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It's actually indicative of a big economic blindspot to assume that the "costs" have to be paid back in any conventional sense. It's simply not possible to pay off £0.5-1trn of debt by raising taxes. It would mean putting income tax up by 5% for 50 years, just to pay off the capital.No country does that. What you have to do is grow your way out of the debt, so the capital goes down as a proportion of your national income. And the only way to get the sort of growth rates we need is to have large, sustained Govt investment in the economy. Precisely the policies that were (wrongly) called "Marxist" at the last election. I'll put a marker down now. Biden is proposing a stimulus package worth a massive 10% of US GDP over the next two years. Sunak is proposing that our equivalent will be only 4% of UK GDP over the next 4 years.I'm happy to have a decent sized charity bet that US growth greatly exceeds ours for the next 3-4 years, and that despite borrowing more money for the stimulus, that growth will put them in a better position to deal with it.
Quote from: big fat yorkshire pudding on April 06, 2021, 06:48:20 pmI think the problem right now is labour don't have any policies.Fair enough, regarding detail.But can you point me in the direction of ANY Opposition that has developed detailed policies three years out from an election and won?
I think the problem right now is labour don't have any policies.
Having one party with such a large majority is no good for the country, I take no joy in the demise of the Labour party but understand why, simplifying it they are supported, run and led by educated idiots constantly pushing their thoughts on utopia which is as far removed from real life as life on Mars.
Not massively helpful Wilts.Your approach seems to have been to uncritically support a leader who took Labour to its worst polling and election results in 100 years (entirely predictable, and predicted well before it happened) then say to the new leadership "your party - your fault if you don't fix it".I do agree that the question is what Starmer stands for. But I fear that question is only being posed so that people can use the answer to beat him with. Because he will not and must not stand for undiluted Corbynism.
Not 'shootin' talking MM, we have had two state elections here amidst covid and the encumbants have romped home especially WA, the thoughts behind this are that the government of the day hogs the airways (so to speak) and the opposition cannot get a word in and that during times of danger, wars, pandemics etc people are reluctant to change horses, and is why many were nervous about trump making a move for the red button.
Starmer apparently struggling in wake of BJ's vaccine 'success' ......... I'm just putting out there folks - don't shoot the messenger... https://digitpatrox.com/starmer-struggles-to-counter-johnsons-vaccine-bounce-as-polls-loom/
Quote from: Metalmicky on April 09, 2021, 09:57:04 amStarmer apparently struggling in wake of BJ's vaccine 'success' ......... I'm just putting out there folks - don't shoot the messenger... https://digitpatrox.com/starmer-struggles-to-counter-johnsons-vaccine-bounce-as-polls-loom/Love that article MM. It reads like it's been written by an AI with learning difficulties."Shadow cupboard" for "shadow cabinet".West Mids mayor "Andy Avenue" (It's Andy Street.)"Social gathering" for "party".But yes I agree that Starmer has major problems. What I'm less sure about is what he can do about it.Back in November, Starmer was consistently warning that the plans to open up for Xmas were dangerous.He was consistently warning that going back to the Tier system in December was dangerous.He was bang on right on both issues, and Johnson's policy decisions on those issues have led directly to an additional 30,000 avoidable deaths.If people still support Johnson, and lazily repeat the "Captain Hindsight" jibe in those circumstances, I'm struggling to think what else can be done. Maybe we deserve Johnson?
This blog piece from the UK's leading professor of macroeconomics goes right to the core of the basic problem Labour has.https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2021/04/labour-should-start-contesting-tory.html?m=1Tl:dr.The Tories have historically been appalling at running the economy, but the public perception is that they are very good and it is Labour that is incompetent.That idea about Labour's supposed incompetence is partly due to a very right wing mass media, but also Labour have been shite for a decade in not countering the line that they were to blame for the 2008-10 crash. Milliband wanted to ignore it. Corbyn basically laid into anything Labour had done pre-2015.Labour has got to start being more aggressive on the economic argument. And they have the example over the Atlantic to point to. Being timid on this subject just will not work.
The point is about how people see the Labour Party thou wilts, rather than focus on the tories people should try and change how labour are seen
My point was more on how the media portrays politicians and politicial stories from the different parties. If you are only getting your news from right-wing press or Tory friendly media outlets then nohing the Labour Party can do will ever change your view of them - because those outlets will only ever portray Labour in bad light. Whilst ignoring corruption in/by the Tories.The current Sunak/Cameron/Greensill story being a prime example.
You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute
Quote from: bpoolrover on April 09, 2021, 01:41:07 pmYou only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minuteMy own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .
Quote from: tyke1962 on April 09, 2021, 05:18:49 pmQuote from: bpoolrover on April 09, 2021, 01:41:07 pmYou only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minuteMy own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity