Brexit Negotiations

[selby]

  Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma  during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
  The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what,  a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones  gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
  That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
  Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their  graves watching this circus.
  And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.

[selby]

  Billy the only numbers that count are not the rallies, it is now how the numbers stack up for the money people. Sad I know, but that is the way of the world.
  We have had our say, now they will manipulate it to their best interests, whether that is in or out there will be lots of money to be made, the pieces will be left for the rest of us to pick up.

[SydneyRover]

93 pages and counting without a credible witness putting forward any advantage to Brexit and references going back to the original vote in 75 wiping out all the arguments about democratic vote results should stand.

[Donnywolf]

My sentiments entirely. I tried asking yesterday when "democracy" ceases. So if "people" are happy to dispense with the 1975 Vote with its overwhelming 34% Majority to be in / stay in then thats ok

However the same people cannot then say that the only 3% majority produced in 2016 has to be binding surely ? Surely it too can be challenged because that is democracy too

The Tory anti EEC / EU wing never ever respected the 1975 vote and tried and tried and tried to get us out. Farage (UKIP of course) stated openly that if the vote went against him and we voted Remain then he for one would continue to campaign / fight / cajole etc until he got what UKIP wanted (us out of the EU) so surely the people who voted Remain have just as much right to protest and try to overturn the Leave vote a) before it is too late and b) if and when we actually leave. Younger people coming along may want to revisit the question in another 10 years or more.

Thats as democratic as the other scenarios I have outlined above - surely ?

[wilts rover]

Any General Election that is fought between now and the beginning of March will be fought purely on the terms of Brexit. Yes the parties will have other things in their manifestos, but clearly the only thing the public will be interested in is 'What is your plan for Brexit and what do you propose for the future relationship with the EU?'

And clearly this time it will need to be a proper plan, people are much more informed than they were a year ago and 'Brexit means Brexit' wont wash any more.

I doubt that Labour's will change very much from what it is now, in the CU and close to (but not in) the SM. Anyone who saw Starmer on the Marr show this morning would have heard him say that he has discussed his idea to stay in the CU and still do separate trade deals with the EU, and they have said it would work. Clearly if he has done that with the CU element he would done the same with the SM element.

Now what on earth would the Tories manifesto pledge be? Can you really imagine Rees-Mogg and Soubry/Grieve coming up with the same plan? I can sooner see them splitting up into 2 parties. That's why they are desperate not to have an election.

Who knows what will happen. I can't see May getting a deal through parliament and I can't see parliament allowing no-deal, but I could see Brexit being postponed.

[selby]

  Sydney I voted to join, I voted to stay in because I new we would fudge it and our leaders are poor. I was fuming at the time and have regretted not having a vote on the Maastricht Treaty, that is when we should have had everything put to us to decide the future.
  Major and Cameron two idiots.

[wilts rover]

I agree Wolfie.

People have just as much right to march through London for a new referendum as Farage does to hang about in a pub in Harrogate demanding a 'pure' Brexit. Politicians dont have to listen to them, but they do have to weigh up what ignoring them might do to their chances of re-election in the next GE.

[wilts rover]

Thank's for the post above Selby, a good reminder in this dark times of when times were even darker - and then we came up with (some) politicans who had a vision for a brighter time.

Like your dad my grandad was also in Coventry during the war. He was sent to help as a fireman after the bombing.

[Akinfenwa]

The result of the 1975 referendum was implemented and remained the case for 41 years.

The result of the 2016 referendum would not be implemented at all if the anti-Brexit brigade got their way, let alone for 41 years.

That's the difference.

[hoolahoop]

  Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma  during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
  The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what,  a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones  gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
  That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
  Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their  graves watching this circus.
  And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.

Hmm we have one or two things in common in that my dear old grandad was the father of 7 youngsters in the east end of London. He went to war and like your dad ended up as a proud owner of a Burma Star he eventually received in the 1980s, half a stomach from the deprivation and beatings, malaria and all sorts of skin conditions,  he received after years in a Japanese POW camp . He eventually  came home to a scattered family and a blown-up home.

He not only felt he had been forgotten but that his family had been forgotten for years . Perhaps only when his family had managed to get themselves settled in a 3 bedroom pre-fabricated council house for the 9 of them in early 1951could he breathe freely once  again.

I know little about his experiences despite spending many 1000s of hours in his company. What I do know is he never spent his life " hating " , he wasn't that sort of man - he was strong, brave but a modest man who loved his family , loved his country but recognised both the weaknesses and strengths of our country. He never once "claimed " we won the war or to my knowledge  hated a German or the Japanese though was wary of the former and always avoided talk if possible of the latter Japanese.

They were tough years for the whole world Selby and contrary to popular belief we didn't bail out the world, the world bailed out the world. People's of every nation trying to recover their lives, broken bodies, lost lives, communities lost forever , minorities wiped out by genocidal maniacs, cities blown up by atomic bombs, Dresden, Auschwitz, Burmese railroads, 100,000s of women raped by rampaging soldiers etc etc. Etc

However we not just the English, the British or the Yanks WE ALL  managed to rebuild this world, made it safer, educated , created, liberated, made it fairer, moved forward  all this could only be done by all of us dropping most if not all of our " exceptionalist " or xenophobic , mysogynistic attitudes.

You see my grandad and indeed my dad who served in Malaya during the communist uprisings would be appalled at your sweeping comments about our young people . Indeed my own daughter studies abroad and was In Auschwitz only this last Thursday ..... Do you know why these feckless / gap year kids are there or are trekking around the battlefields of Ypres or standing for services at the The Menon  memorial  ? so they don't go fecking backwards , so they learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they can ensure they DON'T happen again. So they can try and put prejudices aside.

I'm not ashamed to say that my daughter would never be able to afford to go but for the Erasmus + scheme. She's educating herself , I hope that she and her generation will not make the mistakes of the past. Do you know what she rooms with a Dane, Chinese , Italian, Norwegian and some Aussies. They learn to live together , learn from one another not sit in isolation.

I know only that my family, ALL her ancestors would be proud of her and the many like her who want to build a brighter future for everyone based on  the extraordinary people who prepared the path for them. People that swore not once but twice that it would be the last time ....Now it HAS to be the last time !

We should not be looking to blow up the path into the future by taking them back to those dark days. I wish my grandad could have met yours because you never know they may well have been mates and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pull our children back or divide and weaken them. I was loathe to post this as it's so personal but after much thought ; I think any youngsters on here should read a different narrative to the one you have laid before them.

The Empire has gone but not the individuality of our people. Our history is always there, our great people are written about and studied more often than not revered. They were at their most creative when they were at their most free and for some you would only equate that with being outwith our neighbours .
I believe that we are shrinking away from our destiny by following the path that leads to a possible cliff edge. 

" Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. "

Selby , I simply don't recognise the sweeping statements above of our young having met them and their international friends. I simply don't know whether to accept my experience of this young generation or the sweeping " Daily Express " fuelled comments that you seem to think exist.
If you don't mind I will stick with my former rather than your latter viewpoint of our young.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Err.

Benn. Not Bennett.

Autocorrect is giggling at this one.

[The Red Baron]

Err.

Benn. Not Bennett.

Autocorrect is giggling at this one.

It's funny that when Corbyn was elected leader I rather unkindly described him as a Tony Benn Tribute Act.

The thought of him doing karaoke versions of "I left my heart in San Francisco" had me in stitches.

[Not Now Kato]

https://youtu.be/JvDAW5SjdaE

If you have a spare hour this is a very interesting viewpoint on N.Ireland and it's significance in the current talks. Well worth watching.

Well worth watching indeed, from both the Remain and Leave sides.  Thanks for posting Hoola. 

 
It's a real pity that our media can't publish something as detailed, open and honest - but hey, that's one of the reasons we are where we are - a largely easily manipulated public!
 

Pleased you stuck with it NNK, I thought it was just yet another one of those " bollox filled " interviews but  it was anything but .

Broomstick you NEED  to watch this , it will open up the whole world of the " backstop " to you and the why's and wherefore's of the Referendum itself.

Thanks Hoola.  I've passed it on to quite a few other people, both levers and remainers, and not one of them has disagreed with the points made or criticised Fintan in any way.

[hoolahoop]

The result of the 1975 referendum was implemented and remained the case for 41 years.

The result of the 2016 referendum would not be implemented at all if the anti-Brexit brigade got their way, let alone for 41 years.

That's the difference.

The difference being that the very 1st Referendum in 1975 was clearly laid out accurately for the public to make an " informed " choice when going into the ballot box but this one was muddy, confusing and brought about by lies, exaggerations,  distortions and electoral fraud . When you thought it couldn't get any worse you then found out it was brought about by stealing and distorting individual's personal data and fuelled by huge doses of foreign money. All in all , taking this into account , do you really think this should stand or more importantly Do you really think it was an excellent exercise in democracy ?

The 17.4 million " biggest " vote ever argument is wearing thin, it also had the biggest vote ever against it . The numbers are meaningless, even the narrow margin of victory is rendered meaningless when held up in front of the contextual background.

[Not Now Kato]

Following that excellent Fintan O'Tool video Hoola posted, here's another excellent one from a Northern Ireland perspective.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQJDoiqBjBE
 
Yes, it's an hour long, but I highly recomend watching, by both sides in the argument.  It even motivated me to take a different approach to a dispute I was having with my next door neighbour.

[The Red Baron]

The result of the 1975 referendum was implemented and remained the case for 41 years.

The result of the 2016 referendum would not be implemented at all if the anti-Brexit brigade got their way, let alone for 41 years.

That's the difference.

The difference being that the very 1st Referendum in 1975 was clearly laid out accurately for the public to make an " informed " choice when going into the ballot box but this one was muddy, confusing and brought about by lies, exaggerations,  distortions and electoral fraud . When you thought it couldn't get any worse you then found out it was brought about by stealing and distorting individual's personal data and fuelled by huge doses of foreign money. All in all , taking this into account , do you really think this should stand or more importantly Do you really think it was an excellent exercise in democracy ?

The 17.4 million " biggest " vote ever argument is wearing thin, it also had the biggest vote ever against it . The numbers are meaningless, even the narrow margin of victory is rendered meaningless when held up in front of the contextual background.

The problem with that argument is that just about everything that the NO side said would happen at the time of the 1975 Referendum came to pass. Something that Leave was not slow to point out of course.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The result of the 1975 referendum was implemented and remained the case for 41 years.

The result of the 2016 referendum would not be implemented at all if the anti-Brexit brigade got their way, let alone for 41 years.

That's the difference.

The difference being that the very 1st Referendum in 1975 was clearly laid out accurately for the public to make an " informed " choice when going into the ballot box but this one was muddy, confusing and brought about by lies, exaggerations,  distortions and electoral fraud . When you thought it couldn't get any worse you then found out it was brought about by stealing and distorting individual's personal data and fuelled by huge doses of foreign money. All in all , taking this into account , do you really think this should stand or more importantly Do you really think it was an excellent exercise in democracy ?

The 17.4 million " biggest " vote ever argument is wearing thin, it also had the biggest vote ever against it . The numbers are meaningless, even the narrow margin of victory is rendered meaningless when held up in front of the contextual background.

The problem with that argument is that just about everything that the NO side said would happen at the time of the 1975 Referendum came to pass. Something that Leave was not slow to point out of course.

How does that stand up to the comparison that just about everything the Leave side said during the 2016 referendum campaign hasn't come to pass? At least in 1975 the electorate were given good information and then they decided which way to vote based on it. Did that happen in 2016?

[Herbert Anchovy]

To a degree I’m a ‘Euro Sceptic’ (though I really dislike that phrase) though I can see the obvious merits of an Economic union across Europe. At the time of the referendum I was probably 60-40 in favour of leaving and voted accordingly. However, if there was another referendum tomorrow I’d vote to remain. Not because I’ve suddenly changed my mind on the EU, but more that originally I was naive (or ignorant, take your pick) on the complexities of actually leaving the thing. I also (foolishly) thought we’d have politicians capable of negotiating a reasonable exit. Instead we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place of utterly incompetent politicians who’s priority is to score points within the Tory party and an EU (who’ve always seen the UK as a bit of a liability) who are determined to make an example of us in an effort to keep the union together. Either way, we lose out.

[Bentley Bullet]

I voted remain but am undecided about voting remain again should we have another vote. My concern now is that deciding to stay will render us an easy touch and those who thought we had a bad deal in the EU before might not be prepared to get an even worse deal in future. The possibility of having Corbyn as PM intensifies my apprehension.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB
Fine. Let's show how hard we are and not be prepared to be a soft touch.

Let's be prepared to countenance a No Deal Brexit and wait for the EU to blink.

That'll show how tough we are.

Except...

Oh aye. That was precisely what we DID do for 2 years after the vote. And the EU didn't blink. Because THEY have a far, far stronger hand than we do. And they have far more to lose by caving into us than they do by standing up to us.

So, by tge Tories stupidly overplaying their hand and trying to play the tough guys to impress the Bulldog Spirit folks at home, they've blundered us right up to the edge of catastrophe.

It's not about being tough full stop. It's about knowing what hand you've got, knowing your opponent, knowing how far you can push things and knowing when it's actually in your interests to take a step back.

[Bentley Bullet]

Thanks for that BST, perhaps you can comment on my post now.

[scawsby steve]

  Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma  during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
  The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what,  a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones  gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
  That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
  Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their  graves watching this circus.
  And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.

Hmm we have one or two things in common in that my dear old grandad was the father of 7 youngsters in the east end of London. He went to war and like your dad ended up as a proud owner of a Burma Star he eventually received in the 1980s, half a stomach from the deprivation and beatings, malaria and all sorts of skin conditions,  he received after years in a Japanese POW camp . He eventually  came home to a scattered family and a blown-up home.

He not only felt he had been forgotten but that his family had been forgotten for years . Perhaps only when his family had managed to get themselves settled in a 3 bedroom pre-fabricated council house for the 9 of them in early 1951could he breathe freely once  again.

I know little about his experiences despite spending many 1000s of hours in his company. What I do know is he never spent his life " hating " , he wasn't that sort of man - he was strong, brave but a modest man who loved his family , loved his country but recognised both the weaknesses and strengths of our country. He never once "claimed " we won the war or to my knowledge  hated a German or the Japanese though was wary of the former and always avoided talk if possible of the latter Japanese.

They were tough years for the whole world Selby and contrary to popular belief we didn't bail out the world, the world bailed out the world. People's of every nation trying to recover their lives, broken bodies, lost lives, communities lost forever , minorities wiped out by genocidal maniacs, cities blown up by atomic bombs, Dresden, Auschwitz, Burmese railroads, 100,000s of women raped by rampaging soldiers etc etc. Etc

However we not just the English, the British or the Yanks WE ALL  managed to rebuild this world, made it safer, educated , created, liberated, made it fairer, moved forward  all this could only be done by all of us dropping most if not all of our " exceptionalist " or xenophobic , mysogynistic attitudes.

You see my grandad and indeed my dad who served in Malaya during the communist uprisings would be appalled at your sweeping comments about our young people . Indeed my own daughter studies abroad and was In Auschwitz only this last Thursday ..... Do you know why these feckless / gap year kids are there or are trekking around the battlefields of Ypres or standing for services at the The Menon  memorial  ? so they don't go fecking backwards , so they learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they can ensure they DON'T happen again. So they can try and put prejudices aside.

I'm not ashamed to say that my daughter would never be able to afford to go but for the Erasmus + scheme. She's educating herself , I hope that she and her generation will not make the mistakes of the past. Do you know what she rooms with a Dane, Chinese , Italian, Norwegian and some Aussies. They learn to live together , learn from one another not sit in isolation.

I know only that my family, ALL her ancestors would be proud of her and the many like her who want to build a brighter future for everyone based on  the extraordinary people who prepared the path for them. People that swore not once but twice that it would be the last time ....Now it HAS to be the last time !

We should not be looking to blow up the path into the future by taking them back to those dark days. I wish my grandad could have met yours because you never know they may well have been mates and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pull our children back or divide and weaken them. I was loathe to post this as it's so personal but after much thought ; I think any youngsters on here should read a different narrative to the one you have laid before them.

The Empire has gone but not the individuality of our people. Our history is always there, our great people are written about and studied more often than not revered. They were at their most creative when they were at their most free and for some you would only equate that with being outwith our neighbours .
I believe that we are shrinking away from our destiny by following the path that leads to a possible cliff edge. 

" Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. "

Selby , I simply don't recognise the sweeping statements above of our young having met them and their international friends. I simply don't know whether to accept my experience of this young generation or the sweeping " Daily Express " fuelled comments that you seem to think exist.
If you don't mind I will stick with my former rather than your latter viewpoint of our young.

Hoola, it's admirable of you to give great praise to many of today's youngsters who make the most of their education, visit other countries, and learn about different people and different cultures; I admire them as well.

However, if you believe that all of today's young generation are like that, then you're living on a different planet to me; spice-heads, crack-heads, violent chavs, foul mouthed drunken women with tattooed necks wanting to fight everybody; that's the reality I see all around me; and no, I don't read the Daily Express or any other newspaper, because they all have left or right wing political agendas, every one of them. I form my opinions on what I see, and what I feel.

[Not Now Kato]

  Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma  during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
  The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what,  a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones  gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
  That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
  Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their  graves watching this circus.
  And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.

Hmm we have one or two things in common in that my dear old grandad was the father of 7 youngsters in the east end of London. He went to war and like your dad ended up as a proud owner of a Burma Star he eventually received in the 1980s, half a stomach from the deprivation and beatings, malaria and all sorts of skin conditions,  he received after years in a Japanese POW camp . He eventually  came home to a scattered family and a blown-up home.

He not only felt he had been forgotten but that his family had been forgotten for years . Perhaps only when his family had managed to get themselves settled in a 3 bedroom pre-fabricated council house for the 9 of them in early 1951could he breathe freely once  again.

I know little about his experiences despite spending many 1000s of hours in his company. What I do know is he never spent his life " hating " , he wasn't that sort of man - he was strong, brave but a modest man who loved his family , loved his country but recognised both the weaknesses and strengths of our country. He never once "claimed " we won the war or to my knowledge  hated a German or the Japanese though was wary of the former and always avoided talk if possible of the latter Japanese.

They were tough years for the whole world Selby and contrary to popular belief we didn't bail out the world, the world bailed out the world. People's of every nation trying to recover their lives, broken bodies, lost lives, communities lost forever , minorities wiped out by genocidal maniacs, cities blown up by atomic bombs, Dresden, Auschwitz, Burmese railroads, 100,000s of women raped by rampaging soldiers etc etc. Etc

However we not just the English, the British or the Yanks WE ALL  managed to rebuild this world, made it safer, educated , created, liberated, made it fairer, moved forward  all this could only be done by all of us dropping most if not all of our " exceptionalist " or xenophobic , mysogynistic attitudes.

You see my grandad and indeed my dad who served in Malaya during the communist uprisings would be appalled at your sweeping comments about our young people . Indeed my own daughter studies abroad and was In Auschwitz only this last Thursday ..... Do you know why these feckless / gap year kids are there or are trekking around the battlefields of Ypres or standing for services at the The Menon  memorial  ? so they don't go fecking backwards , so they learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they can ensure they DON'T happen again. So they can try and put prejudices aside.

I'm not ashamed to say that my daughter would never be able to afford to go but for the Erasmus + scheme. She's educating herself , I hope that she and her generation will not make the mistakes of the past. Do you know what she rooms with a Dane, Chinese , Italian, Norwegian and some Aussies. They learn to live together , learn from one another not sit in isolation.

I know only that my family, ALL her ancestors would be proud of her and the many like her who want to build a brighter future for everyone based on  the extraordinary people who prepared the path for them. People that swore not once but twice that it would be the last time ....Now it HAS to be the last time !

We should not be looking to blow up the path into the future by taking them back to those dark days. I wish my grandad could have met yours because you never know they may well have been mates and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pull our children back or divide and weaken them. I was loathe to post this as it's so personal but after much thought ; I think any youngsters on here should read a different narrative to the one you have laid before them.

The Empire has gone but not the individuality of our people. Our history is always there, our great people are written about and studied more often than not revered. They were at their most creative when they were at their most free and for some you would only equate that with being outwith our neighbours .
I believe that we are shrinking away from our destiny by following the path that leads to a possible cliff edge. 

" Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. "

Selby , I simply don't recognise the sweeping statements above of our young having met them and their international friends. I simply don't know whether to accept my experience of this young generation or the sweeping " Daily Express " fuelled comments that you seem to think exist.
If you don't mind I will stick with my former rather than your latter viewpoint of our young.

Hoola, it's admirable of you to give great praise to many of today's youngsters who make the most of their education, visit other countries, and learn about different people and different cultures; I admire them as well.

However, if you believe that all of today's young generation are like that, then you're living on a different planet to me; spice-heads, crack-heads, violent chavs, foul mouthed drunken women with tattooed necks wanting to fight everybody; that's the reality I see all around me; and no, I don't read the Daily Express or any other newspaper, because they all have left or right wing political agendas, every one of them. I form my opinions on what I see, and what I feel.

I didn't realise it was the bad in Scawsby   

[The Red Baron]

The result of the 1975 referendum was implemented and remained the case for 41 years.

The result of the 2016 referendum would not be implemented at all if the anti-Brexit brigade got their way, let alone for 41 years.

That's the difference.

The difference being that the very 1st Referendum in 1975 was clearly laid out accurately for the public to make an " informed " choice when going into the ballot box but this one was muddy, confusing and brought about by lies, exaggerations,  distortions and electoral fraud . When you thought it couldn't get any worse you then found out it was brought about by stealing and distorting individual's personal data and fuelled by huge doses of foreign money. All in all , taking this into account , do you really think this should stand or more importantly Do you really think it was an excellent exercise in democracy ?

The 17.4 million " biggest " vote ever argument is wearing thin, it also had the biggest vote ever against it . The numbers are meaningless, even the narrow margin of victory is rendered meaningless when held up in front of the contextual background.

The problem with that argument is that just about everything that the NO side said would happen at the time of the 1975 Referendum came to pass. Something that Leave was not slow to point out of course.

How does that stand up to the comparison that just about everything the Leave side said during the 2016 referendum campaign hasn't come to pass? At least in 1975 the electorate were given good information and then they decided which way to vote based on it. Did that happen in 2016?

You can't really compare the two at all. The 1975 referendum was very restrained in comparison to the hyperbole on both sides (cf George Osborne and Project Fear). My point is that if you look back at the campaign literature the Yes campaign was keen to highlight the EEC (as it then was) as a trading bloc. The No campaign highlighted  the eventual destination of travel towards a federal union.

[scawsby steve]

  Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma  during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
  The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what,  a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones  gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
  That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
  Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their  graves watching this circus.
  And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.

Hmm we have one or two things in common in that my dear old grandad was the father of 7 youngsters in the east end of London. He went to war and like your dad ended up as a proud owner of a Burma Star he eventually received in the 1980s, half a stomach from the deprivation and beatings, malaria and all sorts of skin conditions,  he received after years in a Japanese POW camp . He eventually  came home to a scattered family and a blown-up home.

He not only felt he had been forgotten but that his family had been forgotten for years . Perhaps only when his family had managed to get themselves settled in a 3 bedroom pre-fabricated council house for the 9 of them in early 1951could he breathe freely once  again.

I know little about his experiences despite spending many 1000s of hours in his company. What I do know is he never spent his life " hating " , he wasn't that sort of man - he was strong, brave but a modest man who loved his family , loved his country but recognised both the weaknesses and strengths of our country. He never once "claimed " we won the war or to my knowledge  hated a German or the Japanese though was wary of the former and always avoided talk if possible of the latter Japanese.

They were tough years for the whole world Selby and contrary to popular belief we didn't bail out the world, the world bailed out the world. People's of every nation trying to recover their lives, broken bodies, lost lives, communities lost forever , minorities wiped out by genocidal maniacs, cities blown up by atomic bombs, Dresden, Auschwitz, Burmese railroads, 100,000s of women raped by rampaging soldiers etc etc. Etc

However we not just the English, the British or the Yanks WE ALL  managed to rebuild this world, made it safer, educated , created, liberated, made it fairer, moved forward  all this could only be done by all of us dropping most if not all of our " exceptionalist " or xenophobic , mysogynistic attitudes.

You see my grandad and indeed my dad who served in Malaya during the communist uprisings would be appalled at your sweeping comments about our young people . Indeed my own daughter studies abroad and was In Auschwitz only this last Thursday ..... Do you know why these feckless / gap year kids are there or are trekking around the battlefields of Ypres or standing for services at the The Menon  memorial  ? so they don't go fecking backwards , so they learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they can ensure they DON'T happen again. So they can try and put prejudices aside.

I'm not ashamed to say that my daughter would never be able to afford to go but for the Erasmus + scheme. She's educating herself , I hope that she and her generation will not make the mistakes of the past. Do you know what she rooms with a Dane, Chinese , Italian, Norwegian and some Aussies. They learn to live together , learn from one another not sit in isolation.

I know only that my family, ALL her ancestors would be proud of her and the many like her who want to build a brighter future for everyone based on  the extraordinary people who prepared the path for them. People that swore not once but twice that it would be the last time ....Now it HAS to be the last time !

We should not be looking to blow up the path into the future by taking them back to those dark days. I wish my grandad could have met yours because you never know they may well have been mates and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pull our children back or divide and weaken them. I was loathe to post this as it's so personal but after much thought ; I think any youngsters on here should read a different narrative to the one you have laid before them.

The Empire has gone but not the individuality of our people. Our history is always there, our great people are written about and studied more often than not revered. They were at their most creative when they were at their most free and for some you would only equate that with being outwith our neighbours .
I believe that we are shrinking away from our destiny by following the path that leads to a possible cliff edge. 

" Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. "

Selby , I simply don't recognise the sweeping statements above of our young having met them and their international friends. I simply don't know whether to accept my experience of this young generation or the sweeping " Daily Express " fuelled comments that you seem to think exist.
If you don't mind I will stick with my former rather than your latter viewpoint of our young.

Hoola, it's admirable of you to give great praise to many of today's youngsters who make the most of their education, visit other countries, and learn about different people and different cultures; I admire them as well.

However, if you believe that all of today's young generation are like that, then you're living on a different planet to me; spice-heads, crack-heads, violent chavs, foul mouthed drunken women with tattooed necks wanting to fight everybody; that's the reality I see all around me; and no, I don't read the Daily Express or any other newspaper, because they all have left or right wing political agendas, every one of them. I form my opinions on what I see, and what I feel.

I didn't realise it was the bad in Scawsby   

Actually, I don't live in Scawsby NNK, not too far away though. Come on mate, you know as well as I do that this country's been heading this way since Thatcher destroyed working class communities.

The sad thing is that no government ever since, of any political persuasion, has done anything about it.

[i_ateallthepies]

Red Baron, genuine question... what exactly do you consider is wrong with a federation?  It seems to work for the US.

[Not Now Kato]

  Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma  during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
  The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what,  a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones  gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
  That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
  Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their  graves watching this circus.
  And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.

Hmm we have one or two things in common in that my dear old grandad was the father of 7 youngsters in the east end of London. He went to war and like your dad ended up as a proud owner of a Burma Star he eventually received in the 1980s, half a stomach from the deprivation and beatings, malaria and all sorts of skin conditions,  he received after years in a Japanese POW camp . He eventually  came home to a scattered family and a blown-up home.

He not only felt he had been forgotten but that his family had been forgotten for years . Perhaps only when his family had managed to get themselves settled in a 3 bedroom pre-fabricated council house for the 9 of them in early 1951could he breathe freely once  again.

I know little about his experiences despite spending many 1000s of hours in his company. What I do know is he never spent his life " hating " , he wasn't that sort of man - he was strong, brave but a modest man who loved his family , loved his country but recognised both the weaknesses and strengths of our country. He never once "claimed " we won the war or to my knowledge  hated a German or the Japanese though was wary of the former and always avoided talk if possible of the latter Japanese.

They were tough years for the whole world Selby and contrary to popular belief we didn't bail out the world, the world bailed out the world. People's of every nation trying to recover their lives, broken bodies, lost lives, communities lost forever , minorities wiped out by genocidal maniacs, cities blown up by atomic bombs, Dresden, Auschwitz, Burmese railroads, 100,000s of women raped by rampaging soldiers etc etc. Etc

However we not just the English, the British or the Yanks WE ALL  managed to rebuild this world, made it safer, educated , created, liberated, made it fairer, moved forward  all this could only be done by all of us dropping most if not all of our " exceptionalist " or xenophobic , mysogynistic attitudes.

You see my grandad and indeed my dad who served in Malaya during the communist uprisings would be appalled at your sweeping comments about our young people . Indeed my own daughter studies abroad and was In Auschwitz only this last Thursday ..... Do you know why these feckless / gap year kids are there or are trekking around the battlefields of Ypres or standing for services at the The Menon  memorial  ? so they don't go fecking backwards , so they learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they can ensure they DON'T happen again. So they can try and put prejudices aside.

I'm not ashamed to say that my daughter would never be able to afford to go but for the Erasmus + scheme. She's educating herself , I hope that she and her generation will not make the mistakes of the past. Do you know what she rooms with a Dane, Chinese , Italian, Norwegian and some Aussies. They learn to live together , learn from one another not sit in isolation.

I know only that my family, ALL her ancestors would be proud of her and the many like her who want to build a brighter future for everyone based on  the extraordinary people who prepared the path for them. People that swore not once but twice that it would be the last time ....Now it HAS to be the last time !

We should not be looking to blow up the path into the future by taking them back to those dark days. I wish my grandad could have met yours because you never know they may well have been mates and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pull our children back or divide and weaken them. I was loathe to post this as it's so personal but after much thought ; I think any youngsters on here should read a different narrative to the one you have laid before them.

The Empire has gone but not the individuality of our people. Our history is always there, our great people are written about and studied more often than not revered. They were at their most creative when they were at their most free and for some you would only equate that with being outwith our neighbours .
I believe that we are shrinking away from our destiny by following the path that leads to a possible cliff edge. 

" Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. "

Selby , I simply don't recognise the sweeping statements above of our young having met them and their international friends. I simply don't know whether to accept my experience of this young generation or the sweeping " Daily Express " fuelled comments that you seem to think exist.
If you don't mind I will stick with my former rather than your latter viewpoint of our young.

Hoola, it's admirable of you to give great praise to many of today's youngsters who make the most of their education, visit other countries, and learn about different people and different cultures; I admire them as well.

However, if you believe that all of today's young generation are like that, then you're living on a different planet to me; spice-heads, crack-heads, violent chavs, foul mouthed drunken women with tattooed necks wanting to fight everybody; that's the reality I see all around me; and no, I don't read the Daily Express or any other newspaper, because they all have left or right wing political agendas, every one of them. I form my opinions on what I see, and what I feel.

I didn't realise it was the bad in Scawsby   

Actually, I don't live in Scawsby NNK, not too far away though. Come on mate, you know as well as I do that this country's been heading this way since Thatcher destroyed working class communities.

The sad thing is that no government ever since, of any political persuasion, has done anything about it.

I know mate, it was said jokingly - hence the smiley.  And you're right, this country has gone to the dogs since Thatcher introduced the Me Me Me culture.  You only need to walk around Doncaster to see what you describe, every day of the week.  And it's not just Doncaster, it's everywhere.  A truly sad state of affairs that will only get worse as we plunge over the cliff edge that is Brexit.
 
The big problem is that the people 'in charge' live in their isolated little cocoons and don't give a damn about anyone but themselves.  So they cut services and freeze/limit pay rises claiming they need to save money but then happily take significantly above inflation pay-rises themselves.  Oh, and fiddle their expenses into the bargain!

[selby]

  I wonder if our  political elite would pull together on the same side if we sent a united message that we no longer require their services in parliament or the house of Lords. And cannot see the point of the costs they incur on the taxpayers.
  We are now all quite happy for the EU MP's to represent us in the Eu parliament in Brussels, and for our Laws to be set by the EU courts.
  Do  you think that the parties would speak with one voice.

[selby]

  Iateallthepies, there is nothing wrong with this Federation, just ask any German, steer clear of the Greeks and Italians though, and be careful with the Spanish and Portuguese.

[Not Now Kato]

  I wonder if our  political elite would pull together on the same side if we sent a united message that we no longer require their services in parliament or the house of Lords. And cannot see the point of the costs they incur on the taxpayers.
  We are now all quite happy for the EU MP's to represent us in the Eu parliament in Brussels, and for our Laws to be set by the EU courts.
  Do  you think that the parties would speak with one voice.

Of course they would - in self preservation of their own jobs, salaries and directorships!
 
As to our laws being set by Brussels....