I think your 'we shouldn't be passing on debt' is most apt, just ashame that that is exactly what they're doing.
Two years in power, two times in recession!
As forecast by so many, the austerity measures are not working and have choked the living daylights out of the economy!
No royal wedding to blame, no severe weather to blame, who or what are they going to blame next! Two years of butchery or no bearing fruit for the Tories! t**ts the lot of em!
At least unemployment isn't the highest it's been in 18 years. Oh, wait a min...
Weren't Labour in power at the time of the last recession.....
QuoteI think your 'we shouldn't be passing on debt' is most apt, just ashame that that is exactly what they're doing.
Who was it that introduced tuition fees? Oh yes, I remember, it was Labour! Whose fault is it that we've run out of money and now owe a vast fortune? Oh yes, I remember that was down to Labour too! Whose fault is it that tuition fees have had to rise? Yes once again we find it is Labour to blame.
It would be nice if there weren't any tuition fees but when we are borrowed up to our eyeballs then I'm afraid that thanks to Labour if you want a university education you are going to have to contribute.
Another example of Labour's debt burden being passed on to our children and our children's children.
However being a 'Times reader' I do recall an article some 18 years ago extolling the virtues of the British Pension set up which at that time was £600 Billion in the black and the envy of all Europe, non of the other member states having any funds stashed away at all!.
The same article then went on to warn that the new labour Government intended to increase the size of the public sector workforce by over 40% and that this would put a great deal of pressure on the Public sectors ability to pay pensions in the future!!
The same article also warned about Labours plans to raid the private pension schemes to fund these non jobs.
They did do and we all know what the outcome has been.
If you mean the first recession that was caused by the global banking crisis that was out of Britains hands, yes. It was at the same time as the US, Japan and Germany, none of which are facing a double-dip recession.
QuoteIf you mean the first recession that was caused by the global banking crisis that was out of Britains hands, yes. It was at the same time as the US, Japan and Germany, none of which are facing a double-dip recession.
Mr Frost is right. The mistakes were made long before the banking crisis. This crisis merely exacerbated the situation. Who failed to regulate the banks? Yes that was Labour. Gordon Brown believed in 'light touch regulation'. What a monumental mistake. He gave the FSA control of the banks when they were patently not set up to carry out this duty.
Whichever way you look at it Labour (and Gordon Brown in particular) were grossly incompetent.
But it is this Government that is giving £50Billion of our money to the IMF!! Chuffing unbelievable!!
You might want to ask yourself who De-regulated them in the first place?
How did Labour manage to bankrupt the entire western world?
Tuition fees were Majors brainchild for starters. He was voted out before he could implement it. Yes Labour (like gimps) brought it in and should have stopped it there and then (as the party of the so called working class).
Labour had a rate of £1k
The Tory's soon oiked that up to £3k. In your words 'they did this to pay for Labours debt'. That is a pathetic statement. What they have done is butcher the working class kids to pay for debt that's been around a long time and to keep the rich rich.
You said 'it would be nice to pay for tuition'. That's at last something sensible you've said. Let's give all the kids a fair chance, eh?
It is extreme folly to think that the way to solve a gigantic debt problem is to borrow even more money.
QuoteIf you mean the first recession that was caused by the global banking crisis that was out of Britains hands, yes. It was at the same time as the US, Japan and Germany, none of which are facing a double-dip recession.
Mr Frost is right. The mistakes were made long before the banking crisis. This crisis merely exacerbated the situation. Who failed to regulate the banks? Yes that was Labour. Gordon Brown believed in 'light touch regulation'. What a monumental mistake. He gave the FSA control of the banks when they were patently not set up to carry out this duty.
Whichever way you look at it Labour (and Gordon Brown in particular) were grossly incompetent.
You might want to ask yourself who De-regulated them in the first place?
Who said Labour were going to borrow more money? What they were proposing is smaller, sustainable cuts over a longer period of time.
The question surely is: how can you pay of a national debt by increasing unemployment and reducing tax income?
We need to harden up and take the austerity measures and start to live within our means.
Takes one to know one about falling for bullshit! I've lived within my means all my working life, like many millions of others. The Torys, however, are now making it virtually impossible to do so! My pay is frozen, inflation means Im earning less, it costs more to get to work, energy prices are on the up, my weekly shop costs more, and you have the audacity to suggest I should be living within my means!
I'm going to have to stop you there yooofQuoteTuition fees were Majors brainchild for starters. He was voted out before he could implement it. Yes Labour (like gimps) brought it in and should have stopped it there and then (as the party of the so called working class).
Labour had a rate of £1k
The Tory's soon oiked that up to £3k. In your words 'they did this to pay for Labours debt'. That is a pathetic statement. What they have done is butcher the working class kids to pay for debt that's been around a long time and to keep the rich rich.
You said 'it would be nice to pay for tuition'. That's at last something sensible you've said. Let's give all the kids a fair chance, eh?
You need to check your economic history. Labour always without fail overspend wildly. They always leave behind a huge financial mess for the Tories to clear up. When they try and sort things out all we ever hear from Labour supporters is that the solution is to spend (and waste) even more money that they haven't got.
It is extreme folly to think that the way to solve a gigantic debt problem is to borrow even more money.
I've got a good game.
Let's post non-facts. Let people correct you. Let's not acknowledge you were wrong. Let's simply continue to post the same shite and steer every answer to the same shite, thus avoiding the wrong bits.
It's at this point CR decided to withdraw from this debate.
I'm going to have to stop you there yooofQuoteTuition fees were Majors brainchild for starters. He was voted out before he could implement it. Yes Labour (like gimps) brought it in and should have stopped it there and then (as the party of the so called working class).
Labour had a rate of £1k
The Tory's soon oiked that up to £3k. In your words 'they did this to pay for Labours debt'. That is a pathetic statement. What they have done is butcher the working class kids to pay for debt that's been around a long time and to keep the rich rich.
You said 'it would be nice to pay for tuition'. That's at last something sensible you've said. Let's give all the kids a fair chance, eh?
You need to check your economic history. Labour always without fail overspend wildly. They always leave behind a huge financial mess for the Tories to clear up. When they try and sort things out all we ever hear from Labour supporters is that the solution is to spend (and waste) even more money that they haven't got.
It is extreme folly to think that the way to solve a gigantic debt problem is to borrow even more money.
I've got a good game.
Let's post non-facts. Let people correct you. Let's not acknowledge you were wrong. Let's simply continue to post the same shite and steer every answer to the same shite, thus avoiding the wrong bits.
It's at this point CR decided to withdraw from this debate.
We can't provide enough jobs for the unemployed, soon we won't be able to afford petrol for our cars, will struggle to buy enough food to feed our familys, the list could go on!!
But old Gideon & Cameron are two of the worst and simply have no idea how a normal working class person lives due to their upbringing! They can sit up in their castles under their pots of money!! Without a care in the world!!
We can't provide enough jobs for the unemployed, soon we won't be able to afford petrol for our cars, will struggle to buy enough food to feed our familys, the list could go on!!
But old Gideon & Cameron are two of the worst and simply have no idea how a normal working class person lives due to their upbringing! They can sit up in their castles under their pots of money!! Without a care in the world!!
Agreed.
Why are the Tories not getting rid of these 'Non Jobs' then ans instead threatening the jobs of essential services such as care for adults with severe learning difficulites.
Its alright the Tosser in this thread saying 'everyone should live within their means', Ive took a 3% cut this year and my Pension scheme has closed, my Partner at DMBC is about to be hit with a 2% cut. These Tory bas**rds have more or less stripped our Tax credits to nothing whilst giving the great unwashed a 5% rise in their benefits.
I do live within our means, we've never asked for anything from the state, we have never claimed benefits...Id like mjdgreg to explain how we continue to do so when we had no disposable income anyway and that has now we've been hit by cuts.
This Government doesnt give a flying one about middle england, the bread and butter of this nation, its cares solely about the top 10-15%.
Shortly they may have to find themselves housing me, providing my kids with free school meals and I'll grind out every feasible benefit I can claim - Im entitled to it, Ive paid my share of Tax and National Insurance over the years, but, as thing stand, I'll be better of resigning along with our lass, default on the mortgage and, having two young girls, I already know the Council will have to house us.
if you studying something worthwile then the tuitions fees shouldent put anyone off. it is the people who go and study stupid subjects who will have to face up to the real world a bit sooner education educastion and then some more education is just delaying the inevatable of actually having to get a job and having to work hard. at my work we've had people applying for minimum wage jobs who have degrees in english language and history and i would be there boss and i left school at 15 what a waste of time
You need to check your economic history. Labour always without fail overspend wildly. They always leave behind a huge financial mess for the Tories to clear up.
if you studying something worthwile then the tuitions fees shouldent put anyone off. it is the people who go and study stupid subjects who will have to face up to the real world a bit sooner education educastion and then some more education is just delaying the inevatable of actually having to get a job and having to work hard. at my work we've had people applying for minimum wage jobs who have degrees in english language and history and i would be there boss and i left school at 15 what a waste of time
You voted Tory did n`t you?
Not so Dave, that might happen in the Daily Mail world, but in real life, they would say you have made yourself unemployed... No benefit for x ammount of weeks....
you've defaulted on the mortgage.. Once again you have deliberately made yourself homeless... That puts you at the bottom of the housing list, when you move up a little you just might get into seperate hostels or B&B's....
o be fair you posted a non fact saying that the Tories hiked tuition fees to 3,000 quid. That's wrong it was Labour who did that whilst also cutting the money available for students whilst in university. I'd much prefer the new system even though fees are much higher. More assistance while at uni (when you need it most) and paying it back at a higher level. Under the fee period I went in at I pay back some of my loan on the wage I'm on now. Under the Tories new method I wouldn't be paying anything back at the moment. Labour were for the working class when it suited them. I went through uni with 2 jobs whilst my friends had none because their richer parents paid for them. I was entitled to the same amount of money as my friends who got money from parents (which barely covered my rent let alone anything else). I've no issue with that it's fine, but for labour to say they helped out poorer students is ludicrous they didn't.
As for the double dip well it is that, and perhaps it was somewhat inevitable. Realistically given the cuts in government spending that was going to have an impact (government spending forms part of the calculation). Labour wouldn't have seen this becuase they'd have kept spending up right now and thus artificially shown growth in the economy. What they forget is we have to start cutting becuase we spend far more than we have. Just look at their proposal of cutting VAT. They state that would allow for growth and still yield similar values to the treasury. Simply put it wouldn't. The amount of growth required to generate the same value of funding is nigh on impossible.
Look at Milliband on the higher tax bracket, he's well against it now, but when asked if he would implement it if he was in power his answer - well we'd have to look at it at the time. HE wouldn't state that because he knows he simply couldn't do it. It's all very easy to say you disagree with what's happening Ed, but what would you do? The times of unlimited spending will end and I'm yet to see how Labour can deal with that.
if you studying something worthwile then the tuitions fees shouldent put anyone off. it is the people who go and study stupid subjects who will have to face up to the real world a bit sooner education educastion and then some more education is just delaying the inevatable of actually having to get a job and having to work hard. at my work we've had people applying for minimum wage jobs who have degrees in english language and history and i would be there boss and i left school at 15 what a waste of time
Why are the Tories not getting rid of these 'Non Jobs' then ans instead threatening the jobs of essential services such as care for adults with severe learning difficulites.
Its alright the Tosser in this thread saying 'everyone should live within their means', Ive took a 3% cut this year and my Pension scheme has closed, my Partner at DMBC is about to be hit with a 2% cut. These Tory bas**rds have more or less stripped our Tax credits to nothing whilst giving the great unwashed a 5% rise in their benefits.
I do live within our means, we've never asked for anything from the state, we have never claimed benefits...Id like mjdgreg to explain how we continue to do so when we had no disposable income anyway and that has now we've been hit by cuts.
This Government doesnt give a flying one about middle england, the bread and butter of this nation, its cares solely about the top 10-15%.
Shortly they may have to find themselves housing me, providing my kids with free school meals and I'll grind out every feasible benefit I can claim - Im entitled to it, Ive paid my share of Tax and National Insurance over the years, but, as thing stand, I'll be better of resigning along with our lass, default on the mortgage and, having two young girls, I already know the Council will have to house us.
QuoteHow did Labour manage to bankrupt the entire western world?
No-one is claiming this. Gordon was quite happy just to bankrupt the UK.
Something of a coincidence that all the western nations had incompetent governments at the same time as the global financial collapse, isn't it?
In 2007, before the world economy fell off a cliff and EVERY major Western country's debt sky-rocketed, Labour had a debt-to GDP ratio lower than at any time since before the First World War, other than for a brief spell at the end of the 80s (and THAT didn't last).
I dont know or care about politics but i just want to say, if i was a woman i would marry mjdgreg!! Obviously a man of his knowledge, good looks and charisma would be well out of my league though.
Carry on as you were
QuoteSomething of a coincidence that all the western nations had incompetent governments at the same time as the global financial collapse, isn't it?
I think you'll find that not all western nations have suffered a financial catastrophe. Only the ones with a similar spend spend spend ethos like the previous Labour government. I'm afraid, (unlike me) you have provided a non fact.
The problem is debt but there is far, far more private debt than public. Total debt is something like 500% GDP isn't it? The largest part of that is held by financial institutions. That's a result of lax financial regs, which all these centrist governments have allowed.
Growth is the only solution but I'm afraid we won't be seeing that.
QuoteThe problem is debt but there is far, far more private debt than public. Total debt is something like 500% GDP isn't it? The largest part of that is held by financial institutions. That's a result of lax financial regs, which all these centrist governments have allowed.
Growth is the only solution but I'm afraid we won't be seeing that.
A very sensible post. Unlike you, silly Billy always ignores private debt when he tries to paint Labour as competent
But the Conservatives wouldn't have done much different. They were always pushing for lighter regulation. They largely endorsed Labours spending plans.
This crisis has been a longtime in the making and I blame both parties equally.
Running a home, paying full rent and council tax on just over £700 a month isn't best fun, but we have a roof over our heads and food on the table.
QuoteBut the Conservatives wouldn't have done much different. They were always pushing for lighter regulation. They largely endorsed Labours spending plans.
This crisis has been a longtime in the making and I blame both parties equally.
Labour inherited a sound economy from the Tories all those years ago. If the Tories could have held onto power, I think we would be far better placed now than we are after 13 years of Labour misrule.
When in opposition they did partly endorse Labour's spending plans, but ultimately Labour have to take the blame as they were the ones in power. It is far too early to start blaming the current government because it will take many years to get over Labour's profligacy (if we ever do).
We can never know. I strongly suspect things wouldn't have been much different given the conservatives laid the foundations with the big bang and there enthusiasm for light regulation. And given the experience of other countries, such as the USA who had republican governments throughout the great boom.
QuoteWe can never know. I strongly suspect things wouldn't have been much different given the conservatives laid the foundations with the big bang and there enthusiasm for light regulation. And given the experience of other countries, such as the USA who had republican governments throughout the great boom.
The Tories haven't been brilliant but Labour have been a total disaster. On the balance of their previous records I have concluded that the Tories are the lesser of the two evils.
The Tories are not interested in us up North simple as, I am sure given half the chance they would happily put up a big wall half way down the country and leave us to fend for ourselves!
Here is an excellent blog pointing out the differences in the previous Labour and Tory government. All you youngsters that can't remember the previous Tory government take note and ignore all the Ed Balls bullshit.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100153640/a-recession-made-in-downing-street/
Nice to see some things never change!
I'm not really one who agrees with comparisons of debt to GDP ratios.
The only good thing that will come of all this economy screwing madness that our corrupt posh boys insist on seeing through, even though they can now see the double dip is fact (but anyone else with half a brain could see coming from miles away), is that they're making themselves un-electable for the next general election. All we need now is Ed to grow a pair and start ripping our Tory friends to pieces like they deserve, and they're done for.
QuoteI'm not really one who agrees with comparisons of debt to GDP ratios.
I agree. To say that Labour didn't overspend wildly just because you can produce graphs about GDP ratios is very simplistic and a gross distortion of the truth.
QuoteI'm not really one who agrees with comparisons of debt to GDP ratios.
I agree. To say that Labour didn't overspend wildly just because you can produce graphs about GDP ratios is very simplistic and a gross distortion of the truth. The fact that they left every household in the country with an extra £50,000 of debt by the time they had been in power up until April 2008 is far more meaningful and paints the true picture.
Of course there was then the global banking crisis on top of that just to rub salt into an already serious wound. This then turned a very serious situation into a total catastrophe for which we are all going to have to pay, for a very long time indeed.
% of UK debt held by financial institutions. For those of you who blame Gordon Brown and not the global financial collapse.
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/04/World%20debt%20to%20GDP.jpg
You know you're making yourself look a bit of a prat don't you?
You're presented with facts, and all you do is tell people they "look silly" (???) and tell them they're wrong but present no counter-facts or argument?
Not sure which "other countries" he's talking about. But it certainly isn't Germany, France, Italy, Austria, Netherlands etc,
mjdgreg
Once again, you ignore facts and prefer to quote opinions that suit your own.
Hannan is a anti-state fundamentalist who believes that Govt spending is inherently wrong. So of course he's going to write a blog like that. Trouble is, in his rush to pour out his bile, he repeats fundamental and demonstrable mistruths. I don;t expect you to pick up on them. But for the record, anyone else can check for themselves.
For example, Hannan says:
"While other countries were using the good years to build up surpluses, he [Brown] spent more, taxed more and borrowed more."
Not sure which "other countries" he's talking about. But it certainly isn't Germany, France, Italy, Austria, Netherlands etc,
YOU posted a link to someone who said that Brown should have paid down the debt "in the good times" to avoid the disaster that we've had.
I forgot the most glaring example of all. Spain halved their Govt debt as a proportion of GDP between 200 and 2007. Big f***ing help that is now to the 52% of 16-25 year olds who are on the dole in Spain.
And, bearing in mind that the 07-09 global catastrophe was FAR deeper than either the 80s or the 90s recessions, look at how the last Govt's spending nipped that in the bud and stopped unemployment steepling to 12-15% or more. That's real people's lives being changed there mjdgreg.
Anyone who really wants to work can either find a job or make one for themselves if they're prepared to take a bit of responsibility instead of relying on government borrowing to bail them out.
Anyone who really wants to work can either find a job or make one for themselves if they're prepared to take a bit of responsibility instead of relying on government borrowing to bail them out.
Everyone should go out and make a job for themselves? I'll presume by the tenuous, throwaway comment you mean everyone out of work should go into self-employment? Does that include the low-skilled workers who have just been made redundant, or youngsters fresh out of education, both with no start-up capital or experience, who the majority of lenders would steer well clear of? You're deluded.
What is it you do for a living Mick?
Everyone should go out and make a job for themselves? I'll presume by the tenuous, throwaway comment you mean everyone out of work should go into self-employment? Does that include the low-skilled workers who have just been made redundant, or youngsters fresh out of education, both with no start-up capital or experience, who the majority of lenders would steer well clear of? You're deluded.
What is it you do for a living mjdgreg?
he's an economist obviously
Quotehe's an economist obviously
You're a socialist obviously.
Am I the only one to see the irony of mjdgreg making his money from the property boom that was created by Mr Brown and the growth of unsustainable debt by a skewed housing market that encouraged people to borrow as prices would rise year on year.
apparently I'm an un-employed socialist on benefits now
If only there was such a thing as a Socialist anymore.
QuoteIf only there was such a thing as a Socialist anymore.
I wish you were right. Socialists have held this country back for far too long. Too many people wanting to have an easy life at the expense of others is never good for an economy.
oh dear, you really don't know what you are talking about do you?
More evidence of Labour incompetency and where the real blame lies for our current economic woes (article on the left).
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/
I can't be arsed to involve myself in debate because you just don't seem to want to know anything but your tripe, but the Times are hardly known for their lack of bias, now are they?..