Brexit Negotiations

[SydneyRover]

Herbert

No. I'm not having that. You haven't provided anything to contradict what I said.

The EU-27 agreed a negotiating position on the three major issues.

Ireland
Budget
Rights of EU citizens in Britain

They told us at the start that those were red lines and without agreement on those issues, there could be no deal for us to ease the pain of Brexit. That has been very consistently adhered to by the professional, consistent and principled negotiators. There have been no major changes in what the EU told us at the start were red lines, and no other red lines introduced.

We, on the other hand, have been ducking and diving and changing our line on a regular basis.

What you were doing was giving examples of a couple of politicians who disagreed with the EU's negotiating position, not providing evidence that they had used it in an unprincipled, unprofessional or inconsistent way.

Billy,

I didnt expect you to have it! You come across as being completely unwilling to accept any criticism of the EU in any respect!

I’ve given you 3 examples where the EU had been dogmatic and unprincipled and you’re completely dismissing them because they don’t suit your narrative!

For the record I agree that our stance to negotiations had been shambolic, incompetent and not thought through but you really should understand that one side is not completely responsible for this

Sorry to be a fly in your ointment HA but Britain/Cameron is completely responsible for all of it.

We for whatever reasons up to the referendum joined the EU and continuously negotiated various options and position across a whole host subjects and signed off on the same, contracted locked in.

Now via the referendum we want out all this has to be de-negotiated but as with any broken contract there are penalties and possibly non-negotiable parts. That the government didn't explain (or didn't know, more likely) to the people of Britain the consequences or options pre or post referendum fully at any time speaks volumes about the competency or duplicity or both of this government. It would be spurious/facetious to cry foul about the position of the EU negotiators when their position has been known from the start, if you sold your house/anything to another, condition as-is with a contract setting out the conditions of sale would you then allow the other party to renegotiate the contract after they had taken out an option to buy?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well this is interesting.

https://mobile.twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1063093296887676930

If there was no truth in what Bradshaw was asking, why on earth did May not just say "No"?

Her answer was bizarre. He wasn't asking anything about the current criminal investigation.

[SydneyRover]

''Nothing could be worse than the Brexit deal struck by Mrs May, the most duplicitous prime minister in my lifetime''

the black black black blackest of jet black kettles calls out the pot.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/15/nothing-could-worse-brexit-deal-struck-mrs-may-weakest-duplicitous/

[GazLaz]

Wilts

I think young Rory has just inadvertently captured the core of current Conservative politics.

"I'm producing a number to illustrate what I believe."

One couldn't make it up. HE could, obviously, but no one else could.

She said “He got the runs in the end”, which is ironic because she is in the shit.

[Not Now Kato]

I think this young lady, explaining the current state of Brexit to deaf people, has it spot on....
 
https://mobile.twitter.com/Pottell/status/1063057301635059717
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nice to see the Govt is keeping up standards.

Six months after Amber Rudd was forced into resigning after the clusterf**k of telling 70-odd year-old Jamaicans that they were going to have to go "home" after 60 years in the UK, she's brought back into the Cabinet.

And I'm quite up on politics, but i have literally never heard of the new Brexit Secretary. It has the feel of a manager being promoted from a National League side to a Champions League side because there was no one else who wanted the job.

[wilts rover]

Quite apt that she has been appointed on the day the UN have critisised the Tory government for their cruel and callous policies - work Amber is perfectly qualified for and entirely able to continue delivering.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye.

Have to give some credit to Tory MPs though. One of them came out with the quote of the year when he heard that Gove wasn't resigning despite being fully against the Brexit deal.

He said Gove's continuing wrestling match with his conscience constituted the longest unbeaten winning streak in history.

[SydneyRover]

Treeza?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

[albie]

Ah, Gove!

Now there is a principled man. Prepared to put the country first, and set aside all career considerations.

Turned down the job of Brexit Secretary yesterday, because he could not go back and re-negotiate Treeza's Chequers fudge.

Next day, loyally behind Treez supporting her in her efforts to flog a dead horse to the HoC.

Amber "Gambler" Rudd......or should I say the disgraced Amber Rudd. Today sticking up for the Treeza proposal, then admitting she has not actually read the long document.

Tremendous talent to have an opinion about something you have not read. It's a gift!

What a guy, and what a gal!

[Not Now Kato]

This chap sums it up nicely....    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0-pW8k9NRk

[Not Now Kato]

How many brexiteers does it take to change a light bulb?

One to promise a brighter future and the rest to screw it up...

[Herbert Anchovy]

If, for whatever reason, the UK does not leave the EU what effect, if any, does this have on the nature of democracy?

Genuine question

[Donnywolf]

Joking aside I see that Democracy as I have known and lived through needs revamping. I have banged on about PR for a couple of years and believe it is the way forward because it would remove the extremism that comes either by the Tories and their Capitalism or Labour and their Socialism

Answering your question directly, although this is my (possibly flawed) opinion if there was a rerun or a peoples vote on whatever Agreement they eventually arrive at AND the Vote was reversed there would be "hell on" notably from those who wanted out - but as Mrs DW keeps telling me off for we voted in 1975 by 34% Majority to stay in the EEC / Common Market after a trial 2 year run - so I did ask before how long a period should elapse before the current Electorate "p**s all over the wishes of those people. Remember only about 3% Majority this time round voted to leave so 10 times more voted for "Remain" in 75

What I do think would happen is the Politicians would blame the pressure of the devisive Vote and the call for another Vote and so absolve themselves of all blame (as they always do - think of things like Unemployment rocketing and what do they say - ah that was what we inherited and have put steps in to address it - whichever Party is in power).

May does not want to be the one to get blamed for a Second Vote and stopping us getting out of the EU no more that Corbyn does so imho they will let us have another Vote and if it says "stay" they will blame us for giving them no choice - and they will say it is the will of the People and that needs to be respected
Tosh - get PR in NOW please

[wilts rover]

If, for whatever reason, the UK does not leave the EU what effect, if any, does this have on the nature of democracy?

Genuine question

If it is done by the people because it is the will of the people - then it confirms the power and legitamcy of democracy

If it done by politicians against the will of the people - then it stores up a lot of trouble that could have very serious consequences

Unhelpful answer...

[drfchound]

Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Here is a question for our resident specialist political posters.
I keep hearing that we have three options available to us, one being a new referendum.
If it did go to another vote and somehow turned out to still be “leave” what would the situation be then.
Obviously we would still proceed with leave but what would then happen about a deal or no deal.
Would it be any different from the position it is currently.

The question wouldn't be just 'Leave' though. It'd be for a specific version of 'Leave'.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The obvious thing would be to have a transferrable vote.

Three options.

1) Leave with No Deal
2) Leave May's deal
3) Remain.

You put a No 1 at the side of the outcome you most want, and a 2 at the side of your second choice.

All the No1s are totted up. If any option gets 50%, that's it. Otherwise, you eliminate the one with fewest No1s and reallocate all their No2s. Then one of the remaining 2 has won.

I cannot see any possible complaints against that.

It is:
Fair
Simple
Democratic.

So f**king obvious that I can't for the life of me thing why Corbyn was spouting confused bullshit this morning: when asked how he would vote in another referendum, he rambled about how it wasn't clear what the question would be.

Almost like he wants....

...no, that can't be right. He's an honest and principled politician who never ducks and dives.

[drfchound]

Thanks for that reply BST, a good and honest point of view.
I haven’t seen anyone on the political stage suggest anything like that.
As for Mr Corbin, I also haven’t seen him answer properly a question he doesn’t like.

Bearing in mind your suggestion, why is another simple leave or remain referendum being spoken about then.

[Herbert Anchovy]

A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced

[drfchound]

A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced

Are you saying that a second vote could get us out of this mess, IF the result was remain and therefore we go back to what we have had as an EU member.

[Glyn_Wigley]

A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced

Are you trying to tell us a vote by the electorate that has a different result to a previous vote by the electorate is undemocratic...just because it's different?

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

Please explain why the vote I suggest would be unfair or undemocratic.

It seems undeniable to me that in the 2016 vote, no-one knew what Brexit meant. I say that, because now, 29 months later, we STILL don't know what Brexiters means. It could be a No Deal Brexit. Or it could be the May Deal Brexit.

But thats the point. The binary vote in 2016 was a false premise. People voted Leave for all sorts of different reasons and wanted all sorts of different outcomes. But, if there's no further opportunity to vote, then each and every one of those Leave votes will have been interpreted as supporting the Leave that we finally get.

How on earth is that some democratic ideal?

NOW, we have far more clarity. We know what the real options are. So it seems to me that NOT having the vote I suggest would be the real undemocratic outrage.

Am I missing something obvious? Is there a reason why this proposed vote would be undemocratic and the 2016 vote is as good as it's ever going to get?

[DonnyOsmond]

A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced

I refuse to vote at the next General Election because I voted Conservative before and we must stay forever as a Conservative government or its undemocratic!

[RedJ]

I suppose we're STILL ignoring the fact that Russia was meddling with the referendum, and that illegally harvested data was used to try and swing the vote.

But no, you're right, having a second vote is definitely undemocratic in the face of all that.

[Donnywolf]

HA

Please explain why the vote I suggest would be unfair or undemocratic.

It seems undeniable to me that in the 2016 vote, no-one knew what Brexit meant. I say that, because now, 29 months later, we STILL don't know what Brexiters means. It could be a No Deal Brexit. Or it could be the May Deal Brexit.

But thats the point. The binary vote in 2016 was a false premise.

NOW, we have far more clarity. We know what the real options are. So it seems to me that NOT having the vote I suggest would be the real undemicratic outrage.

Am I missing something obvious? Is there a reason why this proposed vote would be undemocratic?

That to me sums it up in a nutshell. The question should never have been asked in the first Place - and should not have been phrased as it was either.

A simple Remain or Leave question when in truth though we had an idea what Remain meant - more of what we had lived through or in some cases "endured" or a chance to Leave. However as we all know and most admit we just did not know and still dont what Leave actually means - what it might cost us - what the upsides and the downsides are. People may have a but better idea but in truth I like facts - and most of what I see and have seen before the vote and since is "guesstimates" and supposition of what might happen

That to be fair is still coming from both sides of the debate and the ones who are supposed to know the answers (our Elected Representatives - MPs etc) threw the decision over to us who (if like me know next to F.A.) who were then supposed to make a logical decision - and I have said before we should never have got a say

[Bentley Bullet]

For right or wrong, a vote is a vote. It always has been. Votes have often turned out to be wrong. Votes are not quizzes where you get asked a two choices question and get told if you were right or wrong after you've handed it in.

My vote is that if we overrule the referendum result it will give democracy a dangerous new direction.

[RedJ]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681

So, Leavers, would a second vote have been undemocratic in these circumstances? because you know they'd have kept agitating.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB
But that is entirely avoiding the point I made up the page.

The Referendum WAS a two-choice question on a subject that wasn't a two-choice question.

I'm bemused by how many people are clinging to this as some sort of totem of democracy that must never be questioned.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ah, Nigel, Nigel, Nigel.

"But he said there would be resentment, particularly in the Conservative Party, if not, with claims the referendum will not have been a fair contest."

What's that term for the way in which some people most virulently criticise in others what they are most guilty of themselves?

Nigel. Complaining about an unfair vote. When he knew at that time that his Leave.EU organisation was being illegally funded by the Kremlin. AND, we have found out this weekend that Leave.EU was working with Steve Bannon to illegally securing funding from US investors who had an interest in Brexit.

There are laws about preventing foreign funding of political campaigns for very good reasons. To prevent us from being enticed into outcomes that are in the interests of bad actors from overseas. It's crystal clear that Nigel's Leave.EU ride a coach and horses through those laws.

But we mustn't question 2016 vote because that would be utterly undemocratic