New manager, new style of play?

[danumdon]

As we are now drawing towards the point where the new manager will soon be unveiled it seems from the forum messages, answers to this topic that quite a few members are forming their opinion on certain prospective managers on their ideas or beliefs in how that manger will set up his side and play.

You see i have a problem with the clubs stated aims about reverting back to "our particular style of play that we wish the new manager to promote alongside us re discovering our clubs identity".

Think about this for a moment, what does it actually mean? does it mean we try to relive the SOD era and play that high speed technical style of play with small and very skillful players, Your Copps and Osters ect, will this work again, will we ever have this type of player on our books again, could or would it enable us to punch above our weight in the higher league? see i think we were very much spoiled by what we had and achieved in that period, could we have done better with some prudent additions, would some good defenders have changed the whole balance and ethos we had in that squad, who knows?

I think we have to seriously look at where we are as a club now, where we want to go and what we expect to achieve. Its been obvious to most of our support that we are treading water as we have been for the last 3 years or since GM left. If we look at clubs who we should be measuring ourselves by in terms of size, crowds, potential their seems to be a consensus that you cannot play an expansive game with small skillful players at our level, we just cannot afford the players who would be able to play this way and get us out of this league and progress, it looks like you need to go big and ugly if not direct and athletic.

With this in mind you then look to our stated aim of "Club identity and aims and ambitions" does this fit in with what the vast majority of our support want, a SOD mk2 ?

I think we need to select a manager who will bring in players who have the size and physicality to match your Rotherham's , Wycombe's of this world, if they are also skillful and good on the ball then great but this does always not tend to follow.

If we are serious about progressing the club to a position where we can sustain a presence at a higher level but do it in manner that allows us to continue to trade without going bust then it looks like we need to be looking to managers who will fit and carry out this remit and that to me means looking at the types of managers like your McCartheys. McClarens who will look to building a no nonsense type of squad who can handle themselves on the pitch and not be bossed about and harried of the ball. In effect the complete opposite to what we have at the present, this will not be an easy thing to develop in a short space of time but if we are serious about this then it looks like a club like us in our financial situation will have to get with the program and look in this direction. To go down the route we now have will be suicide for us, we did it once before, to attempt to rediscover that again is a massive long shot.

[drfchound]

It is become becoming more apparent that to get promotion from L1 teams need to be a good mix of big, experienced  physical players with a few good technical ones in the mix too.
More often than not when I look at our team and our opponents I see our lads as being much smaller generally.
Inevitably we get bullied on the pitch.
You also need plenty of experienced players and again we don’t have enough of that.
Watching the SoD team was amazing but I don’t think we will be privileged enough to see the likes of that again, at least not in the foreseeable future.
Fans want to see the team win games and that is probably the only thing that will improve attendances, and improve revenue.
I saw enough in the games against Scunny and Mansfield to know that if we go down that we will have to deal with, and probably have to play, more long ball stuff to get out of there and back to L1.
That might have to be considered if we sign players in January on 18 month deals.
It won’t be pretty to watch but tippy tappy stuff from lightweight players won’t get us promoted back to L1 and more importantly won’t keep us up.

[phil old leake]

Reading the title of the thread threw me a bit

When reading what people write on here about our games I didn’t think we had a style of play to change

[Campsall rover]

As we are now drawing towards the point where the new manager will soon be unveiled it seems from the forum messages, answers to this topic that quite a few members are forming their opinion on certain prospective managers on their ideas or beliefs in how that manger will set up his side and play.

You see i have a problem with the clubs stated aims about reverting back to "our particular style of play that we wish the new manager to promote alongside us re discovering our clubs identity".

Think about this for a moment, what does it actually mean? does it mean we try to relive the SOD era and play that high speed technical style of play with small and very skillful players, Your Copps and Osters ect, will this work again, will we ever have this type of player on our books again, could or would it enable us to punch above our weight in the higher league? see i think we were very much spoiled by what we had and achieved in that period, could we have done better with some prudent additions, would some good defenders have changed the whole balance and ethos we had in that squad, who knows?

I think we have to seriously look at where we are as a club now, where we want to go and what we expect to achieve. Its been obvious to most of our support that we are treading water as we have been for the last 3 years or since GM left. If we look at clubs who we should be measuring ourselves by in terms of size, crowds, potential their seems to be a consensus that you cannot play an expansive game with small skillful players at our level, we just cannot afford the players who would be able to play this way and get us out of this league and progress, it looks like you need to go big and ugly if not direct and athletic.

With this in mind you then look to our stated aim of "Club identity and aims and ambitions" does this fit in with what the vast majority of our support want, a SOD mk2 ?

I think we need to select a manager who will bring in players who have the size and physicality to match your Rotherham's , Wycombe's of this world, if they are also skillful and good on the ball then great but this does always not tend to follow.

If we are serious about progressing the club to a position where we can sustain a presence at a higher level but do it in manner that allows us to continue to trade without going bust then it looks like we need to be looking to managers who will fit and carry out this remit and that to me means looking at the types of managers like your McCartheys. McClarens who will look to building a no nonsense type of squad who can handle themselves on the pitch and not be bossed about and harried of the ball. In effect the complete opposite to what we have at the present, this will not be an easy thing to develop in a short space of time but if we are serious about this then it looks like a club like us in our financial situation will have to get with the program and look in this direction. To go down the route we now have will be suicide for us, we did it once before, to attempt to rediscover that again is a massive long shot.

That is a great post danumdon.
It is what I have said in a post last week.
We will not get out of this league playing pretty football unless we can find a Sullivan, O’ Connor, Mills, Lockwood, Roberts, Stock, Wellens, Coppinger, Green, Heffernan and Hayter. 

Now to find that quality again that Penney and SOD did for a pittance is about a likely as me winning the lottery. Yes I do not even buy a ticket.

We need 3/4 possibly 5 good technical players in the team. The others we need are some physically big and hard no none sense players in the mould of Jones, McCombe, Quinn, Spurr, Keegan, Brown and Painter.

You just need to see 4 of those named were our back 4 in 2012/13  We had 2 big strong lads up front and a hard ball winner in midfield.
We then had Coppinger, Cotterill, Furman, Lundstrum, Bennett, and Hulme who were good technical players who could create and score goals.

Oh and the goalie was not too bad was he.  Sully was getting on a bit but his experience and know how made up for age.

Now if we can get somewhere near to replicating that squad than we have a chance of getting out of this league.

Getting our identity back. Sorry which identity. The only one our supporters are interested in is a winning identity.
Apart from the shirts. Back to a proper hooped shirt. Now that would be a good start.

 

[roversdude]

I think style is secondary, the main thing is to avoid relegation this year. We can revisit the style next season

[jmt23]

This is exactly why SOD was a one off, he could see potential in certain players that were relatively low priced, and he understood we couldn’t afford to be like other clubs playing the more traditional English way (Rotherham/Wycombe)
His way was to play a style to combat that, keeping within the budget he had. We did also have some tougher and long ball style players in the team, for when he needed it.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Style is probably a bit of a red herring as said above.

We would all welcome high workrate and determination with players able to cope with the physical demands whilst performing the basics well. That's just a starting point as it makes us more difficult to beat. Then you can work on strategy. How best to move the ball from A to B. We've tended to appreciate the teams that can pass the ball well and show a bit of flair occasionally.

Even the 12/13 team liked to play football although it wasn't always possible so they were able to adapt and get ugly wins and draws. The pitches then including our own at the time, were less conducive to on the deck football. The rules were different where playing out from the back wasn't such a familiar tactic. But that team had a crown jewel in Cotteriil.

I watched a live game from that season the other day, when we played Swindon in March and we were at the top, very much on the run in. The commentators picked out Cotterills stats. 37 assists and 8 goals!! Wow.

The game wasn't a great game but summed up what we were about that season. No nonsense, battle hard, get the ball into the danger areas as frequently as possible and load the box on set pieces. We won the game 1-0 with a McCombe header from a Cotterill corner.

It's not rocket science and it's not out of the question to demand that workrate from any team first and foremost. 

[idler]

That game was memorable for how Chris Brown played.
He was a masterclass that day. Ran his blood to water and despite regularly getting fouled holding the ball up and frustrating their defence.
I also remember Paddy Madden having a go at Rob Jones and Jones just more or less dismissing him and laughing.

[Campsall rover]

Style is probably a bit of a red herring as said above.

We would all welcome high workrate and determination with players able to cope with the physical demands whilst performing the basics well. That's just a starting point as it makes us more difficult to beat. Then you can work on strategy. How best to move the ball from A to B. We've tended to appreciate the teams that can pass the ball well and show a bit of flair occasionally.

Even the 12/13 team liked to play football although it wasn't always possible so they were able to adapt and get ugly wins and draws. The pitches then including our own at the time, were less conducive to on the deck football. The rules were different where playing out from the back wasn't such a familiar tactic. But that team had a crown jewel in Cotteriil.

I watched a live game from that season the other day, when we played Swindon in March and we were at the top, very much on the run in. The commentators picked out Cotterills stats. 37 assists and 8 goals!! Wow.

The game wasn't a great game but summed up what we were about that season. No nonsense, battle hard, get the ball into the danger areas as frequently as possible and load the box on set pieces. We won the game 1-0 with a McCombe header from a Cotterill corner.

It's not rocket science and it's not out of the question to demand that workrate from any team first and foremost.

My step son got married at the Crown Hotel in Bawtry that weekend DBR, it was Easter, end of March.
The players were all in the hotel on the night before the match against Swindon.
The team spirit was there to see for all.
Brian Flynn just sat in the corner hidden behind his Daily Telegraph and Yorkshire post etc etc.
While the players all sat at the bar with a soft drink. All dressed in their Rovers track suits.

Game was a bit dour as was the Tranmere game on the Monday. Both 1-0 wins but that team had got steel and got the job done.

[Sammy Chung was King]

We need a Dave Penney type team, that can play and mix it if needed, to get out of trouble.
The sacking was done at just the right time. But the appointment of a new manager is meandering along as usual. Does it take this long to get the right man?.

[Campsall rover]

We need a Dave Penney type team, that can play and mix it if needed, to get out of trouble.
The sacking was done at just the right time. But the appointment of a new manager is meandering along as usual. Does it take this long to get the right man?.

In a word Yes.

There is no desperate hurry we don’t play again for 7 days.
How can they decide without speaking to the candidates.
Awful lot has to be agreed upon by both parties.

[scawsby steve]

That game was memorable for how Chris Brown played.
He was a masterclass that day. Ran his blood to water and despite regularly getting fouled holding the ball up and frustrating their defence.
I also remember Paddy Madden having a go at Rob Jones and Jones just more or less dismissing him and laughing.

Sorry to be pedantic, Idler, but Paddy Madden never played for Swindon.

[Donny Exile in York]

As we are now drawing towards the point where the new manager will soon be unveiled it seems from the forum messages, answers to this topic that quite a few members are forming their opinion on certain prospective managers on their ideas or beliefs in how that manger will set up his side and play.

You see i have a problem with the clubs stated aims about reverting back to "our particular style of play that we wish the new manager to promote alongside us re discovering our clubs identity".

Think about this for a moment, what does it actually mean? does it mean we try to relive the SOD era and play that high speed technical style of play with small and very skillful players, Your Copps and Osters ect, will this work again, will we ever have this type of player on our books again, could or would it enable us to punch above our weight in the higher league? see i think we were very much spoiled by what we had and achieved in that period, could we have done better with some prudent additions, would some good defenders have changed the whole balance and ethos we had in that squad, who knows?

I think we have to seriously look at where we are as a club now, where we want to go and what we expect to achieve. Its been obvious to most of our support that we are treading water as we have been for the last 3 years or since GM left. If we look at clubs who we should be measuring ourselves by in terms of size, crowds, potential their seems to be a consensus that you cannot play an expansive game with small skillful players at our level, we just cannot afford the players who would be able to play this way and get us out of this league and progress, it looks like you need to go big and ugly if not direct and athletic.

With this in mind you then look to our stated aim of "Club identity and aims and ambitions" does this fit in with what the vast majority of our support want, a SOD mk2 ?

I think we need to select a manager who will bring in players who have the size and physicality to match your Rotherham's , Wycombe's of this world, if they are also skillful and good on the ball then great but this does always not tend to follow.

If we are serious about progressing the club to a position where we can sustain a presence at a higher level but do it in manner that allows us to continue to trade without going bust then it looks like we need to be looking to managers who will fit and carry out this remit and that to me means looking at the types of managers like your McCartheys. McClarens who will look to building a no nonsense type of squad who can handle themselves on the pitch and not be bossed about and harried of the ball. In effect the complete opposite to what we have at the present, this will not be an easy thing to develop in a short space of time but if we are serious about this then it looks like a club like us in our financial situation will have to get with the program and look in this direction. To go down the route we now have will be suicide for us, we did it once before, to attempt to rediscover that again is a massive long shot.

That is a great post danumdon.
It is what I have said in a post last week.
We will not get out of this league playing pretty football unless we can find a Sullivan, O’ Connor, Mills, Lockwood, Roberts, Stock, Wellens, Coppinger, Green, Heffernan and Hayter. 

Now to find that quality again that Penney and SOD did for a pittance is about a likely as me winning the lottery. Yes I do not even buy a ticket.

We need 3/4 possibly 5 good technical players in the team. The others we need are some physically big and hard no none sense players in the mould of Jones, McCombe, Quinn, Spurr, Keegan, Brown and Painter.

You just need to see 4 of those named were our back 4 in 2012/13  We had 2 big strong lads up front and a hard ball winner in midfield.
We then had Coppinger, Cotterill, Furman, Lundstrum, Bennett, and Hulme who were good technical players who could create and score goals.

Oh and the goalie was not too bad was he.  Sully was getting on a bit but his experience and know how made up for age.

Now if we can get somewhere near to replicating that squad than we have a chance of getting out of this league.

Getting our identity back. Sorry which identity. The only one our supporters are interested in is a winning identity.
Apart from the shirts. Back to a proper hooped shirt. Now that would be a good start.

 

The goalkeeper for most of that season was dreadful, Gary Woods, who couldn't catch a cold. That said, with the mighty giants at the back they practically played the season without a keeper and won the title! Think Sullivan only played the final two matches, and Woods was released despite winning a league one title medal.

[RoversAlias]

Sully indeed only played the final two games, and it made a massive difference. I am convinced that if Woods had been in net at Brentford, Trotta would have scored. Even though Sully didn't actually save the penalty.

[Jonathan]

I don’t feel like we need to turn into Rotherham lite, there’s still room for a balance. For me the McCann team offered an entertaining mix of footballing ability, physicality, nastiness and pace. We weren’t the best in the league at any of the above, but we could mix it here and there. Losing Whiteman has been huge for us, he could do the lot in the middle of the park. Never mind managers, look at the results since Whiteman left.

[Alan Southstand]

And why didn’t we replace him?

[drfchound]

I don’t feel like we need to turn into Rotherham lite, there’s still room for a balance. For me the McCann team offered an entertaining mix of footballing ability, physicality, nastiness and pace. We weren’t the best in the league at any of the above, but we could mix it here and there. Losing Whiteman has been huge for us, he could do the lot in the middle of the park. Never mind managers, look at the results since Whiteman left.

McCanns team was terrific to watch.
We had Whiteman, Kane, Coppinger, Marquis, Wilkes, Butler, Downing, Rowe, Andrew and Blair as the starting outfield players.
We are massively short of that sort of quality now.

[RoversAlias]

And why didn’t we replace him?

Because Moore thought an unfit Bostock would replace him and Wellens decided other positions were more important. And the board let the manager dictate these things.

[Campsall rover]

And why didn%u2019t we replace him?

Because Moore thought an unfit Bostock would replace him and Wellens decided other positions were more important. And the board let the manager dictate these things.

It is the managers job. That is why we have a football manager. 
Please do not tell me Alias we should have the board deciding the players who are signed apart from the financial aspect of their signing.
We had all that with Richardson and Weaver. I never want to see that again.

Yes I am sure GB and DB would possibly say to the manager, do you think we need a certain position filling.
But would then leave it to the manager to decide yes or no to the question.

[RoversAlias]

And why didn%u2019t we replace him?

Because Moore thought an unfit Bostock would replace him and Wellens decided other positions were more important. And the board let the manager dictate these things.

It is the managers job. That is why we have a football manager. 
Please do not tell me Alias we should have the board deciding the players who are signed apart from the financial aspect of their signing.
We had all that with Richardson and Weaver. I never want to see that again.

Yes I am sure GB and DB would possibly say to the manager, do you think we need a certain position filling.
But would then leave it to the manager to decide yes or no to the question.

The manager is given too much agency to dictate everything, definitely. It has led to issues with the last couple of managers and appears to be what will happen again this time. I keep saying it but we have no clear football strategy and that should be set above the manager. I'm not talking about chairmen picking the team, far from it, but knowing what you want to be achieving in terms of recruitment and strategy then executing it with signings of players and the manager or head coach is not an alien concept in football.

In my original reply to Alan, I wasn't really offering any of this opinion. Merely answering his question, because those three reasons are why Whiteman hasn't been adequately replaced.

[GazLaz]

And why didn’t we replace him?

Because Moore thought an unfit Bostock would replace him and Wellens decided other positions were more important. And the board let the manager dictate these things.

You can’t replace a player with a >£5m value, impossible.

[TheFunk]

I don’t feel like we need to turn into Rotherham lite, there’s still room for a balance. For me the McCann team offered an entertaining mix of footballing ability, physicality, nastiness and pace. We weren’t the best in the league at any of the above, but we could mix it here and there. Losing Whiteman has been huge for us, he could do the lot in the middle of the park. Never mind managers, look at the results since Whiteman left.

McCanns team was terrific to watch.
We had Whiteman, Kane, Coppinger, Marquis, Wilkes, Butler, Downing, Rowe, Andrew and Blair as the starting outfield players.
We are massively short of that sort of quality now.

Yet with all those brilliant players we were still a million miles behind the top 5. Just shows how tough League 1 is.

[idler]

That game was memorable for how Chris Brown played.
He was a masterclass that day. Ran his blood to water and despite regularly getting fouled holding the ball up and frustrating their defence.
I also remember Paddy Madden having a go at Rob Jones and Jones just more or less dismissing him and laughing.

Who am I thinking of Steve? He was smallish, cocky and scored quite a few goals in matches before we played them. He played with a chip on his shoulder.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

That game was memorable for how Chris Brown played.
He was a masterclass that day. Ran his blood to water and despite regularly getting fouled holding the ball up and frustrating their defence.
I also remember Paddy Madden having a go at Rob Jones and Jones just more or less dismissing him and laughing.

Who am I thinking of Steve? He was smallish, cocky and scored quite a few goals in matches before we played them. He played with a chip on his shoulder.

Adam Rooney? He played in that game.

[Sammy Chung was King]

A manager should have all responsibility for who he wants to come in. Yes leave the financial side to others, but isn’t right if he signs to be in charge of the team and players are brought in that he doesn’t want. Which has happened at other clubs.

All this director of football rubbish will disappear when we get the right man in charge.

[RoversAlias]

And why didn’t we replace him?

Because Moore thought an unfit Bostock would replace him and Wellens decided other positions were more important. And the board let the manager dictate these things.

You can’t replace a player with a >£5m value, impossible.

Oh absolutely, like-for-like was never going to happen. What we tried to do to solve the issue didn't work though and then in the summer no attempt was made to improve on what we had in place. I'd still consider it a top priority in January to sign a holding midfielder, just behind the obvious attacking reinforcements needed.

[scawsby steve]

That game was memorable for how Chris Brown played.
He was a masterclass that day. Ran his blood to water and despite regularly getting fouled holding the ball up and frustrating their defence.
I also remember Paddy Madden having a go at Rob Jones and Jones just more or less dismissing him and laughing.

Who am I thinking of Steve? He was smallish, cocky and scored quite a few goals in matches before we played them. He played with a chip on his shoulder.

Adam Rooney? He played in that game.

I think Matt Ritchie might have played as well.

[DonnyOsmond]

A manager should have all responsibility for who he wants to come in. Yes leave the financial side to others, but isn’t right if he signs to be in charge of the team and players are brought in that he doesn’t want. Which has happened at other clubs.

All this director of football rubbish will disappear when we get the right man in charge.

Look at the clubs that are successful nowadays, the likes of Man City, Liverpool, Brentford, etc. They all have forward thinking recruitment teams and a central figure who isn't the manager leading that. The majority of signings they get right because they're able to put a lot of due diligence into acquisitions. Then look at the teams that are still living in the past like Man Utd, who constantly over pay for average players that don't fit into a specific style. We are unfortunately the latter.

As we've seen over the last few years at our club alone managers come and go. We don't want to give all the recruitment power to a manager who may want to bring in his friends from church, as the next manager may not appreciate those players the same. A Director of Football would lead on the implementation of the identity of this football club and we would bring in players and a manager that fit into that identity, that would mean minimal disruption if a manager was to leave as the new manager would play as style that fit largely with the same group of players.

Hopefully we can start becoming a more forward thinking club, instead of the concept of "this is how its always been".

[Campsall rover]

A manager should have all responsibility for who he wants to come in. Yes leave the financial side to others, but isn%u2019t right if he signs to be in charge of the team and players are brought in that he doesn%u2019t want. Which has happened at other clubs.

All this director of football rubbish will disappear when we get the right man in charge.

Look at the clubs that are successful nowadays, the likes of Man City, Liverpool, Brentford, etc. They all have forward thinking recruitment teams and a central figure who isn't the manager leading that. The majority of signings they get right because they're able to put a lot of due diligence into acquisitions. Then look at the teams that are still living in the past like Man Utd, who constantly over pay for average players that don't fit into a specific style. We are unfortunately the latter.

As we've seen over the last few years at our club alone managers come and go. We don't want to give all the recruitment power to a manager who may want to bring in his friends from church, as the next manager may not appreciate those players the same. A Director of Football would lead on the implementation of the identity of this football club and we would bring in players and a manager that fit into that identity, that would mean minimal disruption if a manager was to leave as the new manager would play as style that fit largely with the same group of players.

Hopefully we can start becoming a more forward thinking club, instead of the concept of "this is how its always been".

Great post.
We have to move on from the past model. We are behind the times with our management structure.
No one likes change do they but now is the time for it 100%
Recruitment is key and until we start to address this we are going nowhere. We are literally treading water at the present time.
Are we going to swim the channel or are we just going to settle for a 50 metre pool.