Brexit Negotiations

[SydneyRover]

For any still wavering or any still dead set on leaving, please read this, please do not dismiss it as ''another guardian'' piece but read it and tell us where it is incorrect or does not stack up.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/22/the-guardian-view-on-the-tories-and-brexit-rage-against-the-facts

[The Red Baron]

  Sydney I voted to join, I voted to stay in because I new we would fudge it and our leaders are poor. I was fuming at the time and have regretted not having a vote on the Maastricht Treaty, that is when we should have had everything put to us to decide the future.
  Major and Cameron two idiots.

It's an important point about Maastricht. A referendum then would have been about the direction in which the train was travelling and we would have an opportunity to have a say about that. By 2016 it was a case of stay on the train or get off.

[The Red Baron]

Red Baron, genuine question... what exactly do you consider is wrong with a federation?  It seems to work for the US.

States in the USA were never independent nations though. I refer you to Yugoslavia.

[RedJ]

Red Baron, genuine question... what exactly do you consider is wrong with a federation?  It seems to work for the US.

States in the USA were never independent nations though. I refer you to Yugoslavia.

Texas might disagree...

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Comparing the EU to Yugoslavia, or to the USSR as Hunt and one idiot on here did recently is really rather silly. It doesn't help the discussion.

Anyone can leave the EU whenever they want. The EU isn't beholden to give them particularly advantageous terms, but that's about the extent of it. The EU is not going to imprison secessionist leaders or send tanks into the capitals of countries who discuss leaving. So making those kind of comparisons is stupid. And doesn't help the tone of the discussion. 

[hoolahoop]

  Red J anybody could do a better job. just as an aside, My father as many know was In Burma  during the war,and had a bad time, and came back to this country badly wounded and not knowing what sort of life he had in front of him. But he told me on his way home he had to travel via London, Coventry, and bizarrely through the worst of all Hull, he told me he cried along with others on the train, they realised that things had been just as bad at home.
  The country owed the U.S.A money they didn't pay back until this century, a million men were coming home to what,  a country where the cities were bombed flat, and an unknown future. but the countries leaders formed the NHS, nationalised the coal, steel, transport, docks, railways telephones  gas supplies and water. within seven years he with me and mum in tow moved into a brand new council house in Askern everyone was in work, miners sons had a pathway to university through education, the road infrastructure was being planned, new town centres, bridges, and hospitals built, plus many more things so much so that the prime minister within 12 years could turn to the country and say "You have never had it so good" to the population.
  That was because there was a generational thing to make things better, to improve life, and they also did a lot to rebuild Germany, France , Belgium etc. because they wanted to and could.
  Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. and worst of all, contrast the present politicians with Clement Attlee, Churchill, Bevan, who only did what they thought was the best for the country, they must all be turning in their  graves watching this circus.
  And god knows what happened to the ambition to achieve.

Hmm we have one or two things in common in that my dear old grandad was the father of 7 youngsters in the east end of London. He went to war and like your dad ended up as a proud owner of a Burma Star he eventually received in the 1980s, half a stomach from the deprivation and beatings, malaria and all sorts of skin conditions,  he received after years in a Japanese POW camp . He eventually  came home to a scattered family and a blown-up home.

He not only felt he had been forgotten but that his family had been forgotten for years . Perhaps only when his family had managed to get themselves settled in a 3 bedroom pre-fabricated council house for the 9 of them in early 1951could he breathe freely once  again.

I know little about his experiences despite spending many 1000s of hours in his company. What I do know is he never spent his life " hating " , he wasn't that sort of man - he was strong, brave but a modest man who loved his family , loved his country but recognised both the weaknesses and strengths of our country. He never once "claimed " we won the war or to my knowledge  hated a German or the Japanese though was wary of the former and always avoided talk if possible of the latter Japanese.

They were tough years for the whole world Selby and contrary to popular belief we didn't bail out the world, the world bailed out the world. People's of every nation trying to recover their lives, broken bodies, lost lives, communities lost forever , minorities wiped out by genocidal maniacs, cities blown up by atomic bombs, Dresden, Auschwitz, Burmese railroads, 100,000s of women raped by rampaging soldiers etc etc. Etc

However we not just the English, the British or the Yanks WE ALL  managed to rebuild this world, made it safer, educated , created, liberated, made it fairer, moved forward  all this could only be done by all of us dropping most if not all of our " exceptionalist " or xenophobic , mysogynistic attitudes.

You see my grandad and indeed my dad who served in Malaya during the communist uprisings would be appalled at your sweeping comments about our young people . Indeed my own daughter studies abroad and was In Auschwitz only this last Thursday ..... Do you know why these feckless / gap year kids are there or are trekking around the battlefields of Ypres or standing for services at the The Menon  memorial  ? so they don't go fecking backwards , so they learn from the mistakes of the past, so that they can ensure they DON'T happen again. So they can try and put prejudices aside.

I'm not ashamed to say that my daughter would never be able to afford to go but for the Erasmus + scheme. She's educating herself , I hope that she and her generation will not make the mistakes of the past. Do you know what she rooms with a Dane, Chinese , Italian, Norwegian and some Aussies. They learn to live together , learn from one another not sit in isolation.

I know only that my family, ALL her ancestors would be proud of her and the many like her who want to build a brighter future for everyone based on  the extraordinary people who prepared the path for them. People that swore not once but twice that it would be the last time ....Now it HAS to be the last time !

We should not be looking to blow up the path into the future by taking them back to those dark days. I wish my grandad could have met yours because you never know they may well have been mates and I'm sure they wouldn't want to pull our children back or divide and weaken them. I was loathe to post this as it's so personal but after much thought ; I think any youngsters on here should read a different narrative to the one you have laid before them.

The Empire has gone but not the individuality of our people. Our history is always there, our great people are written about and studied more often than not revered. They were at their most creative when they were at their most free and for some you would only equate that with being outwith our neighbours .
I believe that we are shrinking away from our destiny by following the path that leads to a possible cliff edge. 

" Contrast that with moaning you have stolen my future, while standing on the steps of an aeroplane at the start of their gap year, or laying on the floor bladdered on a Friday and Saturday night. "

Selby , I simply don't recognise the sweeping statements above of our young having met them and their international friends. I simply don't know whether to accept my experience of this young generation or the sweeping " Daily Express " fuelled comments that you seem to think exist.
If you don't mind I will stick with my former rather than your latter viewpoint of our young.

Hoola, it's admirable of you to give great praise to many of today's youngsters who make the most of their education, visit other countries, and learn about different people and different cultures; I admire them as well.

However, if you believe that all of today's young generation are like that, then you're living on a different planet to me; spice-heads, crack-heads, violent chavs, foul mouthed drunken women with tattooed necks wanting to fight everybody; that's the reality I see all around me; and no, I don't read the Daily Express or any other newspaper, because they all have left or right wing political agendas, every one of them. I form my opinions on what I see, and what I feel.

Yes sorry I do recognise that part of our society but  I hate the way everything seems to have been laid on the doorstep of the EU .
What worries me the most is that when you go on fb, read Twitter,  watch the politics ; it seems that this will all go away once we are impoverished and away from the EU. The two are incompatible totally incompatible . Like Devon/Cornwall, the North East, we in the Yorkshire & Humber Region have benefited from the EU and to my knowledge have not suffered from a  huge influx of foreigners 91.5% White British ( DMBC )

It pisses me off to hear the likes of Caroline Flint saying that " the people of Doncaster have not seen any benefit from their membership of the EU " on Andrew Neil's flagship show last week . Really ? - What were and still are all those blue boards with the European flag all round the DMBC an area recognised as " very poor " and in need of major Re- Development. Typical wtf has she been doing all these years and was it the fault of the Eu that Thatcher decimated our region or that we benefited from little or minimal  government  help in those subsequent Blair years .The reality and the narrative of these supposedly forgotten regions of the EU is picked up by lazy politicians and residents for that matter.

Scawsby, Selby these remarks are a generalisation not necessarily aimed at either of you - anyway we have a team to thrash 2-0 , still it's a night out for the turkey mackems. Yes YOU in the West Stand , I'm standing with you tonight so put the library books down !   

[i_ateallthepies]

Red Baron, genuine question... what exactly do you consider is wrong with a federation?  It seems to work for the US.

States in the USA were never independent nations though. I refer you to Yugoslavia.

I am genuinely interested to know what you consider to be wrong with a federation RB.  Your reply did nothing to answer that.

[hoolahoop]

Red Baron, genuine question... what exactly do you consider is wrong with a federation?  It seems to work for the US.

States in the USA were never independent nations though. I refer you to Yugoslavia.

I am genuinely interested to know what you consider to be wrong with a federation RB.  Your reply did nothing to answer that.

Yes I'm interested in that too , the folks Stateside our new brethren in t'other 50 States seem to manage to stay proud. Lol

[The Red Baron]

TRB

Comparing the EU to Yugoslavia, or to the USSR as Hunt and one idiot on here did recently is really rather silly. It doesn't help the discussion.

Anyone can leave the EU whenever they want. The EU isn't beholden to give them particularly advantageous terms, but that's about the extent of it. The EU is not going to imprison secessionist leaders or send tanks into the capitals of countries who discuss leaving. So making those kind of comparisons is stupid. And doesn't help the tone of the discussion. 

BST

Sorry, but you are missing the point. I was asked in the context of federal unions about the United States. I offered Yugoslavia as a counter example. I wasn't referring to leaving the EU at all. My original point was that if we'd had a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty then at least the EU's moves towards federalism could have been discussed openly.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Accepted TRB, but you could have chosen, say, the Federal Republic of Germany. Or The Union of Kalmar. Or Switzerland. Or the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Those were all highly successful examples of multi-national federations.

[bpoolrover]

Italy and many other countries are pretty much bankrupt, should uk France and Germany keep bailing the poorer counties out? Many countries in the eu have little if any money, at the minute that may be fine but let’s say other very poor countries join the eu, should it be a equal amount they contribute?

[SydneyRover]

Red Baron, genuine question... what exactly do you consider is wrong with a federation?  It seems to work for the US.

States in the USA were never independent nations though. I refer you to Yugoslavia.

Texas might disagree...

Alaska, Hawaii?

[wilts rover]

Italy and many other countries are pretty much bankrupt, should uk France and Germany keep bailing the poorer counties out? Many countries in the eu have little if any money, at the minute that may be fine but let’s say other very poor countries join the eu, should it be a equal amount they contribute?

Errr Blackpool I think you are getting a bit confused between the EU and the Eurozone. Countries in the EU but not in the Euro don't contribute to any bailouts.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277

[Not Now Kato]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/9qrx0n/robert_peston_a_shocked_cabinet_was_today_told_of/
 
[Robert Peston]

A shocked Cabinet was today told of Department of Transport contingency plans to own or lease roll-on roll-off lorry ferries to make sure vital supplies of goods, food and medicines continue to reach these shores if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.

According to work commissioned by Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, a possible French decision to reintroduce customs checks could reduce freight coming into the UK via Dover and the Channel Tunnel by around 85%.

So the UK would in those circumstances have to bring in vital imports to other ports such as the Port of London, Tilbury and Liverpool. The proposed scheme is called GOOL, or Government Owned or Operated Logistics.

“It’s the kind of stuff governments do in a time of war” said one member of the cabinet. “It is as serious as that”.
That said the best precedent for the plan was the creation by Clement Atlee’s Labour government in 1948 of the National Freight Corporation, which was originally known as British Road Services.

In the case of GOOL, three options are being examined: buying ships, leasing them or converting military vessels.
I am told the military option is thought to be the least viable.

“This was the bombshell in a meeting that contained lots of dull stuff” said another minister.

He added that perhaps it would be the “sobering moment” that showed colleagues why a no-deal Brexit would be “so damaging”.

The Cabinet were 'shocked'?

[RedJ]

Ah but all that was Project Fear wasn't it? Wasn't it??

[BillyStubbsTears]

"A possible French decision to reintroduce Customs checks".

Jesus f**king wept.

WE are leaving the EU.

WE have chosen to leave the Customs Union. 

WE have spent 2 years threatening Europe that we're prepared to leave without any agreement on customs and borders.

Of COURSE there will be customs checks reintroduced at Calais if we don't sort our shit out. That would be a WTO requirement.

This infantile moaning that it's every other f**kers' fault that we're blundering into bloody chaos is unbelievable.

And as you suggest NNK if the Cabinet were shocked, what the f**k have they been expecting to happen?

We are an utter laughing stock.

[SydneyRover]

Italy and many other countries are pretty much bankrupt, should uk France and Germany keep bailing the poorer counties out? Many countries in the eu have little if any money, at the minute that may be fine but let’s say other very poor countries join the eu, should it be a equal amount they contribute?

If the nutjobs in amongst the Tories get there way and push the UK out the UK could quite well be in a similar situation within 1 or decades and if there is another or bigger world recession it could arrive a whole lot sooner. Lots of people on this site would have had a ration book, lots here would not have been ''well off'' in the fifties early sixties, and if it does happen lots are going to have to buy a cap, because you may need to doff it if you want to keep your job under those circumstances.

[Herbert Anchovy]

"A possible French decision to reintroduce Customs checks".

Jesus f**king wept.

WE are leaving the EU.

WE have chosen to leave the Customs Union. 

WE have spent 2 years threatening Europe that we're prepared to leave without any agreement on customs and borders.

Of COURSE there will be customs checks reintroduced at Calais if we don't sort out shit out. That would be a WTO requirement.

This infantile moaning that it's every other f**kers' fault that we're blundering into bloody chaos is unbelievable.

And as you suggest NNK if the Cabinet were shocked, what the f**k have they been expecting to happen?

We are an utter laughing stock.

Goes back to what I’ve said before. Our Government are an utter shambles AND the EU (particularly the French) are determined to make life as difficult as possible for us. The British public are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Saying that, the French have been known to make life difficult for us while we’re in the EU too.

[RedJ]

Italy and many other countries are pretty much bankrupt, should uk France and Germany keep bailing the poorer counties out? Many countries in the eu have little if any money, at the minute that may be fine but let’s say other very poor countries join the eu, should it be a equal amount they contribute?

If the nutjobs in amongst the Tories get there way and push the UK out the UK could quite well be in a similar situation within 1 or decades and if there is another or bigger world recession it could arrive a whole lot sooner. Lots of people on this site would have had a ration book, lots here would not have been ''well off'' in the fifties early sixties, and if it does happen lots are going to have to buy a cap, because you may need to doff it if you want to keep your job under those circumstances.

If they get their way I suspect there won't much longer be a United Kingdom - certainly not one involving more than England and Wales...

[SydneyRover]

  Sydney I voted to join, I voted to stay in because I new we would fudge it and our leaders are poor. I was fuming at the time and have regretted not having a vote on the Maastricht Treaty, that is when we should have had everything put to us to decide the future.
  Major and Cameron two idiots.

It's an important point about Maastricht. A referendum then would have been about the direction in which the train was travelling and we would have an opportunity to have a say about that. By 2016 it was a case of stay on the train or get off.

Good point TRB, but no one here has really laid out the full case to say what is so bad about being a member, lots get their lines and stories wrong and mostly because of the shit being disgorged by disreputable MPs and media, and still (sorry to keep raising this point) no one with any credibility has ever laid out the advantages of leaving, because there are none that stand up to any scrutiny. One can just say ''I want to leave'' without reason and it would be valid, but what the hell for, just to have an argument?

Unless the way government is run in the UK changes, the government of the day is voted in to make decisions that should benefit the majority and help the country into the future, even if you get to vote on more policy it doesn't mean that you would necessarily like the outcomes, and that's what the govt' of the day did, and as many including me has said later Cameron abrogated responsibility and squibbed it and took a cowardly option. What has been said before the NE of the UK has benefited greatly with funds from the EU, if we leave it will revert to all the money being spent in the Sth East again.

What impresses me greatly is that coming from different points of view all those in this conversation generally discuss it in
a relatively civilised manner and I for one learn a great deal about things long forgotten or missed in the first place.

[The Red Baron]

Breaking: Theresa May has tonight announced that Tottenham Hotspur have been placed in charge of Brexit negotiations. She believes they will get us out of Europe in next to no time.   

[albie]

Some might be interested in the evidence on the export cost so far;
https://theconversation.com/brexit-has-already-hurt-eu-and-non-eu-exports-by-up-to-13-new-research-105334

Given that Leave did not tell voters that this was in prospect even before departure, it does look like a classic mis-selling scam.

We have a Trade Descriptions Act to prevent false marketing propaganda...just saying!

[Donnywolf]

Im not worried

Whatever is "agreed" there will be trouble in Parliament

In the end there will be a peoples vote on the "agreement".

There may be three options but I expect the third one will ask something like "or lets call the whole thing off"

I expect the Options 1 and 2 will be produce a split vote and that will let Option 3 "in"

We can then return to the place we were 3 years ago and wonder how we squandered all these years and Months and got nowhere

Then we (well not me personally) can get together collectively and push through Proportional Representation as the mainstream Politicians will have failed everyone - and should be replaced by a friendlier model !

[SydneyRover]

Finally the long suffering British public will be able to vote on this with hopefully if not all the facts (you can't help those that don't want to listen) at least most of them and infinitely more than with the first vote.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-final-say-new-vote-sign-petition-michel-barnier-a8603331.html

[bpoolrover]

1 million sign a petition out of 14 that voted remain and 30 million in total, maybe as many people are not as worried as you would imagine

[SydneyRover]

1 million sign a petition out of 14 that voted remain and 30 million in total, maybe as many people are not as worried as you would imagine

No matter what the evidence shows or what is un-covered/reported you never fail to disappoint bpool, 6 people walk into a bar in Harrogate, those that want brexit.

[bpoolrover]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

[DonnyOsmond]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

You agree with the tax dodging Etonian millionaires who want to make US poorer. Your opinion isn't valid.

[Herbert Anchovy]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

You agree with the tax dodging Etonian millionaires who want to make US poorer. Your opinion isn't valid.

Why isn’t his opinion valid?

[DonnyOsmond]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

You agree with the tax dodging Etonian millionaires who want to make US poorer. Your opinion isn't valid.

Why isn’t his opinion valid?

I feel like I already said why...