Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: 5minstogo on April 15, 2012, 01:21:13 pm
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Yesterday afternoon I was just about to cut the grass when the heavens opened. Ordinarily I would have been at the Keepmoat by then enjoying a pre-match beer with a few mates. Circumstances had dictated this year that I couldn't afford the time or money for a season ticket but I had intended to attend as many games as possible.
The whole McKay thing didn't sit right with me. I know a lot of you are/were fully behind it and that's fine. It was a gamble, worth doing? In my opinion no but hey that's football.
Anyway at 2pm I found out it was only £15 a ticket and with a lot of McKay's cronies "injured" I felt I should get behind the players and manager, to see him manage in his own way.
What a start, worth the £15 alone to see that hammer from Copps come off the bar, such confidence after having already terrorised the defence for 10 minutes. Then it all went wrong. 15 minutes in 2-0 up (should have been 4) and Saunders changes the shape. Brings Robert in from wide where he had done some good work and sticks him off top with Browny. Why we changed it when we are on top I don't know.
Second half and you could see the early confidence had gone and I think we looked beat. Fair enough the referee was appalling but we just shouldn't get in these situations.
As soon as Brown went off we had no way of holding the ball up and it just kept coming back. Barnes is no combative midfielder (one tackle aside) and Mussy is no left winger.
At one point late on at 3-2 up JOC went to take a throw from halfway and was told to leave it for Copps to take. Copps had Hayter to aim at and unsurprisingly it came straight back and put us in danger. On halfway why not have two players to throw to in Copps and Hayter?
I'm sure Saunders know's what he is doing in the final third (or knows what he wants to happen) but I'm not sure he knows how to get it there or what to do anywhere else on the pitch. Carey is obviously the defensive coach but I don't have too much positive to say about that position either.
So what to do? Lots out of contract who haven't been good enough for a while. A good opportunity for a new manager to bring in players (within the budget, whatever that will be) and manage. Until yesterday I would have given Saunders a chance but I struggle to find positives other than him being a likeable guy.
Start a fresh now, don't wait til 6 games into the season as that may well be too late......again.
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Start a fresh what?
Fruit stall?
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If you like. Thanks for taking the time to point out my error.
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Interesting post. I agree with you that we would be better off changing manager in the summer. Who would you go for?
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If you like. Thanks for taking the time to point out my error.
Pleasure.
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Thanks Chris, this is where my Masterplan comes to fault. I'm not sure who we should/could/would appoint. Advertise it and see who applies. There would be plenty of time to take careful consideraton and appoint the right person who could work with what we have and identify players that would improve us. I'll take brains over brawn and get back to playing football.
I'm concerned that Saunders isn't going to come good as really there has been no sign. He also appears to have burnt his bridges with a lot of the players.
Who knows.
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The biggest problem is that Saunders has another 2 years left on his deal, and I doubt we can afford to sack him.
He could resign of course, but his talk of late has been about how he hasn't even started doing what he wants yet, so it's unlikely he's going to quit.
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He said his plan will take 3yrs (interesting use of the length of time it will take).
It seems to me from his interview that the McKay experiment (in it's current form) will not be here next season.
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Thanks Chris, this is where my Masterplan comes to fault. I'm not sure who we should/could/would appoint. Advertise it and see who applies. There would be plenty of time to take careful consideraton and appoint the right person who could work with what we have and identify players that would improve us. I'll take brains over brawn and get back to playing football.
I'm concerned that Saunders isn't going to come good as really there has been no sign. He also appears to have burnt his bridges with a lot of the players.
Who knows.
I have to say that your OP would have had a lot more credibility and didn't show your true feelings if you hadn't conveniently avoided mentioning that the first two goals were scored by McKays "cronies"
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Beye has been a very good player for us. I appreciate he's made some howlers, but that's been weighed off by his overall quality performances, his work ethic and his attitude. Now if we can just move him to Doncaster and make him leave France and accept 2-4k per week in L1.
On what I've seen thus far you can ditto Robert as same write up above (apart from the Howlers bit)
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Considering we've only being paying Robert £300 p/w, he must go down as one of the better McKay signings.
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Thanks Chris, this is where my Masterplan comes to fault. I'm not sure who we should/could/would appoint. Advertise it and see who applies. There would be plenty of time to take careful consideraton and appoint the right person who could work with what we have and identify players that would improve us. I'll take brains over brawn and get back to playing football.
I'm concerned that Saunders isn't going to come good as really there has been no sign. He also appears to have burnt his bridges with a lot of the players.
Who knows.
I just don't get how people can say sack Saunders when he's got a 3 yr contract and then can't give any decent affordable replacement names.
I was in favour of the WM plan as it seemed the only way to get us out of the mess we were in, but it didn't work and the reason it didn't work was more or less the same reason we played badly last season - The squad changed week in week out. This year through players coming in not all being match fit. You can't expect to win games when you can't even string a series of passes together.
DS needs to be given a chance. He got the injury list down, but there was very rarely a week when we could play the same squad. He'll get the time in the summer to get his team together and they can gel and more importantly work as a team. I think only then we can judge him. There have been some brilliant games under DS but he doesn't get the credit for those, just the bad ones. :chair:
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Beye has been a very good player for us. I appreciate he's made some howlers, but that's been weighed off by his overall quality performances, his work ethic and his attitude. Now if we can just move him to Doncaster and make him leave France and accept 2-4k per week in L1.
On what I've seen thus far you can ditto Robert as same write up above (apart from the Howlers bit)
£2-4k per week in L1? The average in L1 is £1,400 per week. I don't think the club can afford to be paying above average wages in L1.
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i think alot of rethinking is in order. we do need to keep hold of some players though, Bennett is a MUST!! :scarf:
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i think alot of rethinking is in order. we do need to keep hold of some players though, Bennett is a MUST!! :scarf:
If Bennett is a must then we really are in trouble.
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Thanks Chris, this is where my Masterplan comes to fault. I'm not sure who we should/could/would appoint. Advertise it and see who applies. There would be plenty of time to take careful consideraton and appoint the right person who could work with what we have and identify players that would improve us. I'll take brains over brawn and get back to playing football.
I'm concerned that Saunders isn't going to come good as really there has been no sign. He also appears to have burnt his bridges with a lot of the players.
Who knows.
I have to say that your OP would have had a lot more credibility and didn't show your true feelings if you hadn't conveniently avoided mentioning that the first two goals were scored by McKays "cronies"
Fair enough but me reference to cronies was more aimed at the likes of Diouf, Illunga and Piquionne. I'd probably include Beye in there as well but he has at least shown some integration into the existing squad. I'd have no problems with any agent offering us bright, young talented players like Robert, just not the old "homeless" ones full of self-importance.
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Thanks Chris, this is where my Masterplan comes to fault. I'm not sure who we should/could/would appoint. Advertise it and see who applies. There would be plenty of time to take careful consideraton and appoint the right person who could work with what we have and identify players that would improve us. I'll take brains over brawn and get back to playing football.
I'm concerned that Saunders isn't going to come good as really there has been no sign. He also appears to have burnt his bridges with a lot of the players.
Who knows.
I just don't get how people can say sack Saunders when he's got a 3 yr contract and then can't give any decent affordable replacement names.
I was in favour of the WM plan as it seemed the only way to get us out of the mess we were in, but it didn't work and the reason it didn't work was more or less the same reason we played badly last season - The squad changed week in week out. This year through players coming in not all being match fit. You can't expect to win games when you can't even string a series of passes together.
DS needs to be given a chance. He got the injury list down, but there was very rarely a week when we could play the same squad. He'll get the time in the summer to get his team together and they can gel and more importantly work as a team. I think only then we can judge him. There have been some brilliant games under DS but he doesn't get the credit for those, just the bad ones. :chair:
It's not up to me to decide who should be the replacement or even if there is a decision to be made. My opinion is that we should bite the bullet now (Is Saunders on peanuts too?) rather than get six games into the season and get twitchy. We would look a decent proposition for a new manager who could come in with only a handful of players under contract and knowing exactly what he has to work with.
From what I've seen from Saunders I'm just not convinced he has what we need. We won't have endless star players who know what they have to do, we will have a squad of players who need guidance, tactics and encouragement. Has Saunders shown this so far?
I would argue there have been brilliant results rather than brilliant games but there have been a lot more disappointing ones. I don't have all the answers, just thought I'd have my two penneth worth.
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The biggest problem is that Saunders has another 2 years left on his deal, and I doubt we can afford to sack him.
He could resign of course, but his talk of late has been about how he hasn't even started doing what he wants yet, so it's unlikely he's going to quit.
Yep, not the best move giving out a 3 year contract to an unproven manager was it? I'm convinced that whilst ever Saunders is manager here, his agent will always be hanging around like a bad smell. For this reason, i'd like a new manager in before the new season. Lets advertise & see who applies,as previously posted.
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He hasn't started doing what he wants yet, so how about we let him do him thing and judge him on that and not on what he's been forced with.
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He hasn't started doing what he wants yet, so how about we let him do him thing and judge him on that and not on what he's been forced with.
Not sure I trust him to assemble a new squad,which will probably be necessary. I'm also not convinced that his agents involvement in playing a part in signings will go away, whilst Saunders is here. There is also the fact that key players who have been at the club for a long time don't appear too mpressed with him. Time will tell, but if he does stay I would love to be wrong.
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I'll be very interested to see the comings and goings over the summer although i fear the balance will be in favour of goings.
What will be key to survival (first yardstick) and success next season will be the work made in terms of fitness in pre-season. This is something that just wasn't right under SOD and Saunders has struggled with (no fault of his) since he came in. The fact that Billy had to work hard on conditioning for a month before getting a game speaks volumes.
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people keep saying sack saunders and a bring a new manager in. I am yet to see any suggestions from posters wanting him out. There are couple reasons why we can't sack him:
a) he's on a 3yr contract and hardly going to walk is he now
b)it would cost money to sack him due to the length of his contract
c)paying him off would mean less money for the playing squad and as i understand we don't even have much off one for next season anyway so why waste more money that could be better used elsewhere
:headbang:
:rtid:
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Ok, I understand he's under contract. 3 years. I get it but what happens if we go another 19 games with 1 win?
Do we get relegated next season, saying our hands are tied? Let's face it, a poor start to next season and Deano is gone. I say don't wait, do it now. Yes JR will have to pay him off but I say that's likely at some point anyway.
I don't think we can risk giving Deano a pre-season to reassemble his squad only to find it's still not working. The time is right now and we will be a lot better proposition with prospective managers knowing they have room to bring players in (as I said before, within budget constraints)
I wasn't anti-Saunders or particularly pro-SOD (this season) but I think it is plain to see, he ain't the man for the job. If I'm proved wrong I will gladly let him take a free penalty at my arse in front of the West Stand.
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He hasn't started doing what he wants yet, so how about we let him do him thing and judge him on that and not on what he's been forced with.
Not sure I trust him to assemble a new squad,which will probably be necessary. I'm also not convinced that his agents involvement in playing a part in signings will go away, whilst Saunders is here. There is also the fact that key players who have been at the club for a long time don't appear too mpressed with him. Time will tell, but if he does stay I would love to be wrong.
The sort of players that McKay acts as agent for are hardly going to be looking for a move to a L1 team with little money to spend on wages. With that, and that Saunders seemingly wanting to change the fans opinion of him, I don't feel that McKay will have any say on team matters at Rovers any time soon (fingers crossed).
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Ok, I understand he's under contract. 3 years. I get it but what happens if we go another 19 games with 1 win?
Do we get relegated next season, saying our hands are tied? Let's face it, a poor start to next season and Deano is gone. I say don't wait, do it now. Yes JR will have to pay him off but I say that's likely at some point anyway.
I don't think we can risk giving Deano a pre-season to reassemble his squad only to find it's still not working. The time is right now and we will be a lot better proposition with prospective managers knowing they have room to bring players in (as I said before, within budget constraints)
I wasn't anti-Saunders or particularly pro-SOD (this season) but I think it is plain to see, he ain't the man for the job. If I'm proved wrong I will gladly let him take a free penalty at my arse in front of the West Stand.
Isn't it better to take a risk for the first month or two of the season, rather than shell out hundreds of thousands of pounds of money the club doesn't have? We don't know what sort of manager Saunders is/will be without the McKay experiment. He may turn out to be pretty good.
Danny Wilson was very unpopular when he was first appointed manager at Barnsley (and even more unpopular as a player the previous season). He had no managerial experience before joining Barnsley. The club stuck by him, and he got them into the Premiership within a couple of years. No Barnsley fan saw that coming.
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Being unpopular is a little different to showing ability.
Can you tell me where and how Mr Saunders has shown any ability in managing DRFC?
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Ok, I understand he's under contract. 3 years. I get it but what happens if we go another 19 games with 1 win?
Do we get relegated next season, saying our hands are tied? Let's face it, a poor start to next season and Deano is gone. I say don't wait, do it now. Yes JR will have to pay him off but I say that's likely at some point anyway.
I don't think we can risk giving Deano a pre-season to reassemble his squad only to find it's still not working. The time is right now and we will be a lot better proposition with prospective managers knowing they have room to bring players in (as I said before, within budget constraints)
I wasn't anti-Saunders or particularly pro-SOD (this season) but I think it is plain to see, he ain't the man for the job. If I'm proved wrong I will gladly let him take a free penalty at my arse in front of the West Stand.
Isn't it better to take a risk for the first month or two of the season, rather than shell out hundreds of thousands of pounds of money the club doesn't have? We don't know what sort of manager Saunders is/will be without the McKay experiment. He may turn out to be pretty good.
Danny Wilson was very unpopular when he was first appointed manager at Barnsley (and even more unpopular as a player the previous season). He had no managerial experience before joining Barnsley. The club stuck by him, and he got them into the Premiership within a couple of years. No Barnsley fan saw that coming.
I think Saunders has had his chance. Sadly with probably the most talented squad we will ever have access to. 1 win in 19 is awful with the quality we have had (regardless of the circumstances)
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Being unpopular is a little different to showing ability.
Can you tell me where and how Mr Saunders has shown any ability in managing DRFC?
Two things...
1. Danny Wilson had no experience, and so no-one knew if he had ability. He certainly didn't have ability as a player!
2. Nobody knows what ability Saunders will have at Rovers when McKay and his players are not on the scene. The only ability we have seen is how Saunders deals with all of the off-field issues that are out of his control - and those issues would have handicapped the best, and most experienced, managers out there.
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How many players has Deano used this season? A lot. He did the same at Wrexham as I understand. I think it's more luck than judgement that got Wrexham to where they were when he left. We can't risk being left with new players under new (probably 2/3 year) contracts only to find Deano isn't the man.
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Ok, I understand he's under contract. 3 years. I get it but what happens if we go another 19 games with 1 win?
Do we get relegated next season, saying our hands are tied? Let's face it, a poor start to next season and Deano is gone. I say don't wait, do it now. Yes JR will have to pay him off but I say that's likely at some point anyway.
I don't think we can risk giving Deano a pre-season to reassemble his squad only to find it's still not working. The time is right now and we will be a lot better proposition with prospective managers knowing they have room to bring players in (as I said before, within budget constraints)
I wasn't anti-Saunders or particularly pro-SOD (this season) but I think it is plain to see, he ain't the man for the job. If I'm proved wrong I will gladly let him take a free penalty at my arse in front of the West Stand.
Isn't it better to take a risk for the first month or two of the season, rather than shell out hundreds of thousands of pounds of money the club doesn't have? We don't know what sort of manager Saunders is/will be without the McKay experiment. He may turn out to be pretty good.
Danny Wilson was very unpopular when he was first appointed manager at Barnsley (and even more unpopular as a player the previous season). He had no managerial experience before joining Barnsley. The club stuck by him, and he got them into the Premiership within a couple of years. No Barnsley fan saw that coming.
I think Saunders has had his chance. Sadly with probably the most talented squad we will ever have access to. 1 win in 19 is awful with the quality we have had (regardless of the circumstances)
There has been a big problem in the "experiment" that has frustrated me. We have had some great, individual players - players who were good in the Premiership when playing with 10 other great Premiership players. Put a few great players into a team with 5 or 7 Championship/League 1 quality players, and you soon see the McKay players struggle. Diouf is the best example of this. He keeps the ball for way too long, and invariably gets tackled - because he can't find anyone else to pass too. The "old" squad are not thinking the same way as him, and that has caused us problems on too many occasions this season. The same with Beye. He's made some mistakes this season but sometimes it is because he has been trying to mark all of the opposition because of mistakes from his fellow centre back.
The "old" squad are never going to be the same standard as the McKay players, and you can't coach the McKay players to stop being so good. There are two, very different standards of players currently at the club - the McKay players and the "old" squad. This is why any manager would have struggled this season.
In business there is a saying that everyone works to the lowest common denominator. At Rovers we have a couple of players who are mediocre and the whole team is being brought down to the mediocre level.
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Yesterday afternoon I was just about to cut the grass when the heavens opened. Ordinarily I would have been at the Keepmoat by then enjoying a pre-match beer with a few mates. Circumstances had dictated this year that I couldn't afford the time or money for a season ticket but I had intended to attend as many games as possible.
The whole McKay thing didn't sit right with me. I know a lot of you are/were fully behind it and that's fine. It was a gamble, worth doing? In my opinion no but hey that's football.
Anyway at 2pm I found out it was only £15 a ticket and with a lot of McKay's cronies "injured" I felt I should get behind the players and manager, to see him manage in his own way.
What a start, worth the £15 alone to see that hammer from Copps come off the bar, such confidence after having already terrorised the defence for 10 minutes. Then it all went wrong. 15 minutes in 2-0 up (should have been 4) and Saunders changes the shape. Brings Robert in from wide where he had done some good work and sticks him off top with Browny. Why we changed it when we are on top I don't know.
Second half and you could see the early confidence had gone and I think we looked beat. Fair enough the referee was appalling but we just shouldn't get in these situations.
As soon as Brown went off we had no way of holding the ball up and it just kept coming back. Barnes is no combative midfielder (one tackle aside) and Mussy is no left winger.
At one point late on at 3-2 up JOC went to take a throw from halfway and was told to leave it for Copps to take. Copps had Hayter to aim at and unsurprisingly it came straight back and put us in danger. On halfway why not have two players to throw to in Copps and Hayter?
I'm sure Saunders know's what he is doing in the final third (or knows what he wants to happen) but I'm not sure he knows how to get it there or what to do anywhere else on the pitch. Carey is obviously the defensive coach but I don't have too much positive to say about that position either.
So what to do? Lots out of contract who haven't been good enough for a while. A good opportunity for a new manager to bring in players (within the budget, whatever that will be) and manage. Until yesterday I would have given Saunders a chance but I struggle to find positives other than him being a likeable guy.
Start a fresh now, don't wait til 6 games into the season as that may well be too late......again.
Great post, until yesterday I thought exactly the same, I actually like Saunders as a guy, willing to do well, enthusiastic, but, & it's a big but, his tactics & substitutions are naive & baffling. Yesterday proved this for me, 2-0 in front against what was with respect a poor Portsmouth side, we actually gifted them the initiative for the rest of the half possession wise, giving them belief when they should have been dead & buried. They had to chase the game, & we let them, & we let them, & we let them. Now if we were a side who could keep the ball once we got it then fair enough, but we're not. Passing wise we really are shocking, far poorer than Pompey, we look like a team that hasn't a clue what each other are supposed to be doing, or where to play. Bringing on Dumbuya was a joke for me, clearly unfit, & not a clue where to play.
The referee got the attention yesterday & rightly so, but we need to look at the big picture & see there has been no improvement performance wise since Dean took over, create more chances admitted, but we are all over the place & easy pickings for any decent organised side. Did not expect us to stay up after the start we had, but we really should at least be showing some signs of improvement, organisation & teamwork. Not seen any yet.
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people keep saying sack saunders and a bring a new manager in. I am yet to see any suggestions from posters wanting him out. There are couple reasons why we can't sack him:
a) he's on a 3yr contract and hardly going to walk is he now
b)it would cost money to sack him due to the length of his contract
c)paying him off would mean less money for the playing squad and as i understand we don't even have much off one for next season anyway so why waste more money that could be better used elsewhere
:headbang:
:rtid:
The name I would put in the hat is Glynn Snodin, and yes I am aware of his involvement before with his brother.
One thing this would do if he decided to take it on would bring the Rovers supporters back on side and singing from the same hymn sheet.
We can get rid of Dean, other clubs have done it and if we continue on this losing run then I think there will be a lot more calling for his head. - this is where we went wrong when the decision was made to get rid of SOD.
Dean should have been offered a simple keep us in the Championship and you will get an extended contract take it or leave it.
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Unless you want all the old guard to leave and for Saunders to bring in many dozens of new players (which we don't have the money for) then we need to get rid of him as soon as possible. Without the old guard as the core of the team next season we will get relegated again.
The old guard won't play for him. They don't respect him. They think he's clueless. They've been proved right. He's been useless this season and does not deserve another chance.
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Without the old guard as the core of the team next season we will get relegated again.
Please name the old guard you are refer to and those you want to keep.
Go on, tell us the core of the team that will keep us up.
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Please name the old guard you are refer to and those you want to keep.
Go on, tell us the core of the team that will keep us up.
I would have thought it was obvious who needs to stay. If you don't know without me having to spell it out then you need to start going to more games. It seems you think the lot should go as you've fallen for the argument that they're all crap and it's their fault we've gone down.
One thing I'll say for Saunders, he's done a good job in convincing a lot of fans it's not his fault and all the blame can be laid at the door of the old guard. Those of us with a bit of common sense can see through this straight away but unfortunately too many of you have fallen for it and so he continues as manager. Wise up and lets get rid of him now before he does any more damage.
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It's strange how some people want to blame the old guard all the time, these players helped keep us on the championship for 4 years and before injuries struck last season had us approaching the top 6 in the table.
It's quite simple really, we sacked an experienced manager who the players respected and brought in a football agent and his mate to run the club, that's why we're down.
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It completely dumbfounds me that some people still refuse to acknowledge or accept that DS came as part of WM's plan.
JR's never going to admit it, publically at least, while he's chairman because that would involve him going back on what he said at the time about identifying DS and what he did at Wrexham. WM tried this at Wrexham while DS was manager, he needed someone he knew would go along with the plan. Name me another manager who would accept what WM was proposing? I don't think JR was left with any choice in appointing DS, let alone choose him.
DS has never been, and never will be, the right man for my club. He is too closely associated with everything that has been rotten about this season, which seriously makes me question his values and suitably for my club at a time when it needs its heart restoring.
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It completely dumbfounds me that some people still refuse to acknowledge or accept that DS came as part of WM's plan.
JR's never going to admit it, publically at least, while he's chairman because that would involve him going back on what he said at the time about identifying DS and what he did at Wrexham. WM tried this at Wrexham while DS was manager, he needed someone he knew would go along with the plan. Name me another manager who would accept what WM was proposing? I don't think JR was left with any choice in appointing DS, let alone choose him.
DS has never been, and never will be, the right man for my club. He is too closely associated with everything that has been rotten about this season, which seriously makes me question his values and suitably for my club at a time when it needs its heart restoring.
All maIt completely dumbfounds me that some people still refuse to acknowledge or accept that DS came as part of WM's plan.
JR's never going to admit it, publically at least, while he's chairman because that would involve him going back on what he said at the time about identifying DS and what he did at Wrexham. WM tried this at Wrexham while DS was manager, he needed someone he knew would go along with the plan. Name me another manager who would accept what WM was proposing? I don't think JR was left with any choice in appointing DS, let alone choose him.
DS has never been, and never will be, the right man for my club. He is too closely associated with everything that has been rotten about this season, which seriously makes me question his values and suitably for my club at a time when it needs its heart restoring.
Using that argument then we should get rid of JR and the board of directors, as it was them who introduced everything that "has been rotten about this season"?
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No but they should at least hold their hands up, admit they got it wrong and move on in the right way to give us a club to be proud of again. Of course the only problem with that is that two of the band of three are no longer involved leaving JR to pick up the pieces on his own.
I don't care what he says in the media, JR is one of us and privately it must have killed him inside to see what has happened to the club he has been so proud of for the past 10 years. Do you think he will be happy about or nonplussed by seeing pictures of Diouf wearing the Rovers shirt in stories associated with a serious nightclub allegation? He will be as embarrassed as the rest of us.
For a decade people have only spoken in positive, albeit sometimes patronising, terms about our club. We were the pub team having a laugh and we loved constantly proving people wrong. That has been taken away from us this season.
The undertones of articles in the national papers tells us how much people have wanted to see the experiment fail. People have been exclaiming how sorry they feel for the Rovers fans for getting caught up in this. Our reputation has gone through the ringer due to our association with a certain agent and an ill-judged gamble to stay in the Championship.
I would rather we had got relegated with our heart still intact than now have 'the experiment' the first thing people think of when they hear the name 'Doncaster Rovers'.