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Some might not like this .....https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/03/labour-defends-new-strategy-to-focus-on-patriotism-and-union-flag
Quote from: Bentley Bullet on February 04, 2021, 03:48:29 pmSome might not like this .....https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/03/labour-defends-new-strategy-to-focus-on-patriotism-and-union-flagYou?
Tyke.What policies do you think Labour could have that would result in them being 20% ahead?
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on February 04, 2021, 04:08:45 pmQuote from: Bentley Bullet on February 04, 2021, 03:48:29 pmSome might not like this .....https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/03/labour-defends-new-strategy-to-focus-on-patriotism-and-union-flagYou?I've always flown the flag for the UK, and England. Are you gonna start now?
I think a lot of the criticism for starmer is harsh and unwarranted. He's making some mistakes but he's got a good approach. Being the opposition when the government have problems (eg test and trace initially) is much easier than a time where they've actually made some big decisions on vaccines that work. Where does he go as an opposition with that? Actually aswell the Tories have stepped up a little of late and started to get their own wins with a different approach. There are though 3.5 years until the next election and that should be labours aim.
Quote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on February 04, 2021, 04:57:53 pmI think a lot of the criticism for starmer is harsh and unwarranted. He's making some mistakes but he's got a good approach. Being the opposition when the government have problems (eg test and trace initially) is much easier than a time where they've actually made some big decisions on vaccines that work. Where does he go as an opposition with that? Actually aswell the Tories have stepped up a little of late and started to get their own wins with a different approach. There are though 3.5 years until the next election and that should be labours aim.It's the fact the divides within the party show little sign of going away bfyp , in fact they seem to be widening .That's my concern , is Starmer capable of pulling everyone together ? , does he really understand it ? .The union jack approach suggests not , Clive Lewis and the metropolitan set going nuts whilst the red wall can see the fakeness a mile away , the result is lose - lose and once again " out of touch " is ringing in their ears .It's an unenviable task I couldn't say otherwise but we are where we are and when Starmer does something right I say so .
Quote from: tyke1962 on February 04, 2021, 05:20:13 pmQuote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on February 04, 2021, 04:57:53 pmI think a lot of the criticism for starmer is harsh and unwarranted. He's making some mistakes but he's got a good approach. Being the opposition when the government have problems (eg test and trace initially) is much easier than a time where they've actually made some big decisions on vaccines that work. Where does he go as an opposition with that? Actually aswell the Tories have stepped up a little of late and started to get their own wins with a different approach. There are though 3.5 years until the next election and that should be labours aim.It's the fact the divides within the party show little sign of going away bfyp , in fact they seem to be widening .That's my concern , is Starmer capable of pulling everyone together ? , does he really understand it ? .The union jack approach suggests not , Clive Lewis and the metropolitan set going nuts whilst the red wall can see the fakeness a mile away , the result is lose - lose and once again " out of touch " is ringing in their ears .It's an unenviable task I couldn't say otherwise but we are where we are and when Starmer does something right I say so .Perhaps the members ought to respect the result of an election?
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on February 04, 2021, 06:37:47 pmQuote from: tyke1962 on February 04, 2021, 05:20:13 pmQuote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on February 04, 2021, 04:57:53 pmI think a lot of the criticism for starmer is harsh and unwarranted. He's making some mistakes but he's got a good approach. Being the opposition when the government have problems (eg test and trace initially) is much easier than a time where they've actually made some big decisions on vaccines that work. Where does he go as an opposition with that? Actually aswell the Tories have stepped up a little of late and started to get their own wins with a different approach. There are though 3.5 years until the next election and that should be labours aim.It's the fact the divides within the party show little sign of going away bfyp , in fact they seem to be widening .That's my concern , is Starmer capable of pulling everyone together ? , does he really understand it ? .The union jack approach suggests not , Clive Lewis and the metropolitan set going nuts whilst the red wall can see the fakeness a mile away , the result is lose - lose and once again " out of touch " is ringing in their ears .It's an unenviable task I couldn't say otherwise but we are where we are and when Starmer does something right I say so .Perhaps the members ought to respect the result of an election?They may well do but it's not their decision , it takes 20% of Labour MP's to force a leadership challenge .
Quote from: tyke1962 on February 04, 2021, 05:20:13 pmQuote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on February 04, 2021, 04:57:53 pmI think a lot of the criticism for starmer is harsh and unwarranted. He's making some mistakes but he's got a good approach. Being the opposition when the government have problems (eg test and trace initially) is much easier than a time where they've actually made some big decisions on vaccines that work. Where does he go as an opposition with that? Actually aswell the Tories have stepped up a little of late and started to get their own wins with a different approach. There are though 3.5 years until the next election and that should be labours aim.It's the fact the divides within the party show little sign of going away bfyp , in fact they seem to be widening .That's my concern , is Starmer capable of pulling everyone together ? , does he really understand it ? .The union jack approach suggests not , Clive Lewis and the metropolitan set going nuts whilst the red wall can see the fakeness a mile away , the result is lose - lose and once again " out of touch " is ringing in their ears .It's an unenviable task I couldn't say otherwise but we are where we are and when Starmer does something right I say so .Perhaps the members ought to respect the result of an election?
Quote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on February 04, 2021, 04:57:53 pmI think a lot of the criticism for starmer is harsh and unwarranted. He's making some mistakes but he's got a good approach. Being the opposition when the government have problems (eg test and trace initially) is much easier than a time where they've actually made some big decisions on vaccines that work. Where does he go as an opposition with that? Actually aswell the Tories have stepped up a little of late and started to get their own wins with a different approach. There are though 3.5 years until the next election and that should be labours aim.It's the fact the divides within the party show little sign of going away bfyp , in fact they seem to be widening .That's my concern , is Starmer capable of pulling everyone together ? , does he really understand it ? .The union jack approach suggests not , Clive Lewis and the metropolitan set going nuts whilst the red wall can see the fakeness a mile away , the result is lose - lose and once again " out of touch " is ringing in their ears .It's an unenviable task I couldn't say otherwise but we are where we are and when Starmer does something right I say so .
The problem Starmer and the party have is the legacy they've inherited , Corbyn was seen as unpatriotic with his links to the IRA , Brown calling that women in Rochdale a bigot when the microphone was still turned on , Thornbury poking fun at white van man and his St Georges flag in Rochester on social media .Starmer as a staunch remainer and architect of Labour's second referendum policy seems a bit fake suddenly putting the Union Jack around his shoulders .Trying to out patriotic Johnson and the Tories by using the Union Jack seems a bit desperate to me and actually lacking real depth .Then again it could be argued he can't win , by attempting to promote a more patriotic view he's getting pelters from the likes of Clive Lewis who seems to view the Union Jack in the same terms the swastika is seen .The usual suspects on The Guardian topic message boards are all ready to cancel their memberships should this approach be adopted if they haven't already due to Starmer voting with the government's trade deal with the EU .The divisions within the party seems to grow ever more wider by the week .From having regained some optimism when he was elected after the 2019 election debacle I'm becoming ever more disillusioned by the current state of affairs .If the party was up against one of the Tory heavyweights like Thatcher you could at least understand the difficulties but the fact remains he's facing off against a buffoon who's decisions have led to thousands upon thousands of unnecessary deaths and gives contracts out to people whose only credibility is to donate to the Tory Party or have connections to them .The truth is the Labour Party should be 20 points ahead of the government in the polls but they aren't although to be fair he's at least pulled them level from the position he inherited so all may not be lost yet .There's far more questions than answers right now with regards to Starmer and it's not beyond comprehension that a change before the next election maybe needed , it's still 3 years away after all .As I've said before I'm willing to give him more time but I have to say he'd certainly be made aware of the need to be doing better if it was left to me .
Quote from: tyke1962 on February 04, 2021, 02:02:16 pmThe problem Starmer and the party have is the legacy they've inherited , Corbyn was seen as unpatriotic with his links to the IRA , Brown calling that women in Rochdale a bigot when the microphone was still turned on , Thornbury poking fun at white van man and his St Georges flag in Rochester on social media .Starmer as a staunch remainer and architect of Labour's second referendum policy seems a bit fake suddenly putting the Union Jack around his shoulders .Trying to out patriotic Johnson and the Tories by using the Union Jack seems a bit desperate to me and actually lacking real depth .Then again it could be argued he can't win , by attempting to promote a more patriotic view he's getting pelters from the likes of Clive Lewis who seems to view the Union Jack in the same terms the swastika is seen .The usual suspects on The Guardian topic message boards are all ready to cancel their memberships should this approach be adopted if they haven't already due to Starmer voting with the government's trade deal with the EU .The divisions within the party seems to grow ever more wider by the week .From having regained some optimism when he was elected after the 2019 election debacle I'm becoming ever more disillusioned by the current state of affairs .If the party was up against one of the Tory heavyweights like Thatcher you could at least understand the difficulties but the fact remains he's facing off against a buffoon who's decisions have led to thousands upon thousands of unnecessary deaths and gives contracts out to people whose only credibility is to donate to the Tory Party or have connections to them .The truth is the Labour Party should be 20 points ahead of the government in the polls but they aren't although to be fair he's at least pulled them level from the position he inherited so all may not be lost yet .There's far more questions than answers right now with regards to Starmer and it's not beyond comprehension that a change before the next election maybe needed , it's still 3 years away after all .As I've said before I'm willing to give him more time but I have to say he'd certainly be made aware of the need to be doing better if it was left to me .Another brilliant post, Tyke. I too was impressed by Starmer when he first took over. He distanced himself from the mistakes he'd made in pushing for a second referendum, by telling everyone it was time to move on from the Brexit vote; something a few on here look incapable of doing.His big problem, as I've said on here before, is the raging problems in the Labour Party between the liberalists and the left. I honestly don't know if he can ever sort that out.I would love Andy Burnham to be given the chance at some point, but that's just my personal preference.
Really Tyke, tell us what is brave about johnson's crew and those that voted for him?
Tyke I will read it again if you can explain how your idyll of a little britain or world for that matter won't result in a another giant leap backwards for the average wage earner if that is possible with zero hours contracts and conditions as they are, have you any proof that being small will develop into a workers utopia as some new unknown force steps up as a champion for the downtrodden.
Quote from: SydneyRover on February 04, 2021, 09:06:44 pmTyke I will read it again if you can explain how your idyll of a little britain or world for that matter won't result in a another giant leap backwards for the average wage earner if that is possible with zero hours contracts and conditions as they are, have you any proof that being small will develop into a workers utopia as some new unknown force steps up as a champion for the downtrodden.Little Britain and a workers utopia ...... wow !!! .I'm far from the socialist you have me down for Sydney .History tells us socialism doesn't work so let's clear that up straight away , every economy needs capital and wealthy people .My basic politics are this , that wealth created by using capital are distributed far more robustly than we see today , what we have today is capital creating more capital for the benefit of those with capital which then buys political influence and creates a system that's difficult to oppose .I'm not a socialist , I'm anti neoliberal .The less neoliberal groups that exist the more of a fighting chance you have .I've always seen the EU as a neoliberal group who serve the interests of capital under the guise of globalisation .Globalisation in my experience is simply the neoliberal vehicle that seeks to drive down labour costs , the more cheap labour you create the less likely that labour cost will rise so that more and more profits can be funneled to boardrooms and shareholders and the more capital you create the more influence you can buy through lobbying , donations etc to keep the system working for you and you alone .Which isn't to say migration should ever be ended , not at all , the skill shortages we need but areas such as south yorkshire needed an abundance of cheap eastern european labour in an already economically challenged area like it needed an hole in the head .Now I understand the economics show that migration has economic value but that's not felt in areas like this , if it did they'd have voted to remain wouldn't they ?Blair's government estimated 30k would come over from eastern europe in 2004 , it was actually nearer 3 million .That's a big change to have to accept both culturally , job seeking , housing and schools in depressed areas in such a short space of time hence my agreement in the thread that globalisation was going at a pace people found hard to accept .The Japanese and Australian governments aren't seen as little Japanese or little Aussies with their immigration controls and in all honesty I'm at a loss as to why the little Britain card is waved at people such as myself .I'm also at a loss as to why such views are considered bigoted by the liberal left .There's a reason you don't find many liberals in poor economic areas and its more a professional and metropolitan class thing and that's because they have probably had a benefit from it , have jobs that can land opportunities in europe through freedom of movement , have kids in nice schools , have private healthcare and live in nice areas , it's not envy by any means good luck to em I'm just painting the picture as I see it .It's also not particularly helpful that the party who were historically supposed to represent them decided it's political interests were best served by becoming the party of the professional and metropolitan class first and foremost and south yorkshire had to lump it .So Sydney if my world view doesn't reconcile with yours there's a good reason and absolutely nothing to do with little Britain or a workers utopia .Your welcome .
Quote from: tyke1962 on February 04, 2021, 10:09:46 pmQuote from: SydneyRover on February 04, 2021, 09:06:44 pmTyke I will read it again if you can explain how your idyll of a little britain or world for that matter won't result in a another giant leap backwards for the average wage earner if that is possible with zero hours contracts and conditions as they are, have you any proof that being small will develop into a workers utopia as some new unknown force steps up as a champion for the downtrodden.Little Britain and a workers utopia ...... wow !!! .I'm far from the socialist you have me down for Sydney .History tells us socialism doesn't work so let's clear that up straight away , every economy needs capital and wealthy people .My basic politics are this , that wealth created by using capital are distributed far more robustly than we see today , what we have today is capital creating more capital for the benefit of those with capital which then buys political influence and creates a system that's difficult to oppose .I'm not a socialist , I'm anti neoliberal .The less neoliberal groups that exist the more of a fighting chance you have .I've always seen the EU as a neoliberal group who serve the interests of capital under the guise of globalisation .Globalisation in my experience is simply the neoliberal vehicle that seeks to drive down labour costs , the more cheap labour you create the less likely that labour cost will rise so that more and more profits can be funneled to boardrooms and shareholders and the more capital you create the more influence you can buy through lobbying , donations etc to keep the system working for you and you alone .Which isn't to say migration should ever be ended , not at all , the skill shortages we need but areas such as south yorkshire needed an abundance of cheap eastern european labour in an already economically challenged area like it needed an hole in the head .Now I understand the economics show that migration has economic value but that's not felt in areas like this , if it did they'd have voted to remain wouldn't they ?Blair's government estimated 30k would come over from eastern europe in 2004 , it was actually nearer 3 million .That's a big change to have to accept both culturally , job seeking , housing and schools in depressed areas in such a short space of time hence my agreement in the thread that globalisation was going at a pace people found hard to accept .The Japanese and Australian governments aren't seen as little Japanese or little Aussies with their immigration controls and in all honesty I'm at a loss as to why the little Britain card is waved at people such as myself .I'm also at a loss as to why such views are considered bigoted by the liberal left .There's a reason you don't find many liberals in poor economic areas and its more a professional and metropolitan class thing and that's because they have probably had a benefit from it , have jobs that can land opportunities in europe through freedom of movement , have kids in nice schools , have private healthcare and live in nice areas , it's not envy by any means good luck to em I'm just painting the picture as I see it .It's also not particularly helpful that the party who were historically supposed to represent them decided it's political interests were best served by becoming the party of the professional and metropolitan class first and foremost and south yorkshire had to lump it .So Sydney if my world view doesn't reconcile with yours there's a good reason and absolutely nothing to do with little Britain or a workers utopia .Your welcome .I don't believe I mentioned socialism Tyke, maybe you are feeling a bit over sensitive, I mean the little britain as in a shrunken position in world affairs and a smaller gdp inevitable when one opts out of the richest market in the world or make it tougher to access. When you can explain advantages of that maybe you'll be along the way to convincing me you have the answers. Voting to allow tories to hold the reins will never be an answer to anything but misery for the working classes and the working poor and I feel that only those that can sit back and enjoy the hard won riches of previous generations such as a home and a generous pensions can afford such largesse. Maybe you'd have been better off trying to make changes you wanted from within because from without I don;t believe that you can.apologies for the delay I was shunted down the queue for the laptop.
Tyke.The failure to respond to freedom of movement with investment in the required infrastructure and services is not a failing of the EU though. It is a failing of national Govt.I've given my two pennorth on this many times. The root cause of the justified anger in the communities that you highlight is not the immigration. It is the lack of investment. Austerity is to blame.If we had properly managed the exit from the Great Recession from 2010 onwards, we'd have had rising wages and rising investment in schools, hospitals, housing etc. Instead, we went into the economically illiterate mess of Austerity which reduced the investment and killed off the recovery, leading to the longest spell of falling real wages since the Napoleonic Wars. That was nothing whatsoever to do with immigration. But immigration is an easy thing to blame when people are struggling. Farage is enough of an opportunist to grab that chance to shape the political agenda. And then, Cameron was shitting himself that UKIP would take enough votes off the Tories to lose him the 2015 Election. So Cameron had to spike the threat of Farage. And for that reason and that reason alone, Cameron agreed to a referendum in the 2015 manifesto.Ironic thing is that the man who had the power to prevent Austerity was Clegg. He had the chance to insist that Austerity was dropped when he negotiated with the Tories in 2010. Instead, he chucked out the very economic policies he'd campaigned on, and went all-in on Austerity. A shallow, out of his depth failure of a politician. Now working as the public face of Facebook, defending it against accusations of it fomenting genocidal hatred. Special circle of hell reserved for that t**t.
Making public at the start of the pandemic that it was an opportunity to degrade and get at the government,didn't sit well with me and I think a lot of others, but they ran with it nobody more than BST. Unfortunately unlike BST whose criticism was consistent, the labour front bench showed how shallow they were and constantly came over as what they are opportunists and vindictive and with an ulterior motive other than solving the problems of the pandemic which became all inclusive to life in the country, the same attitude they showed over Brexit, just using it to gain power. Gradually they have, and the leader have faded, and are now a side show again.