Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Filo on March 22, 2011, 03:34:55 pm
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Public borrowing £11.8bl a record high for February! despite the spending cuts, where`s it gone Gideon? you can`t roll out the usual labour to blame excuse now!
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:dry: And that's a surprise :dry:
Amazingly unemployment is soaring too and that's before any redundancies in local government ......
:angry:
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This country is well and truely up the shitter, and do the tories care, not in the slightest. As long as their coffers are getting filled they will be happy!!!
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The irony is, putting so many out of work will probably end up increasing the deficit because of the new benefit claimants. And I doubt the private sector will be able to pick up the slack, even if it did want to.
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:dry: And that's a surprise :dry:
Amazingly unemployment is soaring too and that's before any redundancies in local government ......
:angry:
Dont lets forget inflation rising rapidly which will shortly no doubt result in interest rates going up. And don't even mention fcuking fuel prices.
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The irony is, putting so many out of work will probably end up increasing the deficit because of the new benefit claimants. And I doubt the private sector will be able to pick up the slack, even if it did want to.
PRECISELY!
Which is exactly what happened in Japan in the 90s and 00s. After the 1990-1 recession, they were scared about their Govt debt going through the roof. It was then at about 50% of GDP, very similar to ours in 2010. So they set about trying to cut expenditure. But the result was that the economy flat-lined, unemployment went up so dole payment increased, tax income went down because more companies were struggling and the Govt debt actually went UP. Today it stands at about 180% of GDP!!
The economy has stagnated so horrifically that Japan's GDP is now at about the same level as it was in 1995. By contrast, even at the end of a severe recession, by 2010 ours was at about the same level it was at in 2005, and TWICE as high as it was in 1995.
And WE are now well into the first year repeating of the same stupid experiment that has f**ked up Japan for 20 yeaqrs. And remember that they started from a far stronger position than we are doing.
Madness.
It what comes when you think that the ONLY way to reduce debt is to cut, cut cut, and ignore the fact that growing the economy is an equally powerful way of reducing the debt burden. But then that's what happens when you have an economically illiterate failed journalist as Chancellor.
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It isn't too encouraging when your Chancellor dropped out of his economics course because it was too hard, is it?
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It isn't too encouraging when your Chancellor dropped out of his economics course because it was too hard, is it?
Maybe when he said it was too hard, this guy was on the same course
Crispin Blunt (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1307304/Wife-traumatised-Tory-MP-Crispin-Blunt-admits-Im-gay.html)
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The people running the airport must be tories, they got the same mantra!
cut cut cut, instead of concentrating on getting buisness in we run it on a shoestring seeing where we can save pennies here n there,
Then they all sit around wondering why airlines wont come to a run down understaffed facility!
:cry:
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While we're at it can someone explain to me what the point if the Budget is this afternoon. Given that Gideon has spent the last few days leaking everything he's planning to say to the Press.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-politics-12824055
Time was when Parliament was seen as the correct place for politicians to announce crucial decisions to the country. Now it's drip fed to the media to try to shape tomorrow's news agenda.
Back in 1947, Labour Chancellor Hugh Dalton resigned after making a few off the record comments about his upcoming Budget. It was felt that a) he was being disrespectful to Parliament by leaking information that should be presented there and b) he was potentially giving investors a chance to make a killing by knowing beforehand what key financial changes were going to come.
Some chance if having THOSE standards of integrity back eh?
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I've seen blatant profiteering by the petrol stations around Stainforth, Hatfield and Edenthorpe this morning, overnight the price of fuel has risen by a penny a litre, is this so that they can gain from the anticipated cut in fuel duty, thus the price tomorrow will be the same price as yesterday, are they hoping noone notices?
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While we're at it can someone explain to me what the point if the Budget is this afternoon. Given that Gideon has spent the last few days leaking everything he's planning to say to the Press.
Time was when Parliament was seen as the correct place for politicians to announce crucial decisions to the country. Now it's drip fed to the media to try to shape tomorrow's news agenda.
Some chance if having THOSE standards of integrity back eh?
And guess what the *** has for it's headline today ...... £250 cut in tax for some.
The problem is some will see only what they gain while the rest of us struggle to even exist.
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Well, Osbourne can always argue to his critics; Even though it isn't looking good yet, the Conservatives said from the start that it was always going to be a 5 year plan of action. The first budget was to slow down and stop the deficit, this one was to stimulate growth and still keep on terms with the deficit reduction.
Yet again although Growth will be lower than first predicted for next year (by 0.4% lower according to the office of budget responsibility), Osbourne will defend his actions by stating; \"thats for next year, ive got another 3 to turn it round.\"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/23/budget-2011-key-points-at-a-glance
I'm not ashamed to admit that I voted for the Conservatives, and some of the policies have been harsh, but necessary, for example not many people can truly argue with the benefit scheme. At least if they are offered community work it may make the public see their taxes not being 'entirely wasted' http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/07/unemployed-unpaid-work-lose-benefits
That said though I dislike George Osbourne more and more every time I see him, I still think Vince Cable should be chancellor, easily the most intelligent economist of the modern day in this country.
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Croft it wasn't bad until you mentioned Vince Cable, just no.... He's not quite as pathetic as Milliband but some of his mooted ideas were daft.
Thought the budget was fair and actually better than expected, the Corporation tax cut of 2% could turn out a masterstroke in bringing business into the UK. Previous cases of that have had a real effect and it's a trick Ireland used really well. Will certainly see an impact, how big that impact will remain to be seen. Also very good for those on low wages like me who will benefit from the tax personal allowance going up.
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Croft it wasn't bad until you mentioned Vince Cable, just no.... He's not quite as pathetic as Milliband but some of his mooted ideas were daft.
Thought the budget was fair and actually better than expected, the Corporation tax cut of 2% could turn out a masterstroke in bringing business into the UK. Previous cases of that have had a real effect and it's a trick Ireland used really well. Will certainly see an impact, how big that impact will remain to be seen. Also very good for those on low wages like me who will benefit from the tax personal allowance going up.
I'm going on what I read in the Liberal Democrat manifesto, what he wrote about the economy was simply birlliant, his past works inclluding the Storm is a personal faviourite. Since the Coalition however he has become somewhat a bit dim witted.
Fuly agree with what you write about the budget, just a point to consider; 1979, 1980 and 1981 were dreadful for thatcher, it was the last years of her first Parliment that saw her transformation to keep her in power, she stills holds the titles of most unpopular and most popular prime minister since polling began, just because it isn't starting well for the Conservatives, doesn't mean its early enough to predict this whole parliment will be a total disaster.
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Wasn't it the Falklands and the \"splitters\" that caused Labour to lose? and the fact that the Labour manifesto was the most left wing of a major party for years? maybe ever?
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A typical Tory Budget, giving absolutely nothing to the man in the street! giving with one hand whilst snatching back more with the other! A typical example is the 1p reduction in fuel duty, a good headline grabber! but what he fails to mention that in the June budget the VAT rise on fuel duty put 3p onto the price of a litre of petrol!
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Wasn't it the Falklands and the \"splitters\" that caused Labour to lose? and the fact that the Labour manifesto was the most left wing of a major party for years? maybe ever?
Yes it was those that was the pending factors of her first parliment, but then her Economic policy of standing away from the market did pay off (and her refusable attitude to do an Edward Heath and \"U-turn if you want to, the lady's not for turning\") and the economic boom that followed towards the end of her premiership, plus finally the defeat of the miners is what made her premiership remarkable. The 3 biggest triumphs: Faulklands, Economy turn-around and defeat of King Arthur.
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And the destruction of the lives of millions, too...
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Yes the fact of the biggest economic boom in history, and the fact of mortgages were now common to most families up and down the country destroyed the lives of millions.
Yes the poorest in society fell through the gaps and lost a lot in the 80's. But this thread is to focus on the Budget and Tories policies, not the ongoing debate of analysing Thatchers time in office.
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You mean she isn't now? Could've fooled me..
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Wasn't it the Falklands and the \"splitters\" that caused Labour to lose? and the fact that the Labour manifesto was the most left wing of a major party for years? maybe ever?
Yes it was those that was the pending factors of her first parliment, but then her Economic policy of standing away from the market did pay off (and her refusable attitude to do an Edward Heath and \"U-turn if you want to, the lady's not for turning\") and the economic boom that followed towards the end of her premiership, plus finally the defeat of the miners is what made her premiership remarkable. The 3 biggest triumphs: Faulklands, Economy turn-around and defeat of King Arthur.
The only thing remarkable about that bitch, is the fact she`s still breathing1 this country is sat on millions of tons of coal, she succeeded in all but putting a stop to the UK`s production of coal, preferring to import foreign coal instead, the only agenda she had was to avenge the downfall of the Heath government, she and her American crony McGreggor planned the strike well in advance of the Cortonwood announcement, they chose Cortonwood to close first knowing that they would get a walkout in the heartland of the Yorkshire coalfield. They could have chose a pit anywhere in the country, but they did n`t, for one reason, to insigate a strike!
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Increased tax allowance and community work will make no difference (by the way who will oversee it and at what cost???) to me at present. I will still be chasing a dwindling number of jobs, for which I am assured I am overqualified, and trying to survive.
After working since leaving school (including art time while attending university as a mature student) and having just 3 or 4 spells with no work - none of which lasted more than 2 months - I have now been unemployed for 16 months. It's demeaning and demoralising and all the government talk about is families struggling and benefit claimants as a drain.
Ok I'll do 'community work' but how will I find a 'proper job' as there will not be the 5 or 6 hours I spend most days on looking for work and completing pointless and fruitless applications for any job I think I have the slightest chance of getting (ageism is still out there whatever the legislation may say)
I have valuable experience and life experience, know what I want to do and am unable to change things because businesses are not recruiting, and there are going to be many more in the next few weeks when local government emloyees are made redundant.
Ok moan over. Just wish it wasn't International break as well 'cos I don't even get to listen in to a Rovers match this weekend.........
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Community work for benefits is a Tory way of under cutting the minimum wage, it will be exploited to the full by unscrupulous businesses!
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Hidden and glossed over in the Budget
Direct taxes (income tax ni etc) linked to the cpi.
In plain english income tax etc will rise at the rate of inflation so if your \"\"annual\"\" wage rise doesn't go up by the rate of infalation you will be worse off, so people start asking for above inflation wage rises thereby putting more pressure on the economy.
Perhaps the chancellor should have worked harder at Uni
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Hidden and glossed over in the Budget
Direct taxes (income tax ni etc) linked to the cpi.
In plain english income tax etc will rise at the rate of inflation so if your \"\"annual\"\" wage rise doesn't go up by the rate of infalation you will be worse off, so people start asking for above inflation wage rises thereby putting more pressure on the economy.
Perhaps the chancellor should have worked harder at Uni
Pensioners winter fuel payment slashed by £100 and £50 depending on age. Apparantley wasnt in yesterdays bugdet to the nation but he did reveal it whilst in the toilet at 10pm last night
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Last night, it also emerged that pensioners are to lose out on winter fuel “top-up” payments that help them when bills are rising. This means the over-80s will see their payment reduced from £400 to £300. The allowance paid to the over-60s will drop by £50 to £200.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/8403208/Budget-2011-George-Osborne-to-watch-petrol-companies-like-a-hawk.html
Just shows how deceitful the Tory`s are!
They shout from the rooftops how they`ve cut fuel duty by 1p but when you factor the recent VAT rise in, they`ve actually increased fuel duty by 2p I don`t know who they think they are trying to kid!
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The mugs who vote for them.
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This tells all you need to know about shifty Gideon, could n`t lie straight in bed!
http://www.dailyfinance.co.uk/2011/03/25/treasury-tries-to-kill-budget-cost-story/?sms_ss=twitter&at_xt=4d8c600d5c9aa0ae,0
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Surprise, bas**rd surprise.
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I'll tell you another lie that Gideon keeps getting away with repeating.
He says at every opportunity that Labour made up the figures in its economic forecasts and that He, Gideon, can be truted because he's set up the Office for Budget Responsibility to provide the economic prediction figures.
Simple, barefaced lying, as anyone can see for themselves if they check Labour's record for predictions over the last 13 years.
Time and time again, when Labour released predicted figures for economic growth, unemployment and borrowing, the Tories and their lackies in the City howled that the figures were too optimistic. We would go into recession. Everything would go tits up. Francis Maude, the Shadow Chancellor in 1997 predicted that Labour would tip us into recession by 1998. In fact, Labour presided over the longest run without a recession in this country for 130 years. But you don't see the Tories apologising for getting THEIR predictions wrong every single time.
True, Labour's predictions in 2007-08 as the whole world dropped off the cliff were guesswork. Just like everyone elses's were, EVERYWHERE in the world. We were in guesswork territory because no-one had experienced a global financial crisis like this for more than a century.
But think back. In 2008, when Alastair Darling's Budget figures showed just how horribly bad the recession was, he also said that we'd get back to growth by late 2009, and be strongly growing by mid 2010. The Tories and EVERY business think tank screamed \"Liar\" at him. But that was EXACTLY what actually happened. We came out of recession EXACTLY as Labour said we would, as the figures from the ONS in this graph of GDP growth show clearly (and look at what happened to growth after these t**ts took power...)
(http://www.statistics.gov.uk/images/charts/192.gif)
In fact, by mid 2010, the deficit was actually LOWER than Darling had predicted it would be in his budget 2 years earlier. So, far from fiddling the figures to lie about the state of the problem, Labour had actually painted a picture that was WORSE than it turned out.
Now contrast that with the Tories and the OBR. The first boss of the \"independent\" OBR was Sir Alan Budd. He is a right-wing economist who advised Ted Heath's Govt, was a senior economic adviser to Norman Lamont at the time of Black Wednesday (f**king brill eh?) and was chief economic adviser Treasury throughout Major's Government. Independent eh?
I'll tell you how independent he was. In August last year, the OBR leaked figures to Cameron to allow him to answer questions at PM's Question Time. When there was a media stink about this, Budd resigned immediately, saying of course that his resignation was nothing to do with the leak. Of course.
Anyway, back in June 2010, Budd's first OBR prediction was that GDP growth in 2011 would be 2.6%. That would have been a decent growth rate to come out of recession with. But it hasn't happened. We've stalled and the OBR itself is now admitting that the growth this year will be 1.7%. Put that into perspective, it means that the OBR overestimated the size of the growth of UK GDP during this year by about £20billion.
And now the head of the OBR is Robert Chote, who, as a student, was head of the Cambridge Uni Lib Dems society. \"Independent\" eh? And, surprise, surprise, Chote's first OBR report in Autumn last year was that we were growing strongly and that GDP growth for 2010 looked like being 1.8%. He said this, 32 days before the end of the year so the margin of error should have been tiny. In fact, the actual growth rate for 2010 ended up being 1.5% - he overstimated the GDP calc for the year by about £6billion even though the year was almost at an end!
So, remind me again. Which side always gave over-optimistic predictions and which side gave accurate, fair ones?
Independent and Accurate OBR? My pert, athletic, fragrant and depilated arse.
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Thank you Billy. I'm glad to learn that my visceral loathing of that bloody Party and all its cretinous, brain dead, selfish members and supporters has a grounding in fact!
Y'know what? The one thing I have never understood about that Party is how it can claim to be 'Christian' and reprsenting 'Christian values'. Didn't Jesus suggest that the story of the Good Samaritan is how 'Christians' are supposed to act? Jesus, and by implication God, were/are inescapably socialists. That's the message and tone of the entire New Testament. The Tory Party at prayer makes me physically sick.
Cheers
BobG
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...... and the latest news is that MPs have decided the new expenses rules were too severe so have decided they will be relaxed. This allows them to claim more for 'accomodation, travel, and expenses'.
As I recall, although it may have changed at some point, there are no travel expenses when using public transport as they are given travel warrants (just like forces personnel).
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Thank you Billy. I'm glad to learn that my visceral loathing of that bloody Party and all its cretinous, brain dead, selfish members and supporters has a grounding in fact!
Y'know what? The one thing I have never understood about that Party is how it can claim to be 'Christian' and reprsenting 'Christian values'. Didn't Jesus suggest that the story of the Good Samaritan is how 'Christians' are supposed to act? Jesus, and by implication God, were/are inescapably socialists. That's the message and tone of the entire New Testament. The Tory Party at prayer makes me physically sick.
Cheers
BobG
I'm not Christian myself, but that's what I've been arguing for years. It's also rather ironic that Christmas has socialist values, yet capitalists use it t extract as much money as possible from us.
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Thank you Billy. I'm glad to learn that my visceral loathing of that bloody Party and all its cretinous, brain dead, selfish members and supporters has a grounding in fact!
Y'know what? The one thing I have never understood about that Party is how it can claim to be 'Christian' and reprsenting 'Christian values'. Didn't Jesus suggest that the story of the Good Samaritan is how 'Christians' are supposed to act? Jesus, and by implication God, were/are inescapably socialists. That's the message and tone of the entire New Testament. The Tory Party at prayer makes me physically sick.
Cheers
BobG
I'm not Christian myself, but that's what I've been arguing for years. It's also rather ironic that Christmas has socialist values, yet capitalists use it t extract as much money as possible from us.
Used to have this ethic called the sin of usuary.Basically it meant it was wrong to rip off your brethren.Bit like the muslims have now.It got dropped when calvinism reared its ugly head with a work ethis compatible with modern capitalism.This is how the church has survived as a institution by adapting itself to the powers of the day.A million times removed from the original message of Jesus as practiced by the early christians who lived in communes for the first 300 years or so.Tony Ben as a good insight into this perspective in his book arguments for socialism .Occasionally some individuals like mother Teresa ,Francis of Assisi comes along and restores my faith in the Christan message .Ironically it is my upbringing as a catholic coupled with my own experiences that has given me a socialist outlook on life.As my old grandad used to say find your own God and dont let pope or priest stand in your way
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Yes it was those that was the pending factors of her first parliment, but then her Economic policy of standing away from the market did pay off (and her refusable attitude to do an Edward Heath and \"U-turn if you want to, the lady's not for turning\") and the economic boom that followed towards the end of her premiership, plus finally the defeat of the miners is what made her premiership remarkable. The 3 biggest triumphs: Faulklands, Economy turn-around and defeat of King Arthur.
See, that one always gets my goat. The number of times you hear someone trot out \"Oh yeah, she was a bitch but she saved this country's economy.\"
It's b*llocks. This graph is from the Office of National Statistics figures on UK GDP over the last 55 years.
What you'd expect in an economy that grew at a constant rate is a smooth, gradullay increasing curve. Broadly speaking, ignoring the peaks and troughs of booms and recessions that's exactly what's happened since 1955.
Thatcher's time in power is the blue section. Look at the graph and it's clear that the increase in GDP during her time was no better than it had been over the previous 3 decades BEFORE she took power. And there was no long-term step-change AFTER she went either.
(http://i55.tinypic.com/oi54pj.jpg)
What there WAS during her time in power that was unprecedented was:
1) A horrifically deep recession in 80-81 that pretty much wiped out heavy industry in this country.
2) A rebalancing of the economy in the country towards financial services, almost exclusively in the South East.
3) A disastrously uncontrolled boom in 87 and 88 as Thatcher's Govt slashed taxes for the Hooray Henries consumption went beserk and the South East went into warp-drive and the economy grew far too quickly, leading to the inevitable...
4) ...second devastating recession in 90-91.
She categorically did NOT \"turn around\" the economy. What she did was to implement a deranged, fundamentalist right-wing economic experiment that threw the economy into a mad decade of carnage and uncertainty with absolutely NO long term gain.
It's all there on that graph.
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By the way, that graph also shows how crucial it is that we get back to decent growth quickly. The 2008-09 recession was severe - the most severe for 80 years at least. We have a long way to go to get back onto the long-term growth trend. The longer we grow BELOW trend, the worse the long-term hit will be on our economy.
The long-term growth trend is about 2.5-3% per year on average since 1955. That was pretty much exactly the growth rate that Labour had us coming our of recession with. Yes, it meant that reducing the deficit would have taken longer, but that was a balance between growth and deficit cutting.
This lot are ideologically obsessed with cutting the deficit above all else, as quickly and deeply as possible. What they have NOT addressed is what this will do to the growth of the economy. The figures over the last year are not promising, because as the cuts have kicked in, growth has dropped off a cliff and even went into reverse in the winter.
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I suppose this country gets what it deserves. The generic illiteracy, the credulous acceptance of propaganda, the parroting of of messages with an agenda, the inability to do any research at all, the absolute inability of 90% of people to even think, then maybe we are getting what we deserve. Until such times as people actually bother to stop a second, think a minute, we will get ecomonic pygmies like this crowd of cretinms. Dangerous cretins at that too.
And thank you DP. I shall look up Tony Benn's book. Not my favourite politician, but an intelligent one nevertheless. (And as for the Church (Catholic and Protesant) - I despise it/them. The cause of more wars than just about every other cause put together, blown in the wind in pursuit of personal and organisational survival for hundreds of years, avoidance of principle at almost any cost and just about the most corrupt organisation the world has ever seen).
On that subject, hands up everyone who has ever visited the Vatican Museum? A truly breathtaking, astounding, mind blowing display of beauty, of perfection, of idealised endeavaour and achievement. It's truly stunning. And then, after goggling at the serried ranks of Michelangelo's, da Vinci's, Giotto's and God knows what else, step back a minute. Just who paid to have that lot created? And just what good could the Church, the supposed saviour of the common man, do with a planned series of sales over, say, 50 years. There's enough wealth sat doing nowt in that one small little corner of Rome to pay off the entire third world debt. It's an obscenity. It's a blot on humanity.
Cheers
BobG
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The Sistine Chapel is truly breath-taking and just by virtue of the fact that masterpieces of perfection were painted on the ceiling is incredible enough, but the overwhelming-ness of it is surreal. But agree, the greed and vast wealth of Vatican City is truly as you say, a blot on humanity.
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When you go into the Sistme Chapel, it looks pretty ordinary tbh. Not much in there. One tiny little door in the corner. Bit tatty really. Oh yea. There's some paintings on the ceiling. But they didn't take my breath away - at first. The thing that really got me though was when you're up by the altar, looking back towards the door, there's this chuff sitiing on a cloud, in the corner above the door. And I swear to you, I really do, this characters legs are hanging out in space. They are. Really! They're hanging off a fluffy little cloud. You can wander around, change your angle, but his bloody legs are still hanging there.
They're not of course. It's strictly 2 dimensional. But bloody hell! The optical illusion is just bloody immense. It's fan bloody tastic. A brilliant place. I'll let the Church keep that one. Can't really sell it can they? Who'd cart it away?
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Don't remember the dangling legs, :), but I remember getting quite a neck ache from looking up and following the stories depicted up there. Also liked the ceilings in the long hallways leading to the Sistine Chapel, and yes it's kind of small, not much in there, somewhat humid probably purposely or maybe from everyone crowded in there, but once you get the hang of following the sequence of the stories, quite enthralling! Hell and the devil looked quite fun I remember, lol