-deal Brexit - or rather, their plans to plan for a no-deal Brexit. Not like this should have been sorted 2 years ago.

[hoolahoop]

I despair that that there are no further comments about the ERG announcements earlier today .
Has everyone accepted this now?

[Glyn_Wigley]

I despair that that there are no further comments about the ERG announcements earlier today .
Has everyone accepted this now?

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/09/11/the-garbled-nonsense-of-jacob-rees-mogg-s-new-press-release

[BillyStubbsTears]

This gets to the heart of the economic plan that the ERG were pushing yesterday.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DuncanWeldon/status/1039508243335151618

The issue is that a small number of peripheral economists claim that we'd be great under WTO rules.

But a huge number of leading economists think that is utter nonsense.

And the BBC, obsessed with "balance" present the story as "Well one side says A and the other side says B". Like Weldon says, what would the BBC do if Rees Mogg supported a report from a bunch of eccentric geographers who claimed the earth was flat? That's the exact equivalent here.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DuncanWeldon/status/1039518745432010752

And of course the Brexit supporting papers don't even go for "balance". They just push that report as more evidence  that Brexit will be fine without ever mentioning that the overwhelming consensus amongst economists is that that report is utter b*llocks.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1015277/No-deal-Brexit-UK-an-80billion-bonus-Jacob-Rees-Mogg

[MachoMadness]

Jason Hunter on Twitter took apart the ERG report piece by piece - not that they were many pieces to take apart in the first place. https://twitter.com/JasonJHunter/status/1039927034712150016

Anyone have any answer to these points?

[albie]

It is probably a mistake to look for rational explanations to the brexit dilemma.

That is because it is a faith based political project.
It does not exist in the world of cause and effect, nor in the context of expert opinion.

This is important, because many hold to the brexit view because it merges with a pre-existing definition of self. It becomes true because the supporters want it to be true.

Not so different from fans forum debates on the pros and cons of your teams performances. We all see a different game, partly at least because we want our prejudices confirmed.

So it goes!

[Bentley Bullet]

Talking of comparisons with the off-topic political attitudes and those of the football sections of the forum, the very same people who agree with the austerity strategy of our football club owners are dead against our country applying the same policy!

[RedJ]

I imagine you'll find most of the people you're referring to lie between 'austerity' as you put it and chucking money at it and hoping for the best.

And in any case. It's this over simplification of the economic argument that's basically let the government off scot-free with that policy for almost a decade.