Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: mjdgreg on August 01, 2012, 11:14:08 am
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No. There are plenty more that could claim that accolade before him. Just because you've got the most medals doesn't make you the greatest. The greatest is without doubt Muhammad Ali.
What he went on to achieve in the sport of boxing will never ever be surpassed. Even to this day he still displays his greatness the way he confronts his Parkinson's disease. He isn't just the greatest Olympian of all time, he is the greatest athlete that has ever lived or that will ever live.
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Fully agree on what you say about Ali, true hero... Nuff' said!
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Muhammad Ali isn't the greatest Olympian of all time, not for me. He won one gold medal one time. His career after that in boxing is unparallelled, you won't find me arguing there but to call him the greatest Olympian of all time because of what he achieved outside of the Olympics. Under that logic you could say Ryan Giggs is one of the greatest Olympians of all time...which he certainly isn't.
I don't think you could say one person is anyway. Phelps has the most medals sure, but he competes in a sport where he can win 7-8 at each games, whereas most can only win one or two.
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No....whilst not trying to demean his achievements, there are far more opportunities to win medals in the pool.
As for who IS...well I can't answer that
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If you're only going to judge it on what has been achieved at Olympic Games then I would give the vote to German Birgit Fischer who won eight gold medals, over six different Olympic Games, even having missed the Los Angeles Games entirely because of the Eastern Bloc boycott.
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...and everyone knows it's a doddle to win 7 golds in 7 days during an olympic games... :facepalm:
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Here's a name you probably wont have heard of, Betty Robinson, the first woman to win an athletics medal when she won the 100m in Amsterdam 1928. In 1931 she was involved in plane crash - and pronounced dead by the rescuers. It was only when they took her to the mortuary that it was discovered she was only in a coma. She spent another seven months in the coma, another six in a wheelchair, and a year just learning to walk again. She recovered so well that in 1936 she was able to qualify for the American team again, although she couldn't kneel down properly to take part in the 100m - only the relay. The Americans were in second place when the German team dropped the baton on the final leg - and 5 years after being pronounced dead Betty Robinson won her second Olympic gold medal.
Cassius Clay may have been a good Olympic boxer, John Carlos may have made a significant Olympic statement, Betty Robinson coming back from the dead, now that is the sign of greatness.
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Jesus Christ eat your heart out! He MAY have come back, but didn't get a Gold medal ;)
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How about that American lass that almost lost her feet thanks to a disease whose name escapes me before coming back to win gold in her event (which I think was 100 metres, but that's also slipped my mind).
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Another contender is Hungarian fencer Aladar Gerevich who is the only person to win an event 6 times (despite two games passed because of the Second World War). He won his last gold medal 28 years after winning his first.
Something that needs to be borne in mind with Phelps is that swimming offers a lot more opportunity for medals and 8 of his gold medals have come as part of a relay team. This puts him way down the list IMO.
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Another contender is Hungarian fencer Aladar Gerevich who is the only person to win an event 6 times (despite two games passed because of the Second World War). He won his last gold medal 28 years after winning his first.
Something that needs to be borne in mind with Phelps is that swimming offers a lot more opportunity for medals and 8 of his gold medals have come as part of a relay team. This puts him way down the list IMO.
I did bear it in mind...about 6 posts ago...lol
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These posts further exemplify for me why no one person can be considered the greatest Olympian ever. There are many contenders.
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Phelps is certainly the most successful Olympian, but is that the only thing that defines greatness? I don't have an answer, but debates like this are big reasons why the Olympics continues to be so great. We're talking about great sportsmen for a change, not transfer fees or clubs going bust.
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Medal number 20 secured....
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Mark Spitz 1972 Olympics, 7 Golds all won with World Record Times, something Phelps has n`t done
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Difficult to gage. Jessie Owens not only captured the Olympic spirit by competing despite the racist ideology of the time but won four gold medals at the time. However, is he the greatest of all time? How is it defined? He's certainly one of the most influential.
What about talent? Personally I'd go for the Heptathletes/Decathletes/Triathletes who perhaps aren't the best in a particular field but excel far beyond average in a multitude of disciplines.
For example Jessica Ennis today got the record for a Heptathlete in the 100m hurdles. Yet I don't think people realise how close she is to the world record; about half a second. Imagine the training it takes to do one discipline. Now imagine how much it takes to do three, seven or ten.
So I suppose by my own logic I've come full circle. Michael Phelps has 20 Gold Medals (unless I've missed the latest) and - I've just looked - has beaten 39 world records across - from what I can see - three disciplines in his career. He's not the greatest, but he's damn good.
To me the greatest Olympians are those truly talented all-round sports-person (politically correct brigade) who shows consistency at the highest level. That is, anyone can be a great Olympian.
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The greatest is without doubt Muhammad Ali.
What he went on to achieve in the sport of boxing will never ever be surpassed.
I'm struggling to think of something he did in boxing that hasn't been surpassed or at least matched. However, I'm sure you can enlighten us.
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I'm struggling to think of something he did in boxing that hasn't been surpassed or at least matched. However, I'm sure you can enlighten us.
I'm going to leave you struggling. Your post shows how little you know about 'the greatest'.
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Unfortunately 2 debates going on both (like Politics) with no definitive answers. People can only offer "subjective" opinions - due to some of the factors already mentioned above
Is a cyclist "more" of a great Olympian than a rower or a Decathlete .... who san say.
Similarly in Boxing there are so many differnet eras , weights and other factors to acclaim one man above all the others. Personality wise and showmanship wise Clay/Ali was one apart but would Mike Tyson have bitten his ear off ? Who can say ?
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I'm struggling to think of something he did in boxing that hasn't been surpassed or at least matched. However, I'm sure you can enlighten us.
I'm going to leave you struggling. Your post shows how little you know about 'the greatest'.
Oh but please do show us your encyclopedic knowledge of sporting achievements, as according to all these people (who know a lot more about boxing than I do) he is not even the greatest boxer of all time:
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest110
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/557861-the-100-greatest-pound-for-pound-boxers-of-all-time/
http://boxing.about.com/od/history/a/50_greatest.htm
http://druhepkins.hubpages.com/hub/Top-Ten-Greatest-Boxers-of-All-Time
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Oh but please do show us your encyclopedic knowledge of sporting achievements, as according to all these people (who know a lot more about boxing than I do) he is not even the greatest boxer of all time:
Your problem is that you are easily led and are unable to make your mind up about anything so you seek the views of others and then follow them like a sheep. Ali is not just known as the greatest boxer to have lived, he is also considered to be the greatest sportsman of all time.
Ali was named “Sportsman of the Century” by Sports Illustrated magazine. He defeated every top heavyweight in his era, and was named “Fighter of the Year” by Ring Magazine more times than any other boxer. He is much more than just a boxer. You need to take the blinkers off and stop being so narrow minded.
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Your title is OLYMPIAN, not sportsman.
We need to debate the thread title 'Olympian' as you request, not greatest sportsman.
As Sportsman Ali is worthy of a shout
As Olympian Ali is some way down the pecking order
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I want to stick my neck out but I can't just pick one.
Steve Redgrave - 84, 88, 92, 96, 2000 (Consistency)
Carl Lewis - 84, 88, 92, 96 (Sprints and Long Jump)
Tammi Grey Thompson - One of the most successful Paralympians of all time.
The problem is comparing decades. Looking through the list of world records, the men's discus/hammer and a disturbing amount of women's track and field records have been unbeaten since the 80s. I'm sure they didn't know half what they know now about performance enhancing drugs. A lot of the holders seem to be eastern bloc as well.
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I'm struggling to think of something he did in boxing that hasn't been surpassed or at least matched. However, I'm sure you can enlighten us.
I'm going to leave you struggling. Your post shows how little you know about 'the greatest'.
Translates as 'I was talking out of my arse as usual, and can't back up what I say'. Just as I expected.
Which is surprising, because normally you can't wait to demonstrate to us how much more you know than the rest of us...!
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Oh but please do show us your encyclopedic knowledge of sporting achievements, as according to all these people (who know a lot more about boxing than I do) he is not even the greatest boxer of all time:
Your problem is that you are easily led and are unable to make your mind up about anything so you seek the views of others and then follow them like a sheep. Ali is not just known as the greatest boxer to have lived, he is also considered to be the greatest sportsman of all time.
Ali was named “Sportsman of the Century” by Sports Illustrated magazine. He defeated every top heavyweight in his era, and was named “Fighter of the Year” by Ring Magazine more times than any other boxer. He is much more than just a boxer. You need to take the blinkers off and stop being so narrow minded.
Your problem is you have very little empirical grasp or in depth knowledge of your subjects - and try and challenge that of others by insults. I engage in research and encourage others to do so. Narrow-minded is to have an unstructered and unsupported viewpoint that you stick to whilst ignoring any evidence that does not support that, broad-minded is to look at as many viewpoints as possible. Your judgement of Ali being greater than, Phelps, Hoy, Zatopek, Blankers-Cohen, Pietri, Redgrave, Owens, etc is 'Fighter of the Year'!
Another contender should be Jim Thorpe, native-American who won the pentathlon and decathlon by embarrassing margins in Stockholm 1912. He sufferedheavily from racial prejudice and had his medals taken away when it was discovered he had played minor league baseball for money and was judged to be professional (even though this was common among American athletes of the time).
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I'll chuck in Al Oerter.
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Translates as 'I was talking out of my arse as usual, and can't back up what I say'.
Unbelievable. Never in the history of this forum has there been a poster such as myself that backs up everything he says. Fact.
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Translates as 'I was talking out of my arse as usual, and can't back up what I say'.
Unbelievable. Never in the history of this forum has there been a poster such as myself that backs up everything he says. Fact.
You didn't answer my question. Fact.
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Unbelievable. Never in the history of this forum has there been a poster such as myself that plagiarises everything he says. Fact.
What's Peter Schiff's take on this question Mick?
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Translates as 'I was talking out of my arse as usual, and can't back up what I say'.
Unbelievable. Never in the history of this forum has there been a poster such as myself that backs up everything he says. Fact.
That's a big claim, can you back it up?
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You didn't answer my question. Fact.
Sometimes questions are beneath contempt and indicate that the poster doesn't know his subject matter very well or is just trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. IMO you fall into both categories. However I am going to humour you (just a little bit).
Now back to the question of who is the greatest Olympian of all time. To be an Olympian you just have to compete at the Olympics. IMO how you fare at the Olympics is just one small part of what makes you the greatest Olympian. What you do with the rest of your life adds to your Olympic achievements. Given the extremely rich tapestry of Ali's life there is no question that he is the greatest Olympian that there has ever been.
One of his achievements was to to become the first and only three-time lineal World Heavyweight Champion. He was crowned Sportsman of the Century by Sports Illustrated and he was also voted Sports Personality of the Century by the BBC.
He was also active in politics (a bit like me) and refused to be conscripted into the U.S. military. This was based on his religious beliefs and opposition to the Vietnam War. He stated, I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong... No Viet Cong ever called me nigger'. This was one of the more telling remarks of the era.
Widespread protests against the Vietnam War had not yet begun, but with that one phrase, Ali articulated the reason to oppose the war for a generation of young Americans. His words served as a touchstone for the racial and antiwar upheavals that would rock the 1960s.
Ali's example inspired Martin Luther King, Jr. who had been reluctant to alienate the Johnson Administration and its support of the civil rights agenda and gave him the courage to voice his own opposition to the war for the first time.
Ali's 3 fights with rival Joe Frazier are considered to be the greatest in boxing history. Ali brought beauty and grace to boxing and through the wonderful excesses of skill and character he became the most famous athlete in the world.
He was also the best exponent of pre-match hype, where he would 'trash talk' opponents, often with rhymes. He is the best looking most intelligent boxer there has ever been and to cap it all he is also a great example of how to cope with a debilitating disease. I could go on for many more hours but I'm sure by now you get my drift. No other Olympian even comes close to him. Game set and match.
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That's a big claim, can you back it up?
All you have to do is check my posts and you will see what I mean. Every question that gets thrown at me gets answered (unlike my questions that very rarely get answered, BST being the biggest culprit).
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You didn't answer my question. Fact.
Sometimes questions are beneath contempt and indicate that the poster doesn't know his subject matter very well or is just trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. IMO you fall into both categories. However I am going to humour you (just a little bit).
Now back to the question of who is the greatest Olympian of all time. To be an Olympian you just have to compete at the Olympics. IMO how you fare at the Olympics is just one small part of what makes you the greatest Olympian. What you do with the rest of your life adds to your Olympic achievements. Given the extremely rich tapestry of Ali's life there is no question that he is the greatest Olympian that there has ever been.
One of his achievements was to to become the first and only three-time lineal World Heavyweight Champion. He was crowned Sportsman of the Century by Sports Illustrated and he was also voted Sports Personality of the Century by the BBC.
He was also active in politics (a bit like me) and refused to be conscripted into the U.S. military. This was based on his religious beliefs and opposition to the Vietnam War. He stated, I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong... No Viet Cong ever called me nigger'. This was one of the more telling remarks of the era.
Widespread protests against the Vietnam War had not yet begun, but with that one phrase, Ali articulated the reason to oppose the war for a generation of young Americans. His words served as a touchstone for the racial and antiwar upheavals that would rock the 1960s.
Ali's example inspired Martin Luther King, Jr. who had been reluctant to alienate the Johnson Administration and its support of the civil rights agenda and gave him the courage to voice his own opposition to the war for the first time.
Ali's 3 fights with rival Joe Frazier are considered to be the greatest in boxing history. Ali brought beauty and grace to boxing and through the wonderful excesses of skill and character he became the most famous athlete in the world.
He was also the best exponent of pre-match hype, where he would 'trash talk' opponents, often with rhymes. He is the best looking most intelligent boxer there has ever been and to cap it all he is also a great example of how to cope with a debilitating disease. I could go on for many more hours but I'm sure by now you get my drift. No other Olympian even comes close to him. Game set and match.
And the only part of all that blather that has any relevance to the original statement of "What he went on to achieve in the sport of boxing will never ever be surpassed." is gthe reference to being three-time world champion. the rest of it has nothing at all to do with achievement in boxing.
I knew he was three-time world champion before I even asked you as I'm of an age to remember him in his prime, but as he was stripped of the title through politics rather than by being beaten in the ring, those boxers who have been two-time world champions have equalled Ali in the purely boxing sense of the word. I would argue that those who have won at least three world championships in more than one weight category surpass even Ali's record (impressive as it is) :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_boxing_triple_champions
Nice as the rest of the cut and paste from Wikipedia is (oops, old habits dying hard, eh Mick?), it's completely irrelevant as nothing about it relates to his achievements in the sport of boxing. Game, set and ripped off catchphrase.
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I knew he was three-time world champion before I even asked you as I'm of an age to remember him in his prime, but as he was stripped of the title through politics rather than by being beaten in the ring, those boxers who have been two-time world champions have equalled Ali in the purely boxing sense of the word.
Don't be surprised if you find yourself in a minority of one on that point of view.
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I knew he was three-time world champion before I even asked you as I'm of an age to remember him in his prime, but as he was stripped of the title through politics rather than by being beaten in the ring, those boxers who have been two-time world champions have equalled Ali in the purely boxing sense of the word.
Don't be surprised if you find yourself in a minority of one on that point of view.
Any particular reason you didn't highlight the whole of that sentence or are you only really interested in cheap shots out of context?
EDIT: Why am even bothering to I ask? Everybody knows that's all you're interested in.
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And the only part of all that informed comment that has any relevance to the original statement of "What he went on to achieve in the sport of boxing will never ever be surpassed." is gthe reference to being three-time world champion. the rest of it has nothing at all to do with achievement in boxing.
He was crowned Sportsman of the Century by Sports Illustrated and he was also voted Sports Personality of the Century by the BBC.
Ali's 3 fights with rival Joe Frazier are considered to be the greatest in boxing history.
Ali brought beauty and grace to boxing and through the wonderful excesses of skill and character he became the most famous athlete in the world.He was also the best exponent of pre-match hype, where he would 'trash talk' opponents, often with rhymes.
Are you saying these achievements have nothing to do with what he achieved in boxing. Are you saying his political influence had nothing to do with his boxing achievements? Unbelievable.
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Any particular reason you didn't highlight the whole of that sentence or are you only really interested in cheap shots out of context?
How can you say it was out of context when I printed the whole of your waffle. Unbelievable.
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And the only part of all that informed comment that has any relevance to the original statement of "What he went on to achieve in the sport of boxing will never ever be surpassed." is gthe reference to being three-time world champion. the rest of it has nothing at all to do with achievement in boxing.
He was crowned Sportsman of the Century by Sports Illustrated and he was also voted Sports Personality of the Century by the BBC.
Ali's 3 fights with rival Joe Frazier are considered to be the greatest in boxing history.
Ali brought beauty and grace to boxing and through the wonderful excesses of skill and character he became the most famous athlete in the world.He was also the best exponent of pre-match hype, where he would 'trash talk' opponents, often with rhymes.
Are you saying these achievements have nothing to do with what he achieved in boxing. Unbelievable.
If you'd just like to point out which of those are achievments in the ring I'd agree with you.
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Any particular reason you didn't highlight the whole of that sentence or are you only really interested in cheap shots out of context?
How can you say it was out of context when I printed the whole of your waffle. Unbelievable.
You didn't embolden the whole of the sentence, meaning that you were replying to that single clause, not the whole sentence. You didn't know that? Unbelievable.
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Love it. Cassius Clay is the greatest Olympian because he became a Muslim and is a leftie, pinkie loving communist who let his country down. And he is Gordon Brown's favourite boxer!
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And to me he's not even the greatest Olympic boxer, as far as I'm concerned that'd have to be Teophilo Stevenson.
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He was crowned Sportsman of the Century by Sports Illustrated and he was also voted Sports Personality of the Century by the BBC.
Ali's 3 fights with rival Joe Frazier are considered to be the greatest in boxing history.
Ali brought beauty and grace to boxing and through the wonderful excesses of skill and character he became the most famous athlete in the world.He was also the best exponent of pre-match hype, where he would 'trash talk' opponents, often with rhymes.
Are you saying these achievements have nothing to do with what he achieved in boxing. Unbelievable.
If you'd just like to point out which of those are achievments in the ring I'd agree with you.
I've highlighted one phrase that I am sorry you didn't understand the first time around. Thank you for now agreeing with me. It makes a change for someone to admit they were wrong.
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Love it. Cassius Clay is the greatest Olympian because he became a Muslim and is a leftie, pinkie loving communist who let his country down. And he is Gordon Brown's favourite boxer!
You really do yourself no favours with a comment like that. You make yourself look incredibly stupid. I'd delete it if I were you before anyone else sees it. At least Gordon got that one right.
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Love it. Cassius Clay is the greatest Olympian because he became a Muslim and is a leftie, pinkie loving communist who let his country down. And he is Gordon Brown's favourite boxer!
You really do yourself no favours with a comment like that. You make yourself look incredibly stupid. I'd delete it if I were you before anyone else sees it. At least Gordon got that one right.
Why, its not my opinion, its your 'facts' put in plain language. Who would have thought you were really a commie-lover. Made my evening that has.
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Why, its not my opinion, its your 'facts' put in plain language. Who would have thought you were really a commie-lover. Made my evening that has.
It is very rare for me to be lost for words but on this occasion I am (please don't be stupid enough to take this as a compliment).
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He was crowned Sportsman of the Century by Sports Illustrated and he was also voted Sports Personality of the Century by the BBC.
Ali's 3 fights with rival Joe Frazier are considered to be the greatest in boxing history.
Ali brought beauty and grace to boxing and through the wonderful excesses of skill and character he became the most famous athlete in the world.He was also the best exponent of pre-match hype, where he would 'trash talk' opponents, often with rhymes.
Are you saying these achievements have nothing to do with what he achieved in boxing. Unbelievable.
If you'd just like to point out which of those are achievments in the ring I'd agree with you.
I've highlighted one phrase that I am sorry you didn't understand the first time around. Thank you for now agreeing with me. It makes a change for someone to admit they were wrong.
Being 'considered' something isn't an achievement in boxing. Winning is. Unbelievable.
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Being 'considered' something isn't an achievement in boxing. Winning is.
Some people just can't stop digging themselves into a hole. If you think partaking in the best 3 fights in boxing history isn't an achievement then there is no hope for you. Winning is not the be all and end all, but even there you shoot yourself in the foot. Who won 2 out of the 3 and only lost the first one due to having had to endure a prolonged ban from the ring? I'll tell you - Ali. Truly unbelievable.
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If you think partaking in the best 3 fights in boxing history isn't an achievement then there is no hope for you. Winning is not the be all and end all, but even there you shoot yourself in the foot.
In that case Joe Frazier achieved, by your very own words. just as much as Ali. He partook in those fights, and whether he won them is not the be all and end all. Game, set and match.
And just because somebody 'thinks' they are the greatest fights of all time doesn't make them that anyway, so it's still not a definable achievement and completely irrelevant to your original assertion.
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Some people just can't stop digging themselves into a hole...only lost the first one due to having had to endure a prolonged ban from the ring? I'll tell you - Ali. Truly unbelievable.
Better put that spade down then. Ali had two fights in the six months before the first fight with Frazier, and he won both of them.
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Mick. You are frequently lost for words. Your solution is to Google something, then copy and paste it and pass it off as your own thoughts. Laughable really.
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In that case Joe Frazier achieved, by your very own words. just as much as Ali. He partook in those fights, and whether he won them is not the be all and end all. Game, set and match.
And just because somebody 'thinks' they are the greatest fights of all time doesn't make them that anyway, so it's still not a definable achievement and completely irrelevant to your original assertion.
You are starting to sound more and more confused with each post. Ali achieved more than Frazier - he won 2 out of 3. As for your next comment, you also have me lost for words with your incomprehensible twaddle.
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Better put that spade down then. Ali had two fights in the six months before the first fight with Frazier, and he won both of them.
It is a mark of the man that after 4 years out of the ring he had only 2 warm-up fights before going in at the deep end against Frazier. So please put that spade away now.
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In that case Joe Frazier achieved, by your very own words. just as much as Ali. He partook in those fights, and whether he won them is not the be all and end all. Game, set and match.
And just because somebody 'thinks' they are the greatest fights of all time doesn't make them that anyway, so it's still not a definable achievement and completely irrelevant to your original assertion.
You are starting to sound more and more confused with each post. Ali achieved more than Frazier - he won 2 out of 3. As for your next comment, you also have me lost for words with your incomprehensible twaddle.
Sorry, I thought incomprehensible twaddle was how you communicated.
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mjdgreg. You are frequently lost for words. Your solution is to Google something, then copy and paste it and pass it off as your own thoughts. Laughable really.
You seem to be jealous of my photographic memory and that my views are held by many other respected pundits. Your views however are easily exposed as the ramblings of a leftie loonie with no credence behind them whatsoever. pmsl.
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mjdgreg. You are frequently lost for words. Your solution is to Google something, then copy and paste it and pass it off as your own thoughts. Laughable really.
You seem to be jealous of my photographic memory and that my views are held by many other respected pundits. Your views however are easily exposed as the ramblings of a leftie loonie with no credence behind them whatsoever. pmsl.
Whereas you, for some inexplicable reason, seem to hold on to the fantasy that anybody here gives a flying fart what you think about anything. PMSL. Unbelievable.
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Sorry, I thought incomprehensible twaddle was how you communicated.
Apology accepted. That's where you've been going wrong. It's you that is guilty of incomprehensible twaddle.
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Whereas you, for some inexplicable reason, seem to hold on to the fantasy that anybody here gives a flying fart what you think about anything. PMSL. Unbelievable.
I refer you to the Bob Diamond thread with over 2300 views. I have also instigated other threads that go over the 1000 mark. Have you ever instigated a thread that has had over 100 views? pmsl.
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Sorry, I thought incomprehensible twaddle was how you communicated.
Apology accepted. That's where you've been going wrong. It's you that is guilty of incomprehensible twaddle.
Just trying to join in at your level.
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Whereas you, for some inexplicable reason, seem to hold on to the fantasy that anybody here gives a flying fart what you think about anything. PMSL. Unbelievable.
I refer you to the Bob Diamond thread with over 2300 views. I have also instigated other threads that go over the 1000 mark. Have you ever instigated a thread that has had over 100 views? pmsl.
Again, you seem to think anyone cares. And is that pathetic statistic your idea of a measure of 'success'? PMSL.
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You didn't answer my question. Fact.
Sometimes questions are beneath contempt and indicate that the poster doesn't know his subject matter very well or is just trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. IMO you fall into both categories. However I am going to humour you (just a little bit).
Now back to the question of who is the greatest Olympian of all time. To be an Olympian you just have to compete at the Olympics. IMO how you fare at the Olympics is just one small part of what makes you the greatest Olympian. What you do with the rest of your life adds to your Olympic achievements. Given the extremely rich tapestry of Ali's life there is no question that he is the greatest Olympian that there has ever been.
One of his achievements was to to become the first and only three-time lineal World Heavyweight Champion. He was crowned Sportsman of the Century by Sports Illustrated and he was also voted Sports Personality of the Century by the BBC.
He was also active in politics (a bit like me) and refused to be conscripted into the U.S. military. This was based on his religious beliefs and opposition to the Vietnam War. He stated, I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong... No Viet Cong ever called me nigger'. This was one of the more telling remarks of the era.
Widespread protests against the Vietnam War had not yet begun, but with that one phrase, Ali articulated the reason to oppose the war for a generation of young Americans. His words served as a touchstone for the racial and antiwar upheavals that would rock the 1960s.
Ali's example inspired Martin Luther King, Jr. who had been reluctant to alienate the Johnson Administration and its support of the civil rights agenda and gave him the courage to voice his own opposition to the war for the first time.
To go back to your previous Wikipedia post. As you feel Ali greatness lies in his refusal to be drafted (for which his punishment was having his boxing licence taken away), which Olympic medallist (captain of his country's team) was a pacifist & conscientious objector in WWI (for which the punishment could be a firing squad), serving instead in the Ambulance Corps from 1914-18? He was also heavily involved in deciding government policy on the home front during WWII.
The author of several books on pacifism and disarmament, he relaxed that view with the rise of fascism which he saw as a greater danger, he was also a supporter of educational development and policy for the greater benefit of all.
Despite holding several home ministerial positions his greatest achievements were his involvement in the creation of both the League of Nations and the United Nations - for which he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. He ended his political career as president of the UNESCO council of sport.
Plenty of clues in there, shouldn't take you long to find him on google - and educate yourself.
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Don't forget De Coubertain himself, who not only created the modern Olympic Games but was a gold medallist himself.
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To go back to your previous Wikipedia post. As you feel Ali greatness lies in his refusal to be drafted (for which his punishment was having his boxing licence taken away), which Olympic medallist (captain of his country's team) was a pacifist & conscientious objector in WWI (for which the punishment could be a firing squad), serving instead in the Ambulance Corps from 1914-18? He was also heavily involved in deciding government policy on the home front during WWII.
The author of several books on pacifism and disarmament, he relaxed that view with the rise of fascism which he saw as a greater danger, he was also a supporter of educational development and policy for the greater benefit of all.
Despite holding several home ministerial positions his greatest achievements were his involvement in the creation of both the League of Nations and the United Nations - for which he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. He ended his political career as president of the UNESCO council of sport.
Plenty of clues in there, shouldn't take you long to find him on google - and educate yourself.
Any fool knows that you are talking about leftie Phillip Noel-Baker. Why you mention this person is a complete mystery to me. How you form the opinion that I think Ali's greatness lies in his refusal to be drafted is also a complete mystery to me. You seem to inhabit a weird parallel universe where coherent logical arguments are nowhere to be seen. All you do is come up with meaningless pointless posts. Seems you are another one that was put straight on the Cow and Gate.
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Again, you seem to think anyone cares. And is that pathetic statistic your idea of a measure of 'success'? PMSL.
I agree that none of your threads ever going above 100 views is a pathetic statistic and is a very poor measure of 'success'. You are obviously an abject failure at stimulating interesting debate. You would do well to learn from me and take on board my pugnacious debating style and try to stick to facts instead of trying to provoke an argument with incoherent points of view.
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Fun fact. Australia (sports-mad country) has won less medals than Yorkshire (whippet-mad county) at the Olympics this year.
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Just trying to join in at your level.
I'm sorry, but based on your previous ramblings I don't see any possible way that you could get anywhere near my level. Take a step back. Learn from the way that I have previously demolished the reputations of BST, LJMonk, Wilts Rover etc and do yourself a favour and retire gracelessly from the debate before you find yourself being added to my victims list (if it's not too late already).
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To go back to your previous Wikipedia post. As you feel Ali greatness lies in his refusal to be drafted (for which his punishment was having his boxing licence taken away), which Olympic medallist (captain of his country's team) was a pacifist & conscientious objector in WWI (for which the punishment could be a firing squad), serving instead in the Ambulance Corps from 1914-18? He was also heavily involved in deciding government policy on the home front during WWII.
The author of several books on pacifism and disarmament, he relaxed that view with the rise of fascism which he saw as a greater danger, he was also a supporter of educational development and policy for the greater benefit of all.
Despite holding several home ministerial positions his greatest achievements were his involvement in the creation of both the League of Nations and the United Nations - for which he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. He ended his political career as president of the UNESCO council of sport.
Plenty of clues in there, shouldn't take you long to find him on google - and educate yourself.
Any fool knows that you are talking about leftie Phillip Noel-Baker. Why you mention this person is a complete mystery to me. How you form the opinion that I think Ali's greatness lies in his refusal to be drafted is also a complete mystery to me. You seem to inhabit a weird parallel universe where coherent logical arguments are nowhere to be seen. All you do is come up with meaningless pointless posts. Seems you are another one that was put straight on the Cow and Gate.
Sorry I appear to have overestimated your powers of intelligence and analysis so I shall make it simpler for you. In a previous post you said that the sign of a great Olympian is not what they do at the Olympics - but what they do and who they influence in their wider life. Philip Noel-Baker is one of only two Olympians to have won a Nobel Peace Prize, the other wasn't Ali. Not only did Noel-Baker influence the UN, he set it up. Even your little brain might consider being involved in the three greatest fights in history (sic) slightly less impressive than being involved in two World Wars. But as posses all the debating skills of a ranting 5 year old, i somehow doubt it.
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Are we still going on about Muhammed Ali?
Olympics mean OLYMPICS, no matter how much you try to argue it. Get over it, he's not the greatest Olympian of all time.
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Not only did Noel-Baker influence the UN, he set it up.
Slight exaggeration (again). Noel-Baker served on the British delegation to what became the United Nations, helping to draft its charter and other rules for operation as a British delegate.
Well done to him for helping set up what is a totally ineffectual organisation. Another typical waste of public money by a leftie politician.
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OLYMPICS damnit, OLYMPICS. Nothing outside counts when you're assessing the greatest Olympian.
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OLYMPICS damnit, OLYMPICS. Nothing outside counts when you're assessing the greatest Olympian.
Depends on your definition of Olympian. The Oxford Dictionary concur with my view. They state that an Olympian is:
'a competitor in the Olympic Games'.
So when assessing the greatest Olympian it is far too narrow a measure just to base your argument on what was achieved at the Olympic Games.
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If I were that lowest form of internet krill, a Grammar Nazi, I might ask when the word "dictionary" became a plural.
But only inadequates spend their weekends obsessing over the minutiae of other folks' grammar, so I'll pass.
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OLYMPICS damnit, OLYMPICS. Nothing outside counts when you're assessing the greatest Olympian.
Depends on your definition of Olympian. The Oxford Dictionary concur with my view. They state that an Olympian is:
'a competitor in the Olympic Games'.
So when assessing the greatest Olympian it is far too narrow a measure just to base your argument on what was achieved at the Olympic Games.
Haven't you just contradicted yourself? A competitor IN in the Olympics. If you judge the athlete on what they've done OUT of the Olympics, then it isn't really judging a athlete as an Olympian, is it?
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If I were that lowest form of internet krill, a Grammar Nazi, I might ask when the word "dictionary" became a plural.
But only inadequates spend their weekends obsessing over the minutiae of other folks' grammar, so I'll pass.
lol
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Haven't you just contradicted yourself? A competitor IN in the Olympics. If you judge the athlete on what they've done OUT of the Olympics, then it isn't really judging a athlete as an Olympian, is it?
No I haven't. To be described as an Olympian all you have to do is compete in the Olympic Games. Doesn't matter how good or bad you were, you are still an Olympian. So no matter whatever you achieve in life, you will always be an Olympian. Some Olympians go on to achieve far more in the rest of their lives than they ever did at the Olympic games. They can then be considered as the greatest Olympian of all time. That is why Ali holds the title by a country mile.
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To me, they are all pretty darned special, just to get to the pinacle of your game, to wear your countries colours in the highest, most famous sporting event in the world makes them all great.
One cannot be judged against another because every four years standards are raised ever higher and records are broken.
They are all incredible in my opinion.
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If you're going to consider achievements outside of The Games then I'm going to throw Plato into the ring. His CV isn't too shabby.
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OLYMPICS damnit, OLYMPICS. Nothing outside counts when you're assessing the greatest Olympian.
Depends on your definition of Olympian. The Oxford Dictionary concur with my view. They state that an Olympian is:
'a competitor in the Olympic Games'.
So when assessing the greatest Olympian it is far too narrow a measure just to base your argument on what was achieved at the Olympic Games.
That great authority on words and their meanings, Wordhippo states
any of the twelve Greek gods regarded as living on Olympus
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Haven't you just contradicted yourself? A competitor IN in the Olympics. If you judge the athlete on what they've done OUT of the Olympics, then it isn't really judging a athlete as an Olympian, is it?
No I haven't. To be described as an Olympian all you have to do is compete in the Olympic Games. Doesn't matter how good or bad you were, you are still an Olympian. So no matter whatever you achieve in life, you will always be an Olympian. Some Olympians go on to achieve far more in the rest of their lives than they ever did at the Olympic games. They can then be considered as the greatest Olympian of all time. That is why Ali holds the title by a country mile.
By that logic, Pope John Paul II is one of the most influential Goalkeepers that ever lived.
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By that logic, Pope John Paul II is one of the most influential Goalkeepers that ever lived.
I don't follow your logic. We're talking about the 'greatest' not the most influential. I'm surprised he competed in the Olympics as a goalkeeper. All I do know is that he is responsible for millions of deaths from AIDS due to his ridiculous religion banning contraception.
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I never said anything about the Olympics, I said Goalkeeper ... you're not the only one who can nitpick.
As for that anyway. Ali isn't even the greatest sportsman of all time. A true sportsman is someone who is a natural to all sports, someone who dedicates their life to sport and someone who achieves greatness across a variety of competitions and levels.
I'm not disputing that he was a great Boxer. He was perhaps the best Boxer that ever and will ever be. However, there are better sportsmen in history and thus, by your definition, not the greatest Olympian of all time.
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I never said anything about the Olympics, I said Goalkeeper ... you're not the only one who can nitpick.
As for that anyway. Ali isn't even the greatest sportsman of all time. A true sportsman is someone who is a natural to all sports, someone who dedicates their life to sport and someone who achieves greatness across a variety of competitions and levels.
I'm not disputing that he was a great Boxer. He was perhaps the best Boxer that ever and will ever be. However, there are better sportsmen in history and thus, by your definition, not the greatest Olympian of all time.
Of course I knew he never competed at the Olympics. I was trying to make the subtle point that you should only be referring to Olympians in this thread. Talking about a Pope that used to be a goalkeeper is a bit weird and I don't know why you did it.
You are entitled to your opinion on Ali. We'll just have to disagree on that one.
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Yes, we should ONLY be referring to the Olympics. They are the words "only" and "Olympics" in the same sentence. That is to say, when talking about the greatest Olympian, one should only be concerned with the goings on within the Olympics and the Olympics only. Ali won a Gold medal, once. He may be a great Boxer, a formidable sportsman but not one of the greatest Olympians.
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Yes, we should ONLY be referring to the Olympics. They are the words "only" and "Olympics" in the same sentence. That is to say, when talking about the greatest Olympian, one should only be concerned with the goings on within the Olympics and the Olympics only. Ali won a Gold medal, once. He may be a great Boxer, a formidable sportsman but not one of the greatest Olympians.
I'd agree with you if the title of the thread was 'Is Michael Phelps the greatest Olympian of all time but you must ignore any achievements outside of the Olympic games.' Unfortunately for you this isn't the title of the thread. If you can get the Oxford Dictionaries to change their definition of an Olympian to your version then I will happily agree with you. Until then I'm afraid you are just plain wrong and I am right as usual.
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For the love of f**king Jesus.
Mick. Tell us how to defi e the word "greatest" and we can then have a discussion.
PS: I looked on Word Hippo, but it didn't have an entry for "greatest" so I'm struggling again.
Mind, it DID have an entry for "opposite of" greatest. It said "Least"
So, we can re-phrase the original question: Who is the opposite of the least Olympian?"
In Mick-world, the two questions are identical.
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For the love of f***ing Jesus.
mjdgreg. Tell us how to defi e the word "greatest" and we can then have a discussion.
PS: I looked on Word Hippo, but it didn't have an entry for "greatest" so I'm struggling again.
Mind, it DID have an entry for "opposite of" greatest. It said "Least"
So, we can re-phrase the original question: Who is the opposite of the least Olympian?"
In mjdgreg-world, the two questions are identical.
OMFG. I'm impressed. Looks like you've taken my advice and the humour bypass reversal operation has been a success. Let's hope it does the same trick for Jucyberry.
I do have a request though. Even though I am a devout atheist and taking our Lord's name in vain doesn't bother me in the slightest, you have to take account of the fact there are many Christian viewers of this forum that you will be upsetting greatly. I'm sure they would appreciate it if you didn't express your anger at my posts in such a blasphemous way.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mN4P_WxdnE
Derek Redmond, end of story. Thank you for coming.
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Well, on your advise Mick i went to the doctors to see about the bypass...
He said i don't actually need one.............
It's just my t**tometer is working overtime at the moment...... Lord knows why tho .... :whistle: :whistle: :boxing:
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Well, on your advise mjdgreg i went to the doctors to see about the bypass...
He said i don't actually need one.............
It's just my t**tometer is working overtime at the moment...... Lord knows why tho ....
It's probably because you have been reading that pure filth, 50 Shades of Grey. It's the first time that I've heard it called that though. I'm more used to the abbreviated version of the word.
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Well, on your advise mjdgreg i went to the doctors to see about the bypass...
He said i don't actually need one.............
It's just my t**tometer is working overtime at the moment...... Lord knows why tho ....
It's probably because you have been reading that pure filth, 50 Shades of Grey. It's the first time that I've heard it called that though. I'm more used to the abbreviated version of the word.
Credit where credit's due, that one was pretty good Mick (I'll save you the editing - mjdgreg).
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Sorry Mick, not being a brain dead sheep...
No, I haven't read and have no intention of ever reading 50 shades of shite..
I just have an increasingly low tolerance for nonsense. :)
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Sorry mjdgreg, not being a brain dead sheep...
No, I haven't read and have no intention of ever reading 50 shades of shite..
I just have an increasingly low tolerance for nonsense.
I'd get a second opinion on that reversal operation if I was you.
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Sorry mjdgreg, not being a brain dead sheep...
No, I haven't read and have no intention of ever reading 50 shades of shite..
I just have an increasingly low tolerance for nonsense.
I'd get a second opinion on that reversal operation if I was you.
Sorry mjdgreg, not being a brain dead sheep...
No, I haven't read and have no intention of ever reading 50 shades of shite..
I just have an increasingly low tolerance for nonsense.
I'd get a second opinion on that reversal operation if I was you.
Should that be WERE you.
.... any Hippo available to quote ?
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Should that be WERE you.
I'd say both were correct. Americans would say you were correct. Grammatically speaking, 'If I were you' is the subjunctive mood and 'If I was you' is the simple past. Hope this helps.
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Mick.
Do you remember Roy Castle on Record Breakers?
"Obfuscation. Obfuscation. Obfuscation - that's what you need.
If you're getting beat hands down.
If you're looking like a clown.
Obfuscation's what you need".
As I say, Grammar Nazis are a particularly pathetic form of Intetnet uni-cellular life. However, you DID insist on correct use of English, and if you live by the sword, you are going to die by it too.
Your Google search was indeed correct that "if I was" is simple past and "if I were" is subjunctive. A shame then, that you didn't go on to look up what these actually mean.
Simple past, when used with "if" would be used to counter an accusation. For example "If I was wrong, then I apologise and will stop making a prick of myself in future." (NB: I accept that you personally may struggle to understand the sense of that sentence, since empirical evidence suggests that you are not capable of empathising with its meaning, but I'm sure everyone else will follow it just fine.)
The subjunctive "were" however, is used with "if" in order to set up a hypothetical situation and explore its consequences. For example, I might say "If I were you, I'd stop making a regular public idiot of myself old boy."
So, unless someone has accused you of actually being Jucy at some time in the past and you were answering that accusation, "if I was you" is incorrect.
Clear enough? Or does Mick have a different definition of simple past and subjunctive to the rest of the English speaking world?
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As I say, Grammar Nazis are a particularly pathetic form of Intetnet uni-cellular life.
I agree. You and DONNYWOLF need to give it a rest. If I was like you I would have pointed out to DONNYWOLF that 'WERE' should have been 'were'.
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As I say, Grammar Nazis are a particularly pathetic form of Intetnet uni-cellular life.
I agree. You and DONNYWOLF need to give it a rest. If I was like you I would have pointed out to DONNYWOLF that 'WERE' should have been 'were'.
But Mick.
I thought you were of the opinion that rigorously correct use of the English language was essential?
Did you not say recently, "The standard of grammar on this forum really does make my piss boil"?
Did you not several months ago advise a poster on this site that "You also need to bursh (sic) up a bit on your poor grammar"?
So, you have considerable previous as a Grammar Nazi. But all of a sudden, when you yourself make an egregious mistake, poor grammar is no longer important? Correct?
Have you ever heard of Skitt's Law by the way? It's an observation that any bell end who starts pulling apart someone's grammar on the internet in an effort to make themselves look self-important will inevitably end up making a stupid grammatical mistake themselves.
Whilst we're on the subject, have you ever heard of Danth's Law? The observation that when people on internet forums start claiming that they have won an argument, it means that they have made a fool of themselves and lost an argument.
You are a prime example of Skitt's Law and Danth's Law Mick. In fact the only Law you haven't embodied so far is Jude Law, but given your multiple personalities, I'm sure you will eventually.
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That's a big claim, can you back it up?
All you have to do is read my posts and it's obvious what I say is fact.
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Sir Chris Hoy anyone?
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Sir Chris Hoy anyone?
Chris Hoy has never beaten Plato in a bike race.
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Sir Chris Hoy anyone?
Chris Hoy has never beaten Plato in a bike race.
I`m sure he would have if Plato had a bike!
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Sir Chris Hoy anyone?
Chris Hoy has never beaten Plato in a bike race.
I`m sure he would have if Plato had a bike!
It's a crying shame, but we will never know for sure, one way or the other.
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Doesn't Plato race Touring Cars ?