Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: wilts rover on February 26, 2020, 06:52:47 pm
-
What they said during the referendum campaign:
Farm subsidies will be protected once we leave the EU - and after we take back control we can even increase them
https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1232679362912247811
What they say today:
Farm subsidies to be cut by 25% next year
https://twitter.com/FarmersWeekly/status/1232279578292387841
-
I like that old Vote Leave leaflet in the first link Wilts. "If we vote to Remain, we will be tied into the EU's nightmare bureaucracy forever. And...err...continue to get huge subsidies."
Owen Paterson on that leaflet by the way. The man who insisted in 2016 that we'd be insane to leave the Single Market.
01:25 here.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dvhb-DLqelN8&ved=2ahUKEwjq0fKE9e_nAhVTVBUIHcqyDu8QtwIwAXoECAYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3d24esdAx0b4LTVicmwz2E
I assume he's now been sectioned.
-
the only thing he got right was it' (the vote) would be the biggest thing since the reformation, I thought it was Capability Brown at first.
-
I was also going to point out that the leaflets also say that after we leave the EU we will have more money for flood defences to protect farmland
Whilst the Environment Minister said today that farmers are just going to have to put up with more frequent flooding of their land but the government will 'consider' reimbursing them for this.
But I thought that would be highlighting a bit too much hypocrisy as people knew what they voting for despite them now being told something completely different by the same people. Oh well.
https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/uk-news/2020/02/26/farmers-could-be-paid-for-natural-flood-solutions-to-cut-risk-to-communities/
-
watercress and wasabi should be the go from here on.
-
It's just hit me!
We can't possibly get a trade agreement in place with the EU before the end of the year. So we're faced with the disaster of crashing out with No Deal.
No Govt wants that. But this Govt doesn't want to back down either.
Unless....
Unless it has an excuse. Like global economic turmoil, caused by a virus perhaps?
There's my prediction. We postpone the end of the transition period sometime in the middle of this year because of "uncertainties in the global economy due to the Corvid-19 pandemic". And that's followed up by a tirade of abuse from the Mail and Express, saying dirty f**king Italians deliberately went sneezing over everybody to block the Will of The People.
-
Let’s see if Johnson and the polecat are serious or whether his 2min attention span creates a big yawn. 2oobn is not over two decades they have lost the same amount in much less time :)
‘’Go big' to tackle regional inequalities, report urges
The government must "think big" and spend more if it is serious about levelling up the UK's regions, an independent inquiry has said.
An extra £200bn of regional funds should be channelled to disadvantaged parts of the country over the next two decades, the UK2070 Commission said.
The report concludes policies need to cover longer timescales and feature stronger pan-regional collaboration.
It said regional inequalities have "blighted" Britain’’
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51650577
-
Government Statement today.
"However if it is not possible to negotiate a satisfactory outcome, then the trading relationship with the EU will rest on the 2019 Withdrawal Agreement and will look similar to Australia's."
Similar to Australia's arrangement with the EU. Let me interpret. That means "No arrangement with the EU. And we do about 800% more trade with the EU than Australia does. Oh aye, and Australia is currently negotiating a free trade deal with the EU and we would have walked away from such a deal in this scenario. What we SHOUKD have said, was that our arrangement with the EU will be identical to that of Bhutan or Kyrgyzstan. Except that their future well being isn't based on trade with the EU and ours is. But we think you are too thick to get any of this. We despise you but we do need to bullshit you into supporting us, so we'll say we're aiming for an Australia Deal. Idiots."
-
Trade talks, a prediction: (courtesy of @RussInCheshire)
UK - We don't like our deal
EU - Why not?
UK - We only get 95% of what we want
EU - It only gives us 95% too
UK - We want a new deal that gives us 100% of what we want
EU - But that means we only get 90% of what we want
UK - Yes, but we don't care. We hate you.
EU - Bit rude
UK - We elected people to go to your meetings specifically to say we hate you
EU - We noticed
UK - So we want a new deal, and we want the deal in 11 months or we cancel our existing deal
EU - Wait.. what?
UK - We've put it into law: you give us 100% of what we want in 11 months, or we walk away with 0% of what we want
EU - Erm... suits us!
UK - Wait, what?
EU - Perfect, do it. Walk away
UK - No, hold on, wait: you have to negotiate, so Boris can win
EU - Why? Right now you have 95% of perfect and we have 95% of perfect. If we negotiate, you get 100% and we get 90%.
UK - That's right
EU - But if we don't negotiate, we still have 95%... and you have 0%
UK - But... no, you're not meant to say that
EU - And if we don't have a deal, we don't have to put up with you sending people to our meetings to say you hate us
UK - The Daily Mail made us do it and then ran away!
EU - So we'll just sit it out for 11 months
UK - Fine, we'll go and make a great deal with the US
US - Yo suckers
UK - Could we have a trade deal please, sir?
US - Sure thing. We want 100% of everything, plus 51% controlling share in the NHS, and you get, let's see... 60% of what you have now
UK - Not good enough
US - Bye
UK - What?
US - Bye. Talks are over. Bye
UK - But we haven't got a deal!
US - We are 26% of world trade, making deals with EU (20%) and China (17%). We don't need your 1.8%.
UK - But we really need a deal, the EU outsmarted us
US - We know. Some of us can read. Not Trump, obviously, but the rest of us. Try India
UK - Hi India, remember us?
India - Oh f**k, these guys again
UK - We want a trade deal
India - And we want to vastly increase the number of Indians who can live in the UK
UK - We can't do that. Turns out we're, like, properly racist
India - That is brand new information!!
UK - So can we have a deal?
India - Sure. Join the queue
UK - Who's in the queue?
India - USA, China, Brazil, EU, Korea, Canada, Australia... basically everybody. We're kind of a big deal now.
UK - So you'll be ready to negotiate in, what: 11 months?
India - ha ha ha ha ha
UK - What did we say?
India - 11 months? Try 11 years. This shit takes ages, bro
UK - But we had a timetable of 11 months with the EU
India - And how did that work out?
UK - erm...
India - Try China
UK - Can we please have a trade deal?
China - Sorry, who are you?
UK - We're Great Britain
China - Great, you say?
UK - Well... once
China - And what do you want?
UK - A trade deal worthy of our status
China - You've got one
UK - No we haven't
China - Yes you have. With the EU. You don't need to renegotiate your trade deals: you need to reassess your status. Cos you're not a mighty nation, you're a small, wet, heavily indebted island on the edge of a globally important trading bloc... which you left, you goons
UK - So, what do you suggest?
China - You already know
...
EU - Hello again. Here to rejoin?
UK - Yes, on the same terms as before.
EU - Oh, I don't think so. Say goodbye to your rebate, hello to the Euro, and bonjour to the Schengen area. You are so dumb.
UK - We hate you!
-
:):):)
Sadly, the Mail and its like will never accept the last bit...
BobG
-
Trade talks, a prediction: (courtesy of @RussInCheshire)
UK - We don't like our deal
EU - Why not?
UK - We only get 95% of what we want
EU - It only gives us 95% too
UK - We want a new deal that gives us 100% of what we want
EU - But that means we only get 90% of what we want
UK - Yes, but we don't care. We hate you.
EU - Bit rude
UK - We elected people to go to your meetings specifically to say we hate you
EU - We noticed
UK - So we want a new deal, and we want the deal in 11 months or we cancel our existing deal
EU - Wait.. what?
UK - We've put it into law: you give us 100% of what we want in 11 months, or we walk away with 0% of what we want
EU - Erm... suits us!
UK - Wait, what?
EU - Perfect, do it. Walk away
UK - No, hold on, wait: you have to negotiate, so Boris can win
EU - Why? Right now you have 95% of perfect and we have 95% of perfect. If we negotiate, you get 100% and we get 90%.
UK - That's right
EU - But if we don't negotiate, we still have 95%... and you have 0%
UK - But... no, you're not meant to say that
EU - And if we don't have a deal, we don't have to put up with you sending people to our meetings to say you hate us
UK - The Daily Mail made us do it and then ran away!
EU - So we'll just sit it out for 11 months
UK - Fine, we'll go and make a great deal with the US
US - Yo suckers
UK - Could we have a trade deal please, sir?
US - Sure thing. We want 100% of everything, plus 51% controlling share in the NHS, and you get, let's see... 60% of what you have now
UK - Not good enough
US - Bye
UK - What?
US - Bye. Talks are over. Bye
UK - But we haven't got a deal!
US - We are 26% of world trade, making deals with EU (20%) and China (17%). We don't need your 1.8%.
UK - But we really need a deal, the EU outsmarted us
US - We know. Some of us can read. Not Trump, obviously, but the rest of us. Try India
UK - Hi India, remember us?
India - Oh f**k, these guys again
UK - We want a trade deal
India - And we want to vastly increase the number of Indians who can live in the UK
UK - We can't do that. Turns out we're, like, properly racist
India - That is brand new information!!
UK - So can we have a deal?
India - Sure. Join the queue
UK - Who's in the queue?
India - USA, China, Brazil, EU, Korea, Canada, Australia... basically everybody. We're kind of a big deal now.
UK - So you'll be ready to negotiate in, what: 11 months?
India - ha ha ha ha ha
UK - What did we say?
India - 11 months? Try 11 years. This shit takes ages, bro
UK - But we had a timetable of 11 months with the EU
India - And how did that work out?
UK - erm...
India - Try China
UK - Can we please have a trade deal?
China - Sorry, who are you?
UK - We're Great Britain
China - Great, you say?
UK - Well... once
China - And what do you want?
UK - A trade deal worthy of our status
China - You've got one
UK - No we haven't
China - Yes you have. With the EU. You don't need to renegotiate your trade deals: you need to reassess your status. Cos you're not a mighty nation, you're a small, wet, heavily indebted island on the edge of a globally important trading bloc... which you left, you goons
UK - So, what do you suggest?
China - You already know
...
EU - Hello again. Here to rejoin?
UK - Yes, on the same terms as before.
EU - Oh, I don't think so. Say goodbye to your rebate, hello to the Euro, and bonjour to the Schengen area. You are so dumb.
UK - We hate you!
Very good. Just slightly disappointed that you missed the section around the EU requiring the UK to follow EU state aid rules? We must maintain a level playing field and all that...except for Germany and Belgium of course who were granted 5 times more concessions to grant state aid than the UK in 2019. But that’s ok. I guess I must be racist to dare to question the EU?
-
Given the Tory loathing of the concept of state aid, perhaps Germany and Belgium made five times more applications to grant state aid.
-
Pies.
I'm buggered if I'm going to wade through all the data but a quick skim of this document suggests you're bang on the money.
https://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/index.cfm?fuseaction=dsp_sa_by_date
Cases of state aid by EU member countries in the past 3 months.
UK - 2
Belgium - 6
Germany - 43.
Herbert's absolutely convinced that our path to socialist utopia is being deliberately blocked by these bas**rds in Brussels. So he's empowered Boris Johnson.
The Road to Hell eh? Paved with misunderstandings.
-
You’re both missing the point.
Firstly, I raised it to add a bit of equilibrium to a one sided thread
Secondly, as a little dig back at the ‘racist’ insinuation in the post by NNK. That claim is now almost as boring as it is offensive
Thirdly, to highlight the hypocrisy within the EU and their insistence that we adhere to their regulations after we leave.
Oh, and Billy, you’re way off the mark again. The Great British public in their wisdom put paid to my desire for a ‘socialist utopia’ not the EU. Hopefully that’s one of the misunderstandings on the road to hell thats cleared up for you.
-
HA.
1) Of COURSE the EU is going to require us to play by their rules. If we want a deal from them. That's blindingly obvious and always was.
If we don't want a deal with them,we are free to do just whatever we want.
Explain to me where the hypocrisy is in that.
Secondly. My point was that by enabling Brexit, you are responsible for elevating Johnson to No10. That's all it was ever about. You just helped pave the way for him.
Thirdly. You might want to consider your earlier post in the light of those numbers of cases I posted. And then question whether your criticism of the EU's dealing with state aid cases is justified.
-
HA.
1) Of COURSE the EU is going to require us to play by their rules. If we want a deal from them. That's blindingly obvious and always was.
If we don't want a deal with them,we are free to do just whatever we want.
Explain to me where the hypocrisy is in that.
Secondly. My point was that by enabling Brexit, you are responsible for elevating Johnson to No10. That's all it was ever about. You just helped pave the way for him.
Thirdly. You might want to consider your earlier post in the light of those numbers of cases I posted. And then question whether your criticism of the EU's dealing with state aid cases is justified.
Billy
Blindingly obvious? Since when? Because as far as I’m aware, the EU didn’t make any serious claims that the UK would be expected to adhere to such a large number of the regulations until very recently? They haven’t insisted on the same thing with their deals with Japan, Korea or Canada (which was the EU preferred deal in 2017) so why insist on something different for the UK?
Could you imagine if the UK said to the EU “We will have a trade deal with you on the basis that we can set YOUR environment and social standards...” You’d go berserk at the perceived arrogance of the UK.
If we don’t get a deal with the EU, then of course we are free to do what we want...and that clearly worries the EU.
As for shoe horning BJ into No’10...well as a leave voter I’ve been on the receiving end of some abuse over the years...a racist...a moron...a knuckle dragger...brainless...a fascist...etc, but being the man who put BJ into power is a new one that I can add to the list.
And no, I don’t need to reconsider my post on the EU policy on state aid.
-
HA.
Let's get this right. You think the EU should say: You want a preferential trade deal? No problem! And you also want to have the right to reduce workers' conditions, environmental standards and to subsidise your companies to allow them to undercut us? Yeah! Of course!"
Apply your brain. It's bleeding obvious and it also was that a trade deal would never be on offer without us agreeing to a common set of standards.
If you don't like those standards then fine. Walk away. And take the massive loss of economic activity that comes with it.
But wait a minute. YOU voted for this. Don't you think it was your responsibility to have thought about this potential outcome before you out your X down?
-
Sorry Herbert you are incorrect.
In the Political Declaration accompanying the Withdrawal Agreement, Johnson signed up to have a 'level playing field' on agriculture, food and environmental standards, workers rights and state aid.
He (and David Frost our negotiator) have since made it pefectly clear that he has no intention of honouring that pledge and the UK will follow whatever standards they decide they want to have now we have left.
Thus the EU now don't trust Johnson. He says one thing - and does another.
https://www.ft.com/content/89f784dc-595f-11ea-abe5-8e03987b7b20
-
Are they not cuts to people that were getting a certain percentage not everyone?
-
You’re both missing the point.
Firstly, I raised it to add a bit of equilibrium to a one sided thread
Secondly, as a little dig back at the ‘racist’ insinuation in the post by NNK. That claim is now almost as boring as it is offensive
Thirdly, to highlight the hypocrisy within the EU and their insistence that we adhere to their regulations after we leave.
Oh, and Billy, you’re way off the mark again. The Great British public in their wisdom put paid to my desire for a ‘socialist utopia’ not the EU. Hopefully that’s one of the misunderstandings on the road to hell thats cleared up for you.
What on earth is even remotely 'racist' in what I posted HA? You're clearly seeing things that aren't there!
But much of the 'leave campaign' was openly racist - I don't remember you being critical about that though!
As a reminder to those who voted leave on that basis, let me give you Schrödinger's Immigrant....
Schrödinger's Immigrant. The one who is both stealing your job and claiming benefits for not having a job. All at the same time.
It's people voting on that basis you should be really worried about.
-
You’re both missing the point.
Firstly, I raised it to add a bit of equilibrium to a one sided thread
Secondly, as a little dig back at the ‘racist’ insinuation in the post by NNK. That claim is now almost as boring as it is offensive
Thirdly, to highlight the hypocrisy within the EU and their insistence that we adhere to their regulations after we leave.
Oh, and Billy, you’re way off the mark again. The Great British public in their wisdom put paid to my desire for a ‘socialist utopia’ not the EU. Hopefully that’s one of the misunderstandings on the road to hell thats cleared up for you.
What on earth is even remotely 'racist' in what I posted HA? You're clearly seeing things that aren't there!
But much of the 'leave campaign' was openly racist - I don't remember you being critical about that though!
As a reminder to those who voted leave on that basis, let me give you Schrödinger's Immigrant....
Schrödinger's Immigrant. The one who is both stealing your job and claiming benefits for not having a job. All at the same time.
It's people voting on that basis you should be really worried about.
NNK
Quote from your post:
UK - We want a trade deal
India - And we want to vastly increase the number of Indians who can live in the UK
UK - We can't do that. Turns out we're, like, properly racist
India - That is brand new information!!
Does this mean the UK is racist? Leaver voters are racist? Our Government is racist? Or none of the above?
I didn’t realise that I needed to be critical of the ‘racist leave campaign’. I hoped, and assumed, you’d take it as read that I didn’t agree with any of that nonsense. Being a leave voter, having the racist card thrown at you does come with the territory unfortunately. However, just for you NNK, here goes:
“As a former member of both the anti nazi league and Rock against racism, and as someone who has attended many anti racism demo’s in the past, including counter demo’s against the NF, I wholeheartedly oppose and disagree with any racist views, thoughts, actions and opinions, both inside and outside of the Brexit ‘debate’.
Ok?
-
HA.
I for one do not for a moment think you are racist.
What I DO think is that those on the Left who voted for Brexit were naive at the very best. I think you have unquestionably, if accidentally enabled and empowered racists. And I find that frustrating, because it was entirely predictable and predicted.
-
You’re both missing the point.
Firstly, I raised it to add a bit of equilibrium to a one sided thread
Secondly, as a little dig back at the ‘racist’ insinuation in the post by NNK. That claim is now almost as boring as it is offensive
Thirdly, to highlight the hypocrisy within the EU and their insistence that we adhere to their regulations after we leave.
Oh, and Billy, you’re way off the mark again. The Great British public in their wisdom put paid to my desire for a ‘socialist utopia’ not the EU. Hopefully that’s one of the misunderstandings on the road to hell thats cleared up for you.
What on earth is even remotely 'racist' in what I posted HA? You're clearly seeing things that aren't there!
But much of the 'leave campaign' was openly racist - I don't remember you being critical about that though!
As a reminder to those who voted leave on that basis, let me give you Schrödinger's Immigrant....
Schrödinger's Immigrant. The one who is both stealing your job and claiming benefits for not having a job. All at the same time.
It's people voting on that basis you should be really worried about.
NNK
Quote from your post:
UK - We want a trade deal
India - And we want to vastly increase the number of Indians who can live in the UK
UK - We can't do that. Turns out we're, like, properly racist
India - That is brand new information!!
Does this mean the UK is racist? Leaver voters are racist? Our Government is racist? Or none of the above?
I didn’t realise that I needed to be critical of the ‘racist leave campaign’. I hoped, and assumed, you’d take it as read that I didn’t agree with any of that nonsense. Being a leave voter, having the racist card thrown at you does come with the territory unfortunately. However, just for you NNK, here goes:
“As a former member of both the anti nazi league and Rock against racism, and as someone who has attended many anti racism demo’s in the past, including counter demo’s against the NF, I wholeheartedly oppose and disagree with any racist views, thoughts, actions and opinions, both inside and outside of the Brexit ‘debate’.
Ok?
We already know that many leave voters made their decision based on the racist propaganda of the leave campaigns - that's a given. I personally know an awful lot of people who voted that way for that reason, heck I know one guy who won't watch BBC Breakfast TV if Naga Munchetti is on "because she's black"!
It's also clear that a number of members of our government is openly racist - again, you just have to look at the comments of people like Johnson when he talks about 'letterbox people', 'flag-waving piccaninnies', people with 'watermelon smiles', 'hook nosed Arabs' and mocking the Chinese in a Spectator article ‘Prease, sir,’ said the BA girl. ‘Prease come with me. I have found a better seat for you in row 52.’
So yes, I believe a large number of people in this country are indeed racist to some degree and that degree varies from person to person.
I take on board your previous stance on Nazism, the NF and Anti Racism and your current stance on racism, and from that I hope that you can now see that there is nothing in my earlier posting that is even remotely racist, merely a suggestion that many people in the UK are; and that that should be a worry for us all.
-
I really admire the solidarity and commitment most posting on here have to free movement and the European dream of one state, so much so I was wondering if any of you have considered having a couple of months off and showing real commitment and travelling to northern Italy and helping out with the situation there.
-
I really admire the solidarity and commitment most posting on here have to free movement and the European dream of one state, so much so I was wondering if any of you have considered having a couple of months off and showing real commitment and travelling to northern Italy and helping out with the situation there.
Selby, I don't think that this post does you any favours and will not appeal to many supporters of either side.
Just my opinion of course.
-
I really admire the solidarity and commitment most posting on here have to free movement and the European dream of one state, so much so I was wondering if any of you have considered having a couple of months off and showing real commitment and travelling to northern Italy and helping out with the situation there.
Selby, I have benefited from the facility of free movement to work in the EU. Sadly, that, and the ability to choose to be educated in an EU country has now been denied to my Grandchildren. Do you think that is a good thing for them and their futures?
Your Italy comment is beneath contempt. But then, you did vote leave didn't you!
-
HA.
I for one do not for a moment think you are racist.
What I DO think is that those on the Left who voted for Brexit were naive at the very best. I think you have unquestionably, if accidentally enabled and empowered racists. And I find that frustrating, because it was entirely predictable and predicted.
Billy
I agree that some racists have latched on to Brexit. However, that doesn’t meant that I shouldn’t commit to my democratic right to voting for the UK to leave the EU. Racists are more empowered by the result of the last election than by Brexit. If Labour had won the last election then we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation.,
-
You’re both missing the point.
Firstly, I raised it to add a bit of equilibrium to a one sided thread
Secondly, as a little dig back at the ‘racist’ insinuation in the post by NNK. That claim is now almost as boring as it is offensive
Thirdly, to highlight the hypocrisy within the EU and their insistence that we adhere to their regulations after we leave.
Oh, and Billy, you’re way off the mark again. The Great British public in their wisdom put paid to my desire for a ‘socialist utopia’ not the EU. Hopefully that’s one of the misunderstandings on the road to hell thats cleared up for you.
What on earth is even remotely 'racist' in what I posted HA? You're clearly seeing things that aren't there!
But much of the 'leave campaign' was openly racist - I don't remember you being critical about that though!
As a reminder to those who voted leave on that basis, let me give you Schrödinger's Immigrant....
Schrödinger's Immigrant. The one who is both stealing your job and claiming benefits for not having a job. All at the same time.
It's people voting on that basis you should be really worried about.
NNK
Quote from your post:
UK - We want a trade deal
India - And we want to vastly increase the number of Indians who can live in the UK
UK - We can't do that. Turns out we're, like, properly racist
India - That is brand new information!!
Does this mean the UK is racist? Leaver voters are racist? Our Government is racist? Or none of the above?
I didn’t realise that I needed to be critical of the ‘racist leave campaign’. I hoped, and assumed, you’d take it as read that I didn’t agree with any of that nonsense. Being a leave voter, having the racist card thrown at you does come with the territory unfortunately. However, just for you NNK, here goes:
“As a former member of both the anti nazi league and Rock against racism, and as someone who has attended many anti racism demo’s in the past, including counter demo’s against the NF, I wholeheartedly oppose and disagree with any racist views, thoughts, actions and opinions, both inside and outside of the Brexit ‘debate’.
Ok?
We already know that many leave voters made their decision based on the racist propaganda of the leave campaigns - that's a given. I personally know an awful lot of people who voted that way for that reason, heck I know one guy who won't watch BBC Breakfast TV if Naga Munchetti is on "because she's black"!
It's also clear that a number of members of our government is openly racist - again, you just have to look at the comments of people like Johnson when he talks about 'letterbox people', 'flag-waving piccaninnies', people with 'watermelon smiles', 'hook nosed Arabs' and mocking the Chinese in a Spectator article ‘Prease, sir,’ said the BA girl. ‘Prease come with me. I have found a better seat for you in row 52.’
So yes, I believe a large number of people in this country are indeed racist to some degree and that degree varies from person to person.
I take on board your previous stance on Nazism, the NF and Anti Racism and your current stance on racism, and from that I hope that you can now see that there is nothing in my earlier posting that is even remotely racist, merely a suggestion that many people in the UK are; and that that should be a worry for us all.
Fair enough NNK
Of course there’s a significant number of racists in the UK and I’ve been fighting against that for most of my life. Has the UK become more racist since Brexit? I’m not sure, but what it has done has given these people a platform to spout their nonsense from and even more so with the Tory government that we have now.
I don’t feel that there’s necessarily more racists now. I’m old enough to remember the massive NF rallies in the 80’s in London. Passers by would cheer them on whilst attacking us in the much smaller counter demo. But I do agree that it has made some racists feel their views are legitimatised to a point.
-
I it goes along with people wishing older people to pass away posting on here Kato no doubt you will remember that buddy, somehow I didn't think anyone was that keen on holidays in the promised land now.
-
HA.
I for one do not for a moment think you are racist.
What I DO think is that those on the Left who voted for Brexit were naive at the very best. I think you have unquestionably, if accidentally enabled and empowered racists. And I find that frustrating, because it was entirely predictable and predicted.
Billy
I agree that some racists have latched on to Brexit. However, that doesn’t meant that I shouldn’t commit to my democratic right to voting for the UK to leave the EU. Racists are more empowered by the result of the last election than by Brexit. If Labour had won the last election then we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation.,
Did you see the figures on the increase in the number of race hate crimes after the 2016 vote? It was obvious to anyone who looked at it that that would be a consequence. And yes, you absolutely had the right to vote however you wanted. Just as I have the right to remind you of the consequences of voting with your heart, not your head.
-
I really admire the solidarity and commitment most posting on here have to free movement and the European dream of one state, so much so I was wondering if any of you have considered having a couple of months off and showing real commitment and travelling to northern Italy and helping out with the situation there.
Thanks for that advice Selby. I'll ask my wife for her opinion, given that she's going to Ferrara next month to look after her ill grandmother. Knowing her, I assume she'd have some interesting although not massively practical suggestions for what you could do to help.
-
You’re both missing the point.
Firstly, I raised it to add a bit of equilibrium to a one sided thread
Secondly, as a little dig back at the ‘racist’ insinuation in the post by NNK. That claim is now almost as boring as it is offensive
Thirdly, to highlight the hypocrisy within the EU and their insistence that we adhere to their regulations after we leave.
Oh, and Billy, you’re way off the mark again. The Great British public in their wisdom put paid to my desire for a ‘socialist utopia’ not the EU. Hopefully that’s one of the misunderstandings on the road to hell thats cleared up for you.
What on earth is even remotely 'racist' in what I posted HA? You're clearly seeing things that aren't there!
But much of the 'leave campaign' was openly racist - I don't remember you being critical about that though!
As a reminder to those who voted leave on that basis, let me give you Schrödinger's Immigrant....
Schrödinger's Immigrant. The one who is both stealing your job and claiming benefits for not having a job. All at the same time.
It's people voting on that basis you should be really worried about.
NNK
Quote from your post:
UK - We want a trade deal
India - And we want to vastly increase the number of Indians who can live in the UK
UK - We can't do that. Turns out we're, like, properly racist
India - That is brand new information!!
Does this mean the UK is racist? Leaver voters are racist? Our Government is racist? Or none of the above?
I didn’t realise that I needed to be critical of the ‘racist leave campaign’. I hoped, and assumed, you’d take it as read that I didn’t agree with any of that nonsense. Being a leave voter, having the racist card thrown at you does come with the territory unfortunately. However, just for you NNK, here goes:
“As a former member of both the anti nazi league and Rock against racism, and as someone who has attended many anti racism demo’s in the past, including counter demo’s against the NF, I wholeheartedly oppose and disagree with any racist views, thoughts, actions and opinions, both inside and outside of the Brexit ‘debate’.
Ok?
We already know that many leave voters made their decision based on the racist propaganda of the leave campaigns - that's a given. I personally know an awful lot of people who voted that way for that reason, heck I know one guy who won't watch BBC Breakfast TV if Naga Munchetti is on "because she's black"!
It's also clear that a number of members of our government is openly racist - again, you just have to look at the comments of people like Johnson when he talks about 'letterbox people', 'flag-waving piccaninnies', people with 'watermelon smiles', 'hook nosed Arabs' and mocking the Chinese in a Spectator article ‘Prease, sir,’ said the BA girl. ‘Prease come with me. I have found a better seat for you in row 52.’
So yes, I believe a large number of people in this country are indeed racist to some degree and that degree varies from person to person.
I take on board your previous stance on Nazism, the NF and Anti Racism and your current stance on racism, and from that I hope that you can now see that there is nothing in my earlier posting that is even remotely racist, merely a suggestion that many people in the UK are; and that that should be a worry for us all.
Fair enough NNK
Of course there’s a significant number of racists in the UK and I’ve been fighting against that for most of my life. Has the UK become more racist since Brexit? I’m not sure, but what it has done has given these people a platform to spout their nonsense from and even more so with the Tory government that we have now.
I don’t feel that there’s necessarily more racists now. I’m old enough to remember the massive NF rallies in the 80’s in London. Passers by would cheer them on whilst attacking us in the much smaller counter demo. But I do agree that it has made some racists feel their views are legitimatised to a point.
Agreed HA, people now seem to be more 'open', (if that's the right word), about their views on foreigners. It certainly has become more prevalent since the results of the referendum and I can honestly see it getting worse, not better when people who thought voting leave would rid us of these foreigners realise that most of those who are already here will still be here when the milk, honey and unicorns promised by the leave campaigners fail to arrive. These same people will need to have someone to blame, and guess who it's likely to be!
-
I really admire the solidarity and commitment most posting on here have to free movement and the European dream of one state, so much so I was wondering if any of you have considered having a couple of months off and showing real commitment and travelling to northern Italy and helping out with the situation there.
About as likely as you coming out of retirement to pick cabbages in Lincolnshire next season and pop down to Snaith to help with their clean up operations as you have now 'taken back control' I should think.
-
Talking of cabbages Wilts you have reminded me our lass asked me to pick one up from the shop on the way home.
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
-
Tyke.
1) The world will be a very different place by the time of the next election. We will then be dealing with the consequences of Brexit, not the expectation of it.
2) The electorate will be very different by the time of the next election. It is a fact that Brexit voters were predominantly older and Leave supporters predominantly younger. There will be far fewer of the older people who voted Leave around by 2024 and a lot more younger people. That's not a value judgement. It's just a demographic fact.
3) Put those two facts together and your argument that anyone who wants to point out the negative consequences of Brexit is bound to lose next time round is fatally flawed. There is a far bigger threat to Labour in being seen to not point out those negatives. That is the path to losing the younger vote, as Labour did so spectacularly in the first half of 2019. My take is that democracy doesn't end because a vote happens. You have to deal with the consequences. My take ever since 12 Dec 2019 has been to remind those who voted Leave and/or Tory that they now hold the responsibility for the consequences. The country is now on the path they wanted. They need to be grown up enough to embrace that, and not blame the other side.
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .
I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!
The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .
There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .
As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .
You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .
Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .
I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .
The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .
Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .
Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .
You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .
Thankfully we were given that opportunity .
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Railway re-nationalisation
The ability to stop paying UK child benefits to children living outside the UK
The freedom to set language rules for doctors from the EU
Our own rules on deporting EU criminals
Scrapping VAT on domestic energy
-
Tyke.
1) The world will be a very different place by the time of the next election. We will then be dealing with the consequences of Brexit, not the expectation of it.
2) The electorate will be very different by the time of the next election. It is a fact that Brexit voters were predominantly older and Leave supporters predominantly younger. There will be far fewer of the older people who voted Leave around by 2024 and a lot more younger people. That's not a value judgement. It's just a demographic fact.
3) Put those two facts together and your argument that anyone who wants to point out the negative consequences of Brexit is bound to lose next time round is fatally flawed. There is a far bigger threat to Labour in being seen to not point out those negatives. That is the path to losing the younger vote, as Labour did so spectacularly in the first half of 2019. My take is that democracy doesn't end because a vote happens. You have to deal with the consequences. My take ever since 12 Dec 2019 has been to remind those who voted Leave and/or Tory that they now hold the responsibility for the consequences. The country is now on the path they wanted. They need to be grown up enough to embrace that, and not blame the other side.
There's a lot of moving parts there Billy .
If's but's and maybe's , neither you or I know the political landscape in five years time and if you ask 10 economic so called experts for a forecast on anything you will receive 10 different answers .
Which isn't to say there won't be bumps in the road , of course there will be , inside the EU doesn't give you recession immunity either .
Any bumps will be a price worth paying for getting out of this club and getting a head start before the thing goes completely tyts up which in my opinion it will .
My grandkid will thank me when he comes of age of that I'm totally confident .
-
Tyke.
You often speak sense on here, but your comment about the economists is, frankly, ignorant nonsense. You're doing the Michael Gove thing - ignoring experts because they contradict what you want to be true. I'm talking about economists who were correct in advising Gordon Brown to keep us out of the Euro, correct about the response the the Global Financial Crash and correct about the catastrophic effects of Austerity. Career-long, demonstrable records of being correct. But you won't listen to them because they are telling you what you do not want to hear. That Brexit will make your grandkids and my grandkids a lot poorer than they should have been.
Like I say, you won. Now be man enough to shoulder the responsibility of what you have done.
-
Tyke.
You often speak sense on here, but your comment about the economists is, frankly, ignorant nonsense. You're doing the Michael Gove thing - ignoring experts because they contradict what you want to be true. I'm talking about economists who were correct in advising Gordon Brown to keep us out of the Euro, correct about the response the the Global Financial Crash and correct about the catastrophic effects of Austerity. Career-long, demonstrable records of being correct. But you won't listen to them because they are telling you what you do not want to hear. That Brexit will make your grandkids and my grandkids a lot poorer than they should have been.
Like I say, you won. Now be man enough to shoulder the responsibility of what you have done.
Hold on a minute I never said I wasn't listening I said nobody knows the political landscape in five years time and I acknowledged that there will be bumps in the road and probably a recession .
You make it sound like people who have voted leave have committed some kind of crime .
" Shoulder the responsibility of what you've done "
What kind of language is that because I see the EU differently to yourself ?
If you want my honest opinion it's that kind of language that's harmed the Labour Party massively especially in the heartlands .
" At least my voters aren't as thick as yours "
Emily Thornberry .
Is there some kind of superiority complex within the Labour Movement these days towards the old heartlands ?
I thought we might have moved on from Mandelson and his feck the heartlands they've no where else to go other than Labour anyway .
You may want to revisit that one Mandy .
The heartlands voted Leave in massively robust terms , the electorate are never wrong .
Yet the Labour Party does it's very best to not only not disrespect the result of a democratic referendum it also undermines it's core vote and politically takes the pyss out of them .
It's got more time for the migrants than it has for the rank and file who have supported the party for generations and are the salt of this country , many of whom have served in the military to boot .
At least that's how it comes across and your reply tonight just endorses that narrative .
It's a long way back for Labour because clearly they still don't get it .
-
Hang on.
You dismissed out of hand the predictions of economics experts with career-long records of making correct calls. THAT is what I mean about not listening. They've made clear, unambiguous predictions, with clear reasoning. You've chosen to dismiss them. So don't come the moral high ground on this one. If you simply ignore evidence that you don't like, you're not arguing like a grown up. You're just asserting.
-
Tyke.
You often speak sense on here, but your comment about the economists is, frankly, ignorant nonsense. You're doing the Michael Gove thing - ignoring experts because they contradict what you want to be true. I'm talking about economists who were correct in advising Gordon Brown to keep us out of the Euro, correct about the response the the Global Financial Crash and correct about the catastrophic effects of Austerity. Career-long, demonstrable records of being correct. But you won't listen to them because they are telling you what you do not want to hear. That Brexit will make your grandkids and my grandkids a lot poorer than they should have been.
Like I say, you won. Now be man enough to shoulder the responsibility of what you have done.
Hold on a minute I never said I wasn't listening I said nobody knows the political landscape in five years time and I acknowledged that there will be bumps in the road and probably a recession .
You make it sound like people who have voted leave have committed some kind of crime .
" Shoulder the responsibility of what you've done "
What kind of language is that because I see the EU differently to yourself ?
If you want my honest opinion it's that kind of language that's harmed the Labour Party massively especially in the heartlands .
" At least my voters aren't as thick as yours "
Emily Thornberry .
Is there some kind of superiority complex within the Labour Movement these days towards the old heartlands ?
I thought we might have moved on from Mandelson and his feck the heartlands they've no where else to go other than Labour anyway .
You may want to revisit that one Mandy .
The heartlands voted Leave in massively robust terms , the electorate are never wrong .
Yet the Labour Party does it's very best to not only not disrespect the result of a democratic referendum it also undermines it's core vote and politically takes the pyss out of them .
It's got more time for the migrants than it has for the rank and file who have supported the party for generations and are the salt of this country , many of whom have served in the military to boot .
At least that's how it comes across and your reply tonight just endorses that narrative .
It's a long way back for Labour because clearly they still don't get it .
You're wasting your time with them Tyke. They just don't get why Labour got slaughtered, and they'd been continuously warned on here that there'd be a day of reckoning for the betrayal on Brexit, and for the constant snipes, sneers, and insults, and yet they're still at it.
They couldn't see the amount of anger among Northern Leave voters, and they think that Keir Starmer is the man to reconcile them. Really?
-
Hang on.
You dismissed out of hand the predictions of economics experts with career-long records of making correct calls. THAT is what I mean about not listening. They've made clear, unambiguous predictions, with clear reasoning. You've chosen to dismiss them. So don't come the moral high ground on this one. If you simply ignore evidence that you don't like, you're not arguing like a grown up. You're just asserting.
Well for a start there's a trade deal to negotiate which clearly is in both sides interests to compromise on and achieve a win - win result .
I don't buy the chest thumping from either side pre trade deal talks so that's one aspect of these so called economic experts who seem to dismiss the result of a trade deal out of hand .
For all both you and I know a favourable deal could be struck .
The Germans and the French are already fighting like rats in a sack as to who is going to take up the slack minus our substantial financial contribution so it ain't the greatest idea in the world to knock us out of the trade game and the economic benefit to those two big hitters still left propping up the other 25 countries .
If I put my name or vote to something I go all the way Billy and I stand by my actions .
I did 12 months on strike in 84/85 with a 3 month old baby and a mortgage and didn't back away from what I believed in despite the desperation .
I walked away from thousands in redundancy because I wasn't getting talked down to by gaffers post strike because they knew we'd emptied our gun and I certainly wasn't working alongside scabs either who'd fecked us over , I left mining with nothing pal and I'd still go on strike today for 12 months if I believed in something like I did back then .
I had a vote in the referendum and I voted in what I personally believe to be right and no amount of bitter loser rhetoric will change me .
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .
I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!
The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .
There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .
As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .
You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .
Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .
I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .
The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .
Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .
Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .
You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .
Thankfully we were given that opportunity .
Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off! Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail. No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Railway re-nationalisation
The ability to stop paying UK child benefits to children livin6g outside the UK
The freedom to set language rules for doctors from the EU
Our own rules on deporting EU criminals
Scrapping VAT on domestic energy
But we didn't need to leave the EU to nationalise the railways. Set language rules for doctors? What? Where did that crap come from? We could always deport EU criminals - my eldest Son has been involved in this process, it already happens, it's something we already do. FFS, get your head out of the Daily Mail - you've been lied to, and you continue to believe the lies!
-
Tyke.
You often speak sense on here, but your comment about the economists is, frankly, ignorant nonsense. You're doing the Michael Gove thing - ignoring experts because they contradict what you want to be true. I'm talking about economists who were correct in advising Gordon Brown to keep us out of the Euro, correct about the response the the Global Financial Crash and correct about the catastrophic effects of Austerity. Career-long, demonstrable records of being correct. But you won't listen to them because they are telling you what you do not want to hear. That Brexit will make your grandkids and my grandkids a lot poorer than they should have been.
Like I say, you won. Now be man enough to shoulder the responsibility of what you have done.
Hold on a minute I never said I wasn't listening I said nobody knows the political landscape in five years time and I acknowledged that there will be bumps in the road and probably a recession .
You make it sound like people who have voted leave have committed some kind of crime .
" Shoulder the responsibility of what you've done "
What kind of language is that because I see the EU differently to yourself ?
If you want my honest opinion it's that kind of language that's harmed the Labour Party massively especially in the heartlands .
" At least my voters aren't as thick as yours "
Emily Thornberry .
Is there some kind of superiority complex within the Labour Movement these days towards the old heartlands ?
I thought we might have moved on from Mandelson and his feck the heartlands they've no where else to go other than Labour anyway .
You may want to revisit that one Mandy .
The heartlands voted Leave in massively robust terms , the electorate are never wrong .
Yet the Labour Party does it's very best to not only not disrespect the result of a democratic referendum it also undermines it's core vote and politically takes the pyss out of them .
It's got more time for the migrants than it has for the rank and file who have supported the party for generations and are the salt of this country , many of whom have served in the military to boot .
At least that's how it comes across and your reply tonight just endorses that narrative .
It's a long way back for Labour because clearly they still don't get it .
You're wasting your time with them Tyke. They just don't get why Labour got slaughtered, and they'd been continuously warned on here that there'd be a day of reckoning for the betrayal on Brexit, and for the constant snipes, sneers, and insults, and yet they're still at it.
They couldn't see the amount of anger among Northern Leave voters, and they think that Keir Starmer is the man to reconcile them. Really?
Then again when the Labour Party ends at Watford these days what can you expect Steve .
Little wonder London loves immigration and the heart and soul of the Labour Party , the immigrants live in poverty and do the shyte jobs whilst the white Brit pulls in over 100k a year and doesn't have to wait more than two minutes for a train anywhere he wants .
Meanwhile up here it's slightly different , something that seems to escape the party who is supposedly on our side .
Which isn't to say I'm a working class Tory because I'd die before voting for them and they are simply using their new found vote for their own means to an end .
Vastly becoming politically homeless and I'm a bloke who was arrested and fined a massive amount of money at the Poll Tax demo in London in 1990 and the working class cause .
I wonder why I even bothered with this set of shytehouses who supposedly have my interests at heart .
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .
I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!
The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .
There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .
As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .
You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .
Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .
I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .
The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .
Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .
Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .
You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .
Thankfully we were given that opportunity .
Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off! Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail. No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!
Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .
No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .
Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .
-
I think most do get it Steve, labour should have had a clear no-brexit message, I think that most are stunned that even though labour were out spent and undermined in the vote and election many opted for self destruction in an act of defiance. Most of what's wrong with the economy and the country is down to the last 10 years so what happens? another 5 years.
I respect that everyone has their own vote to do with as they wish, did you vote? but to keep voting for ones oppressor shows signs of Stockholm Syndrome.
That racism whipped up by farage and the yellow press has had a big hand in where the country is at present is a very low point, reading about it in sport, about the man that starved to death about windrush etc shows me the country (not everyone) has not moved on nor grown comfortable with changes in decades. Sad does not cover this and unfortunately it not just Britain, there it institutionalised racism towards Australia's own 'royal' family and almost every other country suffers it too.
Unfortunately for whatever reason, those that voted for brexit and and then against labour have voted for a continuation of a poorer country and not just in monetary terms and a grossly unfair country, this may just be a byproduct of their intentions but it cannot be ignored.
Taking back control is looking just the opposite from where I'm sitting and instead of reaping the rewards of a better distribution of spoils into the north gained via the EU and building strength to be able to change the EU from within you now have the richest trading bloc on your doorstep with no representation and no rights and are going to get charged a hefty admission fee per visit, either way.
-
Tyke.
No matter what trade deal we get with the EU, it will be worse for our economy that what we are leaving behind. If you don't agree with that, show me some evidence to back up your belief.
What you did or didn't do in the 1980s is admirable. But it doesn't change that fact that what you did in 2016 was to allow yourself to be used in a far-right coup. The Brexit vote was only ever about sorting out the civil war in the Tory party. Your vote helped the right wing to win it. You may well have had the very best of intentions, but that was the practical outcome.
Face up to that and maybe we will make some progress.
-
And Tyke.
This time last year, Labour had a clear and unambiguous policy to support Brexit. Go and look at what Corbyn was saying then. It's crystal clear. He'd had an interview in the Observer where he'd said that his policy was to push for an Election and to go into it supporting Brexit.
Do you recall what the consequence of that was?
In December 2018, Labour were pushing 40% in the polls. By June 2019, they hit 18%.
Go figure out why. And then stop and think why you're spending so much time fighting people on your general side.
-
And Tyke.
This time last year, Labour had a clear and unambiguous policy to support Brexit. Go and look at what Corbyn was saying then. It's crystal clear. He'd had an interview in the Observer where he'd said that his policy was to push for an Election and to go into it supporting Brexit.
Do you recall what the consequence of that was?
In December 2018, Labour were pushing 40% in the polls. By June 2019, they hit 18%.
Go figure out why. And then stop and think why you're spending so much time fighting people on your general side.
Billy whilst you support a neoliberal project and free movement of cheap Labour you ain't on my general side and you never will be .
We are where we are as a consequence as Labour men .
The election result is the adjudicator , the electorate are never wrong .
Polls from way back when aren't relevant and you are intelligent enough to surely realise that .
The left of the 70's and 80's were massively anti EU and with good reason , Tony Benn was nobody's fool .
The left of today well you tell me what they are ?
-
So let me get this right.
Polls from 7 mo this ago are worthless. But opinions from 50 years ago are sacrosanct?
You been on the pop Tyke?
-
So let me get this right.
Polls from 7 mo this ago are worthless. But opinions from 50 years ago are sacrosanct?
You been on the pop Tyke?
You are talking about opinion polls Billy and I'm talking about the left wing and fundamental principles .
The left and the trade union movement robustly opposed the EU .
And today .........
Sold out Billy , the London political bubble perhaps ?
Who knows .
Many blame Thatcherism for the loss of working class solidarity but take a good look at the left of today who've sleep walked in to the globalisation narrative .
Now you tell me who got done like a kipper as you like to point the finger at with leavers .
-
Ok Tyke. I see the fault line between us.
You are an idealist who wants the world to be as it should be.
I'm a pragmatist who wants to make the best of the world as it is.
You laud Benn. I despise him.
I don't despise him for what he wanted the world to be. I agreed with him in that
I despise him because in his obsession that he was right, he destroyed the Labour party as a credible electoral force. And in doing that, he let Thatcher off the leash.
Give me 1 Wilson who held the Labour party together and was hated by the Left, over 100 of Benn, who was all principle and no f**king practicality.
It's the same with the EU.
You see it as an enemy because it's not avowedly socialist.
I see it as a friend because it blunts the worst excesses of unfettered Capitalism.
Like I say, I'm a pragmatist. I want more people to have better lives. Your vote in 2016, made with the best of intentions, is going to lead to a lot more people having a lot worse lives.
-
By the way Tyke. That Globalisation that you keep on decrying. It's led the thick end of 2 billion people out of abject poverty and into reasonable living standards over this past 30 years.
The EU has massively lifted the living standards from Estonia to Portugal.
If you were truly socialist, you'd embrace that. Instead of coming out with the childish "neoliberal" insult.
-
There is something that keeps sticking its head up in this debate from time to time from various quarters that I can't get my head around (not unusual) which is ''wot the labour party did to me'' 5-10-15-20-25-30-40-50 or more years ago which appears to translate to ''I can never forgive them because ....... and I now vote x-y-z or not at all''
I can see how a short term ''I'll pay the f**kers back for this'' can be good for retribution, self respect even or wotever but long term? really? you'd rather enable those that don't give a shit whether you live or die?
To put it in 'Rovers' terms no matter whats gone on in the past and as fans of this club we've had just about everything thrown at us over the decades here we all are supporting the club and yet the only thing that is the same or similar now as a hundred years ago is that the team plays in Doncaster. Very few have said f**k it I'm off to support R*therham or Sh*ffield :)
Added:
I will temper my comment a little following a re-read to say that yes you may have a good local member of the party that looks after your needs and works hard for the community but look at the top end of all the parties and think who you would want in your corner when you need genuine and real help, look at their records. Look at the tory cabinet and ask yourself if you see any of them coming to your rescue?
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Railway re-nationalisation
The ability to stop paying UK child benefits to children livin6g outside the UK
The freedom to set language rules for doctors from the EU
Our own rules on deporting EU criminals
Scrapping VAT on domestic energy
But we didn't need to leave the EU to nationalise the railways. Set language rules for doctors? What? Where did that crap come from? We could always deport EU criminals - my eldest Son has been involved in this process, it already happens, it's something we already do. FFS, get your head out of the Daily Mail - you've been lied to, and you continue to believe the lies!
NNK
Here we go again. Just because you’re ignorant to a fact doesn’t mean it’s not a fact.
Right now the UK CANNOT deliver a wholesale re-nationalisation of the railways. EU ownership and procurement rules make this impossible. And these rules are due to be tightened next year
EU criminals are protected from standard deportation by the EU citizens charter if they’ve lived in the UK for more than 5 years. Consequently, the deporting of these criminals is a long and laborious process involving many appeals.
Doctors from outside of the EU are tested on their ability to speak English. The UK attempted to introduce legislation to make these mandatory for doctors who’ve qualified in the EU. However this was challenged & opposed by the EU
The abolition of child benefits to kids living outside the UK?
The ability to scrap VAT on energy bills?
So, you’ve got 5 potential benefits to leaving the EU. I get you don’t like them because it goes against your narrative, but that’s not my problem. I’m sure in a few months time you’ll come back with the “just one benefit to leaving the eu’ line again. It’s standard practice for remainers. And again you’ll be presented with benefits which you’ll dismiss as lies simply because it’s an inconvenient truth. As for reading the Daily Mail, I wouldn’t wipe my arse on that rag, as you know. As I’ve said before, I’m immune to the abuse of rabid remainers now. It’s gone on so long that I rarely react to it.
-
Hang on.
You dismissed out of hand the predictions of economics experts with career-long records of making correct calls. THAT is what I mean about not listening. They've made clear, unambiguous predictions, with clear reasoning. You've chosen to dismiss them. So don't come the moral high ground on this one. If you simply ignore evidence that you don't like, you're not arguing like a grown up. You're just asserting.
Well for a start there's a trade deal to negotiate which clearly is in both sides interests to compromise on and achieve a win - win result .
I don't buy the chest thumping from either side pre trade deal talks so that's one aspect of these so called economic experts who seem to dismiss the result of a trade deal out of hand .
For all both you and I know a favourable deal could be struck .
The Germans and the French are already fighting like rats in a sack as to who is going to take up the slack minus our substantial financial contribution so it ain't the greatest idea in the world to knock us out of the trade game and the economic benefit to those two big hitters still left propping up the other 25 countries .
If I put my name or vote to something I go all the way Billy and I stand by my actions .
I did 12 months on strike in 84/85 with a 3 month old baby and a mortgage and didn't back away from what I believed in despite the desperation .
I walked away from thousands in redundancy because I wasn't getting talked down to by gaffers post strike because they knew we'd emptied our gun and I certainly wasn't working alongside scabs either who'd fecked us over , I left mining with nothing pal and I'd still go on strike today for 12 months if I believed in something like I did back then .
I had a vote in the referendum and I voted in what I personally believe to be right and no amount of bitter loser rhetoric will change me .
And let’s not forget...the European Community wholeheartedly and actively supported the Tory Governments pit closure plan in the 1990’s. They also facilitated the negotiations for the UK to purchase coal from European countries as part of the road map to Eastern European countries becoming members.
-
HA, thanks for your comprehensive reply to my comment the other day it did let selby off the hook but no matter it's a free forum of which most respect.
-
Tyke, you are one hundred per cent right, but in most cases on this forum you are sowing seeds on fallow ground mate, even water would not pass through the surface it is so thick.
-
HA.
Railway nationalisation. There is nothing in any EU regulations to stop us having a mainly nationalised system. And there's the point. The problem has been political will to do so. We in Britain have had 40 years of being one of the most right wing of economic philosophies in the EU. And you criticise the EU for being right wing! That's the bit I cannot get my head around when I hear people on the Left criticise the EU. Your argument is "You are stopping us from implementing a socialist programme that has never come remotely close to being voted for in this country for 70 years. So we are going to Leave and lose all the practical protections against the worst excesses of capitalism that you currently provide!"
It's quite bizarre and, frankly, petulant. And like I say, when Johnson and his cabal strip away the protections of workers' rights and environmental standards that the EU has built up, it is YOU and the rest of the Left Brexit supporters who will be directly responsible.
VAT on energy bills. We did used to have zero VAT on energy bills. The Tories imposed VAT in 1993. (You see a pattern emerging here?) Personally, I would prefer us to have a zero rate now, and I accept that the EU regulations (designed to stop countries in the Single Market undercutting each other) stop us doing this. But get it in perspective. For a family of four with a £1000 per year energy bill, it's 3p per person per day. Compare that to the fact that we've already lost 3% of GDP since voting to Leave. Which is nearly £3 per person per day. And rising.
UK being banned from having language tests for doctors. Have you got a source for that? I've never heard that one.
Deportation of criminals. We actually are not barred from deporting EU nationals who have lived here more than 5 years. We are not supposed to deport people who have committed minor crimes in those circumstances. For what it's worth, my take is that if someone has set up life in a country and then commits a minor crime, they are the responsibility of their established country. You don't shovel them off somewhere else. Or maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you support the recent deportation to Jamaica of people who have sold drugs and committed driving offences? In which case, we have very different concepts of what socialism means.
-
The UK is the only European country without a primarily nationalised railway network. Although to be acurate our railways are mostly state run. They are just run by the national state railways of other countries.
It's UK government policy since Thatcher that stop the UK having a nationalised railway network, not EU rules.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-railways-eu-rules-nationalise-single-market-restrictions-labour-a8968691.html
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Railway re-nationalisation
The ability to stop paying UK child benefits to children livin6g outside the UK
The freedom to set language rules for doctors from the EU
Our own rules on deporting EU criminals
Scrapping VAT on domestic energy
But we didn't need to leave the EU to nationalise the railways. Set language rules for doctors? What? Where did that crap come from? We could always deport EU criminals - my eldest Son has been involved in this process, it already happens, it's something we already do. FFS, get your head out of the Daily Mail - you've been lied to, and you continue to believe the lies!
NNK
Here we go again. Just because you’re ignorant to a fact doesn’t mean it’s not a fact.
Right now the UK CANNOT deliver a wholesale re-nationalisation of the railways. EU ownership and procurement rules make this impossible. And these rules are due to be tightened next year
EU criminals are protected from standard deportation by the EU citizens charter if they’ve lived in the UK for more than 5 years. Consequently, the deporting of these criminals is a long and laborious process involving many appeals.
Doctors from outside of the EU are tested on their ability to speak English. The UK attempted to introduce legislation to make these mandatory for doctors who’ve qualified in the EU. However this was challenged & opposed by the EU
The abolition of child benefits to kids living outside the UK?
The ability to scrap VAT on energy bills?
So, you’ve got 5 potential benefits to leaving the EU. I get you don’t like them because it goes against your narrative, but that’s not my problem. I’m sure in a few months time you’ll come back with the “just one benefit to leaving the eu’ line again. It’s standard practice for remainers. And again you’ll be presented with benefits which you’ll dismiss as lies simply because it’s an inconvenient truth. As for reading the Daily Mail, I wouldn’t wipe my arse on that rag, as you know. As I’ve said before, I’m immune to the abuse of rabid remainers now. It’s gone on so long that I rarely react to it.
Sadly, it's you who seem to be ignorant of the facts.
The UK can and could deliver wholesale nationalisation of the railways. It has already made a start with LNER. Also public ownership of at least one bank. That we don't choose to do so is entirely down to our successive governments.
As to deportation, I'd better tell my Son that he, and the security services are wrong then! There have though, been a number of lengthy appeals regarding deportation, these being mainly from areas of the world other than the EU, but you already knew this.
I was not aware of any language tests for doctors, hence my 'what?' I will look into this further,
I didn't respond to your child benefit statement as it is a reciprocal arrangement throughout all of the EU; as are many other benefits that Brits abroad will now be deprived of.
I didn't respond to your VAT on energy bills either as there appears to be appetite from this, or any previous government, to do so. Now if you'd said female sanitary products....
And you talk about 'potential' benefits. None of these are promised or guaranteed! So, no tangible benefits to the country.
Meanwhile https://www.ft.com/content/6cf7bba6-598f-11ea-abe5-8e03987b7b20
50,000 jobs processing the new customs paperwork. Let's say around £20k a year salary each, so that's an additional £19 million a week, or £1 billion a gear give or take, and that's not including the costs associated with training and the technology behind it - to do something that was a zero cost to us before Brexit as we didn't have to do it. Then there's the cost to companies in producing all the necessary paperwork in the first place. Money which could have been spent on the NHS; but hey, your lot promised £350k a week for the NHS, I wonder if they'll deliver?
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .
I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!
The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .
There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .
As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .
You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .
Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .
I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .
The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .
Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .
Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .
You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .
Thankfully we were given that opportunity .
Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off! Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail. No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!
Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .
No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .
Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .
Must be the Sun then? Or the Express? Possibly the Times?
Oh, and the only people who lost are the working class people of this country.
Now, are you going to tell us how we are definitely going to be better off outside the EU, not ifs buts and maybe with a fair wind, and how you are going to make it work and deliver the lies you chose to believe - you voted for it, now own it!
-
By the way Tyke. That Globalisation that you keep on decrying. It's led the thick end of 2 billion people out of abject poverty and into reasonable living standards over this past 30 years.
The EU has massively lifted the living standards from Estonia to Portugal.
If you were truly socialist, you'd embrace that. Instead of coming out with the childish "neoliberal" insult.
Billy nobody cares about lifting poverty in Estonia in the leave voting heartlands .
Why would they in the most deprived areas of the UK ? .
Your just demonstrating what the working class in the heartlands think of the Labour Party today .
Just how disconnected can you be and yet you carry on banging the EU drum .
Without the historic Labour vote in the heartlands you have absolutely nothing and you deserve absolutely nothing given the attitude towards the leave voters .
If pinning your hopes on leaving the EU leading to economic Armageddon is the way to knock the leave voters in to line and coming back to the party then I'm afraid you maybe heading for a very long wait .
Your first task should be to understand why the heartlands voted the way they did and have abandoned the party in their thousands .
Actually acknowledging Labour have the problem not the electorate would be a good start for them and yourself going forward .
Labour were absolutely annihilated Billy and lost seats they comfortably win and yet the electorate have the problem ?
Really !!
Your stock answer to this would be to rejoin the EU , reopen the borders and free movement and carry on lifting Estonians out of poverty .
Good luck selling that one around here .
-
By the way Tyke. That Globalisation that you keep on decrying. It's led the thick end of 2 billion people out of abject poverty and into reasonable living standards over this past 30 years.
The EU has massively lifted the living standards from Estonia to Portugal.
If you were truly socialist, you'd embrace that. Instead of coming out with the childish "neoliberal" insult.
Billy nobody cares about lifting poverty in Estonia in the leave voting heartlands .
Why would they in the most deprived areas of the UK ? .
Your just demonstrating what the working class in the heartlands think of the Labour Party today .
Just how disconnected can you be and yet you carry on banging the EU drum .
Without the historic Labour vote in the heartlands you have absolutely nothing and you deserve absolutely nothing given the attitude towards the leave voters .
If pinning your hopes on leaving the EU leading to economic Armageddon is the way to knock the leave voters in to line and coming back to the party then I'm afraid you maybe heading for a very long wait .
Your first task should be to understand why the heartlands voted the way they did and have abandoned the party in their thousands .
Actually acknowledging Labour have the problem not the electorate would be a good start for them and yourself going forward .
Labour were absolutely annihilated Billy and lost seats they comfortably win and yet the electorate have the problem ?
Really !!
Your stock answer to this would be to rejoin the EU , reopen the borders and free movement and carry on lifting Estonians out of poverty .
Good luck selling that one around here .
And what's going to happen in the Labour heartlands when the EU grants disappear and the Tories keep their hands in their pockets?
-
Tyke.
Yeah. We do live in a poor part of Europe. Which is why the tax payers of Barcelona and Paris and Amsterdam and Frankfurt and Vienna and Helsinki were about to pour €3.3bn Euros of funds into South Yorkshire.
You and your like have told them to f**k off because we don't want that money. Good call, that.
By the way, find me a single post where I have said that we should rejoin the EU.
And when you can't, go and sit down and ask yourself why you are setting up straw men who don't exist to argue against.
-
Tyke.
Yeah. We do live in a poor part of Europe. Which is why the tax payers of Barcelona and Paris and Amsterdam and Frankfurt and Vienna and Helsinki were about to pour €3.3bn Euros of funds into South Yorkshire.
You and your like have told them to f**k off because we don't want that money. Good call, that.
By the way, find me a single post where I have said that we should rejoin the EU.
And when you can't, go and sit down and ask yourself why you are setting up straw men who don't exist to argue against.
But you would like to see the UK in the EU again given the depth to your EU support and the faith you seem to have in them .
With such strong views how could that possibly not be the case ?
-
Because I accept the situation we are in. I think we SHOULD be in the EU, but we won't be again in my lifetime. Your side won. I accept that and it would be highly damaging to society to go through once again what you have just put us through.
I'll be spending the rest of my working life trying to minimise the damage. And I reserve the right to remind you of that damage as it rolls out over the years and decades. It's already started with the real point of Brexit - putting this Kitson and his cabal in No10.
Now grow up,accept the consequences of what you have done, and stop blaming others.
And while you're at it, stop assuming you know what people think. Read what they write, not what the caracature you want them to be would think.
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .
I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!
The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .
There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .
As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .
You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .
Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .
I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .
The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .
Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .
Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .
You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .
Thankfully we were given that opportunity .
Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off! Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail. No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!
Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .
No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .
Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .
Must be the Sun then? Or the Express? Possibly the Times?
Oh, and the only people who lost are the working class people of this country.
Now, are you going to tell us how we are definitely going to be better off outside the EU, not ifs buts and maybe with a fair wind, and how you are going to make it work and deliver the lies you chose to believe - you voted for it, now own it!
Yorkshire Post pal .
Membership of the EU keeps the UK from fully capitalising on trade with other major economies such as Japan , India and the US .
The EU subjects the UK to slow and inflexible bureaucracy making it hard for small companies to do business .
Improved global trade agreements and selective immigration will have a positive impact on the UK job market .
The average person in the UK loses hundreds of pounds each year to EU VAT contributions and agricultural subsidies .
That's not even mentioning the huge financial contribution we pay each year .
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Railway re-nationalisation
The ability to stop paying UK child benefits to children livin6g outside the UK
The freedom to set language rules for doctors from the EU
Our own rules on deporting EU criminals
Scrapping VAT on domestic energy
But we didn't need to leave the EU to nationalise the railways. Set language rules for doctors? What? Where did that crap come from? We could always deport EU criminals - my eldest Son has been involved in this process, it already happens, it's something we already do. FFS, get your head out of the Daily Mail - you've been lied to, and you continue to believe the lies!
NNK
Here we go again. Just because you’re ignorant to a fact doesn’t mean it’s not a fact.
Right now the UK CANNOT deliver a wholesale re-nationalisation of the railways. EU ownership and procurement rules make this impossible. And these rules are due to be tightened next year
EU criminals are protected from standard deportation by the EU citizens charter if they’ve lived in the UK for more than 5 years. Consequently, the deporting of these criminals is a long and laborious process involving many appeals.
Doctors from outside of the EU are tested on their ability to speak English. The UK attempted to introduce legislation to make these mandatory for doctors who’ve qualified in the EU. However this was challenged & opposed by the EU
The abolition of child benefits to kids living outside the UK?
The ability to scrap VAT on energy bills?
So, you’ve got 5 potential benefits to leaving the EU. I get you don’t like them because it goes against your narrative, but that’s not my problem. I’m sure in a few months time you’ll come back with the “just one benefit to leaving the eu’ line again. It’s standard practice for remainers. And again you’ll be presented with benefits which you’ll dismiss as lies simply because it’s an inconvenient truth. As for reading the Daily Mail, I wouldn’t wipe my arse on that rag, as you know. As I’ve said before, I’m immune to the abuse of rabid remainers now. It’s gone on so long that I rarely react to it.
Sadly, it's you who seem to be ignorant of the facts.
The UK can and could deliver wholesale nationalisation of the railways. It has already made a start with LNER. Also public ownership of at least one bank. That we don't choose to do so is entirely down to our successive governments.
As to deportation, I'd better tell my Son that he, and the security services are wrong then! There have though, been a number of lengthy appeals regarding deportation, these being mainly from areas of the world other than the EU, but you already knew this.
I was not aware of any language tests for doctors, hence my 'what?' I will look into this further,
I didn't respond to your child benefit statement as it is a reciprocal arrangement throughout all of the EU; as are many other benefits that Brits abroad will now be deprived of.
I didn't respond to your VAT on energy bills either as there appears to be appetite from this, or any previous government, to do so. Now if you'd said female sanitary products....
And you talk about 'potential' benefits. None of these are promised or guaranteed! So, no tangible benefits to the country.
Meanwhile https://www.ft.com/content/6cf7bba6-598f-11ea-abe5-8e03987b7b20
50,000 jobs processing the new customs paperwork. Let's say around £20k a year salary each, so that's an additional £19 million a week, or £1 billion a gear give or take, and that's not including the costs associated with training and the technology behind it - to do something that was a zero cost to us before Brexit as we didn't have to do it. Then there's the cost to companies in producing all the necessary paperwork in the first place. Money which could have been spent on the NHS; but hey, your lot promised £350k a week for the NHS, I wonder if they'll deliver?
NNK
You simply refuse to believe anything remotely positive regarding Brexit because it would make you wrong; simple. They are still potential benefits because we’ve only just left!!
Oh, and regarding the railway, you’re wrong (again). EU procurement rules mean the government cannot place every area of the rail network into public ownership. I’ve been involved in reviewing this for one reason and another. Do yourself a favour and read up on this.
BTW, the last Labour government attempted to introduce zero vat on energy...and this was vetoed by the EU.
There was a case on the radio last year of a Romanian criminal who couldn’t be deported, as a result of his EU citizenship
You’re so blinkered in your views NNK that any evidence to the contrary is just dismissed. On that basis, I’m not wasting any more time on this. Bit of a tip though, I’d recommend that you stop reading the Guardian and base your opinion on facts instead.
-
Because I accept the situation we are in. I think we SHOULD be in the EU, but we won't be again in my lifetime. Your side won. I accept that and it would be highly damaging to society to go through once again what you have just put us through.
I'll be spending the rest of my working life trying to minimise the damage. And I reserve the right to remind you of that damage as it rolls out over the years and decades. It's already started with the real point of Brexit - putting this Kitson and his cabal in No10.
Now grow up,accept the consequences of what you have done, and stop blaming others.
And while you're at it, stop assuming you know what people think. Read what they write, not what the caracature you want them to be would think.
So it's descended to that level has it ?
Grow up and accept the consequences of what you've done .
Equally why don't you accept the consequences of your party's insane Brexit strategy and the next decade of tory rule .
-
Tyke. It's YOUR Brexit. That's what I mean when I ask you to own it. This is what you voted for
Regarding Labour's failure, I've asked you before for your observations on what happened to Labour's support when Corbyn unequivocally embraced Brexit 12 months ago. I suggest you go and consider that, THEN come back and see if you really want to discuss the problems with Labour's approach to Brexit.
Go on. In your own time.
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .
I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!
The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .
There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .
As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .
You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .
Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .
I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .
The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .
Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .
Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .
You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .
Thankfully we were given that opportunity .
Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off! Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail. No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!
Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .
No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .
Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .
Must be the Sun then? Or the Express? Possibly the Times?
Oh, and the only people who lost are the working class people of this country.
Now, are you going to tell us how we are definitely going to be better off outside the EU, not ifs buts and maybe with a fair wind, and how you are going to make it work and deliver the lies you chose to believe - you voted for it, now own it!
Yorkshire Post pal .
Membership of the EU keeps the UK from fully capitalising on trade with other major economies such as Japan , India and the US .
The EU subjects the UK to slow and inflexible bureaucracy making it hard for small companies to do business .
Improved global trade agreements and selective immigration will have a positive impact on the UK job market .
The average person in the UK loses hundreds of pounds each year to EU VAT contributions and agricultural subsidies .
That's not even mentioning the huge financial contribution we pay each year .
And ever-so-conveniently not even mentioning the massive economic benefits from membership of the Single Market that are always ignored in lists of this kind.
-
That's the bit I never get Glyn.
I understand why folk on the Right want us out. It's all about nationalism and I get that.
But in the Left?
The logic seems to go:
1) If we all work together in Europe, bringing down barriers to trade, we all benefit greatly. There's nobody outside a few swivel eyed right wing economists who doubts that.
2) The EU also has a very progressive approach to redistribution of money to economically disadvantaged areas. Like Northern England. They are prepared to take huge sums from richer areas (like London and the like) and pour it into South Yorkshire.
3) The EU has also played a huge role in reducing international frictions in Europe, securing democracy and helping defuse centuries old conflicts.
4) EU critics on the Left ignore all that and say " if I'm not allowed to renationalise the Donny to Goole line, I want us out!"
It's a bizarrely blinkered approach. Focus relentlessly on the negatives of membership, exaggerate those in a style that a Mail editorial would be proud of, and totally ignore the positives. Then scream "neo-liberal, class traitor" at anyone on the Left who disagrees with them.
-
Tyke. It's YOUR Brexit. That's what I mean when I ask you to own it. This is what you voted for
Regarding Labour's failure, I've asked you before for your observations on what happened to Labour's support when Corbyn unequivocally embraced Brexit 12 months ago. I suggest you go and consider that, THEN come back and see if you really want to discuss the problems with Labour's approach to Brexit.
Go on. In your own time.
Well you tell me what Corbyn's position was because clearly he didn't know himself from one day to another .
Somewhere between Leave and Remain perhaps ?
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-changing-brexit-stance
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .
I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!
The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .
There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .
As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .
You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .
Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .
I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .
The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .
Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .
Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .
You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .
Thankfully we were given that opportunity .
Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off! Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail. No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!
Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .
No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .
Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .
Must be the Sun then? Or the Express? Possibly the Times?
Oh, and the only people who lost are the working class people of this country.
Now, are you going to tell us how we are definitely going to be better off outside the EU, not ifs buts and maybe with a fair wind, and how you are going to make it work and deliver the lies you chose to believe - you voted for it, now own it!
Yorkshire Post pal .
Membership of the EU keeps the UK from fully capitalising on trade with other major economies such as Japan , India and the US .
The EU subjects the UK to slow and inflexible bureaucracy making it hard for small companies to do business .
Improved global trade agreements and selective immigration will have a positive impact on the UK job market .
The average person in the UK loses hundreds of pounds each year to EU VAT contributions and agricultural subsidies .
That's not even mentioning the huge financial contribution we pay each year .
And ever-so-conveniently not even mentioning the massive economic benefits from membership of the Single Market that are always ignored in lists of this kind.
Membership of the single market comes with strings attached , acceptance of the four freedoms and £13bn a year .
It also comes with allowing unelected EU bureaucrats making decisions that greatly affect your everyday life without you having the right to vote them out if you don't like them .
It's about as democratic and accountable as North Korea .
-
Tyke.
Don't ask me to defend Corbyn over Brexit. He was a car crash.
But THIS is where the trouble started.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu
Back then, Labour were on 39-40% in the polls. Within 5 months, they'd sunk to 19%. With the vast majority of the 5-6 million people who'd evaporated from Labour,moving to the LDs or Greens
Those are the facts. Address those before you start accusing those who talked Corbyn down from that position of losing the Election.
-
Tyke.
Don't ask me to defend Corbyn over Brexit. He was a car crash.
But THIS is where the trouble started.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu
Back then, Labour were on 39-40% in the polls. Within 5 months, they'd sunk to 19%. With the vast majority of the 5-6 million people who'd evaporated from Labour,moving to the LDs or Greens
Those are the facts. Address those before you start accusing those who talked Corbyn down from that position of losing the Election.
Billy
I'm puzzled by your figures of 5 to 6 million voters who left Labour to The Greens and Lib Dems .
The election in december had the Lib Dem vote share up by 1.3 million and the total Green vote was only 850k .
Clearly this mass exodus didn't convert to votes at the GE .
It's pretty much accepted that Labour's ambiguous brexit position caused them the most harm rather than anything else .
It got to a point where Thornberry would have campaigned against her own party's brexit deal if they'd entered government .
The electorate in the heartlands worked it out that the Labour Party weren't with them on Brexit and I suspect the party as a whole shrugged their shoulders and said so what whilst embracing the London middle class remainers .
The final straw for many and they won't be returning in a hurry I can tell you .
I only voted Labour because I didn't dare risk the embarrassment of my town electing a tory and respecting history of my town and Tory governments .
That's actually not a great endorsement I can tell you and I really had to grit my teeth .
The depth of dislike bordering on hatred for Labour around Barnsley is substantial .
Bordering on the hatred we had for Thatcher in the 80's .
Yes it's that deep but that's what happens when you feck over your own and its actually worse than the tories doing you over because you expect that anyway .
-
Looks like the usual suspects minus Syd who will be reading the Guardian for a couple of quotes are having a hard time of it today, although still largely in denial of why they were left behind and ended up big time losers.
And how can we quantify their thoughts after three and a half years, still bitter and twisted, still blaming the older and uneducated people, still hoping that their own country fails to be a success just to prove their point, confident in their own ability to be right in everything on this particular subject, while being totally dismissive and in most cases down right nasty to anyone with a different opinion to them
-
Tyke.
You are highly intelligent but you're refusing to look at the bleeding obvious here. I shouldn't need to spell it out to you.
For the first half of 2019, Labour had the Brexit policy you wanted. Supporting us leaving. The result was that Labour dropped from 40% to 19% in the polls, with almost everyone they lost moving to supporting the avowedly Remain supporting LDs and Greens.
That is established fact.
Labour changed its Brexit policy after that because it was facing not a defeat but nationwide oblivion.
Yes, that change caused problems in Northern Leave-supporting seats. That is nothing to the damage that would have been done if Labour hadn't changed policy. In Summer 2019, Labour was in serious danger of being replaced by the LDs as the main opposition to the Tories. It was only by changing the Brexit policy that Labour was able to neutralise that threat, and pull itself back up to around 30% by Election time.
You are making a fundamental logical error. Labour went into the Election supporting a second referendum and lost. That does not mean that they lost BECAUSE they went into the Election supporting a second referendum. The polling evidence from Summer 2019 suggests that, had they gone into the Election supporting Brexit, they'd have been pretty much wiped out.
What you are doing here is precisely what you do when you criticise the EU. You criticise the bits that you don't like. But you don't consider the flip side - the counterbalancing advantages.
-
Tyke.
You are highly intelligent but you're refusing to look at the bleeding obvious here. I shouldn't need to spell it out to you.
For the first half of 2019, Labour had the Brexit policy you wanted. Supporting us leaving. The result was that Labour dropped from 40% to 19% in the polls, with almost everyone they lost moving to supporting the avowedly Remain supporting LDs and Greens.
That is established fact.
Labour changed its Brexit policy after that because it was facing not a defeat but nationwide oblivion.
Yes, that change caused problems in Northern Leave-supporting seats. That is nothing to the damage that would have been done if Labour hadn't changed policy. In Summer 2019, Labour was in serious danger of being replaced by the LDs as the main opposition to the Tories. It was only by changing the Brexit policy that Labour was able to neutralise that threat, and pull itself back up to around 30% by Election time.
You are making a fundamental logical error. Labour went into the Election supporting a second referendum and lost. That does not mean that they lost BECAUSE they went into the Election supporting a second referendum. The polling evidence from Summer 2019 suggests that, had they gone into the Election supporting Brexit, they'd have been pretty much wiped out.
What you are doing here is precisely what you do when you criticise the EU. You criticise the bits that you don't like. But you don't consider the flip side - the counterbalancing advantages.
So basically they sacrificed 52 seats so they could finish second and not third or fourth .
The heartlands were the sacrificial lamb to keep the London vote even though they were absolutely hammered anyway .
Well that's fair enough and at least I have it confirmed from a Labour man who I suspect is more than just a Labour voter and probably active within the party .
It's pretty clear to me that the Labour Party no longer represents me when push comes to shove .
That's totally fine and I'll vote accordingly in the future .
-
Looks like the usual suspects minus Syd who will be reading the Guardian for a couple of quotes are having a hard time of it today, although still largely in denial of why they were left behind and ended up big time losers.
And how can we quantify their thoughts after three and a half years, still bitter and twisted, still blaming the older and uneducated people, still hoping that their own country fails to be a success just to prove their point, confident in their own ability to be right in everything on this particular subject, while being totally dismissive and in most cases down right nasty to anyone with a different opinion to them
Usual dribble selby still suffering ADD then :)
-
I got the same one on the hook again, I keep chucking him back but he never learns.
-
Tyke.
Like I say. You determinedly ignore the counterfactual.
Yes. I KNOW Labour lost those seats. But saying they were sacrificed is, frankly, stupid. And what would have been the point of winning those 52 and losing 100+ others? Labour, in Autumn 2019, had to find a way to give itself the best chance of making something out of a nightmare position. The result was a shocker, but that defeat may have been the least bad one it could expect.
You say you'll not support Labour in future. Why precisely? Because it went into the 2019 election offering a second referendum? That sounds like petulance to be honest. Your choice of course, but if that's your attitude, I don't want to be part of a party that comes begging you. I'd rather look to court the younger generation coming through. You and your outdated attitudes are the past.
-
I got the same one on the hook again, I keep chucking him back but he never learns.
Sorry to see you still have ADD selby, if problems persist please see your doctor. An overused 'get out' I'm only fishing on your part as well selby why don't you register your dog for the politics and stick to football :)
-
Tyke.
Like I say. You determinedly ignore the counterfactual.
Yes. I KNOW Labour lost those seats. But saying they were sacrificed is, frankly, stupid. And what would have been the point of winning those 52 and losing 100+ others? Labour, in Autumn 2019, had to find a way to give itself the best chance of making something out of a nightmare position. The result was a shocker, but that defeat may have been the least bad one it could expect.
You say you'll not support Labour in future. Why precisely? Because it went into the 2019 election offering a second referendum? That sounds like petulance to be honest. Your choice of course, but if that's your attitude, I don't want to be part of a party that comes begging you. I'd rather look to court the younger generation coming through. You and your outdated attitudes are the past.
The second referendum was the thing that finally broke the Labour Party are in a difficult position and selling me down the road .
Once those words were uttered that was when the line was crossed .
Nobody but nobody should have to vote twice on a referendum , end of , the result is the result and I'd say the same had remain won .
You go court the younger vote Billy , knock yourself out pal .
40 years I've voted Labour , held membership , financed the party through trade union membership and fought the tories both physically and otherwise .
See if they are made of the same stuff as myself and thousands more .
Good luck with that .
-
Let me just offer up some facts regarding where the Labour Party is surrounding Brexit .
Now people can continue to bash leave voters till the cows come home , this is a forum and it's fuelled by opinions but just consider this if you wish to see a Labour government in power after the next election .
73% of Leave voters voted Tory , presumably to get Brexit done .
Of the 54 seats Labour lost to the Tories at the last election 52 of them voted Leave in 2016 .
To form a minority government at the next election Labour need to win back 78 seats from the Tories that were won with less than a 15% majority and 80% of these seats voted Leave .
To put it another way Labour need to win at least 30% of the Leave vote from 2016 .
People who voted Leave voted Leave for what ever reason they wished and they had a democratic right to do so .
The cleverest Remainer in the building isn't particularly smart if you wish to see a Labour government any time soon .
We have five years of Tory rule with a huge majority and we have left the EU .
You may as well carry on fighting the miners strike as keep on fighting the 2016 referendum for what good it will produce .
The electorate have democratically rejected free movement and in part globalisation so no you can't just go over to Italy and work because the electorate voted against it , the electorate returned a Tory government in 1987 on the back of the Miners strike and I didn't care too much for that either but that's democracy .
The smartest remainer in the building ain't a good look , trust me it isn't .
You're missing the point here Tyke. No one is fighting the 2016 referendum. That has happened, decision made and we are now in transition to leave the EU. What I, as a remainer, am waiting for is for the leavers who voted for this mess to get off their arses and deliver on the lies that led them to vote the way they did. Until they do I will continue to challenge them and their failed logic. They will be the ones that have to provide the answers to subsequent generations as to why our children and grandchildren are less fortunate then their counterparts in the EU.
I have asked, and will continue to ask, leave voters to give me one concrete answer as to how we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU. To date, their silence has been deafening. Do you have one?
Yes I have one in fact I have quite a few .
I've never wanted the EU since I was a miner in the 80's and started becoming political active , the left were against the EU then and aligned themselves with the right , how times change !!!
The road towards a United States Of Europe isn't for me despite what the Euromaniacs tell you that it isn't on the agenda .
There's only one flag for me and it's called the Union Jack .
As a trade agreement it's fine , no problem but one of the four apparently irreversible freedoms is flawed .
You cannot place human beings alongside goods and services it just simply does not work like that , Polish beer and Polish workers are the same are they ? .
Of course they aren't but you either accept the four freedoms or you don't , there is no compromise with the EU , ask Cameron .
I also oppose neoliberalism massively , the EU are a neoliberal project whose unelected bureaucrats are under the spell of Lobbying by the big multinationals and they get what they want , free movement of cheap labour to name but one .
The amount of agencies that have sprung up in this country since the borders were opened to all is an absolute disgrace , working for a pittance , no real rights and protection to fuel the fat cats in the boardroom , you call this progress and yet it's Leavers who are called out as backward thinking .
Something every Labour movement should oppose but apparently not these days given their foot stamping when the government announced the immigration points system recently .
Junker's on the record as to how they go about things and their end game , ignore the consensus and carry on with the project , by the time the people find out it's already too late .
You can vote government's out every five years if they are failing but you can't vote the EU out and change its direction of travel .
Thankfully we were given that opportunity .
Typical leave voter response Tyke. It's all about what you don't like, all about your prejudices, not one single tangible, measurable, quantifiable benefit as to how we, as a country will be better off! Just garbage rhetoric of the type you read in the Daily Mail. No wonder the country is in the mess that it is in!
Is that all you have , I've never read the Daily Mail in my life .
No wonder you lost , I was actually amazed the vote was so close to tell the truth .
Give it up man , the bankers in 2008 have more credibility than you lot .
Must be the Sun then? Or the Express? Possibly the Times?
Oh, and the only people who lost are the working class people of this country.
Now, are you going to tell us how we are definitely going to be better off outside the EU, not ifs buts and maybe with a fair wind, and how you are going to make it work and deliver the lies you chose to believe - you voted for it, now own it!
Yorkshire Post pal .
Membership of the EU keeps the UK from fully capitalising on trade with other major economies such as Japan , India and the US .
The EU subjects the UK to slow and inflexible bureaucracy making it hard for small companies to do business .
Improved global trade agreements and selective immigration will have a positive impact on the UK job market .
The average person in the UK loses hundreds of pounds each year to EU VAT contributions and agricultural subsidies .
That's not even mentioning the huge financial contribution we pay each year .
And ever-so-conveniently not even mentioning the massive economic benefits from membership of the Single Market that are always ignored in lists of this kind.
Membership of the single market comes with strings attached , acceptance of the four freedoms and £13bn a year .
It also comes with allowing unelected EU bureaucrats making decisions that greatly affect your everyday life without you having the right to vote them out if you don't like them .
It's about as democratic and accountable as North Korea .
Just like the UK then. I don't know what you're moaning about.
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
-
It is Sunday, gods day, and I find myself agreeing with a post by Sydney, it is truly a miracle.
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.
Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.
Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.
You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .
-
I'm fascinated how none of the virulent anti-EU lot have anything to say about the €3.3bn of funding that South Yorkshire was going to get from the EU had we stayed in. A torrent of complaints about minor costs of membership to us in SY. Not a peep about that funding.
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.
Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.
You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .
Amending legislation isn't 'holding the government to account' either. To hold the government to account they need to question them directly, like they are in Select Committee. When do they do that? Answer: they don't.
And who exactly is it that holds the House Of Lords to account as you say they are?
PS you seem to have 'conveniently forgotten' me asking how the people can get rid of a member of the House of Lords too.
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.
Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.
You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .
Some good that did eh Tyke. Cos it's right back on the table now, with no way whatsoever to stop it if the Govt decided that's what is happening.
That's an outcome that the Leave side insisted was Project Fear in 2016. It's an outcome that has never ever had anything remotely close to majority support. But that's where we are heading now, with no way to prevent the Govt (elected with 44% of the vote) from doing it.
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.
Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.
You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .
Amending legislation isn't 'holding the government to account' either. To hold the government to account they need to question them directly, like they are in Select Committee. When do they do that? Answer: they don't.
And who exactly is it that holds the House Of Lords to account as you say they are?
PS you seem to have 'conveniently forgotten' me asking how the people can get rid of a member of the House of Lords too.
It's based on trust and a solid career record of competence which isn't to say one or two haven't slid under the door .
I wouldn't go as far as to say it's perfect but what is ?but I honestly believe we would as a nation be less democratic without it .
A decent enough firewall but not perfect would be my assessment .
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.
Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.
You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .
Amending legislation isn't 'holding the government to account' either. To hold the government to account they need to question them directly, like they are in Select Committee. When do they do that? Answer: they don't.
And who exactly is it that holds the House Of Lords to account as you say they are?
PS you seem to have 'conveniently forgotten' me asking how the people can get rid of a member of the House of Lords too.
It's based on trust and a solid career record of competence which isn't to say one or two haven't slid under the door .
I wouldn't go as far as to say it's perfect but what is ?but I honestly believe we would as a nation be less democratic without it .
A decent enough firewall but not perfect would be my assessment .
So they aren't accountable and don't hold the government to account, then?
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.
Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.
You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .
Some good that did eh Tyke. Cos it's right back on the table now, with no way whatsoever to stop it if the Govt decided that's what is happening.
That's an outcome that the Leave side insisted was Project Fear in 2016. It's an outcome that has never ever had anything remotely close to majority support. But that's where we are heading now, with no way to prevent the Govt (elected with 44% of the vote) from doing it.
Tends to happen when you have an opposition as clueless as the Labour Party are and get walloped .
There are many ingredients in a disaster pie Billy not just 52% of the pastry .
This principled man lost his seat as a consequence , a man who served his constituents since 1970 .
Still the younger generation will easily replace him hey !!
You might want to listen to him and dwell on his comments from two years ago .
https://youtu.be/3xIpjA6dol8
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.
Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.
You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .
Amending legislation isn't 'holding the government to account' either. To hold the government to account they need to question them directly, like they are in Select Committee. When do they do that? Answer: they don't.
And who exactly is it that holds the House Of Lords to account as you say they are?
PS you seem to have 'conveniently forgotten' me asking how the people can get rid of a member of the House of Lords too.
It's based on trust and a solid career record of competence which isn't to say one or two haven't slid under the door .
I wouldn't go as far as to say it's perfect but what is ?but I honestly believe we would as a nation be less democratic without it .
A decent enough firewall but not perfect would be my assessment .
So they aren't accountable and don't hold the government to account, then?
You'll do very well to try and put words in my mouth Glyn and have an impact with 30 years union work playing cat and mouse but knock yourself out .
I've addressed your point and gave you my opinion .
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.
Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.
You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .
Amending legislation isn't 'holding the government to account' either. To hold the government to account they need to question them directly, like they are in Select Committee. When do they do that? Answer: they don't.
And who exactly is it that holds the House Of Lords to account as you say they are?
PS you seem to have 'conveniently forgotten' me asking how the people can get rid of a member of the House of Lords too.
It's based on trust and a solid career record of competence which isn't to say one or two haven't slid under the door .
I wouldn't go as far as to say it's perfect but what is ?but I honestly believe we would as a nation be less democratic without it .
A decent enough firewall but not perfect would be my assessment .
So they aren't accountable and don't hold the government to account, then?
You'll do very well to try and put words in my mouth Glyn and have an impact with 30 years union work playing cat and mouse but knock yourself out .
I've addressed your point and gave you my opinion .
Ah, so now you saying the House Of Lords being accountable and holding the government to account isn't a fact, it's just your opinion?
And far from putting things in your mouth, I'm trying to understand these words that DID come out of your mouth:
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account
hold any water whatsoever.
PS I might not have 30 years experience of union work, but I do have 20 years experience of conducting interviews under caution under my belt.
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
They're accountable?? Don't talk rubbish. Unless you somehow know the secret of how the people can get rid of one they don't like.
Oh, and PS: scrutinising legislation is NOT 'holding the government to account' either.
You seem to have conveniently forgotten them taking a no deal brexit off the table last year .
Some good that did eh Tyke. Cos it's right back on the table now, with no way whatsoever to stop it if the Govt decided that's what is happening.
That's an outcome that the Leave side insisted was Project Fear in 2016. It's an outcome that has never ever had anything remotely close to majority support. But that's where we are heading now, with no way to prevent the Govt (elected with 44% of the vote) from doing it.
Tends to happen when you have an opposition as clueless as the Labour Party are and get walloped .
There are many ingredients in a disaster pie Billy not just 52% of the pastry .
This principled man lost his seat as a consequence , a man who served his constituents since 1970 .
Still the younger generation will easily replace him hey !!
You might want to listen to him and dwell on his comments from two years ago .
https://youtu.be/3xIpjA6dol8
Does your comment include the members of the Labour Party who said dont have an election until Brexit is resolved or you will get walloped?
If only we had such astute politicans as Jo Swinson who thought she could become PM after 'winning' the EU elections and was the primary reason we had the last GE.
The government was elected by 36% of the voting population btw. But 100% of us will suffer the consequences.
-
Tyke.
So let me get this right.
We had a referendum that voted Leave in 2016.
In that referendum, the idea of leaving with no deal was never seriously discussed. And when it was, it was shouted down as Project Fear by the Leave side. In fact, the precise form of Leave we'd end up with was never discussed. It was just hand waving "Oh we'll sort that out later" stuff.
Agreed up to here? Just yes or no. You'd be silly not to agree because it's established fact.
We have never had an opinion poll in which anything close to a majority wants No Deal?
Still with me? Again, you can feel free to demur, but that would be silly because it's a fact.
No we have a Govt openly touting that we walk away from negotiations in 4 months, and start preparing for No Deal.
Agreed?
So let me get this straight. You reckon that those who advocated a second referendum to prevent PRECISELY this outcome are such traitors to democracy that you want never ever support their party again?
Just indulge me. Run by me the logic by which you arrive at that conclusion.
-
You'll do very well to try and put words in my mouth Glyn and have an impact with 30 years union work playing cat and mouse but knock yourself out .
I've addressed your point and gave you my opinion .
[/quote]
Not sure that's a particularly strong argument to use Tyke given the disastrous mess that union leadership generally has made of unionism over the last 40 years. Oddly enough that looks rather like the timescale you claim to have been involved...
Poor old Tony Blair was right wasn't he? What this country needs, very badly indeed, is 'Education. Education. Education'. Otherwise, on the evidence of this thread, there seems to be no other way to remove the curtains of wilful, self inflicted blindness.
Regards
BobG
-
Tyke.
So let me get this right.
We had a referendum that voted Leave in 2016.
In that referendum, the idea of leaving with no deal was never seriously discussed. And when it was, it was shouted down as Project Fear by the Leave side. In fact, the precise form of Leave we'd end up with was never discussed. It was just hand waving "Oh we'll sort that out later" stuff.
Agreed up to here? Just yes or no. You'd be silly not to agree because it's established fact.
We have never had an opinion poll in which anything close to a majority wants No Deal?
Still with me? Again, you can feel free to demur, but that would be silly because it's a fact.
No we have a Govt openly touting that we walk away from negotiations in 4 months, and start preparing for No Deal.
Agreed?
So let me get this straight. You reckon that those who advocated a second referendum to prevent PRECISELY this outcome are such traitors to democracy that you want never ever support their party again?
Just indulge me. Run by me the logic by which you arrive at that conclusion.
Well I can only speak for myself on how I understood what was written on the referendum ballot paper .
Remain In The EU
Leave The EU
How simple could it possibly be ?
Well apparently it became ambiguous surprising as that maybe when the wrong result was delivered .
Now I presume if Remaining in the EU had won then there wouldn't be any ambiguity about it , we would have stayed as we are , end of story .
But apparently the exact opposite of Remaining in the EU which is Leaving the EU is too difficult to understand .
I understood it to leave the EU in it's entirety because that's what it said on the ballot paper as Remaining in the EU meant errrr ........ we remain .
The truth is the wrong result came in and so the pantomime began .
Ah well we never said anything about trade , single market , immigration etc etc etc
Yes you did , you said leave the EU and as I say I understood it as was written down for me on the ballot paper .
It's impossible not to have it put to you in more honest and clear terms .
As I say I only speak for myself .
I had no part of the Leave Campaign in fact I turned off from it , bored me to tears .
I'd made up my mind decades ago about the EU and didn't need Farage to tell me what's what .
-
You'll do very well to try and put words in my mouth Glyn and have an impact with 30 years union work playing cat and mouse but knock yourself out .
I've addressed your point and gave you my opinion .
Not sure that's a particularly strong argument to use Tyke given the disastrous mess that union leadership generally has made of unionism over the last 40 years. Oddly enough that looks rather like the timescale you claim to have been involved...
Poor old Tony Blair was right wasn't he? What this country needs, very badly indeed, is 'Education. Education. Education'. Otherwise, on the evidence of this thread, there seems to be no other way to remove the curtains of wilful, self inflicted blindness.
Regards
BobG
[/quote]
I've yet to meet any union basher who didn't want enhanced overtime rates , holidays with pay , a big fat redundancy cheque or have his back covered with health and safety .
No sir ..... that's definitely never happened .
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
Apologies for my late reply my laptop has suffered abuse and is being repaired,
I mean of course Tyke that the general public do not get a say in HOL appointments, where's the democracy? where do the people have their say. The very fact that they are required to be 'lords' perpetuates a theme of privilege and they are appointed or nearer to the mark stacked by the government of the day. Look what is happening to Bercow, had the temerity to stand up for democracy and they verbal him for political retribution. The public cannot appt nor sack and some may take their position seriously but I think there is a goodly few allowance collecting.
''Equality bill: churches and campaigners demand clarity on religion's exemption
European commission puts pressure on ministers to toughen law on discrimination by churches''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/25/equlity-bill-churches-exemption
''Report: C of E's right to 26 seats in Lords should be repealed
Parliamentarians criticise unique speaking rights of bishops in upper house''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/24/report-c-of-es-right-to-26-seats-in-lords-should-be-repealed#maincontent
-
Tyke
So you DON'T accept that there was enormous ambiguity over what Leave was going to mean?
Tell me. Is Norway in the EU?
-
The house of lords full of religious cranks and unelected swill.
Not quite true Sydney and they are accountable and often hold the government to account , most of it is played out on tv and not behind closed doors in Brussels conference facilities with lobbyists blowing in their lug holes .
https://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/house-of-lords-faqs/lords-once-mps/
Apologies for my late reply my laptop has suffered abuse and is being repaired,
I mean of course Tyke that the general public do not get a say in HOL appointments, where's the democracy? where do the people have their say. The very fact that they are required to be 'lords' perpetuates a theme of privilege and they are appointed or nearer to the mark stacked by the government of the day. Look what is happening to Bercow, had the temerity to stand up for democracy and they verbal him for political retribution. The public cannot appt nor sack and some may take their position seriously but I think there is a goodly few allowance collecting.
''Equality bill: churches and campaigners demand clarity on religion's exemption
European commission puts pressure on ministers to toughen law on discrimination by churches''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/25/equlity-bill-churches-exemption
''Report: C of E's right to 26 seats in Lords should be repealed
Parliamentarians criticise unique speaking rights of bishops in upper house''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/24/report-c-of-es-right-to-26-seats-in-lords-should-be-repealed#maincontent
As I've mentioned in an earlier thread to my new friend Glyn its not perfect but it does a very good job of scrutiny and holding governments to account .
They must be doing something right or else why would the Tories want to water down their affect or possibly get rid of them altogether .
It's not because some old chaps get to be a Lord and a bit of privilege that's for sure , they bloody love that shyte .
How could you open it up for elections Sydney ?
The public don't exactly turn out for GE's these days , besides that there's far more questionable characters who get elected as MP's as there are Lords so that doesn't work for me .
-
Tyke
So you DON'T accept that there was enormous ambiguity over what Leave was going to mean?
Tell me. Is Norway in the EU?
The referendum wasn't in Norway .
-
That's got nothing to do with the question I asked.
I'll try again. Is Norway in the EU? It's a simple enough question.
-
I have to give you credit tyke, you are doing a great job of defending the indefensible.
If you were to create a new form of government now, would you really go with one that has an unelected second chamber. Membership of which is confined to ancestors of people who owned the land in the middle ages and government appointed flunkies? Really?
In my view it should be a regionally elected second chamber, non-party independents, who are able to co-opt experts in any one particular field if they are discussing a specific piece of legislation.
-
That's got nothing to do with the question I asked.
I'll try again. Is Norway in the EU? It's a simple enough question.
In your own time Tyke. Doesn't take long to check, mind.
-
That's got nothing to do with the question I asked.
I'll try again. Is Norway in the EU? It's a simple enough question.
What on earth has Norway got to do with the UK leaving the EU ?
I'm fairly confident I didn't see on my ballot paper
Remain in the EU
Leave the EU * Norway style arrangement *
I thought the ballot paper was as clear as it's possible to be personally .
When I've left a job I don't think my ex employer is expecting me to leave just a little bit and turn in two days a week rather than five because I've errr .... left .
If Remain had won I wouldn't have expected some special arrangement that appeased Leave .
It was a straight question as far as I was concerned and saw it personally , In or Out there was no compromise and neither would I have expected any from Remain in victory .
-
I have to give you credit tyke, you are doing a great job of defending the indefensible.
If you were to create a new form of government now, would you really go with one that has an unelected second chamber. Membership of which is confined to ancestors of people who owned the land in the middle ages and government appointed flunkies? Really?
In my view it should be a regionally elected second chamber, non-party independents, who are able to co-opt experts in any one particular field if they are discussing a specific piece of legislation.
Anytime a tory government wants rid of a monkey on it's back then said monkey is doing something right in my opinion .
Give the monkey a banana I say .
I don't always agree with their decisions , far from it .
Bercow drove me insane but I grudgingly admired the bloke to a certain extent , he was given that kind of power and so you have to respect the decisions he made whether I liked them or not .
Just because decisions are made that we don't like doesn't mean we have to pour petrol and light a match to them .
It's the same with the beeb , they seem to pyss everyone off on both sides of the political divide .
What does that tell us ?
It tells us they are doing a good job of independent journalism which is what they are there to do .
-
Why so twitchy? I just asked you a simple question. I KNOW we didn't have different Leave options on the ballot paper. And that's kind of the point.
I assume you agree that Norway isn't in the EU?
So, if we now had an agreement with the EU like Norway has, we would have left the EU?
Agreed? Well of course you do, because you're very intelligent and only an idiot would disagree.
In fact, actually some of the most passionate Leavers were telling us we WOULD have a Norway type deal after we left. Farage and Hannan for example.
It is simply not credible to think that their campaigning didn't influence some waverers to vote for Leave.
And yet, here we are now, 4 years later, in a totally different place. Everyone from Farage to May to Johnson told us throughout 2019 that a Norway deal was absolutely NOT what the people voted for.
Here's a thing. How do reckon they KNOW that? What evidence do you think they have?
Could it be...here's a thought...could it be that folk like you who voted Leave, were actually voting to give the decision on what "Leave" meant to a small number of right wing politicians?
What an odd thing for a left-wing person to do. And even odder that that same person would then wade into a debate arguing with folk who point these things out to him.
And here's another thing.
If the ballot paper was so unambiguous, how come the same people who told us a Leave vote was a vote for a Norway option BEFORE the referendum, then told us that folk hadn't voted for a Norway deal AFTER the referendum?
I guess it obviously want unambiguous to everyone, eh?
-
The Tory Govt wants rid of the EU. What do you reckon that means?
-
Why so twitchy? I just asked you a simple question. I KNOW we didn't have different Leave options on the ballot paper. And that's kind of the point.
I assume you agree that Norway isn't in the EU?
So, if we now had an agreement with the EU like Norway has, we would have left the EU?
Agreed? Well of course you do, because you're very intelligent and only an idiot would disagree.
In fact, actually some of the most passionate Leavers were telling us we WOULD have a Norway type deal after we left. Farage and Hannan for example.
It is simply not credible to think that their campaigning didn't influence some waverers to vote for Leave.
And yet, here we are now, 4 years later, in a totally different place. Everyone from Farage to May to Johnson told us throughout 2019 that a Norway deal was absolutely NOT what the people voted for.
Here's a thing. How do reckon they KNOW that? What evidence do you think they have?
Could it be...here's a thought...could it be that folk like you who voted Leave, were actually voting to give the decision on what "Leave" meant to a small number of right wing politicians?
What an odd thing for a left-wing person to do. And even odder that that same person would then wade into a debate chucking insults at folk who point these things out to him.
Billy
I voted as I saw it and what I've believed in since I started taking an interest in politics , it really is that simple with me .
I was a Leaver before before 90% of today's lot were out of nappies .
I'm not that guy who does the second guessing thing about the motives of Tory's or Farage , they didn't influence me .
I can only communicate to you as I personally see things whether that be life experience , publications I've read and I've read greatly on the EU from both sides of the divide and absolutely nothing has ever convinced me personally that membership and the way it's evolved from a 6 nation trading bloc is anything other than detrimental to the working class and it's a neoliberal club who throw us some crumbs around to take the heat off themselves .
There's nothing in that club that we as a great nation can't do better .
I don't subscribe to the view that the world's moved on because if that was the case Remain would have won comfortably and we wouldn't be having this debate .
Geographically it works for some , fair enough but clearly not in Wales , the midlands or the north .
It doesn't work because those areas have different things going on and as a consequence view things far more differently .
The reponse is to call them racist , thickos , inward looking and any other put me down that you can think of .
How do you think that plays out ?
Do you think the Remainers would have had that thrown at them had they won ?
Ever since that result came in every dirty trick you can think of has been played by the Remainers to get this thing stopped or so watered down that we may as well have stayed in .
I've never known anything like it in my life .
That result had to honoured in my opinion as it was presented on the ballot paper , nothing more and nothing less or we may as well never vote again in our lives for what it would be worth going forward .
Norway this , Canada that wtf , leave the EU totally and we run from there .
That's what the ballot paper said , like it said in 1975 .
-
Tyke.
You say you don't care what type of Leave we have, as long as we Leave?
So. Would you have been happy with a Norway type deal?
Just a yes or no. No need for a thesis.
-
Funny how some folk either cannot or will not answer simple questions.... I really cannot think of any reason why that should be.
BobG
-
There is another, unsettling thing that comes out of your last post Tyke.
There's a touch of egomania. It's all about you and your opinions and views.
Do you consider it possible that other people were...let's say, persuaded into voting Leave when Farage said that we'd end up in an EEA/Norway type position after the vote? When Hannan said "No one, absolutely no-one is suggesting we leave the Single Market"?
Do you think that it undermines your argument that the vote was sacrosanct, when those people deliberately and systematically set out to deceive voters?
-
Tyke.
You say you don't care what type of Leave we have, as long as we Leave?
So. Would you have been happy with a Norway type deal?
Just a yes or no. No need for a thesis.
23k EU laws in force which is 21% of all EU laws .
70% of EU Directives .
17% of EU regulations
Acceptance of the four freedoms .
Annual bill to the EU €1.3bn
No seat at the table .
NO .
-
Ok. Now we are getting somewhere.
See. Norway isn't in the EU. So we could have a deal like Norway and still have left the EU.
But that wouldn't have been acceptable to you.
And yet. That ballot paper. You was it was crystal clear and unambiguous, what it meant.
Do you understand why I'm having trouble joining the dots here?
-
There is another, unsettling thing that comes out of your last post Tyke.
There's a touch of egomania. It's all about you and your opinions and views.
Do you consider it possible that other people were...let's say, persuaded into voting Leave when Farage said that we'd end up in an EEA/Norway type position after the vote? When Hannan said "No one, absolutely no-one is suggesting we leave the Single Market"?
Do you think that it undermines your argument that the vote was sacrosanct, when those people deliberately and systematically set out to deceive voters?
Billy
I'm a Barnsley lad born and bred we don't do egos and if we did they are knocked out of you pretty sharpish at least they were from my background .
I'm not a mind reader mate people vote as they vote .
See your going down this route again , people were misled because you got the result you didn't receive , were people misled in 1975 ?
From what I have read myself and documentaries I've watched the people of this country were misled right back from 1971 so if many were then we are all evened up then in my opinion .
Both you and I know politics is a dirty game Billy so let's bin the boy scouts shall we .
Dress it up how you want the electorate are never wrong , the result is the result and in the 2016 referendum the winner took all as far as I could see .
The same has it would be if Remain had won .
-
Ok. Now we are getting somewhere.
See. Norway isn't in the EU. So we could have a deal like Norway and still have left the EU.
But that wouldn't have been acceptable to you.
And yet. That ballot paper. You was it was crystal clear and unambiguous, what it meant.
Do you understand why I'm having trouble joining the dots here?
They aren't in the EU Billy but they may as well be , more fool them in my opinion .
That wouldn't be acceptable to me because the EU are massively impacting on Norway and the Norwegians pay them for the privilege .
That ain't leaving the EU and becoming independent .
-
I don't recall the word "independent" being on the ballot paper?
It said Remain or Leave.
You said that was crystal clear.
Now you are saying that if we'd ended up in the situation of a country that has never been in the EU, we wouldn't have left.
I'm sure it's clear to you, but I'm really struggling to follow the logic here.
-
I don't recall the word "independent" being on the ballot paper?
It said Remain or Leave.
You said that was crystal clear.
Now you are saying that if we'd ended up in the situation of a country that has never been in the EU, we wouldn't have left.
I'm sure it's clear to you, but I'm really struggling to follow the logic here.
No you asked me a hypothetical question about a Norway style agreement and I provided an answer as to what my view was on that arrangement , as far as I'm aware no such narrative exists and is probably unlikely to do so going forward with future EU negotiations which makes it hypothetical .
What part of LEAVE the EU doesn't convert to independence free of the EU in it's entirety ?
As in what part of REMAIN doesn't mean full alignment with the EU ?
You know we can play this game till the cows come home so as to fuel your view that you are right and everyone who doesn't share your view is wrong .
As for myself it really is pretty straightforward , Leave won and so they are right because democracy dictates that they are both judge and jury , the same as it did in 1975 and every referendum or GE ever held in this country and the way I would have seen it if Remain had won .
It really is that simple .
I'm from left wing stock Billy , is it an electable flavour as far as the country is concerned , not in a million years .
So that makes us wrong and the electorate right , I have to compromise to keep the Tories out and we work with what we have or we die .
I tend to sleep rather better with a Labour government in power despite them not exactly filling me with joy most of the time but it's still preferable to those feckers .
That's how I see it , not saying I'm right but I'm comfortable in my own skin with it .
We only have one vote each and who is right or wrong is decided by others .
On the referendum in 2016 I'm right and you are wrong because more people ticked my box than they did yours .
It's as simple as that .
-
But it WASN'T hypothetical in 2016 was it? It was relentlessly rammed down our throats as the Brexit of choice.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0xGt3QmRSZY&ved=2ahUKEwi6zM7b__nnAhUXQkEAHRRlAxUQwqsBMAB6BAgGEAQ&usg=AOvVaw0v2iTLsDSrd_kHuzccm72b
And then immediately after the vote, a Norway deal was called, by the very same people, a betrayal of the Will of the People.
THAT is why I was in favour of a confirmatory referendum. To clarify whether the UK people actually did want the Brexit finally on offer. Forgive me if I get arsey being lectured to by the likes of you about not having respect for people, when you are on the side of far right spivs who deliberately and knowingly lied to people during the referendum campaign.
You see my point?
-
I suppose it keeps getting back to the fundamental questions for those voting to stay have never ever had an answer to .....................
What are the advantages of leaving the richest trading bloc in the world, who gets those advantages if any?
This is really easy stuff for those determined to leave or it should be and yet here we are absolutely none the wiser, and further the outcomes are dependent on the whim of an unstable person of short attention span that has total contempt mainly I assume for those that voted for him because he would see them as another bunch of lesser intelligent beings stupid enough to swallow his spaff.
Please try to keep ones answers short and to the facts :)
-
I don't recall the word "independent" being on the ballot paper?
It said Remain or Leave.
You said that was crystal clear.
Now you are saying that if we'd ended up in the situation of a country that has never been in the EU, we wouldn't have left.
I'm sure it's clear to you, but I'm really struggling to follow the logic here.
No you asked me a hypothetical question about a Norway style agreement and I provided an answer as to what my view was on that arrangement , as far as I'm aware no such narrative exists and is probably unlikely to do so going forward with future EU negotiations which makes it hypothetical .
What part of LEAVE the EU doesn't convert to independence free of the EU in it's entirety ?
As in what part of REMAIN doesn't mean full alignment with the EU ?
You know we can play this game till the cows come home so as to fuel your view that you are right and everyone who doesn't share your view is wrong .
As for myself it really is pretty straightforward , Leave won and so they are right because democracy dictates that they are both judge and jury , the same as it did in 1975 and every referendum or GE ever held in this country and the way I would have seen it if Remain had won .
It really is that simple .
I'm from left wing stock Billy , is it an electable flavour as far as the country is concerned , not in a million years .
So that makes us wrong and the electorate right , I have to compromise to keep the Tories out and we work with what we have or we die .
I tend to sleep rather better with a Labour government in power despite them not exactly filling me with joy most of the time but it's still preferable to those feckers .
That's how I see it , not saying I'm right but I'm comfortable in my own skin with it .
We only have one vote each and who is right or wrong is decided by others .
On the referendum in 2016 I'm right and you are wrong because more people ticked my box than they did yours .
It's as simple as that .
Independence free of the EU in its entirety means no trade deal, or indeed any other deal of co-operation.
-
Tyke.
One last take. Do you accept that the Leave side lied systematically and knowingly throughout the 2016 campaign?
On the Norway deal?
On the £350m/week?
On Turkey being about to join the EU and 80m Turks getting the right to move in next door?
You DO accept those were all lies? Yes?
Only, when I've raised those points in here before, folk tend to say "Yeah. All politicians lie."
Which may or may not be true. But it raises an interesting point. If you vote for a politician in an election and it turns out they deliberately misled you, what's your course of redress? In a democracy, you exercise your right to vote against them next time round.
What you are saying is that in this case, we could be lied to by Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Banks, Hannan and plenty more on your side (odd bed fellows for a left-winger but it takes all sorts) and anyone pointing this out and asking what our redress is, is an enemy of democracy.
Is that about the top and bottom of it?
-
But it WASN'T hypothetical in 2016 was it? It was relentlessly rammed down our throats as the Brexit of choice.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0xGt3QmRSZY&ved=2ahUKEwi6zM7b__nnAhUXQkEAHRRlAxUQwqsBMAB6BAgGEAQ&usg=AOvVaw0v2iTLsDSrd_kHuzccm72b
And then immediately after the vote, a Norway deal was called, by the very same people, a betrayal of the Will of the People.
THAT is why I was in favour of a confirmatory referendum. To clarify whether the UK people actually did want the Brexit finally on offer. Forgive me if I get arsey being lectured to by the likes of you about not having respect for people, when you are on the side of far right spivs who deliberately and knowingly lied to people during the referendum campaign.
You see my point?
Billy my intention is never to lecture anybody and people are entitled to form their own views and vote accordingly , I'm very passionate about independent journalism and the facts presented to you and you make your own mind up , something there's not enough of but as an individual what can I do if The Mail is what it is ?
I think I've made my point clearly in that I voted the way I did and wasn't influenced by anybody .
The right and the old left have always been aligned on the EU , are you suggesting Dennis Skinner is the same stock as Jacob Rees Mogg ?
They are both massively anti EU , absolutely nothing else going on there as I'm sure you'd agree .
The electorate of this country are lied to on a consistent basis , didn't Blair promise an EU referendum too ? , twice I believe in 2004 and 2005 .
It's up to the electorate to seperate the facts from the bullshyte , it's never been easier with the tech today .
Neither you or me can control what people want to believe and to be honest neither of us have that right either .
As I say I'm passionate about independent journalism and let people decide on the facts .
Did you know it was The Yorkshire Post who had the phone call from the mums mother whose little lad was laid on the hospital floor in Leeds during the GE election campaign .
The editor made numerous calls and fact checked it before they broke with it .
Once it was out there the tory media through social media killed it stone dead through deception and lies .
Anyone with half a brain knows the Yorkshire Post is completely independent of political influence and doesn't print lies .
What can you do ?
People believe what they want to believe .
I'm on no nobody's side other than look at the facts as I see them and decide for myself .
Johnson is the biggest shytehouse to ever walk through number 10 , not because the Mirror and Guardian say he is but because the facts say he is a liar , lazy and a record of incompetence in government , it's like shooting fish in a barrel to come to that conclusion if you look at his career and research it .
Some of the young lads at work on £9 an hour think the sun shines out of his @ss .
Waste of time me saying anything , minds are made up , end of .
No I don't have an answer other than support independent journalism .
It's as good as I can do .
-
I can agree with you on nearly all of that last post Tyke. Except you have more faith than me in "independent" media. The problem is that there are powerful state actors out there doing their damnedest to f**k up our democratic processes by chucking smoke and mirrors into every discussion. I'm very despondent about the future of objective truth in political debate. When anyone can find (apparently) authoritative shit to support their existing opinions, we are on a very slippery slope.
My take is that you have to look at a source's track record. See if they have a history of being proved right or wrong. That's why I flew off the handle when you said you had no faith in economists' predictions. Because there ARE some out there who have been right time and again. And they are all saying Brexit, especially with no deal, will be a massive hit to our economy.
I'm bemused by your confidence that it will all be economically fine. I don't see what you base that on.
-
I don't recall the word "independent" being on the ballot paper?
It said Remain or Leave.
You said that was crystal clear.
Now you are saying that if we'd ended up in the situation of a country that has never been in the EU, we wouldn't have left.
I'm sure it's clear to you, but I'm really struggling to follow the logic here.
No you asked me a hypothetical question about a Norway style agreement and I provided an answer as to what my view was on that arrangement , as far as I'm aware no such narrative exists and is probably unlikely to do so going forward with future EU negotiations which makes it hypothetical .
What part of LEAVE the EU doesn't convert to independence free of the EU in it's entirety ?
As in what part of REMAIN doesn't mean full alignment with the EU ?
You know we can play this game till the cows come home so as to fuel your view that you are right and everyone who doesn't share your view is wrong .
As for myself it really is pretty straightforward , Leave won and so they are right because democracy dictates that they are both judge and jury , the same as it did in 1975 and every referendum or GE ever held in this country and the way I would have seen it if Remain had won .
It really is that simple .
I'm from left wing stock Billy , is it an electable flavour as far as the country is concerned , not in a million years .
So that makes us wrong and the electorate right , I have to compromise to keep the Tories out and we work with what we have or we die .
I tend to sleep rather better with a Labour government in power despite them not exactly filling me with joy most of the time but it's still preferable to those feckers .
That's how I see it , not saying I'm right but I'm comfortable in my own skin with it .
We only have one vote each and who is right or wrong is decided by others .
On the referendum in 2016 I'm right and you are wrong because more people ticked my box than they did yours .
It's as simple as that .
Independence free of the EU in its entirety means no trade deal, or indeed any other deal of co-operation.
No not at all , it means negotiating a trade deal with a partner in the greater interest of both party's whilst retaining your rights to govern your country free from rules and regulations from that partner .
It's as simple as that .
From what I've researched that's how this thing began in the early days .
But clearly as time rolled on it didn't quite work that way .
-
Tyke.
Because the EEC/EC/EU did away with more and more barriers to trade. Which was its purpose. And in getting rid of those barriers, the corollary was that we had to have more common standards.
That's not an evil scheme to trap us all. It's made the continent richer, more integrated and safer than it has ever been.
-
A thought on ages and the referendum. The "youth", that would likely have voted to remain in the EEC given the result in 75 would have been the "elders" that voted to leave this time round. With age comes wisdom, dont count on today's youth keeping the same opinions
-
A bit of a round up of what happened ........
We had a vote where most didnt know what they wanted run by a government that didnt explain what was on offer easily subverted by some that did.
We are now at a point where those that voted to leave cant tell us coherently what they wanted or the benefits of what is on offer or what theyll get and a government that doesnt appear to know any of the above. :)
-
A thought on ages and the referendum. The "youth", that would likely have voted to remain in the EEC given the result in 75 would have been the "elders" that voted to leave this time round. With age comes wisdom, dont count on today's youth keeping the same opinions
That would be a really good point.
Except.
In the 1975 referendum, the section of the population voting most heavily to Leave was those aged 18-29, and the section voting most heavily to Remain were those aged over 65.
The most Euro-supporting group was those who had lived through both World Wars. The most Eurosceptic was the Baby Boomers. There appears to be something about that generation. Eurosceptic without really understanding why or having a reason to be. Rebels Without A Cause...
-
Fair point Billy, it was just a thought
-
Surprised me when I looked Ldr.
In fairness, 58% of 18-29s voted Stay in 75 and only 35% of 65+ voted Remain in 2016. So there was a big swing. But then again, there was a swing of about 20% from Stay to Leave between the two votes in the entire population, so that group onkybswung by about the same as the entire population. The really interesting thing is how pro-European old people were in 1975. I'm sure the memory of what happened when Europe (including Britain) was divided in the first half of the 20th century must have had an effect.
-
Maybe since then the general opinion now is that EU membership is an expensive protection racket.
-
Great timing BB.
https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1234442894951559170
-
A thought on ages and the referendum. The "youth", that would likely have voted to remain in the EEC given the result in 75 would have been the "elders" that voted to leave this time round. With age comes wisdom, dont count on today's youth keeping the same opinions
Wisdom or ignorance?
-
Tyke.
Because the EEC/EC/EU did away with more and more barriers to trade. Which was its purpose. And in getting rid of those barriers, the corollary was that we had to have more common standards.
That's not an evil scheme to trap us all. It's made the continent richer, more integrated and safer than it has ever been.
Billy
The EU is not impervious to a global downturn .
The EU still haven't recovered from the 2008 crash and has shot it's bolt with monetary stimulus which haven't worked .
They have very few weapons left .
Since 2008 the Chinese economy is 140% bigger
The US is 40% .
The EU flatlined .
They've also fall behind in tech and are beholden to the US and far east for tech and business infrastructure .
They will of course know all of this you'd imagine , the big EU players will be under huge pressure to make a good trade deal with ourselves in my opinion .
-
Tyke
You're setting up straw men constantly.
I have no axe to grind for the EU's performance since the GFC. If you want to have some fun, go back through the archives here and see what I was saying on the subject a decade ago.
The Eurozone made some fundamental and very serious economic mistakes in their economic policy. And yes, as a result, they are a lot less well off than they should be.
But that is irrelevant to this discussion. They are still some of the richest and most productive people on the planet. There's half a billion of them. Right on our doorstep. Gravity trade theory (which is one of THE best established of economic principles says that trade is ALWAYS easier with partners who are closer. We have just decided to erect barriers to that market.
And I assume you saw the figures yesterday? That decision is going to drop our GDP by 4-8%. £90-180bn per year. Lost.
And the best result of a trade deal with the USA will be a boost of 0.22% to GDP. £4bn per year.
Don't try and spin Brexit as some economic opportunity. It's a f**king disaster. The only uncertainty is whether it will be a really REALLY big f**king disaster or just a really big one.
I know you don't believe that, but, frankly, your opinions on that are not really worth much because they aren't based on analysis. They are based on what you want to be true. I take mine from the analyses of economists who actually do this for a living and get this shit right.
-
How do I show applause?
BobG
-
Tyke
You're setting up straw men constantly.
I have no axe to grind for the EU's performance since the GFC. If you want to have some fun, go back through the archives here and see what I was saying on the subject a decade ago.
The Eurozone made some fundamental and very serious economic mistakes in their economic policy. And yes, as a result, they are a lot less well off than they should be.
But that is irrelevant to this discussion. They are still some of the richest and most productive people on the planet. There's half a billion of them. Right on our doorstep. Gravity trade theory (which is one of THE best established of economic principles says that trade is ALWAYS easier with partners who are closer. We have just decided to erect barriers to that market.
And I assume you saw the figures yesterday? That decision is going to drop our GDP by 4-8%. £90-180bn per year. Lost.
And the best result of a trade deal with the USA will be a boost of 0.22% to GDP. £4bn per year.
Don't try and spin Brexit as some economic opportunity. It's a f**king disaster. The only uncertainty is whether it will be a really REALLY big f**king disaster or just a really big one.
I know you don't believe that, but, frankly, your opinions on that are not really worth much because they aren't based on analysis. They are based on what you want to be true. I take mine from the analyses of economists who actually do this for a living and get this shit right.
The very same experts who have failed to predict 148 out of the last 150 recessions .
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/sep/02/economic-forecasting-flawed-science-data
-
If your serious about wanting to understand this Tyke, I'm more than happy to explain.
Predicting recessions is very, very hard. The overall performance level of an economy depends on many different issues. These interact in a non-linear style and make the prediction of the overall level of an economy very hard. On top of that, recessions are often provoked by sudden shocks, which by their very nature, impossible to predict. Two perfect examples are the recessions of 73-75 and 80-82, both of which were set off by decisions of middle Eastern countries to massively increase the price of oil overnight. Criticising an economist for not predicting that is stupid.
On the other hand, predicting the specific relative effect of doing or not doing something very specific is much easier. Predicting the effect of us deciding to make it harder to trade with the EU RELATIVE TO THE BASELINE CASE OF KEEPING EVERYTHING THE SAME is far less challenging. Because you are isolating that one effect.
So in this case, the economists are categorically not saying that our economy will be precisely THIS or THAT size in ten years time. That's impossible. They are saying our economy will be 4-8% smaller than it would have been if we'd not detected massive barriers to trading with half a billion of the richest people who have ever existed, right on our doorstep.
I know this is a lost cause because you are impervious to these arguments. But what I've just set out above is textbook economic theory. Idiots like that journalist are doing you and society s disservice by criticising economists for not doing what they cannot do, and not informing you about what they can and do get right on a consistent basis.
In this specific case, I tend to take my lead from Professor Simon Wren-Lewis from Oxford.
He set out the case to Gordon Brown that if we joined the Euro, we wouldn't have fiscal independence to do the things we'd need to do to counteract a major economic shock like the GFC. Correct.
He predicted that Austerity would lead to stagnant growth for several years, and wouldn't get the defecit down anywhere near as rapidly as was claimed by Osborne. Correct.
He predicted that the Leave vote would lead to an immediate drop in the Pound, a spike in inflation and several years of below par growth. That is exactly what happened.
He now predicts that leaving the EU on the terms we are likely to do will lead to a deep and permanent reduction in our competitiveness and wealth.
You say it won't.
Would you mind awfully if I totally ignore you and stick with him?
-
Or, maybe you're one of these mates of Michael Gove? You seem to have his disdain for experts who tell you things you don't want to hear. It's the antithesis of being adult. Ignore the evidence of experts with a track record of getting all the big things broadly right. Trust your gut instinct.
Is that what you'd do if you had cancer?
-
Tyke.
Actually, I've got the perfect analogy for you about economists predicting recessions and whether that means they are shit.
Seismologists cannot predict exactly when an earthquake will strike. There are too many micro features that can affect when the tectonic plates will slip. Just as there are too many interactions in an economy to predict when the economic plates slip and you get a recession.
What seismologists CAN do is to predict, broadly, what the effects will be of a specific type of earthquake. Just as economists can predict, broadly, what the effect will be of specific change of policy.
Seismologists can then advise structural engineers what loads buildings need to be designed for to survive earthquakes. I had the great honour to meet a brilliant Chilean seismologist 8 years ago. He had hammered on politicians doors and insisted they change building standards. That had been his life's work. Driven by knowing how vulnerable Chile was.
In 2010, Chile has hit by one of the biggest earthquakes of all time. Magnitude 8.8, right between the cities of Santiago and Concepción. Most buildings survived. Almost miraculously, only 500 people died.
Much of it down to him.
He couldn't predict WHEN the earthquake would hit. But he could advise on what the effects would be.
If you lived in Concepción, would you have followed his advice about how to build your house? Or would you have said, "f**k it, you can't tell when the earthquake will happen so I'm not listening to you. I reckon it'll be fine if we brace the walls with a bit of 4x2"?
-
Or another one.
Epidemiologists cannot predict exactly when the next pandemic will breakout.
Does that mean you ignore their advice about how best to mitigate the effects of one when it does happen.
We are living in an age where we depend on expert advice to understand complex issues more than ever.
You, Tyke, are simply dismissing expert opinion that doesn't suit what you want to believe.
What we need is evidence-led decision making. Not decision-led evidence making.
-
Yeah, let's just talk about how doomed we are and how healthy we were before the virus. Let's not try and make the best of the situation by showing a positive stance to deal with it and go forward. Let's just talk about a negative future.
-
BB
And there you go again.
It's not about giving in to doom and gloom. It's about going into situation with your eyes open, informed by expert opinion.
When you drive, do you shut your eyes and hope for the best?
-
BB
And there you go again.
It's not about giving in to doom and gloom. It's about going into situation with your eyes open, informed by expert opinion.
When you drive, do you shut your eyes and hope for the best?
I drive for a living, to be fair I reckon 50% of drivers do just that or drive with blinkers on 😂😂😂
-
BB
And there you go again.
It's not about giving in to doom and gloom. It's about going into situation with your eyes open, informed by expert opinion.
When you drive, do you shut your eyes and hope for the best?
But if going in with your eyes open proves to be detrimental because the 'experts' negative predictions were actually responsible for hindering recovery, maybe it's time to be positively blinkered.
-
Yeah. You keep saying that BB.
If an expert said that a plane's engine was likely to fail, you ignored him, got on the plane and it did fail, would you blame the engineer for being pessimistic?
Your bizarre insistence of blaming the massive slowdown we've had over the past 4 years on moodiness, when there are very simple and straightforward economic theory reasons for it says a lot. You don't want to listen to experts. That's fine. Your prerogative. Just don't expect your opinion to be taken seriously then.
-
BST, I never expect you to take my view seriously. You are, after all negatively blinkered.
-
Wind him up and let him go.
-
I'm f*ckin' sick of this, we've had the vote a couple of elections we should be in nirvana, can we have the good news yet? :)
-
Barnier says the difficulties posed by Brexit in January 2021 'underestimated'
Really?
Barnier says the media need to help people prepare for change.
Barny's always good for a laugh.
He says the UK will leave the customs union and the single market. This will have a lot of consequences. They need to be prepared for.
Cumjo have it covered.
He says next January will not be like January 2020. It will be very, very different, he says.
Who'd have thought.
He says he thinks the difficulties are still “underestimated”.
Never!
Customs formalities will be applied to all exports.
bugger.
Financial institutions will lose the benefits of passporting.
double bugger
And commercial certificates will no longer be recognised by the EU, he says.
triple ........
He says the partnership that is being negotiated will not avoid these areas of friction. He says the UK delegation accepted this in this round of talks.
-
A bit of a round up of what happened ........
We had a vote where most didnt know what they wanted run by a government that didnt explain what was on offer easily subverted by some that did.
We are now at a point where those that voted to leave cant tell us coherently what they wanted or the benefits of what is on offer or what theyll get and a government that doesnt appear to know any of the above. :)
I couldn't help but notice your post Sydney having had a couple of days away with work commitments .
Oh yes the leavers didn't know what they were voting for , some probably didn't as in every election or referendum that's taken place I'd imagine .
Of course the euro fanatics within the Labour Movement or your average Guardian reader if you like will tell you that they totally knew what they were voting for and with it tried to claim the intelligent ground .
The problem as I see it is quite the opposite , or maybe they simply stuck two fingers in their lug holes so they can carry on lifting Estonians out of poverty or maybe they simply thought leavers were too thick to spot their hypocrisy .
I think it's a fairly reasonable thing to suggest that those in the Labour Movement robustly oppose the Tory austerity programme which has caused needless suffering to millions of people in this country and will continue to do so for a good while yet .
You might then wonder why on earth they'd trumpet the EU who have a far more devastating programme of austerity they have inflicted on Greece , Italy , France , Netherlands , Spain , Ireland and Portugal .
I mean it's bad enough having to eat this austerity cake baked by your own government but to have it served by a bunch of unelected Euro bureaucrats in Brussels is quite another thing altogether .
What kind of a Labour Movement would stand behind this you have to ask yourself ? .
You'd have also thought Mr and Mrs Middle Class from Camden would have spotted their hypocrisy .
Maybe they didn't know .
:thumbsup:
-
Or, maybe you're one of these mates of Michael Gove? You seem to have his disdain for experts who tell you things you don't want to hear. It's the antithesis of being adult. Ignore the evidence of experts with a track record of getting all the big things broadly right. Trust your gut instinct.
Is that what you'd do if you had cancer?
You are aware Billy I take it that GDP doesn't include the value of goods and services produced at home .
-
Or, maybe you're one of these mates of Michael Gove? You seem to have his disdain for experts who tell you things you don't want to hear. It's the antithesis of being adult. Ignore the evidence of experts with a track record of getting all the big things broadly right. Trust your gut instinct.
Is that what you'd do if you had cancer?
You are aware Billy I take it that GDP doesn't include the value of goods and services produced at home .
Here we go. Here's the second phase of the argument.
Phase 1: Assert that you are right.
When that is knocked down, move to phase two.
Phase 2: Question the premise of your opponent's case.
Go on Tyke. I'll indulge you. What precisely do you mean by that? Do you mean goods produced in a domestic dwelling?
-
A bit of a round up of what happened ........
We had a vote where most didnt know what they wanted run by a government that didnt explain what was on offer easily subverted by some that did.
We are now at a point where those that voted to leave cant tell us coherently what they wanted or the benefits of what is on offer or what theyll get and a government that doesnt appear to know any of the above. :)
I couldn't help but notice your post Sydney having had a couple of days away with work commitments .
Oh yes the leavers didn't know what they were voting for , some probably didn't as in every election or referendum that's taken place I'd imagine .
Of course the euro fanatics within the Labour Movement or your average Guardian reader if you like will tell you that they totally knew what they were voting for and with it tried to claim the intelligent ground .
The problem as I see it is quite the opposite , or maybe they simply stuck two fingers in their lug holes so they can carry on lifting Estonians out of poverty or maybe they simply thought leavers were too thick to spot their hypocrisy .
I think it's a fairly reasonable thing to suggest that those in the Labour Movement robustly oppose the Tory austerity programme which has caused needless suffering to millions of people in this country and will continue to do so for a good while yet .
You might then wonder why on earth they'd trumpet the EU who have a far more devastating programme of austerity they have inflicted on Greece , Italy , France , Netherlands , Spain , Ireland and Portugal .
I mean it's bad enough having to eat this austerity cake baked by your own government but to have it served by a bunch of unelected Euro bureaucrats in Brussels is quite another thing altogether .
What kind of a Labour Movement would stand behind this you have to ask yourself ? .
You'd have also thought Mr and Mrs Middle Class from Camden would have spotted their hypocrisy .
Maybe they didn't know .
:thumbsup:
You voted to leave the EU because you were disgusted at the austerity they have caused in the Netherlands! There's a new one.
-
Who exactly is this EU that has imposed these policies on these countries?
-
A bit of a round up of what happened ........
We had a vote where most didnt know what they wanted run by a government that didnt explain what was on offer easily subverted by some that did.
We are now at a point where those that voted to leave cant tell us coherently what they wanted or the benefits of what is on offer or what theyll get and a government that doesnt appear to know any of the above. :)
I couldn't help but notice your post Sydney having had a couple of days away with work commitments .
Oh yes the leavers didn't know what they were voting for , some probably didn't as in every election or referendum that's taken place I'd imagine .
Of course the euro fanatics within the Labour Movement or your average Guardian reader if you like will tell you that they totally knew what they were voting for and with it tried to claim the intelligent ground .
The problem as I see it is quite the opposite , or maybe they simply stuck two fingers in their lug holes so they can carry on lifting Estonians out of poverty or maybe they simply thought leavers were too thick to spot their hypocrisy .
I think it's a fairly reasonable thing to suggest that those in the Labour Movement robustly oppose the Tory austerity programme which has caused needless suffering to millions of people in this country and will continue to do so for a good while yet .
You might then wonder why on earth they'd trumpet the EU who have a far more devastating programme of austerity they have inflicted on Greece , Italy , France , Netherlands , Spain , Ireland and Portugal .
I mean it's bad enough having to eat this austerity cake baked by your own government but to have it served by a bunch of unelected Euro bureaucrats in Brussels is quite another thing altogether .
What kind of a Labour Movement would stand behind this you have to ask yourself ? .
You'd have also thought Mr and Mrs Middle Class from Camden would have spotted their hypocrisy .
Maybe they didn't know .
:thumbsup:
To be honest Tyke I think very few people on either side including those in government knew what they were voting for nor the consequences of a pro-brexit outcome and we/they still don't.
I think remainers understood better the consequences of leaving and that some/many leavers if they did know were determined to give some one (themselves even) a bloody nose of which I understand.
Think of the Austerity imposed on Greece Italy France as the imposition of Fair Play rules and their economies will improve and that they will/may get their houses in order by putting and end to rampant corruption, unlike ours which went into reverse and for no good reason. Although Austerity on the continent was designed and imposed by the EU it was signed up to by the leaders of those countries and although in a difficult position those countries elected to accept and stay rather than cut and run because presumably they could see the long term benefit of being a member of the richest trading bloc in the world.
Labour has made many many mistakes but on balance if all the pros and cons were tabulated Labour-Tory-EU I think the average person from the north of England would see that in terms of well being and monetary terms that their lives and those of their neighbours would be better with a labour government and being a member of the EU.
My leanings are well to the left which many remind me and I wear proudly but I am a pragmatist, more so as I age and although my first preference would be some sort of socialist republic but I do understand and history plainly shows that this would turn out to be a corrupted mess just as globalism has proven to be.
''You'd have also thought Mr and Mrs Middle Class from Camden would have spotted their hypocrisy'' I think most of these now vote to pull up the ladder.
-
Or, maybe you're one of these mates of Michael Gove? You seem to have his disdain for experts who tell you things you don't want to hear. It's the antithesis of being adult. Ignore the evidence of experts with a track record of getting all the big things broadly right. Trust your gut instinct.
Is that what you'd do if you had cancer?
You are aware Billy I take it that GDP doesn't include the value of goods and services produced at home .
Here we go. Here's the second phase of the argument.
Phase 1: Assert that you are right.
When that is knocked down, move to phase two.
Phase 2: Question the premise of your opponent's case.
Go on Tyke. I'll indulge you. What precisely do you mean by that? Do you mean goods produced in a domestic dwelling?
He only counts goods produced in batches of 144, of course.
-
A bit of a round up of what happened ........
We had a vote where most didnt know what they wanted run by a government that didnt explain what was on offer easily subverted by some that did.
We are now at a point where those that voted to leave cant tell us coherently what they wanted or the benefits of what is on offer or what theyll get and a government that doesnt appear to know any of the above. :)
I couldn't help but notice your post Sydney having had a couple of days away with work commitments .
Oh yes the leavers didn't know what they were voting for , some probably didn't as in every election or referendum that's taken place I'd imagine .
Of course the euro fanatics within the Labour Movement or your average Guardian reader if you like will tell you that they totally knew what they were voting for and with it tried to claim the intelligent ground .
The problem as I see it is quite the opposite , or maybe they simply stuck two fingers in their lug holes so they can carry on lifting Estonians out of poverty or maybe they simply thought leavers were too thick to spot their hypocrisy .
I think it's a fairly reasonable thing to suggest that those in the Labour Movement robustly oppose the Tory austerity programme which has caused needless suffering to millions of people in this country and will continue to do so for a good while yet .
You might then wonder why on earth they'd trumpet the EU who have a far more devastating programme of austerity they have inflicted on Greece , Italy , France , Netherlands , Spain , Ireland and Portugal .
I mean it's bad enough having to eat this austerity cake baked by your own government but to have it served by a bunch of unelected Euro bureaucrats in Brussels is quite another thing altogether .
What kind of a Labour Movement would stand behind this you have to ask yourself ? .
You'd have also thought Mr and Mrs Middle Class from Camden would have spotted their hypocrisy .
Maybe they didn't know .
:thumbsup:
To be honest Tyke I think very few people on either side including those in government knew what they were voting for nor the consequences of a pro-brexit outcome and we/they still don't.
I think remainers understood better the consequences of leaving and that some/many leavers if they did know were determined to give some one (themselves even) a bloody nose of which I understand.
Think of the Austerity imposed on Greece Italy France as the imposition of Fair Play rules and their economies will improve and that they will/may get their houses in order by putting and end to rampant corruption, unlike ours which went into reverse and for no good reason. Although Austerity on the continent was designed and imposed by the EU it was signed up to by the leaders of those countries and although in a difficult position those countries elected to accept and stay rather than cut and run because presumably they could see the long term benefit of being a member of the richest trading bloc in the world.
Labour has made many many mistakes but on balance if all the pros and cons were tabulated Labour-Tory-EU I think the average person from the north of England would see that in terms of well being and monetary terms that their lives and those of their neighbours would be better with a labour government and being a member of the EU.
My leanings are well to the left which many remind me and I wear proudly but I am a pragmatist, more so as I age and although my first preference would be some sort of socialist republic but I do understand and history plainly shows that this would turn out to be a corrupted mess just as globalism has proven to be.
''You'd have also thought Mr and Mrs Middle Class from Camden would have spotted their hypocrisy'' I think most of these now vote to pull up the ladder.
Austerity is austerity Sydney which you well know affects those in society least able to absorb it's crippling affects the most .
The rejection by the EU to perhaps introduce a Keynesian policy tells us rather more about the EU than the EU maniacs in the Labour Party would like to admit .
This is a conversation that's never taken place as far as I can see , a huge proportion of the Labour Party support austerity dished out by the EU but apparently robustly oppose the Tory governments strategy .
Every benefit cut , police reduction , social service cut , NHS underfunded creating mass hysteria quite rightly and the same dished out by the EU and not so much as a conversation .
The other one that gets me is Blair sending millions and millions of pounds of UK taxpayers money to eastern europe to get them started in this EU charade and yet he practically built every new School , Hospital
and what have using PFI which we continue to pay today and beyond .
I mean you couldn't make this shyte up .
-
Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?
-
''This is a conversation that's never taken place as far as I can see , a huge proportion of the Labour Party support austerity dished out by the EU but apparently robustly oppose the Tory governments strategy''
Just on this point Tyke the UK government had a choice because there was a reasonable credible framework in place to collect taxes control corruption and pay down debt even if it grossly advantaged those at the top and against all advice and economic history it chose an ideological path to further wage war against the masses.
Other countries within the EU that signed up to Austerity had Hobson's choice especially Greece where the corruption of tax collection was rampant, remember the aerial photo's of swimming pools owners matched up against those paying zero tax? Greece either complied or exited I presume, I'm not sure what the choices were if any, but I am sure that if they had chosen to exit the EU they would be in a far worse place and civil war would not have been a total shock.
-
Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?
I haven't done any homework on this but it's a good point bst
-
This is an objective look at Greece and Austerity
https://www.choices.edu/teaching-news-lesson/greece-eu-navigating-debt-austerity/
-
Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?
In your own time Tyke.
-
This is an objective look at Greece and Austerity
https://www.choices.edu/teaching-news-lesson/greece-eu-navigating-debt-austerity/
This link from the above on Austerity is pretty good
The fallacy of Composition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi8Unx9SL_I&spfreload=10
-
The UK is the only European country without a primarily nationalised railway network. Although to be acurate our railways are mostly state run. They are just run by the national state railways of other countries.
It's UK government policy since Thatcher that stop the UK having a nationalised railway network, not EU rules.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-railways-eu-rules-nationalise-single-market-restrictions-labour-a8968691.html
Point of information- railway privatisation happened in 1993 when John Major was PM.
Mrs Thatcher was rather sceptical about the benefits of railway privatisation (just as she was about the Maastricht treaty). On those two issues at least we can probably say history has proved her right.
-
''This is a conversation that's never taken place as far as I can see , a huge proportion of the Labour Party support austerity dished out by the EU but apparently robustly oppose the Tory governments strategy''
Just on this point Tyke the UK government had a choice because there was a reasonable credible framework in place to collect taxes control corruption and pay down debt even if it grossly advantaged those at the top and against all advice and economic history it chose an ideological path to further wage war against the masses.
Other countries within the EU that signed up to Austerity had Hobson's choice especially Greece where the corruption of tax collection was rampant, remember the aerial photo's of swimming pools owners matched up against those paying zero tax? Greece either complied or exited I presume, I'm not sure what the choices were if any, but I am sure that if they had chosen to exit the EU they would be in a far worse place and civil war would not have been a total shock.
The EU's handling of the financial and sovereign debt crisis in Portugal , Ireland and Greece etc exposed all the classic characters of a neoliberal force .
The " Hobson's Choice " as you put it is an interesting choice of words Sydney , I'd say trapped personally and a consequence of a lack of democracy which endorsed the fact that the EU austerity inflicted on those citizens least able to manage it exposed the elephant in the room , they'd lost economic control of their nation states to Brussels .
The fact they had no where to go fundamentally endorses that narrative .
The very essence of a single European Market , monetary union and the Euro complete the neoliberal logic of market competition .
Once the EU financial markets were integrated individual nation states were left to compete for investment by large multi national corporations , a good example of this would be Amazon in Doncaster .
This then leads you exposed to cuts to labour cuts ( agency workers , ZHC ) , decreased corporate taxes and compromises on safety and environmental standards .
The only winner here is transnational capital , not the working man .
The completion from an economic force to a political one is the end game .
A transnational corporate elite setting the European agenda and policy making .
Market Forces ... Small Government = Neoliberalism .
Money ... Profit ... Austerity .
There's absolutely no regard what so ever for the social fabric of societies , the former Labour Heartlands are your reference .
This apparently is what the Labour Movement stood behind , MP's , Trade Unions Labour Members and fringe groups such as Momentum .
To put it another way if the EU were a former PM it would be Thatcher .
I'm at a loss to understand the Labour Party's remaining in the EU's argument .
-
I'm working my way through Greece at the moment and most of it appears to boil down to bad management by those in charge. Of course the poor paid for the largesse and are still paying.
Added: they had to accept a bailout coupled with Austerity or go back to the drachma which no one wanted, in the end with the new boys in charge they accepted the bail out loans but later the money lenders relented a bit and eased the payments regime.
it's been plenty tough there with the poorest taking the brunt of course. What it shows me is you can never stand back and say whats the point because if you do you'll get turned over and screwed.
-
I'm working my way through Greece at the moment and most of it appears to boil down to bad management by those in charge. Of course the poor paid for the largesse and are still paying.
Added: they had to accept a bailout coupled with Austerity or go back to the drachma which no one wanted, in the end with the new boys in charge they accepted the bail out loans but later the money lenders relented a bit and eased the payments regime.
it's been plenty tough there with the poorest taking the brunt of course. What it shows me is you can never stand back and say whats the point because if you do you'll get turned over and screwed.
One of the great Labour Party tragedies for me personally is that nobody from the leave camp within the party had the strength of character and political charisma to expose the EU and make the leave argument .
Now I take the point this is hypothetical but such a man as Farage within the Labour Movement wouldn't have been a bad shout .
Let's park his Thatcherite banker background and focus on his work exposing and holding to account the EU .
Whatever you think of him personally or his motives doesn't take away the fact he called the EU out for what they were and on that issue he was absolutely on the money .
No wonder the Tories were shyte scared of him .
Shame the Labour Party haven't the same personalities or policy and have abandoned the working class on the subject of the EU .
It was a severe price to pay last December and over 40 years in the making .
-
Sorry Tyke this is where you and I diverge Farage is all about Farage. if he'd had spent the same energy calling out the tories the UK would be in a better place, the tories are doing and have done far more damage to Britain than the EU.
-
Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?
In your own time Tyke.
When you're ready.
-
So Tyke, you wanted Labour to be led by the sort of person who stood proudly in front of an anti-immigrant poster that deliberately echoed Nazi propaganda from the 1930s?
And you claim to be a socialist?
-
Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?
In your own time Tyke.
When you're ready.
I'm amazed I have to lead you to the water Billy , whether the link offers you the opportunity to drink is of course another matter .
http://www.dailyglobe.co.uk/comment/austerity-has-not-been-a-tory-choice-but-an-eu-one/
-
So Tyke, you wanted Labour to be led by the sort of person who stood proudly in front of an anti-immigrant poster that deliberately echoed Nazi propaganda from the 1930s?
And you claim to be a socialist?
Oh dear Billy , I thought you had rather more oil in your lamp than bring some straw to the table .
Read my post regarding Farage again and highlight where I have said what you accuse me of .
In your own time of course .
-
You said you wanted a Labour Farage. The only thing you criticised about him was his banking background (which is wrong - his background was in the commodities markets).
Personally, I find his continued lying, his racism and his borderline treason to me more concerning. But you never mentioned any of those. I wouldn't want a person like Farage within a million miles of any party I supported.
-
Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?
In your own time Tyke.
When you're ready.
I'm amazed I have to lead you to the water Billy , whether the link offers you the opportunity to drink is of course another matter .
http://www.dailyglobe.co.uk/comment/austerity-has-not-been-a-tory-choice-but-an-eu-one/
Right.
And what coercive action has the EU ever taken against any country for not sticking to the Excessive Deficit Procedure since the Global Financial Crash?
-
You said you wanted a Labour Farage. The only thing you criticised about him was his banking background (which is wrong - his background was in the commodities markets).
Personally, I find his continued lying, his racism and his borderline treason to me more concerning. But you never mentioned any of those. I wouldn't want a person like Farage within a million miles of any party I supported.
What I said was that the leave argument in the Labour Movement needed to be made by a strong and charismatic character such as Farage who has consistently called out the EU and attempted to make them accountable .
Absolutely nothing more than that , I'm surprised I'm having to explain it to you .
-
Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?
In your own time Tyke.
When you're ready.
I'm amazed I have to lead you to the water Billy , whether the link offers you the opportunity to drink is of course another matter .
http://www.dailyglobe.co.uk/comment/austerity-has-not-been-a-tory-choice-but-an-eu-one/
Right.
And what coercive action has the EU ever taken against any country for not sticking to the Excessive Deficit Procedure since the Global Financial Crash?
The action for not bringing down the debt to what the EU deem to be acceptable is yet more austerity until it's done .
If it takes 20 years then it seems to me you'll see 20 years of austerity , I'd imagine the severity of austerity could well be increased to speed up the process .
I'd suggest one year of austerity is one year too many personally given there are other models that attempt to tackle national debt .
-
And I'll say again. What sanction is the EU actually applying? Given that, when countries have not brought down their deficit as planned, they haven't been fined.
-
And I'll say again. What sanction is the EU actually applying? Given that, when countries have not brought down their deficit as planned, they haven't been fined.
Billy has your Euro pant wetting really come to this as a man of the Labour Movement .
I say Labour Movement but I'm beginning to wonder to tell the truth .
So because there are no fines that implies that the EU haven't the control over these nation states I say they have ?
That's the gist of what I'm reading from yourself , tell me if I'm wrong of course .
How is it possible that you robustly oppose Tory austerity and yet stand behind the EU who drive this policy and give it the " Nothing To See Here " opinion ? .
How absolutely hypocritical do you want to look Billy ? .
We were warned by more political brains in the 70's than you will ever see today about the consequences of EU membership and it's impact on working people in this country and by god they were right .
The real tragedy is people such as yourself were taken in by the Brussels project and you sold your heart and soul to it within the Labour Movement .
Something you'll do very well to come back from around these heartlands and without these heartlands you have nothing .
The truth is its cost you your much admired EU membership and about as far away from government as it's possible to be in a two party fight .
And yet you still defend the EU on a number of levels , austerity seems to be the latest .
Yes I will hold you to account , it's not personal but it is what it is as you seem to want to hold leavers to account which is fair enough .
You are wrong Billy , the referendum and the last GE says you are .
-
Further to my look at Greece, Tyke it appears overall that they borrowed swags of money while cheap with no thought as to how to pay it back. When the GFC hit like almost every other country it was in a poor position to do anything about it.
As I stated before there were few options if they wanted a bailout the main one being to go back to the drachma which no one in Greece wanted.
The original bailout loan terms were harsh and eased slightly when a new Greek government took the reins with negotiations from the lenders. In return for the bailout these pledges were agreed to by the gov't, which had they been in place all along they wouldn't have been in so much trouble.
Key points: Greece economic pledges to Europe
Tax policies
Broaden the definition of tax fraud and evasion, making it harder to avoid taxes
Improve the collection of VAT, fighting evasion using technology
Create "a new culture of tax compliance" to make sure that all sections of society - particularly the wealthy - "contribute fairly to the financing of public policies"
Work with European and international partners to establish a database that helps tax authorities assess the veracity of previous income tax returns
Andrew Walker: Improving tax collection has been a persistent theme in the discussions between Greece and its bailout lenders. It's an area where it's easy to see a shared view between the two sides. The idea of getting the well-off to contribute to the financing of public policies is right in line with Syriza's wider agenda. Anything that brings in more revenue and so helps stabilise the government finances is likely to be welcome to the lenders as well. Creating a new culture of tax compliance is a bit "motherhood and apple pie". Who could object? But it will take a long time to achieve.
Public spending
Work towards improving the efficiency of central and local government departments
Identify cost-saving measures through a thorough spending review of every ministry, reorganising non-salary and non-pension expenditures which account for "an astounding 56% of total public expenditure"
Use cross-checking to validate benefits to "help identify non-eligible beneficiaries"
Control health expenditure and improve medical services, while granting universal access to healthcare
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31599838
I think you could safely say that being part of the EU has helped Greece overall, the 'cure' has been harsh but better than being declared bankrupt I would have thought.
-
This thread is a great read on both sides,what is obvious is tyke asks a question and only gets half a answer would love bst and Sydney to answer his questions on the eu and austerity ect.
-
This thread is a great read on both sides,what is obvious is tyke asks a question and only gets half a answer would love bst and Sydney to answer his questions on the eu and austerity ect.
You could of course answer it yourself bp?
-
BP.
I'll willingly answer.
The root cause of the problems that Italy, Greece and others got into are complex, and tied to the flawed concept of the Euro.
Having a single currency means that you have a single interest rate for the entire zone. That is supposed to encourage all parts of that zone to synchronise their economic approaches.
But that never happened.
In the run up to the start of the Euro, and the way days if the Euro, Germany had a struggling economy. They had inflation and demand that were too low. That was balanced by inflation and demand being too high through southern Europe. In simple terms, Italy and Greece were the market for Germany.
And that is how it's supposed to work with a single currency. Peaks and troughs balance out. Germany saves (because people aren't spending much). Greece runs up debts (people are living beyond their means). Each of those would.m be a big problem on its own. But in a shared currency zone, they balance out.
The problem came with the GFC.
Then the debt markets got scared that Greece's debt wasn't sustainable.
And NOW the flaw in the Euro came out. The way you'd deal with debt if you have your own currency is to devalue imtge currency. That sets of inflation and it effectively reduces the value of your debt. Your creditors aren't happy but it's their fault for not doing their due dilligence.
But Greece couldn't do that, because they didn't control the value of the Euro.
In a common currency, what SHOUKD happen is that everyone is responsible for everyone's debt. They all cover it. So, in the UK, we in Doncaster don't pay our way. We consume more than we make. And we are subsidised by London.
That mechanism wasn't there in the Euro. So Greece had no way out.
The eventual solution wasnimposed by Germany NOT by the EU. It was for Northern European banks to lend Greece the money to cover their debts, but in the understanding that Greece would get its debt under control by MASSIVE austerity. And I mean massive. I know if public sector workers whose salaries were cut by a quarter in a year.
There WAS a balance to that which should have happened. Just as Greece had overspent in the 1990s and given Germany a market, so now Germany should have overspent and given Greece a market to help them out. Germany should have run a mild deficit and let money pour into the Greek economy. There should have been more Germans having expensive holidays in Zante. More investment in hi tech Greek start ups.
But that never happened, because Germany is obsessive about inflation.
THERE is the problem of European austerity. A flawed concept of the Euro, aligned to obsessive fear of inflation from the right wing Govt that is in power in Germany.
Both of those features have absolutely zero to do with OUR relationship with the EU. We are not in the Euro. Our economic policy is not directed by German Ordoliberal economics.
That enough to be going on with?
-
BP.
I'll willingly answer.
The root cause of the problems that Italy, Greece and others got into are complex, and tied to the flawed concept of the Euro.
Having a single currency means that you have a single interest rate for the entire zone. That is supposed to encourage all parts of that zone to synchronise their economic approaches.
But that never happened.
In the run up to the start of the Euro, and the way days if the Euro, Germany had a struggling economy. They had inflation and demand that were too low. That was balanced by inflation and demand being too high through southern Europe. In simple terms, Italy and Greece were the market for Germany.
And that is how it's supposed to work with a single currency. Peaks and troughs balance out. Germany saves (because people aren't spending much). Greece runs up debts (people are living beyond their means). Each of those would.m be a big problem on its own. But in a shared currency zone, they balance out.
The problem came with the GFC.
Then the debt markets got scared that Greece's debt wasn't sustainable.
And NOW the flaw in the Euro came out. The way you'd deal with debt if you have your own currency is to devalue imtge currency. That sets of inflation and it effectively reduces the value of your debt. Your creditors aren't happy but it's their fault for not doing their due dilligence.
But Greece couldn't do that, because they didn't control the value of the Euro.
In a common currency, what SHOUKD happen is that everyone is responsible for everyone's debt. They all cover it. So, in the UK, we in Doncaster don't pay our way. We consume more than we make. And we are subsidised by London.
That mechanism wasn't there in the Euro. So Greece had no way out.
The eventual solution wasnimposed by Germany NOT by the EU. It was for Northern European banks to lend Greece the money to cover their debts, but in the understanding that Greece would get its debt under control by MASSIVE austerity. And I mean massive. I know if public sector workers whose salaries were cut by a quarter in a year.
There WAS a balance to that which should have happened. Just as Greece had overspent in the 1990s and given Germany a market, so now Germany should have overspent and given Greece a market to help them out. Germany should have run a mild deficit and let money pour into the Greek economy. There should have been more Germans having expensive holidays in Zante. More investment in hi tech Greek start ups.
But that never happened, because Germany is obsessive about inflation.
THERE is the problem of European austerity. A flawed concept of the Euro, aligned to obsessive fear of inflation from the right wing Govt that is in power in Germany.
Both of those features have absolutely zero to do with OUR relationship with the EU. We are not in the Euro. Our economic policy is not directed by German Ordoliberal economics.
That enough to be going on with?
The EU have put the UK on Excessive Debt Procedure three times Billy .
In 2008 they gave us 6 months to reduce our debt at a rate of their choosing and have continued to monitor our progress and set us targets again of their choosing .
We don't have the Euro here .
-
And I'll say again Tyke. What have they done to enforce that.
Back in 2008, we said "Yes, whatever" and ignored it.
-
I do find it quite funny that tyke is accussing people of being hypocritical for being Labour supporter's and not wishing to support Brexit (a right-wing Tory project since the mid 1990's, designed ultimately to reduce/scrap worker's rights, environmental protection and turn the country into a tax haven for oligarchs and money lauderers) yet on another thread criticises people for wishing to reform the House of Lords (a left-wing policy since before the formation of the Labour Party) as 'this is what the Tories want so it is wrong'.
But as no-one else has mentioned it I wont.
-
I do find it quite funny that tyke is accussing people of being hypocritical for being Labour supporter's and not wishing to support Brexit (a right-wing Tory project since the mid 1990's, designed ultimately to reduce/scrap worker's rights, environmental protection and turn the country into a tax haven for oligarchs and money lauderers) yet on another thread criticises people for wishing to reform the House of Lords (a left-wing policy since before the formation of the Labour Party) as 'this is what the Tories want so it is wrong'.
But as no-one else has mentioned it I wont.
You'll do well Wilts to rewrite history with someone of my age and trade union background .
The old left were against the common market and EEC from the outset , Tony Benn and the trade unions stood alongside Enoch Powell at the 1975 referendum .
I haven't moved one inch on the matter but the left of today if you can call them that are the ones who have sold out to the EU project .
On the house of lords point let me put it this way to you , how would you feel about a right wing Tory government and an 80 seat majority with Boris Johnson as PM and nobody marking their homework ? .
Let's be pragmatic about this and ditch the class warfare shall we .
You might want to think about why Johnson wants rid of em if he could get his way .
-
And I'll say again Tyke. What have they done to enforce that.
Back in 2008, we said "Yes, whatever" and ignored it.
Billy .
The EU have the power to fine members of the EU billions of Euros if they don't comply with their excessive debt procedure plan which are exclusively on their terms it seems .
They threatened Italy with a €3bn fine in 2018 if they didn't do as they were told .
Just because a gun doesn't get fired don't mistake it for weakness , the fact that the EU have the gun fully loaded is enough to for them to dictate economic policy on a nation state .
-
I do find it quite funny that tyke is accussing people of being hypocritical for being Labour supporter's and not wishing to support Brexit (a right-wing Tory project since the mid 1990's, designed ultimately to reduce/scrap worker's rights, environmental protection and turn the country into a tax haven for oligarchs and money lauderers) yet on another thread criticises people for wishing to reform the House of Lords (a left-wing policy since before the formation of the Labour Party) as 'this is what the Tories want so it is wrong'.
But as no-one else has mentioned it I wont.
You'll do well Wilts to rewrite history with someone of my age and trade union background .
The old left were against the common market and EEC from the outset , Tony Benn and the trade unions stood alongside Enoch Powell at the 1975 referendum .
I haven't moved one inch on the matter but the left of today if you can call them that are the ones who have sold out to the EU project .
On the house of lords point let me put it this way to you , how would you feel about a right wing Tory government and an 80 seat majority with Boris Johnson as PM and nobody marking their homework ? .
Let's be pragmatic about this and ditch the class warfare shall we .
You might want to think about why Johnson wants rid of em if he could get his way .
The same reason he campaigned for Brexit tyke, the same reason...