Brexit Negotiations

[Herbert Anchovy]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

You agree with the tax dodging Etonian millionaires who want to make US poorer. Your opinion isn't valid.

Why isn’t his opinion valid?

I feel like I already said why...

No, you said why you didn’t agree with him, not why his opinion is invalid. Are you saying his opinion is invalid because it’s not the same as yours?

[keith79]

We could keep voting till we decide to leave.

[Donnywolf]

Did you mean stay as we did decide to Leave ?

However as I asked earlier on up the Thread - when in 1975 we decided to join the EEC after a Trial Membership WE the people (not me I voted OUT) Voted by a Majority of 34% (67 ish to 33 ish) to JOIN

That is approx 11 times the Majority that Leave got (ONLY around a 3% Majority)

So I asked the question - when does the Democratic Vote of 1975 end ? For some of the Tory Party that was never respected and they fought again and again to overturn that decision made by a 34% Majority and YET now tell the losers (Remainers) that "the will of the British people"  - based on a 3% Majority - must be respected

Good for them - but I for one hope the Remainers win out in the long run

So I ask again - (anyone) - when does a Vote like 1975 lose its validity ?

[i_ateallthepies]

John, it ends when you get a spineless Tory politician who puts keeping his job ahead of the good of the people he was elected to represent.

[bpoolrover]

Are just about all politicians the same, are most people you work with not the same?

[RedJ]

f**king hell the amount of times you've said "all politicians are the same" as if that validates what you're trying to argue in any way.

[bpoolrover]

f**king hell the amount of times you've said "all politicians are the same" as if that validates what you're trying to argue in any way.

you have nothing to say apart from to swear In every sentence you write, does it make you feel big?

[RedJ]

f**king hell the amount of times you've said "all politicians are the same" as if that validates what you're trying to argue in any way.

you have nothing to say apart from to swear In every sentence you write, does it make you feel big?

I'm right though aren't I. You do always say how all politicians are supposedly the same as if it somehow validates your point.

[bpoolrover]

Are they not? Am I right that when you swear you feel like a big boy?

[RedJ]

Are they not? Am I right that when you swear you feel like a big boy?

No, they're not. And it is very lazy to say and assume that they are all the same.

[bpoolrover]

Not all no but the vast majority are, most lie promise what they can't deliver as long as it gets or keeps them in power that's all they are interested in imo.

[RedJ]

Really though? or are you just making a lazy assumption. As usual.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bpool

The very fact that there are huge disagreements between politicians on Brexit pretty much invalidates your point.

There are also huge difference between politicians on issues such as Austerity/public spending, foreign policy, tax policy, private ownership Vs nationalisation, civil liberties, climate change and many other issues.

It is childish to trot out the "they're all the same" line. They are not. Not by any measure.

The fact that most of the electorate don't engage with detailed nuanced argument is the reason why politicians make sweeping simplifications to get points across. So, back in 2010, the Tories won the Austerity debate because lines like "deficit denier" and "maxing out the country's credit card" were easy for people to agree with, while arguments based on Keynesian stimulus at the Lower Bound, or the Paradox of Thrift (although totally correct and of vital importance to the issue at hand and to the future prosperity of the country) take a lot of time and effort to digest.

If you have a gripe with politicians, it's worth reflecting on the thought that we probably get the politicians we deserve. 

[SydneyRover]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.

[albie]

Donny Wolf makes an interesting point about how long should a decision be respected?

Clearly 1975 is too long ago to be relevant in the future.

The issue is the rate of demographic change. The people who will be affected most are the younger voters, so why should they be bound by decisions taken by a generation who have passed?

The churn in the electorate is significant over 5 years.....over 10 years the difference is very important.
As the elderley tend to vote in a similar vein, likewise the young voters coming on to the role.

Renew the mandate every 10 years minimum, with up to 5 years a backstop on matters of great controversy.

[Donnywolf]

Good reply and I agree with what you say - it seems years ago since that Vote

However we cant surely hold another Referendum on joining the EU again in say 12 years time can we ?

And if we did and voted to re-enter the EU would the same schisms appear with the losing "Politicians" especially the Tory ones disrespecting that 2030 Vote too ?

I will be probably be long gone but a lot on here will have the answer to the question we all have now - have we voted the right way ?

[RedJ]

Weird, almost as if it has been years...

[albie]

The trouble with a referendum is that the question needs to be clear cut, and the main issues within that set out in an impartial way.

Neither of those criteria applied to the Brexit fiasco. Many folk were not voting for something (eg a Norway option), but just looking to make a protest about the self serving political class. Ironically giving the political opportunists the chance to game the vote for personal advancement.

The EU became a proxy for anger at things nothing to do with Europe.

A referendum can only give you a snapshot at a point in time, even if it was done properly.
Over time opinions change, and new possibilities emerge.

Personally I think a matter like EU membership needed to be presented as part of a developed political strategy, through a palette of options at a general election.

Taking a key decision without knowing the likely format of the new arrangement, let alone costs (and potential benefits) is just like pinning the tail on the donkey, wearing a blindfold.

[SydneyRover]

''Personally I think a matter like EU membership needed to be presented as part of a developed political strategy, through a palette of options at a general election.

Taking a key decision without knowing the likely format of the new arrangement, let alone costs (and potential benefits) is just like pinning the tail on the donkey, wearing a blindfold''

And you can thank Cameron the Weasel for that one.

[bpoolrover]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.

in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of course

[SydneyRover]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.

in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of course

Please respond to my statement that you can't get 2 million signatures.

1 million people have actually signed to say they don't want berkshit and 700,000 got off their backsides to physically show they don't want to go back to serfdom land and 6 people walked into a bar in Harrogate to show the world they mean business and want bullshit, and you bpool make a ''what if'' statement.

Brexit is about as convincing as colonising Mars if we make our world uninhabitable, Mars already is uninhabitable, why bother.

Tell me, as I and others keep asking what are the advantages of leaving the EU.

[Sprotyrover]

I agree with Sidney for once this petition is a good thing all it needs now is for another 17 million people to sign it, i.e. A dammed sight more than voted to leave!

[SydneyRover]

I agree with Sidney for once this petition is a good thing all it needs now is for another 17 million people to sign it, i.e. A dammed sight more than voted to leave!

Thanks Sproty I knew you cared, I think it needs a bit of relevance to show the import of such a huge protest and petition, how many other protests and petitions have gained such support?

[Herbert Anchovy]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.

in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of course

Please respond to my statement that you can't get 2 million signatures.

1 million people have actually signed to say they don't want berkshit and 700,000 got off their backsides to physically show they don't want to go back to serfdom land and 6 people walked into a bar in Harrogate to show the world they mean business and want bullshit, and you bpool make a ''what if'' statement.

Brexit is about as convincing as colonising Mars if we make our world uninhabitable, Mars already is uninhabitable, why bother.

Tell me, as I and others keep asking what are the advantages of leaving the EU.

Here’s one. Currently, under EU law, the U.K. (and every other member state) is not allowed to carry out wholesale nationalisation of the Railways as it requires governments to open up the rail services to the markets. Leaving the EU will allow us (if Labour win the next election I’d guess) to carry out a renationalisation programme. Something we can’t do presently. In my opinion that’s a tangible advantage of leaving the EU.

[Glyn_Wigley]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.

in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of course

Please respond to my statement that you can't get 2 million signatures.

1 million people have actually signed to say they don't want berkshit and 700,000 got off their backsides to physically show they don't want to go back to serfdom land and 6 people walked into a bar in Harrogate to show the world they mean business and want bullshit, and you bpool make a ''what if'' statement.

Brexit is about as convincing as colonising Mars if we make our world uninhabitable, Mars already is uninhabitable, why bother.

Tell me, as I and others keep asking what are the advantages of leaving the EU.

Here’s one. Currently, under EU law, the U.K. (and every other member state) is not allowed to carry out wholesale nationalisation of the Railways as it requires governments to open up the rail services to the markets. Leaving the EU will allow us (if Labour win the next election I’d guess) to carry out a renationalisation programme. Something we can’t do presently. In my opinion that’s a tangible advantage of leaving the EU.

The UK is the only EU country that doesn't have some form of state-owned passenger rail service company operating. Subsidiaries of the German and Dutch state rail companies actually operate franchises in the UK! And you think the EU won't let British government do it?

[SydneyRover]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.

in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of course

Please respond to my statement that you can't get 2 million signatures.

1 million people have actually signed to say they don't want berkshit and 700,000 got off their backsides to physically show they don't want to go back to serfdom land and 6 people walked into a bar in Harrogate to show the world they mean business and want bullshit, and you bpool make a ''what if'' statement.

Brexit is about as convincing as colonising Mars if we make our world uninhabitable, Mars already is uninhabitable, why bother.

Tell me, as I and others keep asking what are the advantages of leaving the EU.

Here’s one. Currently, under EU law, the U.K. (and every other member state) is not allowed to carry out wholesale nationalisation of the Railways as it requires governments to open up the rail services to the markets. Leaving the EU will allow us (if Labour win the next election I’d guess) to carry out a renationalisation programme. Something we can’t do presently. In my opinion that’s a tangible advantage of leaving the EU.

The UK is the only EU country that doesn't have some form of state-owned passenger rail service company operating. Subsidiaries of the German and Dutch state rail companies actually operate franchises in the UK! And you think the EU won't let British government do it?

So we could (govt' own) 99% of passenger rail if we wanted?

[Glyn_Wigley]

But it's nothing new Sydney, if I get 2 million people to sign a petition that they want brexit will you agree to it?

The point is bpool you can't, the tide has turned.

in what way is the tide turning, whatever social media you go on or ask people you know you will find very very few who have changed there mind, all that's happening is the people who voted remain are just becoming more vocal imo of course

Please respond to my statement that you can't get 2 million signatures.

1 million people have actually signed to say they don't want berkshit and 700,000 got off their backsides to physically show they don't want to go back to serfdom land and 6 people walked into a bar in Harrogate to show the world they mean business and want bullshit, and you bpool make a ''what if'' statement.

Brexit is about as convincing as colonising Mars if we make our world uninhabitable, Mars already is uninhabitable, why bother.

Tell me, as I and others keep asking what are the advantages of leaving the EU.

Here’s one. Currently, under EU law, the U.K. (and every other member state) is not allowed to carry out wholesale nationalisation of the Railways as it requires governments to open up the rail services to the markets. Leaving the EU will allow us (if Labour win the next election I’d guess) to carry out a renationalisation programme. Something we can’t do presently. In my opinion that’s a tangible advantage of leaving the EU.

The UK is the only EU country that doesn't have some form of state-owned passenger rail service company operating. Subsidiaries of the German and Dutch state rail companies actually operate franchises in the UK! And you think the EU won't let British government do it?

So we could (govt' own) 99% of passenger rail if we wanted?

We can have as much state-owned rail as we want, but it has to win a tender for any franchise alongside any other tenders from private companies under competition rules. Which is the best way to do it - it means no compulsory nationalisation and all the costs and negative publicity that entails, and it makes sure that a state-owned company IS the best option. The franchises can be for as many or as few as you want - several regions or one national monopoly - but private companies can't be denied the opportunity to compete for them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Herbert

That old canard keeps getting raised by Left supporters of Brexit.

It's wrong.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation

I wonder why they keep banging on about it?

[Herbert Anchovy]

Herbert

That old canard keeps getting raised by Left supporters of Brexit.

It's wrong.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation

I wonder why they keep banging on about it?

Billy

Under EU rules, the U.K. cannot fully nationalise the railways. It can part nationalise them, but not fully. The management of the infrastructure and the rail services have to be completely separate. This is why, in my original post I said that wholesale renationalisation of the railways is forbidden. Additionally, EU rules dictate that any rail route that has spare capacity or additional time slots for new services must be open to any rail operator to purchase.

These two rules mean that it’s impossible to create a unified and nationalised rail monopoly.

Interestingly, the EU has for sometime held up the UK’s private rail system as the perfect example of a nationwide private rail provision and has encouraged other member states to follow suit.

Also, I don’t believe anything that I read in the newspapers, whether it’s the Guardian or the Mail. They’ve all got their own agendas.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Herbert

That old canard keeps getting raised by Left supporters of Brexit.

It's wrong.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/30/experts-reject-labour-leavers-argument-brussels-nationalisation

I wonder why they keep banging on about it?

Billy

Under EU rules, the U.K. cannot fully nationalise the railways. It can part nationalise them, but not fully. The management of the infrastructure and the rail services have to be completely separate. This is why, in my original post I said that wholesale renationalisation of the railways is forbidden. Additionally, EU rules dictate that any rail route that has spare capacity or additional time slots for new services must be open to any rail operator to purchase.

These two rules mean that it’s impossible to create a unified and nationalised rail monopoly.

Interestingly, the EU has for sometime held up the UK’s private rail system as the perfect example of a nationwide private rail provision and has encouraged other member states to follow suit.

Also, I don’t believe anything that I read in the newspapers, whether it’s the Guardian or the Mail. They’ve all got their own agendas.

Two words: Iarnród Éireann