Brexit Negotiations

[Pancho Regan]

We have bumbled into this without any comprehension of what we wanted from it, still less how to achieve that.

Which is the consequence of letting the public decide on such a crucial and complex issue, without anything like a clear explanation of the possible outcomes.

It is a complete and utter shambles.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Apologies. I obviously misunderstood your 10:35 and 10:46 posts.

What DO you think would be the desirable outcome then?

[DonnyOsmond]

It'll either end up a no deal or a People's Vote to see what kind of Brexit the people want which MPs should back whatever outcome. With a GE there will still be splits in parties and nothing will ever get through.

[Boomstick]

Apologies. I obviously misunderstood your 10:35 and 10:46 posts.

What DO you think would be the desirable outcome then?

You mis-intetpreted them to suit you agenda.

To answer your question.
Re-negotiation.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No BS. I didn't. It was a simple and honest mistake. Why on earth would I try to twist your words to suit some agenda? That would be very silly, because you could point out the correct situation and I'd be left looking stupid.

Anyway. Re-negotiate WHAT?

Re-negotiation is a means to an end, not an end in itself?

What outcome would you want to see?

I'll make it simpler, because that is a very wide question.

Would you be prepared to accept us remaining tied into the structure of the Customs Union, and therefore unable to make independent trade deals with other countries?

[DonnyOsmond]

Apologies. I obviously misunderstood your 10:35 and 10:46 posts.

What DO you think would be the desirable outcome then?

You mis-intetpreted them to suit you agenda.

To answer your question.
Re-negotiation.

What deal do you genuinely think would be accepted and win a majority?

[Herbert Anchovy]

HA

Yep. Organised, principled, consistent. That's the way they've approached the negotiation.

Whereas we have been a clusterf**k of shambolic amateurs.

Billy,

You cannot be serious!

Even Politicians from Germany and Italy have criticised the EU negotiating stance during the negotiations, so I’m not sure where you’ve got this idea from.

[BillyStubbsTears]

What criticisms are you referring to?

[Boomstick]

No BS. I didn't. It was a simple and honest mistake. Why on earth would I try to twist your words to suit some agenda? That would be very silly, because you could point out the correct situation and I'd be left looking stupid.

Anyway. Re-negotiate WHAT?

Re-negotiation is a means to an end, not an end in itself?

What outcome would you want to see?

I'll make it simpler, because that is a very wide question.

Would you be prepared to accept us remaining tied into the structure of the Customs Union, and therefore unable to make independent trade deals with other countries?

Fair enough,
And no, I wouldn't accept that in a million years.

I can see the trap your trying to push me into here .....

[Herbert Anchovy]

Here’s my idea of what COULD happen:

From what I can see, the deal won’t get through parliament, so it’s either going to necessitate a general election or 2nd vote. May will avoid a GE because she’ll lose. So 2nd vote it is. Remain will win, she will lose a no confidence vote, this we’ll see Boris as leader. In the meantime the Brexit side will become galvanised, make huge gains in the Euro elections and protest for another referendum. Boris will grant that and the whole sorry cycle begins again.

I wonder at which point the nation accepts the result?

[Not Now Kato]

I've been watching her statement to the house today. In truth, it was like watching a one legged woman in an arse kicking contest.

[Not Now Kato]

And another one resigns!!

ayep.  Now Esther McVey. There's not going to be many left at this rate!

Horrible woman good riddence

Do you think she'll need some help with her Universal Credit application?

I hope she can explain what she’s being doing to find work since 10am 😀😀

http://newsthump.com/2018/11/15/esther-mcvey-now-subject-to-benefit-sanctions-after-voluntarily-resigning-from-her-job/
 

[Herbert Anchovy]

What criticisms are you referring to?

Italian Interior Minister Matteo Salvoni accused the EU of “not conducting Brexit talks in good faith”.

German interior Minister Horst Seehoffer complained to the EU that it’s dogmatic approach to Brexit, particularly around security risked putting lives at risk.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BS

Its strange to call facing up to facts "a trap", but I'm guessing you've seen your problem.

If you don't accept that, then by definition you've just said you want No Deal.

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

Well yes. Two deeply euro-sceptic politicians, one of them a senior member of a quasi-fascist party criticise the EU. Not a massive surprise.

[Axholme Lion]

Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.

[bobjimwilly]

Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.

You haven't taken your pills today, have you?

[Herbert Anchovy]

Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.

Don’t buy any European products again? Wouldn’t we all starve?

[Not Now Kato]

Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.

Don’t buy any European products again? Wouldn’t we all starve?

Yep, and we'd all be driving round in Nissan Micra's

[Axholme Lion]

Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.

Don’t buy any European products again? Wouldn’t we all starve?

Here's a revolutionary idea for you; BUY BRITISH! It worked for years and funnily enough we all had jobs...

[Herbert Anchovy]

HA

Well yes. Two deeply euro-sceptic politicians, one of them a senior member of a quasi-fascist party criticise the EU. Not a massive surprise.

Billy,

Whatever their political persuasion, they are senior politicians and seem to disagree with your opinion.

[Boomstick]

BS

Its strange to call facing up to facts "a trap", but I'm guessing you've seen your problem.

If you don't accept that, then by definition you've just said you want No Deal.

Nope, I want a good deal. But if the EU are being too awkward, then we should walk away with no deal.

[Herbert Anchovy]

Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.

Don’t buy any European products again? Wouldn’t we all starve?

Here's a revolutionary idea for you; BUY BRITISH! It worked for years and funnily enough we all had jobs...

Do we produce enough in the UK to only buy British?

[BillyStubbsTears]

That is some way from providing evidence that the EU negotiators haven't been professional, consistent and principled though.

They set three red lines at the start. They have stuck to them.

[Axholme Lion]

Treason May didn't even wait a week until after Armistice day before surrendering to the EUSSR.
If this joke gets passed we are doomed forever to be slaves to the EU dictatorship.
The only sane option is to leave with no deal as we voted for two years ago.
If this gets passed then no-one should ever buy any European product ever again.

Don’t buy any European products again? Wouldn’t we all starve?

Here's a revolutionary idea for you; BUY BRITISH! It worked for years and funnily enough we all had jobs...

Do we produce enough in the UK to only buy British?

Well if we don't it presents a great opportunity for new businesses going forwards.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BS

Yes. We all want a good deal.

The problem is that if you leave the CU, you've screwed up the Irish border. And the EU has said consistently that that is a red line and they won't give us preferential terms if that line is crossed.

So, your position is illogical. You can't leave the CU (or something close to it) and get a good deal.

That's fine. You, personally, choose a No Deal outcome (we got there eventually). That's your prerogative. But that is not what was offered in 2016. And it's an outcome supported by a small minority of the UK.

So, as I said, it would be THE most undemocratic outcome.

[Herbert Anchovy]

That is some way from providing evidence that the EU negotiators haven't been professional, consistent and principled though.

They set three red lines at the start. They have stuck to them.

Billy,

It’s ample evidence. Leading politicians in Europe, one in probably the most Europhile country in Europe criticised the EU attitude to the negotiation! I’m really not sure what else you want!

[BillyStubbsTears]

AL

Yep. There'd be great opportunities.

But that takes time. And we'd be starting from a position where we'd just lost about 10% of our economic activity. Immediately.

Do you know what the effect of that would be?

Even the most ardent Hard Brexiters accept that it would take many, many years for us to claw that lost ground back.

Do you want us to lose the entire budget of the NHS for a decade or more? Or the entire Transport, Defence and Education budgets? Do you want us to be £150-200bn poorer every year for the next decade? £20-30k out of pocket for every man woman and child in the country?

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

Flip it round. If Boris Johnson and Michael Gove asserted something, would you said that settled the argument?

[Herbert Anchovy]

HA

Flip it round. If Boris Johnson and Michael Gove asserted something, would you said that settled the argument?
[/quote

So your stance is that you’ll only accept the views of politicians that you agree with?