0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
BBAnd there you go again.It's not about giving in to doom and gloom. It's about going into situation with your eyes open, informed by expert opinion.When you drive, do you shut your eyes and hope for the best?
A bit of a round up of what happened ........We had a vote where most didnt know what they wanted run by a government that didnt explain what was on offer easily subverted by some that did.We are now at a point where those that voted to leave cant tell us coherently what they wanted or the benefits of what is on offer or what theyll get and a government that doesnt appear to know any of the above.
Or, maybe you're one of these mates of Michael Gove? You seem to have his disdain for experts who tell you things you don't want to hear. It's the antithesis of being adult. Ignore the evidence of experts with a track record of getting all the big things broadly right. Trust your gut instinct. Is that what you'd do if you had cancer?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on March 03, 2020, 09:47:44 pmOr, maybe you're one of these mates of Michael Gove? You seem to have his disdain for experts who tell you things you don't want to hear. It's the antithesis of being adult. Ignore the evidence of experts with a track record of getting all the big things broadly right. Trust your gut instinct. Is that what you'd do if you had cancer?You are aware Billy I take it that GDP doesn't include the value of goods and services produced at home .
Quote from: SydneyRover on March 02, 2020, 08:38:43 amA bit of a round up of what happened ........We had a vote where most didnt know what they wanted run by a government that didnt explain what was on offer easily subverted by some that did.We are now at a point where those that voted to leave cant tell us coherently what they wanted or the benefits of what is on offer or what theyll get and a government that doesnt appear to know any of the above. I couldn't help but notice your post Sydney having had a couple of days away with work commitments .Oh yes the leavers didn't know what they were voting for , some probably didn't as in every election or referendum that's taken place I'd imagine .Of course the euro fanatics within the Labour Movement or your average Guardian reader if you like will tell you that they totally knew what they were voting for and with it tried to claim the intelligent ground .The problem as I see it is quite the opposite , or maybe they simply stuck two fingers in their lug holes so they can carry on lifting Estonians out of poverty or maybe they simply thought leavers were too thick to spot their hypocrisy .I think it's a fairly reasonable thing to suggest that those in the Labour Movement robustly oppose the Tory austerity programme which has caused needless suffering to millions of people in this country and will continue to do so for a good while yet .You might then wonder why on earth they'd trumpet the EU who have a far more devastating programme of austerity they have inflicted on Greece , Italy , France , Netherlands , Spain , Ireland and Portugal .I mean it's bad enough having to eat this austerity cake baked by your own government but to have it served by a bunch of unelected Euro bureaucrats in Brussels is quite another thing altogether .What kind of a Labour Movement would stand behind this you have to ask yourself ? .You'd have also thought Mr and Mrs Middle Class from Camden would have spotted their hypocrisy .Maybe they didn't know .
Quote from: tyke1962 on March 05, 2020, 08:54:37 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on March 03, 2020, 09:47:44 pmOr, maybe you're one of these mates of Michael Gove? You seem to have his disdain for experts who tell you things you don't want to hear. It's the antithesis of being adult. Ignore the evidence of experts with a track record of getting all the big things broadly right. Trust your gut instinct. Is that what you'd do if you had cancer?You are aware Billy I take it that GDP doesn't include the value of goods and services produced at home .Here we go. Here's the second phase of the argument.Phase 1: Assert that you are right.When that is knocked down, move to phase two.Phase 2: Question the premise of your opponent's case.Go on Tyke. I'll indulge you. What precisely do you mean by that? Do you mean goods produced in a domestic dwelling?
Quote from: tyke1962 on March 05, 2020, 08:18:03 pmQuote from: SydneyRover on March 02, 2020, 08:38:43 amA bit of a round up of what happened ........We had a vote where most didnt know what they wanted run by a government that didnt explain what was on offer easily subverted by some that did.We are now at a point where those that voted to leave cant tell us coherently what they wanted or the benefits of what is on offer or what theyll get and a government that doesnt appear to know any of the above. I couldn't help but notice your post Sydney having had a couple of days away with work commitments .Oh yes the leavers didn't know what they were voting for , some probably didn't as in every election or referendum that's taken place I'd imagine .Of course the euro fanatics within the Labour Movement or your average Guardian reader if you like will tell you that they totally knew what they were voting for and with it tried to claim the intelligent ground .The problem as I see it is quite the opposite , or maybe they simply stuck two fingers in their lug holes so they can carry on lifting Estonians out of poverty or maybe they simply thought leavers were too thick to spot their hypocrisy .I think it's a fairly reasonable thing to suggest that those in the Labour Movement robustly oppose the Tory austerity programme which has caused needless suffering to millions of people in this country and will continue to do so for a good while yet .You might then wonder why on earth they'd trumpet the EU who have a far more devastating programme of austerity they have inflicted on Greece , Italy , France , Netherlands , Spain , Ireland and Portugal .I mean it's bad enough having to eat this austerity cake baked by your own government but to have it served by a bunch of unelected Euro bureaucrats in Brussels is quite another thing altogether .What kind of a Labour Movement would stand behind this you have to ask yourself ? .You'd have also thought Mr and Mrs Middle Class from Camden would have spotted their hypocrisy .Maybe they didn't know . To be honest Tyke I think very few people on either side including those in government knew what they were voting for nor the consequences of a pro-brexit outcome and we/they still don't. I think remainers understood better the consequences of leaving and that some/many leavers if they did know were determined to give some one (themselves even) a bloody nose of which I understand.Think of the Austerity imposed on Greece Italy France as the imposition of Fair Play rules and their economies will improve and that they will/may get their houses in order by putting and end to rampant corruption, unlike ours which went into reverse and for no good reason. Although Austerity on the continent was designed and imposed by the EU it was signed up to by the leaders of those countries and although in a difficult position those countries elected to accept and stay rather than cut and run because presumably they could see the long term benefit of being a member of the richest trading bloc in the world.Labour has made many many mistakes but on balance if all the pros and cons were tabulated Labour-Tory-EU I think the average person from the north of England would see that in terms of well being and monetary terms that their lives and those of their neighbours would be better with a labour government and being a member of the EU.My leanings are well to the left which many remind me and I wear proudly but I am a pragmatist, more so as I age and although my first preference would be some sort of socialist republic but I do understand and history plainly shows that this would turn out to be a corrupted mess just as globalism has proven to be.''You'd have also thought Mr and Mrs Middle Class from Camden would have spotted their hypocrisy'' I think most of these now vote to pull up the ladder.
Like I said last night Tyke. Who is this "EU" that imposed those policies?
This is an objective look at Greece and Austerityhttps://www.choices.edu/teaching-news-lesson/greece-eu-navigating-debt-austerity/
The UK is the only European country without a primarily nationalised railway network. Although to be acurate our railways are mostly state run. They are just run by the national state railways of other countries.It's UK government policy since Thatcher that stop the UK having a nationalised railway network, not EU rules.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-railways-eu-rules-nationalise-single-market-restrictions-labour-a8968691.html
''This is a conversation that's never taken place as far as I can see , a huge proportion of the Labour Party support austerity dished out by the EU but apparently robustly oppose the Tory governments strategy''Just on this point Tyke the UK government had a choice because there was a reasonable credible framework in place to collect taxes control corruption and pay down debt even if it grossly advantaged those at the top and against all advice and economic history it chose an ideological path to further wage war against the masses. Other countries within the EU that signed up to Austerity had Hobson's choice especially Greece where the corruption of tax collection was rampant, remember the aerial photo's of swimming pools owners matched up against those paying zero tax? Greece either complied or exited I presume, I'm not sure what the choices were if any, but I am sure that if they had chosen to exit the EU they would be in a far worse place and civil war would not have been a total shock.
I'm working my way through Greece at the moment and most of it appears to boil down to bad management by those in charge. Of course the poor paid for the largesse and are still paying.Added: they had to accept a bailout coupled with Austerity or go back to the drachma which no one wanted, in the end with the new boys in charge they accepted the bail out loans but later the money lenders relented a bit and eased the payments regime.it's been plenty tough there with the poorest taking the brunt of course. What it shows me is you can never stand back and say whats the point because if you do you'll get turned over and screwed.