Brexit Negotiations

[Glyn_Wigley]

If Rovers owners were truly following austerity, they'd have slashed the club's expenditure and kept their money in their pocket.

[Bentley Bullet]

I imagine you'll find most of the people you're referring to lie between 'austerity' as you put it and chucking money at it and hoping for the best.

And in any case. It's this over simplification of the economic argument that's basically let the government off scot-free with that policy for almost a decade.

You imagine wrong.

[DonnyOsmond]

Talking of comparisons with the off-topic political attitudes and those of the football sections of the forum, the very same people who agree with the austerity strategy of our football club owners are dead against our country applying the same policy!

This has to go down as one of the most dense posts ever on here.

[Bentley Bullet]

It will be clearer to some more than others!

[RedJ]

I imagine you'll find most of the people you're referring to lie between 'austerity' as you put it and chucking money at it and hoping for the best.

And in any case. It's this over simplification of the economic argument that's basically let the government off scot-free with that policy for almost a decade.

You imagine wrong.

I don't though.

[BillyStubbsTears]

You do tend to have a very active imagination on things like this BB.

[Sprotyrover]

 Big wake up call for our Bullying soon to be ex partners in Europe, look east this week and brick yerselves,you'll soon be on your own ,no Uk or Us Military presence to cover you, better dig deep tight wads and pay for your own defence.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Od on a bit Sproty.

How many times have you said on here that Putin is no threat to anyone?

[Sprotyrover]

I don't think he is to be honest, but I would have a different view if I was in the company of those fat cats from Brussels.

[Sprotyrover]

Oh and now we have some evidence I think he is behind the Salisbury carry on.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty

For a man who claims to be interested in history, you've got very little understanding of history.

Putin is doing what every leader of Russia has done since Peter the Great.

Rattle the sabre at the West. Threaten to unleash the hordes. Bully and bluster and see who will be prepared to call your bluff.

None of them has ever seen what Russia could be if it properly partnered with the West. They prefer to paint the West as the devil that can be used to keep the serfs in line.

Unfortunately, they have always been aided in that by various Useful Idiots in the West.

[hoolahoop]

How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours  ?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD

There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR  safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?

We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them

[Sprotyrover]

Sproty

For a man who claims to be interested in history, you've got very little understanding of history.

Putin is doing what every leader of Russia has done since Peter the Great.

Rattle the sabre at the West. Threaten to unleash the hordes. Bully and bluster and see who will be prepared to call your bluff.

None of them has ever seen what Russia could be if it properly partnered with the West. They prefer to paint the West as the devil that can be used to keep the serfs in line.

Unfortunately, they have always been aided in that by various Useful Idiots in the West.

You really are out of your depth now, give me some examples of when Peter the great threatened the West, Empress Elizabeth threatened the West,Catherine the great threatened the West.show me some Historical examples of when any Tsar of Russia since Peter the great threatened the West?

[Sprotyrover]

How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours  ?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD

There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR  safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?

We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them

3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty

For a man who claims to be interested in history, you've got very little understanding of history.

Putin is doing what every leader of Russia has done since Peter the Great.

Rattle the sabre at the West. Threaten to unleash the hordes. Bully and bluster and see who will be prepared to call your bluff.

None of them has ever seen what Russia could be if it properly partnered with the West. They prefer to paint the West as the devil that can be used to keep the serfs in line.

Unfortunately, they have always been aided in that by various Useful Idiots in the West.

You really are out of your depth now, give me some examples of when Peter the great threatened the West, Empress Elizabeth threatened the West,Catherine the great threatened the West.show me some Historical examples of when any Tsar of Russia since Peter the great threatened the West?

Sproty

By The West, I meant countries to the west of Russia.

Russia has invaded and/or threatened countries to its west on a regular basis for centuries. Putin is the latest in a long line of Tsars with the mindset that the Russia/Europe relationship is a zero sum game. If someone else isn't losing, you can't be winning.

Of course we used to be like that in Western Europe too. The Treaty of Rome --> EU process was always primarily about getting us out of that historical mindset and realising that by working together we all rise.

I re

Interesting that support for Putin seems to go hand in hand with disdain for the EU these days. Almost as if people are pining for the days when generations marched off to war in Europe on a regular basis.

[Sprotyrover]

Sproty

For a man who claims to be interested in history, you've got very little understanding of history.

Putin is doing what every leader of Russia has done since Peter the Great.

Rattle the sabre at the West. Threaten to unleash the hordes. Bully and bluster and see who will be prepared to call your bluff.

None of them has ever seen what Russia could be if it properly partnered with the West. They prefer to paint the West as the devil that can be used to keep the serfs in line.

Unfortunately, they have always been aided in that by various Useful Idiots in the West.

You really are out of your depth now, give me some examples of when Peter the great threatened the West, Empress Elizabeth threatened the West,Catherine the great threatened the West.show me some Historical examples of when any Tsar of Russia since Peter the great threatened the West?

Sproty

By The West, I meant countries to the west of Russia.

Russia has invaded and/or threatened countries to its west on a regular basis for centuries. Putin is the latest in a long line of Tsars with the mindset that the Russia/Europe relationship is a zero sum game. If someone else isn't losing, you can't be winning.

Of course we used to be like that in Western Europe too. The Treaty of Rome --> EU process was always primarily about getting us out of that historical mindset and realising that by working together we all rise.

I re

Interesting that support for Putin seems to go hand in hand with disdain for the EU these days. Almost as if people are pining for the days when generations marched off to war in Europe on a regular basis.

Not good enough! Either give me some evidence or retract your untruthful statement, put up or shut up. You are always the first to ask for sources
Now get some?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Evidence of what?
Let me get this right Sproty. You're wanting me to give you evidence of Russia having invaded or threatened countries to its West over the past 300 years?

[Sprotyrover]

Evidence of what?
Let me get this right Sproty. You're wanting me to give you evidence of Russia having invaded or threatened countries to its West over the past 300 years?

Give me some examples of when any Tsar of Russia since Peter the Great
Invaded a Sovereign European state without prior provocation.

[wilts rover]

Blimey, is the reach of the red peril now so invasive that they have hijacked a thread on Brexit!

In my little bit of knowledge of Russian history I thought it was exactly the opposite to what Billy was saying. In that from the mid 19th century up until the revolution the Tzars tried to become more European and involve themselves in European political diplomacy rather than seeing Europe as a threat. Nicholas II marrying Queen Victoria's daughter for instance.

I am struggling to think of any major Russian aggression westward after Nicholas 1? We fought him in Crimea of course but that was us and France invading Russia rather then their aggression westwards? Or maybe you are including the attack on the Hull fishing fleet, but of course they were easily mistaken for the Japanese navy?

[SydneyRover]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye, it has got a bit off line hasn't it.

Regarding Russian aggression, well they  invaded Prussia in the first fortnight of WWI. Incompetently, I'll grant you, but Russia's aim was to push the boundary of Greater Russia deep into Prussia and Galicia, and to finish off Austro-Hungarian authority over the Slavs in the Baltic. I don't know what that was if it wasn't westward aggression.

In that sense, the Soviet expansion after WWII was simply a completion of those aims. And Putin's foreign policy has been very much along the same theme - expanding the circle of influence of Russia.

That is what I mean about the Russian approach being to see foreign policy as a zero-sum game. It's rarely been based on agreement. It's been based on projecting force whenever possible. Yes, there was a hiatus after the defeat in the Crimean War but that was the exception rather than the rule. And it was because they'd been shown to be a feudal busted flush militarily, rather than from a conversion to the cause of world peace.

Sproty's point is a good one about provocation. There is a fair argument that  Russian aggression has at  least partly been justified by fear. But then most aggression is justified by the aggressors as a response to provocation.  Hitler justified occupying the Sudetenland in those terms. America justified invading Iraq on those terms. So bringing provocation into the discussion turns it into an entirely subjective debate. Tsarist Russia justified its regular subjugation of Poland as responding to Western threats. But ask a Pole how they see it.

And even though this has gone miles off course, there is a link to Brexit. It is very much in Putin's interests to see the EU in general and the UK in particular, weakened. That's the reason why Russia worked so closely with Arron Banks's Leave.eu campaign.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Meanwhile, back to Brexit.

Wonderful statement of where we are going from May today.

We're either going to have her deal which will mean a lot of damage to the UK economy. Or we're going to have no deal, which will mean a huge amount of damage to the UK economy.

Good to see that we've got a clear choice now.

[wilts rover]

Yes I am agreed with you on the Russian influence on Brexit (and Trump) and the reason they have done it is to make the west weaker and thus making themselves stronger.

Isn't it curious though that Putin and his associates funded both LeaveEU and the Tory Party. The wife of his former finance minister wouldn't have paid £150k for a game of tennis if there wasn't something in it for them.

Then again having just watched the Panorama interview it is clear to see that if the idea was to fund chaos, disaster and lack of political leadership through May's government it appears to be money well spent.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Seems to be a perfectly logical approach by Putin. 

As you say, he's played on sowing chaos with Brexit. Just like he did by courting Salmond and the SNP.

He's paid for an insurance policy with the funding of the Tory party. That means that the Tory party won't take really serious action against him no matter what he does. In that light, Salisbury is perfectly logical. You have the ruling party in hock to you. Then you demonstrate to them, and to the world, the power that you hold over them. You rub their noses in it by showing how little you fear them. And that ridiculous exhibiting of the two GRU guys last week is the icing on the cake. You have so little fear of the Tory Govt that you troll them in public.

Of course, the unexpected bonus for Putin is that he also now has a Labour leader who will bend over backwards to accommodate his foreign policy.

Looks like job done on the UK as a bar to Putin's plans.

You have to take your hat off to him in one sense. Although you'd only go so far as to welcome it if you're happy with Russia as a kleptocracy/gangster state expanding its influence over Europe.

[hoolahoop]

How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours  ?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD

There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR  safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?


We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them

3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!

Don't be daft are you not aware of these agreements :-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancaster_House_Treaties

We have both been looking to sign a far- reaching joint agreement of this type for decades - it makes sense and involves far more than 100 troops and 3 Chinooks !

Incidentally Peter the Great' s finest military achievements were against the Swedes

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.biography.com/people/peter-the-great-9542228&ved=2ahUKEwjEm9C45sPdAhVID8AKHeKHBuAQFjANegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0pZRRoajwniymJQMT54c7s

[DonnyOsmond]

How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours  ?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD

There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR  safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?

We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them

3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!

You know we're still part of NATO x

[hoolahoop]

How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours  ?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD

There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR  safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?

We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them

3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!

You know we're still part of NATO x

Sproty has a weird vision of what it means to leave the EU . Fact is we work very closely and on occasions inter- changeable with them in many flash points/ disasters  around the globe.

[Sprotyrover]

How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours  ?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD

There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR  safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?

We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them

3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!

You know we're still part of NATO x

Sproty has a weird vision of what it means to leave the EU . Fact is we work very closely and on occasions inter- changeable with them in many flash points/ disasters  around the globe.

Yes we are so close that we have pulled all of our Armour out of Germany, that leaves the 60,000 stroking German Army a bit vulnerable, considering Putin has just put 300,000 troops into the field.

[Sprotyrover]

How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours  ?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD

There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR  safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?


We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them

3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!

Don't be daft are you not aware of these agreements :-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancaster_House_Treaties

We have both been looking to sign a far- reaching joint agreement of this type for decades - it makes sense and involves far more than 100 troops and 3 Chinooks !

Incidentally Peter the Great' s finest military achievements were against the Swedes

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.biography.com/people/peter-the-great-9542228&ved=2ahUKEwjEm9C45sPdAhVID8AKHeKHBuAQFjANegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0pZRRoajwniymJQMT54c7s

Yes Charles the 12 th of Sweden was probably one of the best generals of all time. He didn't blink at the thought of Pitting 40,000 Swedes against An Enemy over 100,000 strong. He was Also the victim of  his own men who got fed up and shot him in the head.

The Great Northern War was a clash of 2 superpowers Sweden and Russia
It wasn't Russia picking  on the West it was all about two 
leaders with Very large egos falling out.

[hoolahoop]

How does this fit in with you ridiculous and frankly childish opinion on the safety of our neighbours  ?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-france-commit-to-new-defence-cooperation&ved=2ahUKEwj0w6Si4MDdAhWqC8AKHQTHCS0QFjADegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw1wwoEmYDXeCeLmTuArXhqD

There are others and seeing as though we are still a part of the European continent rather than North America - THEIR  safety is OURS . Do you think we patrol the whole of the North Sea as well as the Channel without help from our European allies ?


We all ensure each others safety ! You watch too many WW11 films with a heavy British slant to them

3 chinooks and 100 troops doesn't make the entente Cordiale! As for Estonia we signal our intention to pull out and leave em to it!

Don't be daft are you not aware of these agreements :-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancaster_House_Treaties

We have both been looking to sign a far- reaching joint agreement of this type for decades - it makes sense and involves far more than 100 troops and 3 Chinooks !

Incidentally Peter the Great' s finest military achievements were against the Swedes

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.biography.com/people/peter-the-great-9542228&ved=2ahUKEwjEm9C45sPdAhVID8AKHeKHBuAQFjANegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0pZRRoajwniymJQMT54c7s

Yes Charles the 12 th of Sweden was probably one of the best generals of all time. He didn't blink at the thought of Pitting 40,000 Swedes against An Enemy over 100,000 strong. He was Also the victim of  his own men who got fed up and shot him in the head.

The Great Northern War was a clash of 2 superpowers Sweden and Russia
It wasn't Russia picking  on the West it was all about two 
leaders with Very large egos falling out.

So not Russian aggression then ffs sproty you could say that the aggression by Putin is about ego  using the same logic.