Come on, chaps...

[The Red Baron]

... you didn't think we'd win that one, did you? The attendance today- over 30,000- showed why we can't compete at this level. Not with crowds of 7-8,000, but not even if we packed out the Keepmoat every week.

We've done well to last four seasons in the Championship, but reality has caught up with us. In hindsight, we might have been better to have taken our medicine 12 months ago, rebuilt under SO'D (or a new manager) and there might now be a lot more optimism on here. The McKay plan was probably worth a gamble, but it hasn't provided the quality of player we needed. Yes, we've had some big names who have done well for us- Beye, Diouf and to a lesser extent Chimbonda- but the \"stars of the future\" have not materialised. And we haven't managed to sell a single one on.

Next season we need to start afresh, preferably with a new manager and a radically-changed squad of players (a much younger squad, I think) and accept that the best we can hope for is a season of consolidation in League One.

But for those who want to cling on to a bit of hope, if we win on Tuesday and Friday we will be above Coventry and Bristol City without either of them kicking a ball in anger. So it isn't quite over yet, though the realist in me tells me it is time to look forward, not back.

[Chris Black come back]

Lots of good stuff in there TRB but two fundamental points worth raising in response:

1. Whilst the McKay policy is hardly a bedrock of stability - and some of the players as you say have not been A1 - we have been crap, inconsistent and lacking in fight since January 2011. Our existing players (both under SOD and Saunders) have not produced the required goods, again and again.

2. We have only won 2 solitary games in the last three months. There are six weeks of the season left. We are highly unlikely on this form to win the games necessary to stay up. Whilst there are other crap teams down at the bottom who also keep losing n a very regular basis, the truth is that we just don't have the ability to catch up with them. This, as someone once said, is the FACT.

[CusworthRovers]

To the Regiment!!!

You see for me after Wembley, and the sad f**k I am, my first thoughts were 'relegation is coming'. Make no mistake nothing was more certain and it was always a case of when. With that mindset, I was always on to a psychological winner.

I think JR did the right thing pre 'Going for the Championship' by enrolling TB/DW, as that was the way forward to maybe last more than 1 season. Indeed the initial euphoria of first season bliss looked promising off the field. Hell, with what were decent crowds then, plus TB/DW, there's no wonder JR was talking up the Premiership when the results turned around.

The rot started in the 2nd season and started off field with the drop in ST's, when I suspected off the field we were expecting it to continue or at least sustain. The momentum that was going at such an alarming rate had now slowed down and suddenly DRFC were starting to go backwards and find it's true level.

The people didn't come (why is another debate), the new money men got nervy no doubt. However we continued and all looked good on and off the field.

Again, in a 3rd season, crowds went down, people didn't come. DRFC was again going backwards and expectedly so, in trying to find it's level. More nerves in the boardroom.

All the time Sean is wanting to maintain or build a squad and that costs Championship money. The strain was getting larger and larger until it snapped and we are where we are now.


Me, I've had a f**king fantastic time in the Championship. Thanks John. Thanks Sean, and all the players who I saw.

Me, I'm happy that we've put the name DRFC on the map. I'm happy that we've actually increased our fan base and ST holders massively.

Me, I have no qualms about L1 nor L2. Going back to L1 is like going back to my old friends. Don't get me wrong, I'd love us to stay up, but in the right circs and not in spite of my clubs longer term good.

Let your dream go now John, you've done it and gone well beyond our wildest dreams. Let Doncaster get back to it's new level now and fight on even terms in that arena. We've got a decent stadium, we've increased the fan base, we increased brand DRFC. In one sense the job is done.

As for on field, well I've never shouted about it as it's not needed, but

1. The biggest mistake this club made was sacking Sean and no argument and nothing on here, written by anyone has convinced me otherwise. There's no point arguing it to death now and in these times.

2. The 2nd mistake was the new structure. It's doomed to fail and always will. Again, no argument and nothing on here, written by anyone has convinced me otherwise.

[Sheepskin Stu]

To the Regiment!!!

You see for me after Wembley, and the sad fcuk I am, my first thoughts were 'relegation is coming'. Make no mistake nothing was more certain and it was always a case of when. With that mindset, I was always on to a psychological winner.

I think JR did the right thing pre 'Going for the Championship' by enrolling TB/DW, as that was the way forward to maybe last more than 1 season. Indeed the initial euphoria of first season bliss looked promising off the field. Hell, with what were decent crowds then, plus TB/DW, there's no wonder JR was talking up the Premiership when the results turned around.

The rot started in the 2nd season and started off field with the drop in ST's, when I suspected off the field we were expecting it to continue or at least sustain. The momentum that was going at such an alarming rate had now slowed down and suddenly DRFC were starting to go backwards and find it's true level.

The people didn't come (why is another debate), the new money men got nervy no doubt. However we continued and all looked good on and off the field.

Again, in a 3rd season, crowds went down, people didn't come. DRFC was again going backwards and expectedly so, in trying to find it's level. More nerves in the boardroom.

All the time Sean is wanting to maintain or build a squad and that costs Championship money. The strain was getting larger and larger until it snapped and we are where we are now.


Me, I've had a fcuking fantastic time in the Championship. Thanks John. Thanks Sean, and all the players who I saw.

Me, I'm happy that we've put the name DRFC on the map. I'm happy that we've actually increased our fan base and ST holders massively.

Me, I have no qualms about L1 nor L2. Going back to L1 is like going back to my old friends. Don't get me wrong, I'd love us to stay up, but in the right circs and not in spite of my clubs longer term good.

Let your dream go now John, you've done it and gone well beyond our wildest dreams. Let Doncaster get back to it's new level now and fight on even terms in that arena. We've got a decent stadium, we've increased the fan base, we increased brand DRFC. In one sense the job is done.

As for on field, well I've never shouted about it as it's not needed, but

1. The biggest mistake this club made was sacking Sean and no argument and nothing on here, written by anyone has convinced me otherwise. There's no point arguing it to death now and in these times.

2. The 2nd mistake was the new structure. It's doomed to fail and always will. Again, no argument and nothing on here, written by anyone has convinced me otherwise.

*applause*

A great summary there CR.

[The Red Baron]

Lots of good stuff in there TRB but two fundamental points worth raising in response:

1. Whilst the McKay policy is hardly a bedrock of stability - and some of the players as you say have not been A1 - we have been crap, inconsistent and lacking in fight since January 2011. Our existing players (both under SOD and Saunders) have not produced the required goods, again and again.

2. We have only won 2 solitary games in the last three months. There are six weeks of the season left. We are highly unlikely on this form to win the games necessary to stay up. Whilst there are other crap teams down at the bottom who also keep losing n a very regular basis, the truth is that we just don't have the ability to catch up with them. This, as someone once said, is the FACT.

I agree with point 2, but as someone said, while there's life there's hope. The only way we can stay up now is either (a) two of the teams just above us going into administration or (b) the most amazing sequence of results in the history of professional sport, let alone English football.

Point 1- as I said, given where we found ourselves then the plan offered by Willie McKay was probably worth a punt. However, it was a poor substitute for the decisive action that should have been taken much earlier. With hindsight, maybe SO'D was too loyal to a group of players who had been part of our success but had (for various reasons) lost their edge. Of course we don't know if he wanted to replace these players, but didn't have the funds available to do so. But now I'm looking back, not forward.

[Donnywolf]

...and more praise from me for each of the above posts. Realism is here

We are not Man Utd and never will be but neither hopefully will we be a Rochdale with only 2 promotions from Div 4 in their history.

I personally WAS around (like JR) when we last tasted the heady heights of Div 2 and hopefully the younger fans today will not have to wait as long as I did for a return .... so well posted again TRB and CR

[SiBo]

Agree TRB, only one further point to raise, do we absolutely know it was SOD who was being loyal to the players? Remember how defiant JR got when other clubs were being linked with our 'star' players? Just a few things I've read and been told over the past couple of months that have reinforced my belief that SOD alone can't be held entirely accountable for the wage bill we ended up with.

[The Red Baron]

To the Regiment!!!



The rot started in the 2nd season and started off field with the drop in ST's, when I suspected off the field we were expecting it to continue or at least sustain. The momentum that was going at such an alarming rate had now slowed down and suddenly DRFC were starting to go backwards and find it's true level.


Me, I have no qualms about L1 nor L2. Going back to L1 is like going back to my old friends. Don't get me wrong, I'd love us to stay up, but in the right circs and not in spite of my clubs longer term good.


The biggest mistake this club made was sacking Sean and no argument and nothing on here, written by anyone has convinced me otherwise. There's no point arguing it to death now and in these times.

Excellent post there Cussy- you put it a lot better than me. Three things (above) worth highlighting.

1. You're right that the decline in ST sales for 2009/10 was a big turning point- and no-one seems to know quite why they dropped so markedly. A shame no-one at the club had the sense to try to find out.

2. I've no fear of League One as I knew we'd be back there one day. I just hope we have a plan for dealing with it when we get there.

3. SO'D. I'd like to have seen him given the chance to rebuild the squad in League One, and let's face it, we're no better off in terms of league placing than if we'd kept faith with him. I wonder if he regrets not taking the Sheff United job back in December 2010? It all seems to have been downhill for him and for DRFC since then.

[Jonathan]

If this thread was representative of the forum as a whole it would be a far more worthwhile place to visit and contribute to.

I've got my own opinions on the current managerial structure within the club, but yesterday's result was certainly no watershed moment. I've always been a believer in looking at sequences of results in context rather than simply removing the variables and forming all conclusions on win, lose or draw. Anybody that genuinely thought we should go to Southampton and win probably needs to have a look at their own expectations.

The liklehood is that we're going down now and it's far more important to look to the future. I don't think the experiment has worked in any way, shape of form. It hasn't captured the imagination of the public, the crowds aren't responding, only Fortune has gone on to any kind of success and his loan was cut short as a result. Several of the players we have brought in can't even get into a team that the manager constantly berates for having a losing mentality. I'm not convinced that the wage bill has been significantly reduced and we have been in relegation form since the change, not just before it.

Continued speculation about what might have otherwise been is futile and divisive. Let's just end this game and look to the future. It may be that we have to adjust to some level of stability again rather than constantly chasing promotion, but we are where we are. The club will need to live within its means and there could be some tough times, but many of us have been through far worse.

If, as expected, we are playing in League One next season then the primary objective must be to stay in that division, and get some kind of spirit back within the club - on and off the pitch. It's sadly lacking in both areas at the moment but we're not beyond repair.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Excellent contrubutions from the usual suspects. And f**k knows it makes a change from listening to pre-pubescent hissy fits on here.

Just two points to add to the debate.

1) Jonathan. Since the Saunders/McKay experiment started, we have achieved an almost perfectly consistent 1 point per game. That would not be relegation form most seasons, and emphatically not this season. If we DO go down, it's those grim first 7 games that killed us. And that is NOT entirely a dig at O'Driscoll, just a statement of fact. O'Driscoll had a shite run of luck, although it was on his watch that we ended up without a keeper, centre half or attacking alternative to Sharp that was better than lower Div 1 standard, so he does bear a good part of the blame.

2) I'm somewhat disconcerted at how quickly folk have chucked the towel in. I'm reminded of Penney in 04-05 and 05-06 stating in early March that we had no chance if making the play offs, f**king about with the side, losing half a dozen points, then missing out on the play offs by half a dozen points.

We still have a decent chance of staying up, if only because there are three other w**k sides in this league. I'll reiterate that 40-42 points will stay up this season. Beat Pompey, pick up another 2-3 points from spawns draws and we go into the Coventry game with our destiny in our own hands.

Gentlemen. To the trenches.

[Chris Black come back]

49% of me thinks that we still have a chance but 51% thinks that we simply no longer have the psychological ability to actually go out and WIN games - holding out for draws maybe but actually putting teams to the sword, I think that has gone some considerable time ago. I honestly think that the ability to push results over the line has gone and that the vast majority of our players are mentally scarred, with that damage inflicted pretty much since the Sheff Utd game last January. The only solution if you take this view is a wholesale rebuilding of the squad, which is likely to be one minor positive development of our impending relegation.

[Chris Black come back]

Just checked: since drawing with Sheff United on 3 January 2011 we have played a total of 62 games in the Championship and won only 9 games, which is just about 1 win every 7 games. That is on any objective measure absolutely shite.

[Chris Black come back]

And a final point: of those 9 games we have won, only ONE game has been won by more than a single goal (3-1 away at Derby on 1 March).

Crap.

[roverstillidie91]

To your point 2

we didnt end up signing Joe murphy cos coventry could offer us more

and we also didnt get Shackell.. again due to wages

and its highly unlikely we could afford anyone as good as Sharp

again because of wages

SO'D could only work with the budget he could use

[YellowHippo]

Great to see an objective and rationally written thread.

With this in mind does anyone know if the new forum design will feature a thumb up/down feature like YouTube (or similar rating methods)?

As has been mention on many occasions, if it is true that JR and other DRFC members/players read the forum this could be used to show whether the majority of other forum members agree/disagree on the topics raised in the threads.

Thoughts?

[Goldthorpe Rover]

Some fantastic posts on this thread. Said far better than I could have ever hoped.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Lots of sense, some I disagree with, some I don't.

I think for me looking back this season there's been some things that have done well, some that have been really badly.  But the thing that sticks out most in this thread is tghat a lot of the things that have happened aren't that important any more.  The O'Driscoll era is now over, indeed the Championship era may well be over and in some respects both of those may be good and bad things.

But the key thing is to plan going forward.  I heard Saunders talking of this last week when stating he had a plan of where to go upon relegation and that gave some comfort.  Many disagree on whether Saunders himself is the right man, I'm prepared to give him time but can see the points on both sides and agree with points on both sides.  But what we need as fans is the club to do what they did 5 years ago.  Get the fans together in a room and state exactly what the objectives and strategy for the next few years are, both on and off the pitch.  I believe that a complete overhaul and with some changes for the better on and off the pitch the club can yield a huge positive from relegation as many other clubs have.  It's vital that the club discuss just what the plan will be going forward and it's also vital to make the fans a big part of this.  It's not only the football, it's the matchday experience, that's become just a stale as the on pitch activities and that's a big factor really.

For me the Championship was good for a bit but also damaged us a hell of a lot.  Instead of being forward thinking in growing crowds, having big supporter input etc we became all about funding players wages.  Of course that's important, but the club functions much better with the input of the fans and that has been forgotten a little of late.

I think the coming years are a big challenge and opportunity to rebuild the club completely into what it should be.  Some of the footballing ideas of Saunders I like eg the youth set up improvements and the development squad, these have been missed.  Getting the youngsters of Doncaster involved should also be something important.  Lots of opportunity to take forward I think and I really hope the club will sort of step back to where we were and get the fans onboard again.

[jucyberry]

Cussie, that is the best thread I have read in quite a while, It's not about looking back with regret, its about looking forward to the next chapter..The best generals know there is a time to fall back and regroup.. This is perhaps that time..

[DonnyNoel]

I agree with a lot of what you have put there BYFP. We're in strange circumstances indeed, its not often that you feel you can't judge a manager properly after 30 or so games in charge but thats how I feel with Deano who has had some very Jeckyll and Hyde performances, results and interviews in his time here.

As I've said on another thread, sadly looking back at things SOD let things get too stale and his faith and loyalty in some players, however admirable, played a huge part in our downturn IMO. We can debate why some players are still here (budget etc) but the bottom line is the same, some players need to be moved on for footballing reasons and thats when we can fully judge DS.

On the re-energised club point I feel thats as important off the pitch as it is on it. Its been a strange couple of years and there are very few positives to be drawn off the pitch. Even signing the best player in the Championship has done nothing to swell the gates (I daresay there was more buzz around Andy Watson!) so its vital that we stabilise the recent decline and give fans a reason to get back involved with the club so if we do come back we are in a position to grow and not just enjoy the ride.

[idler]

It'a a nice change to have a thread where people can argue a point
without resorting to name calling,threatening or spitting the dummy
out. Long may it continue.

[PDS]

idler = co(k.

Sorry, couldn't resist. No, really. Sorry.

Don't post often, but for once agree, it's a pleasure to read well constructed meaningful posts. It's so sad to see the decline of the club in this way. From a structured and measured progression up the leagues without putting sustainability at risk to the all eggs in one basket approach offered by Saunders and mackay has come as a bit of a shock. I worry about the difference of a dignified slide back down the league(s) under SOD vs Saunders capitulation chasing the undoubtedly talented mercenaries.

What does the future hold? League 1 almost for certain (but hope springs eternal). But i'm also fearful of what we'll be left with at that level. Are we a Sheff u or a Scunthorpe?

[RobTheRover]

Great to see an objective and rationally written thread.

With this in mind does anyone know if the new forum design will feature a thumb up/down feature like YouTube (or similar rating methods)?

There are one or two new features on the new site, but we are hoping to replicate this site (barring the downtime) as closely as possible at launch, and start to dripfeed the new stuff through over the following weeks.  I dont think you will be too disappointed....  ;-)

[PDX_Rover]

Interesting and troubling times... it could have been so different, particularly off the field, if Dave Morris had been show the door 5 years ago. That's been done to death so I'm not going to day more on that point.

Regarding the current plight... Obviously the results under SO'D since the last win last season were crap... Blame injuries.. no plan B... bad luck.. whatever...  I was sad to see SO'D go but then I've been sad to see other managers go... Bremner, Penney, Joe Kinnear (Ok not, Joe Kinnear...)...  Having said that, SO'D worked wonders on a shoestring and I can't help thinking that we'd be no worse off if he'd stayed.  Certainly, if we did go down under SO'D, at least we'd be prepared for life in L1 IMO.

Now we have a great deal of uncertainty.  There's no doubt we have some talent in the squad, but it's glaringly obvious even from 5000+ miles away that something is majorly wrong within the club.

Starting at the top... I feel very sorry for John Ryan right now. He was 'convinced' to sack SO'D and bring in Saunder and the McKay plan, and then the two guys who convinced him have the nerve to leave and pull the rug completely from under JR.  That is shitty behaviour, frankly. I was willing to give this a go, but I only a downwards trajectory from here.  I hope we do beat the drop.  I really do. But if we don't, what then?

If we have a clear out, do we then have a team of loanees or players who are out of contract?  How will that work?  How can you build solidarity and team spirit?  There's nothing in the kitty so how do we assemble a team??

It's not good.

[RobTheRover]

it could have been so different, particularly off the field, if Dave Morris had been show the door 5 years ago.

If I had a LIKE button, I'd press it round about....... now.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I looked at how teams attendances in the championship over the first three seasons compared to their promotion season from league one, and taking into consideration performances, ours held the increase more that all others apart from Colchester and Barnsley. Its not as bad as a post above assumed (okay, that was referring to ST sales, but attendances are more the real deal IMO)

promoted_to_level_2_club_attendance_stats.xls