Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: coventryrover on April 08, 2013, 12:50:19 pm
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Reports on 5 live is that she died this morning due to a stroke
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They will be dancing in the streets of Rotherham, Barnsley, Doncaster, Wakefield, South Wales, Scotland.
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Thank f**k for that and may the bitch rot in hell.
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Such a shame! , is there a massive ironic smiley to go with my first comment?
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Ding Dong the witch is dead :evil:
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POP! Fizzzzz....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067155
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Knew this would be on here. Ha. :boxing: Night night.
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I hope this is quickly moved out of this section to Off Topic
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As a long standing subscriber to the 'Is She Dead Yet?' website, it's been a joy to open the site and see the word 'Yes'.
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I hope this is quickly moved out of this section to Off Topic
Maybe it is relevent to be in this topic as many people were put out of work by this woman therefore depriving Rovers of support for many years since.
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:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
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A 10 minute applause before the match perhaps?
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Just remember she stopped this country sliding into Stalinist Scargill led society.
This allowed JR to actually make a few million pounds which is subsisidising your Rovers pleasure.
Only when Scargill dies will I open the Bolly.
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Well I for one am not going to pop open the champagne...might have a nice glass of milk though ;)
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Does anyone think they'll attempt a minutes silence? I'd like to see them bloody try. Being born and raised in South Wales and now having a very close connection to Donny I for one will be making plenty of noise :woohoo:
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Just remember she stopped this country sliding into Stalinist Scargill led society.
This allowed JR to actually make a few million pounds which is subsisidising your Rovers pleasure.
Only when Scargill dies will I open the Bolly.
So weve got to thank that bitch for our pleasure of watching rovers, what a load of b*llocks.
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Sick...
Don't get me wrong, I abhorred what Maggie and her government did to the country and to our communities but to celebrate someone's death, in a democracy, is a bit out of order.
Celebrate her political downfall yes, death, no.
Does her death change what she did in power? does it really? No. Had the tories been voted out in '87 and the political wrongs put right, would you be celebrating her death now?
This should move to off topic, it is not about football...
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Celebrate her political downfall yes, death, no.
Bravo. Civilised people don't celebrate deaths, anyone who does should be ashamed.
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Thatcher is and always be linked with football though. ID cards, fences, Hillsborough...even the famous Norwegian commentary when they beat England mentioned Thatcher! So not really off topic.
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It's politics.....
I don't agree with rejoicing in her depth, but I understand why many do whatever my thoughts politically about what she did and didn't do. The typical Doncaster person will hate her and that is fully their choice.
I don't think it's fair for people my age really to be commenting given it happened before my time and we see things completely differently to what those who lost jobs etc do.
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At the end of the day, what is reveling in her death going to achieve? Her policies were implemented, her death won't change that. And death is a fate everyone has coming.
Maybe its about time people moved on and forgot her now.
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Thatcher is and always be linked with football though. ID cards, fences, Hillsborough...even the famous Norwegian commentary when they beat England mentioned Thatcher! So not really off topic.
Her football related policies yes, her death, no..
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I just cannot believe that the number of sick people on this forum who are rejoicing at the death of Margaret Thatcher. Hang your heads in shame the lot of you.
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I just cannot believe that the number of sick people on this forum who are rejoicing at the death of Margaret Thatcher. Hang your heads in shame the lot of you.
Exactly. I suppose those who wanted her dead want the same fate for those who voted her in as well.
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Ding dong the bitch is dead :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
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Only when Scargill dies will I open the Bolly.
Just remember she stopped this country sliding into Stalinist Scargill led society.
This allowed JR to actually make a few million pounds which is subsisidising your Rovers pleasure.
So weve got to thank that bitch for our pleasure of watching rovers, what a load of b*llocks.
How crass to align some one who has done well with that vile witch, where is the connection apart from wealth? I always thought John was a self made man? no?
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Ding dong the bitch is dead :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
Sam, can I ask you, would you be offended if someone celebrated the death one of your relatives? I am no way related to Maggie but she does have family...
As I said, I abhorred what Mrs T did, but to celebrate a death, is sick.
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I hope this is quickly moved out of this section to Off Topic
Maybe it is relevent to be in this topic as many people were put out of work by this woman therefore depriving Rovers of support for many years since.
Please don't forget the part played by a certain Mr Scargill in all of this I have no sympathy for the woman but certainly will not rejoice in hers or anyone alses death!
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, i had Friends and relatives who were miners during the strike need i say more.
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, i had Friends and relatives who were miners during the strike need i say more.
So, that makes it okay to rejoice in her death? What do you actually know about the miners strike?
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, i had Friends and relatives who were miners during the strike need i say more.
And I lived in the middle of the areas widely affected by that strike. At the first available opportunity I voted against her. That's how it works in this country. If you don't like that, go to Zimbabwe and celebrate when Mugabe dies.
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The answers to your 2 questions are YES and Plenty :boxing:
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, i had Friends and relatives who were miners during the strike need i say more.
Don't we all and having seen the health problems they have I hope every single mine is closed. The sooner coal is consigned to history the better.
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The answers to your 2 questions are YES and Plenty :boxing:
Go on then..........
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The answers to your 2 questions are YES and Plenty :boxing:
Go on then..........
What?
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The answers to your 2 questions are YES and Plenty :boxing:
Go on then..........
What?
Never mind
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Please don't forget the part played by a certain Mr Scargill in all of this I have no sympathy for the woman but certainly will not rejoice in hers or anyone alses death!
By the same token, I don't remember the police hitting Thatcher over the head.
I understand completely why some feel the need to celebrate her death. I was in secondary school in the 80s and the poverty in Rossington was terrible. I was just thankful my dad was a railwayman not a miner. We regularly invited my friends families round for tea because we knew they had next to nowt.
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Rob I fully understand the hatred, and as such that many thousands will not mourn her (including myself) - but to actively celebrate her death crosses a line, IMHO.
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Wasn't it labour who first started closing the pits in the 70s?
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Thats someones mother and grandmother some of you are revelling in the death of.
Should be ashamed of yourselves, as for a minutes silence/ slow hand clap tomorrow - grow up FFS.
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Wasn't it labour who first started closing the pits in the 70s?
It was not Labour that promised a future and then stole it away.
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Whether people like revelling on Maggie's death or not, I am sure there will be tonnes of jokes flying around in the next couple of days
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Being born in the 90s and not actually being affected directly by her government I stop short of celebrating her death. However Im not going to judge those who do. If you went through hell I hope you enjoy this. Go nuts. I don't think people should preach from the moral high ground on this.
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:thumbsup:
Being born in the 90s and not actually being affected directly by her government I stop short of celebrating her death. However Im not going to judge those who do. If you went through hell I hope you enjoy this. Go nuts. I don't think people should preach from the moral high ground on this.
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Thatchers only been in Hell three hours, and already she's closed down three furnaces.
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Maggie Maggie Maggie,
Out Out Out
Giver her Spirit 2 months in Hell (where she belongs) and she'll be closing it down as not economically viable.
State funeral!!! You've got to be shitting me
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Apparently Register.ie reported that she died of a strike not a stroke on its twitter feed. Good old predictive text nearly getting it right.
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Maggie Thatcher's family have said they will honour her dying wish to be buried next to Jimmy Saville as they both loved to f*ck the miners
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Jimmy Saville
Maggie Thatcher
who fancies an Ian Brady hat trick this year?
Satan is calling in his flock
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Being born in the 90s and not actually being affected directly by her government I stop short of celebrating her death. However Im not going to judge those who do. If you went through hell I hope you enjoy this. Go nuts. I don't think people should preach from the moral high ground on this.
Moral high ground my arse! Not celebrating when someone dies isn't taking the moral high ground.
Like I said before, there's a difference between not being saddened by this death, and actually celebrating it.
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If you don't want to celebrate then don't. I take no offence in you not celebrating. People shouldn't knock those that do. She had a massive impact on many lives round here (and not just the miners). If people feel anger or a cause to hate somebody, then leave them to it
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If people feel anger or a cause to hate somebody, then leave them to it
I agree with that sentiment, but think that celebrating a death is a step too far. Just my opinion, also I am not personally offended by those celebrating, I just think it is wrong.
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Will you celebrate when Richardson dies?
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Will you celebrate when Richardson dies?
No, but I certainly will not mourn him. He's gone, history - the wrongs he did have been put right by JR and the subsequent boards at DRFC. I have nothing but disregard for Richardson, alive or dead.
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Anyone who revels in the death of another human being, ANY human being, needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
And that is all I am saying on this one.
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Intresting one this. W hat about Bin Laden, Hussain, Hitler etc. Can we not celebrate their deaths?
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Intresting one this. W hat about Bin Laden, Hussain, Hitler etc. Can we not celebrate their deaths?
I'm not sure Thatcher falls into the same category. They were all evil, evil men with an intention to kill innocent people.
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Intresting one this. W hat about Bin Laden, Hussain, Hitler etc. Can we not celebrate their deaths?
I'm not sure Thatcher falls into the same category. They were all evil, evil men with an intention to kill innocent people.
She undoubtedly does not fall into the same category but in response to Benny - no, I don't believe that celebrating death is the way that anyone should think or behave. When the likes of Hussein and Bin Laden died I was not happy. I wasn't sad either don't get me wrong, my thoughts and feelings on those days was tied to the victims and families of victims. I was perhaps relieved (there may be a better word for it than that tbh) for those people as maybe they felt a sense of justice and at least some consolation that the person/people who had hurt their family and friends was no longer walking this earth.
But happiness? God no. I think people who want to throw parties because a person dies has lost sight of what being human is about.
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Where someone is a dictator, or a despot or tyrant, and there is no democratic way of removing them from power, then celebrating their death is more about celebratign their removal from power.
This is not comparable to the UK and Mrs T.
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I should of added I wasn't comparing Thatcher to those. I was just using them to see your opinion on where your line was. I know Thatcher and the likes of those I mentioned are worlds apart.
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Thatchers only been in Hell three hours, and already she's closed down three furnaces.
Multi-lolz
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We will laugh,
the day that Thatcher dies,
even though we know it's not right,
we will dance and sing all night!
Thanks Hefner what a great song!
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Wasn't it labour who first started closing the pits in the 70s?
Pits like other industries come and go. The problem with Thatcher was that it was ideologicaly rather than economically driven - and she didn't do anything to bring employment in their place thus dooming those communities, and the steelworks, and the shipyards....
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On the day the blitz on the disabled got under way and in these times of cutbacks and austerity, I find it despicable that the Government will throw tax payers money at a Ceremonial Funeral for the bitch. Throw her down a mineshaft and be done with it!
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Wasn't it labour who first started closing the pits in the 70s?
Pits like other industries come and go. The problem with Thatcher was that it was ideologicaly rather than economically driven - and she didn't do anything to bring employment in their place thus dooming those communities, and the steelworks, and the shipyards....
Spot on She let a lot of people suffer because they lived in labour heartland.
Speaking to some ex Pit Moggies there were a few Pits shut down that were viable Darfield for one.but She was happy to buy cheap imported coal from places like Columbia where it was mined by 10 year old kids.
Not very forward thinking of her really.
But I admire her for her handling the Falklands crisis a Great War leader,can't think of any other Brit to match her.
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Wasn't it labour who first started closing the pits in the 70s?
Pits like other industries come and go. The problem with Thatcher was that it was ideologicaly rather than economically driven - and she didn't do anything to bring employment in their place thus dooming those communities, and the steelworks, and the shipyards....
I was under the impression that most of the pits were in fact losing money hand of fist and that is why she wanted them closed, therefore it was economically driven - but it became ideologically driven when Scargill foolishly challenged her. Lets not forget, the miners would have probably won, if Scargill had gone and got the vote from his union members instead of going into the strike without a mandate from his members.
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Her "legacy" is that she ripped the heart out of our manufacturing base (as did Reagan in the States) and the country has never been the same since. My Uncle and my cousin were both miners living in Moorends and communities such as that and countless others lost the central employer. Thatcher's government also sold off just about every asset that Britain had to the highest bidder.
No Prime Minister has driven the wedge into Britain more than Thatcher. Coal, steel, auto industry... all f**ked.
We moved from a manufacturing nation to a service industry.
Yes, you can debate about Scargill and the unions holding the country to ransom, but the long term damage of the Thatcher era still reverberates. Poll tax? The criminial justice bill? The Falkands War (the biggest distraction ever from the shit going on domestically - a tactic Bush would use after 9/11 to justify going into Iraq while liberties were taken away under the "Patriot Act").
Thatcher was the beginning of the end.
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Wasn't it labour who first started closing the pits in the 70s?
Pits like other industries come and go. The problem with Thatcher was that it was ideologicaly rather than economically driven - and she didn't do anything to bring employment in their place thus dooming those communities, and the steelworks, and the shipyards....
I was under the impression that most of the pits were in fact losing money hand of fist and that is why she wanted them closed, therefore it was economically driven - but it became ideologically driven when Scargill foolishly challenged her. Lets not forget, the miners would have probably won, if Scargill had gone and got the vote from his union members instead of going into the strike without a mandate from his members.
It became idealogical when Heaths Government fell in 1974, Joe Gormly was the NUM President then, when Thatcher became Tory Leader it was her sole ambition to destroy the Trade Unions, none of it was driven by economics!
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Anyone who revels in the death of another human being, ANY human being, needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
And that is all I am saying on this one.
She wasn't a human being.
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Interesting the praise Tony Blair has for her.
Ed Milliband looked as if he hadn't even heard of her.
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Wasn't it labour who first started closing the pits in the 70s?
Pits like other industries come and go. The problem with Thatcher was that it was ideologicaly rather than economically driven - and she didn't do anything to bring employment in their place thus dooming those communities, and the steelworks, and the shipyards....
I was under the impression that most of the pits were in fact losing money hand of fist and that is why she wanted them closed, therefore it was economically driven - but it became ideologically driven when Scargill foolishly challenged her. Lets not forget, the miners would have probably won, if Scargill had gone and got the vote from his union members instead of going into the strike without a mandate from his members.
It became idealogical when Heaths Government fell in 1974, Joe Gormly was the NUM President then, when Thatcher became Tory Leader it was her sole ambition to destroy the Trade Unions, none of it was driven by economics!
And after the winter of discontent they need to be be put back in their box to allow the elected government to run the country.
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I can understand people having issues with celebrating someones death. I like many here saw her destructive powers first hand during the miners strike with the Army dressed as Police and police without numbers so they could get away with beating miners. The soup kitchens will stick in my mind forever but then again she didn't believe in society. Are people saying it is always inappropriate to celebrate someones death? I'm not placing Thatcher in the same league as Hitler but was it OK that people celebrated his death? Is it a sliding scale or never acceptable. Genuine question.
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Anyone who revels in the death of another human being, ANY human being, needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
And that is all I am saying on this one.
She wasn't a human being.
Don't be silly FFS.
She may have been someone who fills you with hatred but yes, she was still a human being.
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Anyone who revels in the death of another human being, ANY human being, needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
And that is all I am saying on this one.
She wasn't a human being.
Don't be silly FFS.
She may have been someone who fills you with hatred but yes, she was still a human being.
It would be interesting to see the country we live in today had none of her policies been implemented.
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I can understand people having issues with celebrating someones death. I like many here saw her destructive powers first hand during the miners strike with the Army dressed as Police and police without numbers so they could get away with beating miners. The soup kitchens will stick in my mind forever but then again she didn't believe in society. Are people saying it is always inappropriate to celebrate someones death? I'm not placing Thatcher in the same league as Hitler but was it OK that people celebrated his death? Is it a sliding scale or never acceptable. Genuine question.
Dave, if it is someone like Saddam or Gaddaffi where the only way they will be removed from tyrannical power is when they die, then the celebration of death is more understandable especially if it leads to the end of their dictatorial regimes.
We live in a democracy and Maggie was gone from power for over 20 years, ousted by her own if you remember.
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So IDM you are saying that celebrating some deaths are OK then. Gadaffi and Saddam did no harm to me or my family directly although my Brother did end up in Iraq because of our disputes with Saddam twice. Gadaffi split the people of Libya in much the same way as Thatcher did/does in UK. I have heard it suggested that both were killed due to our desire for cheap oil not for what they did to their own people. Also Gadaffi's idea of a single currency for Africa based on a gold standard had America shitting itself
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I can understand people having issues with celebrating someones death. I like many here saw her destructive powers first hand during the miners strike with the Army dressed as Police and police without numbers so they could get away with beating miners. The soup kitchens will stick in my mind forever but then again she didn't believe in society. Are people saying it is always inappropriate to celebrate someones death? I'm not placing Thatcher in the same league as Hitler but was it OK that people celebrated his death? Is it a sliding scale or never acceptable. Genuine question.
Dave, if it is someone like Saddam or Gaddaffi where the only way they will be removed from tyrannical power is when they die, then the celebration of death is more understandable especially if it leads to the end of their dictatorial regimes.
We live in a democracy and Maggie was gone from power for over 20 years, ousted by her own if you remember.
Thatcher the staunch defender of democracy and best friends with General Pinochet, says all you need to know about the bitch!
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So IDM you are saying that celebrating some deaths are OK then. Gadaffi and Saddam did no harm to me or my family directly although my Brother did end up in Iraq because of our disputes with Saddam twice. Gadaffi split the people of Libya in much the same way as Thatcher did/does in UK. I have heard it suggested that both were killed due to our desire for cheap oil not for what they did to their own people. Also Gadaffi's idea of a single currency for Africa based on a gold standard had America shitting itself
No I said "more understandable", aiming that comment at those in those countries who suffered most and have no alternative to remove them from power.
I would rather have seen these brought to justice, as Saddam was - to a degree. I'd celebrate justice being done and dictatorships ending, rather than the death of an individual.
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Well someone on here earlier made the very pertinent point that one should always remember that he was a mother to someone. It gave me pause for thought and made me reflect on whether my instinct to celebrate her death was misplaced.
Then I remembered that her son is one of the most obnoxious excuses for a human being that this country has imposed on the worldliness the last 60 years so f*** the lot of 'em.
Bottoms up! Hic!
Like i've said, people mocking her death won't change the wrongs you perceive she has done. You can't rewrite the past, so enjoy your drink happy in the knowledge the same fate awaits you!
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Frosty. I'm not mocking her death. I am celebrating it. Very different.
As a great PM once said, just rejoice in the news.
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and Jimmy Savile. Also helped cover up with Hillsborough and covering up Pedophile activity of at least one of her ministers and previous PM Ted Heath.
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Frosty. I'm not mocking her death. I am celebrating it. Very different.
As a great PM once said, just rejoice in the news.
Mocking, celebrating. Still doesn't alter her legacy.
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Legacy?, c'mon Tory boy, elucidate.
As far as I can see any "legacy" has been dissipated over the intervening years.....and don't bring in council house sales into it. The biggest piece of asset stripping this country has seen. IMHO
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It would be interesting to see the country we live in today had none of her policies been implemented.
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Oh yes because the UK is all rainbows and lollipops and the moment.
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...and I'm torn tonight between a night of introspection, as my Dad died two years ago today. Or a quiet celebratory drink.
As he used to say "do what you feel, not what you think other people think is right." I'm not a hypocrite so cheers and bottoms up.
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Legacy?, c'mon Tory boy, elucidate.
As far as I can see any "legacy" has been dissipated over the intervening years.....and don't bring in council house sales into it. The biggest piece of asset stripping this country has seen. IMHO
Legacy, whether it be good or bad. How long is it since she was removed from office? And some people are still stuck in this time. How can anyone hope to move forward when they are still bitter and twisted about something that happened almost 30 years ago.
I wouldn't have the job I have today if it wasn't for privatisation. My mum would never have bought a house. She stood up to the trade unions who were holding the country to ransom. If only more politicians had her back bone, we might not be in the position we are in today.
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So what you are saying is that if Thatcher hadn't done what she had you'd have been, in the current political parlance, " benefits scrounger". Sorry young man, I don't buy it. I've already covered the Right to buy swindle. Standing up to the unions by using her "stormtroopers".
However, I'll give you she had backbone and we shall be seeing soon won't we.
Time for drinkee, nighty night boys
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So what you are saying is that if Thatcher hadn't done what she had you'd have been, in the current political parlance, " benefits scrounger". Sorry young man, I don't buy it. I've already covered the Right to buy swindle. Standing up to the unions by using her "stormtroopers".
However, I'll give you she had backbone and we shall be seeing soon won't we.
Time for drinkee, nighty night boys
I don't know what I would have been. Pointing out I wouldn't have the job I have today, with a company that employs thousands of people in the UK.
I'm pretty certain though, judging by the initial response as a whole on her death, she will be remembered as a great leader.
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Wasn't it labour who first started closing the pits in the 70s?
Pits like other industries come and go. The problem with Thatcher was that it was ideologicaly rather than economically driven - and she didn't do anything to bring employment in their place thus dooming those communities, and the steelworks, and the shipyards....
I was under the impression that most of the pits were in fact losing money hand of fist and that is why she wanted them closed, therefore it was economically driven - but it became ideologically driven when Scargill foolishly challenged her. Lets not forget, the miners would have probably won, if Scargill had gone and got the vote from his union members instead of going into the strike without a mandate from his members.
And that historically is the REAL truth behind it glosterred. Scargill fecked it up and led the miners over the cliff. They never got full national support and do you know why ; it was simply because they or rather him acted undemocratically.
I'm pleased to see the back of her but to celebrate her death is puerile in the extreme. Some need to grow up and yes I had 2 members of my family down the pits as well as many friends and neighbours. All of them said Arthur should have done it properly but stupidly/cockily he didn't.
Would anyone question that Donny is a better place now than in the 80's , hmmm perhaps some on here would which is scary.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t4-zDem1Sk
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When Jade Goody was dying and finally succumbed to cancer I found her plight horrific. No doubt some people didn't. Some even made jokes about it.
When Saddam Hussein was televised walking to the gallows and having a rope put round his neck I found it horrific viewing. No doubt some people didn't.
Maggie Thatcher's died and I find some of the comments from fellow human beings horrific.
It seems it is human nature for some people to have more humanity than others.
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...and I'm torn tonight between a night of introspection, as my Dad died two years ago today. Or a quiet celebratory drink.
As he used to say "do what you feel, not what you think other people think is right." I'm not a hypocrite so cheers and bottoms up.
Redwine, have that drink. Remember your Dad. Forget Thatcher.
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I'm the same bb I remember seeing that saddam video and it sickened me. No death should be rejoiced imo.
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This says all that needs to be said - turn up the volume and enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcXi-VYy_Yw
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And if that doesn't say it all - try this...........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1NyWbhCxZE
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I never realised she had such an influence on our music industry as well.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43wWYL9Kr6g
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Wasn't it labour who first started closing the pits in the 70s?
Pits like other industries come and go. The problem with Thatcher was that it was ideologicaly rather than economically driven - and she didn't do anything to bring employment in their place thus dooming those communities, and the steelworks, and the shipyards....
I was under the impression that most of the pits were in fact losing money hand of fist and that is why she wanted them closed, therefore it was economically driven - but it became ideologically driven when Scargill foolishly challenged her. Lets not forget, the miners would have probably won, if Scargill had gone and got the vote from his union members instead of going into the strike without a mandate from his members.
At the time the government were giving massive subsidies to farmers (and maybe still do for all I know). In the recent banking crises billions of pounds has been used to prop up failing banks. To what extent has the price of energy increased from 1984 to today? It was idealogically driven, if Thatcher had wanted to keep a coal/steel/engineering industry, she would have done.
Agree with your other points though.
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Legacy?, c'mon Tory boy, elucidate.
As far as I can see any "legacy" has been dissipated over the intervening years.....and don't bring in council house sales into it. The biggest piece of asset stripping this country has seen. IMHO
Can you elucidate on that nonsense please redwine ? We would more than likely be so far in the shite today that life would be almost unbearable.
The balance of power was wrong and she corrected it, she got many things wrong but you have to wonder why the world admired her. Think outside of the box. the 'legacy' has dissipated due to years of the weakest governments ever seen under the ...........labour party. :headbang:
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Legacy?, c'mon Tory boy, elucidate.
As far as I can see any "legacy" has been dissipated over the intervening years.....and don't bring in council house sales into it. The biggest piece of asset stripping this country has seen. IMHO
Can you elucidate on that nonsense please redwine ? We would more than likely be so far in the shite today that life would be almost unbearable.
The balance of power was wrong and she corrected it, she got many things wrong but you have to wonder why the world admired her. Think outside of the box. the 'legacy' has dissipated due to years of the weakest governments ever seen under the ...........labour party. :headbang:
Her legacy was to divide society, make the rich richer and the poor poorer. She manipulated the press to turn family against family (Orgreave).
I suspect that those who have any empathy for her were not touched by the effects of her destruction of society.
She set the chain of events in motion that has resulted in society being so divided many dont even know their neighbours and wont help someone when theyre getting mugged in the street,
I was a miner fresh out of my apprenticeship and lost my house and spent many years re-building my credit rating because of her artificially engineered catalyst for the miners strike (Cortonwood).
I've enjoyed a fine bottle of wine tonight happier that I can let go of the pent up years of anger that bitch inflicted upon me.
And before you start defending her, look on any northern football forum and see the unified contempt for her - theres a damn site more celebrating that mourning.
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When Jade Goody was dying and finally succumbed to cancer I found her plight horrific. No doubt some people didn't. Some even made jokes about it.
When Saddam Hussein was televised walking to the gallows and having a rope put round his neck I found it horrific viewing. No doubt some people didn't.
Maggie Thatcher's died and I find some of the comments from fellow human beings horrific.
It seems it is human nature for some people to have more humanity than others.
+1 well said and grown-up words that some could do well to think over but I doubt it.
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If she was genuine in her wish for mass home ownership she should have thought it out better.. To not reinvest that money into replacing the sold stock was stupid at best, inept at worst.
Now we have a situation where those who either couldn't afford to buy or who don't approve of these houses being sold in the first place are being bullied out of their homes.
So, there you go Steve, asset stripping. :(
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http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/45966
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Legacy?, c'mon Tory boy, elucidate.
As far as I can see any "legacy" has been dissipated over the intervening years.....and don't bring in council house sales into it. The biggest piece of asset stripping this country has seen. IMHO
Can you elucidate on that nonsense please redwine ? We would more than likely be so far in the shite today that life would be almost unbearable.
The balance of power was wrong and she corrected it, she got many things wrong but you have to wonder why the world admired her. Think outside of the box. the 'legacy' has dissipated due to years of the weakest governments ever seen under the ...........labour party. :headbang:
Hoola.
You've clearly bought into the hagiography of Thatcher "saving" Britain from economic disaster. The truth is actually rather different.
Between 1955 and 1979, the average UK economic growth rate after inflation was 2.1%. Between 1980 and 2008, the average UK economic growth rate after inflation was... (go on...have a guess).
The truth is that our economic performance neither improved nor worsened a jot after Thatcher. What DID happen that that a massive shift occurred from poor to rich, from Industry to Finance and from North to South. She ushered in an era in which the smart, pushy, savvy individualist could get very, very successful. But given that overall economic performance was no better than it had been before her, that had to have a cost. The cost was that everyone else shared less in economic growth and the proceeds got concentrated more and more in fewer and fewer hands.
And that is not MY take. That is the simple, checkable fact. In 1979, for every £1 that GDP grew by, median wages went up by 90p. In 2008, the increase in median wages was 57p. Have a guess where the difference has gone?
IF that shift of the rewards to a tiny percentage of leading entrepreneurs had transformed our economic performance, if it had given us much higher economic growth, I might swallow it. But it didn't. It didn't change it by one iota. We still grow at the rate that we did in the era when we were supposedly the Sick Man of Europe and the Unions were in charge. So what's happened is that we're all working harder but taking a smaller share of the cake than we used to do. And the cake is growing no quicker than it used to do. So our hard work is doing nothing but to lining the pockets of those at the top. That is why we've ended up with a culture (supported by Blair & Mandelson to their eternal disgrace) where the last time we had such a split between the wages of the most highly paid 1% and those of the bottom 50% was just before the Great Depression.
THAT is the revolution that Thatcher brought to this country. And that is ONE reason why I despised the bitch with a vengeance at the time and why I'm happy that she's gone now.
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And here's another reason why I despised the bitch at the time and why I am glad she has gone now. When General Pinochet died 7 years back, Thatcher said she was "greatly saddened". Prior to that, she called him "this country's staunch, true friend".
This was a dictator who overthrew a democratically elected Government (Communist, sure, but a Govt that had won a free and fair election) and proceeded to have up to 100,000 political opponents imprisoned, many thousands tortured and up to 3,000 assassinated. Just today it's been announced that the body of the Nobel Prize winning Chilean poet Pablo Neruda is to be exhumed for a new post-mortem. Pinochet's Govt claimed he died of cancer, but it's long been believed that he was poisoned by the junta because of his left-wing politics and his charismatic popularity.
Now, I don't know about you, but personally, I didn't and don't want to call a Kitson like Pinochet a friend of my country.
But to Thatcher he was a role model. He had faced down the left wing "enemy within" and imposed a free-market economy on Chile a few years before Thatcher came to power. The arch-Thatcherite economic historian Niall Ferguson discussed Pinochet's revolution a few years ago on TV. He said "Is it acceptable to overthrow a Govt and to imprison, torture and kill opponents if it sets your country on the right economic path? I think it is."
Given Thatcher's devotion to Pinochet (even before he helped out in the Falklands War) what lengths do you think she would have gone to in order to defeat her "enemy within"? Think Orgreave. Think Hillsborough.
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BST,Stockton, I understand your reasons for the anti-Thatcher feelings, and the hatred etc. But did you celebrate when she was ousted from power by her own party? Why wait until she has died?
You hate her for what she and her government did - I doubt you knew her well enough to judge her on her private persona, with her family etc?
I was very aware of what was going on economically and politically during the Thatcher years. Did I want her out and her policies put right? Hell yes! Do I care that she is no longer with us? No not really. Am I celebrating her death? No, not at all.
We'll disagree on this I know, and I'm not trying to tell you what to believe or to say at all, it is just that celebrating a person's death in our country, is sick.
And yes, before anyone asks, I would extend that to paedos etc who I would rather are caught, sentenced and have to live with their guilt and the reprisals doled out by fellow inmates.
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Some of the comments on here are more than disgusting.
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Some of the comments on here are more than disgusting.
Her support for General Pinochet, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge were more than disgusting, her destruction of the Coal, Steel, Shibuilding, Automotive, Railway, Print industries etc, all in her obsessive desire to destroy the Trade unions and the working class, whilst de regulating the banking industry, and lining the pockets of the greedy bankers, ensured the North was left a desolate industrial wasteland while the South and her rich friends prospered!
That was and still is more than disgusting!
May she burn in the bowels of the Earth for all eternity, the evil cow!
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If people believe it is appropriate to celebrate her death then that is their choice, I never lived through her time in office and so it is probably unfair for me to judge. The only thing I will say is that an elderly woman, mother and grandmother who suffered with elements of dementia has died after a stroke, for me there is nothing to celebrate, but I know others will disagree and as I say I'm not judging them here.
She is perhaps, and will forever remain one of the most divisive figures to the British electorate. As Andrew Marr said about her "Think not of her as a political leader, think of her as a hurricane in human form". I was born in 1992, I didn't live through the 80's and the struggle of the working class families that were affected by Mrs Thatcher's Britain. My family was affected like most in the North when Mrs Thatcher reduced the industrial part of Britain. I'm not going to try and deny that she was responsible (whether solely or not is irrelevant) for the downfall and struggle of many families in what were industrial areas of the country.
But, there as several facts that we must remember about the Iron Lady here: She was polled as both the most unpopular and popular Prime Minister since polling began, she was the longest serving British Prime Minister of the 20th Century and both the first female leader of a British Political Party and of course the first female British Prime Minister, but truth be told after the Winter of Discontent in 1979 I doubt there was a better man for the job.
The fact that the majority of her policies still remain a consensus in British Politics today, 4 Prime Ministers, both Labour and Conservative governments and 5 General Elections later tells us all we need to know about how much she influenced this country. I may not have been alive when Maggie was in office, but I would be a fool if I didn't believe I grew up in Thatcher's Britain.
There is a discussion on this thread and also in the media at the moment debating what is/was Maggie's Legacy? I think that one is quite simple: Undefeated. She was undefeated at the Faulklands, undefeated against the trade unions and most importantly undefeated at every General Election she stood as the candidate to become/remain Prime Minister. Yes, I agree her premiership was lucky and she was also lucky in her opponents, it was tough for many people in the country and many families have never since recovered, I'm not debating that here because it doesn't change her legacy of remaining undefeated, and neither does her death.
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Undefeated, apart from in the end by her own party, of course...
:lol:
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Even then, she stood down (albeit on the advice of the majority of her cabinet). She wasn't defeated in the leadership contest. Stabbed in the back by her own party; yes. Defeated? No.
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Her "legacy" is that she ripped the heart out of our manufacturing base (as did Reagan in the States) and the country has never been the same since. My Uncle and my cousin were both miners living in Moorends and communities such as that and countless others lost the central employer. Thatcher's government also sold off just about every asset that Britain had to the highest bidder.
No Prime Minister has driven the wedge into Britain more than Thatcher. Coal, steel, auto industry... all f***ed.
We moved from a manufacturing nation to a service industry.
Yes, you can debate about Scargill and the unions holding the country to ransom, but the long term damage of the Thatcher era still reverberates. Poll tax? The criminial justice bill? The Falkands War (the biggest distraction ever from the shit going on domestically - a tactic Bush would use after 9/11 to justify going into Iraq while liberties were taken away under the "Patriot Act").
Thatcher was the beginning of the end.
All 3 of those industries were f**ked long before Maggie came into town. They were busted flushes mate not thriving businesses.
British Leyland was a wildcat strike ridden mess making shite cars in a shite way against German and Japanese products, the demand for coal was diminishing and could be had from elsewhere at far cheaper prices per tonne as well as the move to nuclear power and Steel was in a similar position to the car industry in that it was over priced compared to the cheaper availability of foreign imports.
The very fact that we had a Management v. Unions conflict at virtually every turn with neither being mature enough to compromise had hastened the demise of all of these industries.
Please take the rose (red) tinted glasses off and do some homework. The only area where we excelled at that time was in specialist steels and the highest grade coal and certainly NOT in the Motor Industry.
Alot of the blame , if blame should be attached at all, should have been laid at the feet of totally intransigent Management (who weren't allowed/trained to manage) and Unions (again untrained and unrealistic about the demands of their business) hellbent on bringing down a Conservative Government.
That is the reality and if we had continued down that path , we would have been bankrupt long before the banks grabbed our money!!
It's impossible to keep 'dishing out' more and more money to employees of poorly run industries especially when trying to compete with the emerging 3rd world labour costs at that time.
Tell me I'm wrong.................
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Some of the comments on here are more than disgusting.
Her support for General Pinochet, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge were more than disgusting, her destruction of the Coal, Steel, Shibuilding, Automotive, Railway, Print industries etc, all in her obsessive desire to destroy the Trade unions and the working class, whilst de regulating the banking industry, and lining the pockets of the greedy bankers, ensured the North was left a desolate industrial wasteland while the South and her rich friends prospered!
That was and still is more than disgusting!
May she burn in the bowels of the Earth for all eternity, the evil cow!
All that means is that she will not be mourned nor missed, by many, including myself.
Doesn't mean her death is worth celebrating.
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I couldn't have put this any better. However I'm nowhere near as good as this great man of our time. Ladies and Gents I give you the words of Morrissey:
"Thatcher is remembered as The Iron Lady only because she possessed completely negative traits such as persistent stubbornness and a determined refusal to listen to others.
Every move she made was charged by negativity; she destroyed the British manufacturing industry, she hated the miners, she hated the arts, she hated the Irish Freedom Fighters and allowed them to die, she hated the English poor and did nothing at all to help them, she hated Greenpeace and environmental protectionists, she was the only European political leader who opposed a ban on the Ivory Trade, she had no wit and no warmth and even her own Cabinet booted her out.
She gave the order to blow up The Belgrano even though it was outside of the Malvinas Exclusion Zone - and was sailing AWAY from the islands.
When the young Argentinian boys aboard The Belgrano had suffered a most appalling and unjust death, Thatcher gave the thumbs up sign for the British press. Iron? No. Barbaric? Yes.
She hated feminists even though it was largely due to the progression of the women's movement that the British people allowed themselves to accept that a Prime Minister could actually be female.
But because of Thatcher, there will never again be another woman in power in British politics, and rather than opening that particular door for other women, she closed it.
Thatcher will only be fondly remembered by sentimentalists who did not suffer under her leadership, but the majority of British working people have forgotten her already, and the people of Argentina will be celebrating her death.
As a matter of recorded fact, Thatcher was a terror without an atom of humanity,"
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Some of the comments on here are more than disgusting.
Her support for General Pinochet, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge were more than disgusting, her destruction of the Coal, Steel, Shibuilding, Automotive, Railway, Print industries etc, all in her obsessive desire to destroy the Trade unions and the working class, whilst de regulating the banking industry, and lining the pockets of the greedy bankers, ensured the North was left a desolate industrial wasteland while the South and her rich friends prospered!
That was and still is more than disgusting!
May she burn in the bowels of the Earth for all eternity, the evil cow!
All that means is that she will not be mourned nor missed, by many, including myself.
Doesn't mean her death is worth celebrating.
Of course it doesn't IDM but it seems to be symptomatic of the age we live in . There were many to blame for that era and that INCLUDES the numbskulls running the businesses and those supposedly taking care of their workforces i.e the Unions. I worked in the Industrial Relations sector at the time and it was impossible for both sides to compromise seemingly.
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I couldn't have put this any better. However I'm nowhere near as good as this great man of our time. Ladies and Gents I give you the words of Morrissey:
"Thatcher is remembered as The Iron Lady only because she possessed completely negative traits such as persistent stubbornness and a determined refusal to listen to others.
Every move she made was charged by negativity; she destroyed the British manufacturing industry, she hated the miners, she hated the arts, she hated the Irish Freedom Fighters and allowed them to die, she hated the English poor and did nothing at all to help them, she hated Greenpeace and environmental protectionists, she was the only European political leader who opposed a ban on the Ivory Trade, she had no wit and no warmth and even her own Cabinet booted her out.
She gave the order to blow up The Belgrano even though it was outside of the Malvinas Exclusion Zone - and was sailing AWAY from the islands.
When the young Argentinian boys aboard The Belgrano had suffered a most appalling and unjust death, Thatcher gave the thumbs up sign for the British press. Iron? No. Barbaric? Yes.
She hated feminists even though it was largely due to the progression of the women's movement that the British people allowed themselves to accept that a Prime Minister could actually be female.
But because of Thatcher, there will never again be another woman in power in British politics, and rather than opening that particular door for other women, she closed it.
Thatcher will only be fondly remembered by sentimentalists who did not suffer under her leadership, but the majority of British working people have forgotten her already, and the people of Argentina will be celebrating her death.
As a matter of recorded fact, Thatcher was a terror without an atom of humanity,"
I find it ironic that Morrissey can call anyone negative.
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Go on then Mr Ticket Sales Man, where's the negativity in Morrissey?
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Go on then Mr Ticket Sales Man, where's the negativity in Morrissey?
Have you read any of his lyrics?
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That wasn't the question, was it
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I couldn't have put this any better. However I'm nowhere near as good as this great man of our time. Ladies and Gents I give you the words of Morrissey:
"Thatcher is remembered as The Iron Lady only because she possessed completely negative traits such as persistent stubbornness and a determined refusal to listen to others.
Every move she made was charged by negativity; she destroyed the British manufacturing industry, she hated the miners, she hated the arts, she hated the Irish Freedom Fighters and allowed them to die, she hated the English poor and did nothing at all to help them, she hated Greenpeace and environmental protectionists, she was the only European political leader who opposed a ban on the Ivory Trade, she had no wit and no warmth and even her own Cabinet booted her out.
She gave the order to blow up The Belgrano even though it was outside of the Malvinas Exclusion Zone - and was sailing AWAY from the islands.
When the young Argentinian boys aboard The Belgrano had suffered a most appalling and unjust death, Thatcher gave the thumbs up sign for the British press. Iron? No. Barbaric? Yes.
She hated feminists even though it was largely due to the progression of the women's movement that the British people allowed themselves to accept that a Prime Minister could actually be female.
But because of Thatcher, there will never again be another woman in power in British politics, and rather than opening that particular door for other women, she closed it.
Thatcher will only be fondly remembered by sentimentalists who did not suffer under her leadership, but the majority of British working people have forgotten her already, and the people of Argentina will be celebrating her death.
As a matter of recorded fact, Thatcher was a terror without an atom of humanity,"
Cussie often agree with you but on this occasion not a chance. There's far too much supposition in your post, little based on facts i.e. your point about the Belgrano.......that ship had been sailing in and out of the exclusion zone continually. Would you have been happier if more of our lads had died at the hands of this crew ?
See my points above re. this supposedly thriving manufacturing industry , it quite patently wasn't as some would have others believe anywhere near thriving or indeed competitive internationally at that time. Our heavy industries were fooked mate by bad management of the workforces trying to compete with the emerging 3rd. world with both their higher rates of productivity and lower costs in both raw materials and labour.
'She hated feminists' , really where did you get this from ? As far as I remember , she was actually looking for more females in management and pushed for equality of pay. What she actually hated was far left feminists and that's really the point I think you are trying to make ?
Whilst I agree that the tactics went far beyond the pale when dealing with the peaceful 'non-ballotted' miners and those allied to them and the monstrosity that was the Poll tax .
She should have of course let those free Irishmen attack us at will without fear or impunity.
Those labour reforms remain on the statute book Cussie why ? Because they made common sense to both the left and right in this country. Yes our local folk got hurt but some of these reforms had to take place otherwise by now we would have gone down the pan.
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That wasn't the question, was it
Frosty, I get the feeling you're now frantically Googling Smiths/Morrissey songs now, as you don't seen so quick in your replies.
Speak later Captain
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Why would I need to Google them when I own pretty much the entire discography.
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, i had Friends and relatives who were miners during the strike need i say more.
So, that makes it okay to rejoice in her death? What do you actually know about the miners strike?
She was pure evil!
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cartoon/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-steve-bell-cartoon
:thumbsup:
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To quote the epitaph of Sir Christopher Wren: "'Reader, if you seek his memorial - look around you."
The legacy of Thatcher is what we have now, 30 plus years of "there is no such thing as society" greed and individualistic thinking. It has produced a massively wealthy, peaceful society which is innovative and forward thinking. Of course it hasn't. In my youth I never saw a homeless person on the street, didn't know family's under threat of losing their homes, lived in a country that made things and was far more equal. That could not be tolerated by the greedy and unscrupulous, they wanted to move their wealth out and ensure the walls they built around themnselves could never be breached. There are now 32 Trillion dollars in the British Virgin Isles alone hidden away by the elite of this world. It is a marvellous society Thatcherism built, enjoy it if you can stomach it, it makes me ashamed to think that we spawned such a nasty, ignorant and heinous situation.
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, i had Friends and relatives who were miners during the strike need i say more.
So, that makes it okay to rejoice in her death? What do you actually know about the miners strike?
She was pure evil!
I couldn’t agree more and reading the plaudits on here, which is essentially a Doncaster forum, makes my skin crawl. This woman orchestrated a ‘managed’ decline of the industrial north. She never gave a toss about people living in this town. She did more damage to UK industries than the Luftwaffe ever did. The motor industry, mining, steel, fishing, textile, were destroyed in the wake of her policies. She championed Britain on the world stage yet chose to import coal and steel from Eastern Europe. This evil cow channelled money away from working classes to line the pockets of her flag waving little Englanders. People said she had balls of steel… what a load of crap. She was untouchable and used the London Met police force as her own private army. The sad thing is she could see no wrong in her ways but because of her our once proud communities now suffer from social deprivation, crime, and poverty.
For the chap on here who suggested the miner’s strike should have been conducted with a mandate? It wouldn’t have made a blind bit of difference. Scargill suggested the Tories (hidden agenda) and ultimate aim was to shut 90% of the mines by the year 2000. Thatcher accused him of being a sensationalist and mocked this very assertion.
I won’t be celebrating her death. Celebrating requires energy and I’ve spent enough of that despising the evil tyrant whilst she was alive.
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I seem to recall the government made quite a big deal of the miners' strike not being properly mandated - thus justifying (to them) their strong arm tactics in dealing with it.
At the time I believed it would be much simpler for Scargill to call a proper ballot, and then take the strike action that he would certainly have the proper mandate for.
That aside, Maggie Thatcher has been out of power for around 22 years - whether or not her wrongs have since been put right by successive governments is another debate, as clearly many haven't.
By all means criticise what she did, in debates and discussions about her legacy, but celebrating a death is still wrong. How does celebrating her death make any difference to her legacy? Is our country going to change for the better now she has passed away 22 years after leaving the office of PM?
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, i had Friends and relatives who were miners during the strike need i say more.
So, that makes it okay to rejoice in her death? What do you actually know about the miners strike?
She was pure evil!
I couldn’t agree more and reading the plaudits on here, which is essentially a Doncaster forum, makes my skin crawl. This woman orchestrated a ‘managed’ decline of the industrial north. She never gave a toss about people living in this town. She did more damage to UK industries than the Luftwaffe ever did. The motor industry, mining, steel, fishing, textile, were destroyed in the wake of her policies. She championed Britain on the world stage yet chose to import coal and steel from Eastern Europe. This evil cow channelled money away from working classes to line the pockets of her flag waving little Englanders. People said she had balls of steel… what a load of crap. She was untouchable and used the London Met police force as her own private army. The sad thing is she could see no wrong in her ways but because of her our once proud communities now suffer from social deprivation, crime, and poverty.
For the chap on here who suggested the miner’s strike should have been conducted with a mandate? It wouldn’t have made a blind bit of difference. Scargill suggested the Tories (hidden agenda) and ultimate aim was to shut 90% of the mines by the year 2000. Thatcher accused him of being a sensationalist and mocked this very assertion.
I won’t be celebrating her death. Celebrating requires energy and I’ve spent enough of that despising the evil tyrant whilst she was alive.
Why , do you think we should all be some sort of left wing class warriors because we come from this town. You said it earlier in your post 'she managed a decline of the industrial North', did she really and do you seriously think that decline was brought about by her or her policies ? We were already way down the path of decline due to internal and exterior circumstances as I've posted earlier before. Management and Unions failed to grasp/didn't give a flying fook about the situation, I know I worked as an intermediary in wage negotiations between both parties at that time..........it was a frigging mess fella. There was no working together , no compromise, zero dialogue, zilch respect about how both parties wanted to move their businesses on to become more productive and therefore competitive. I used to be in wage negotiations where different unions were scrapping with each other for a bigger slice of a small cake etc. The unions I was dealing with at that time wanted 15-20% pay rises, more rest days, shorter working hours etc. and on most occasions the businesses could only stand a max of 4/5% to stay in profit and move the business on. It was a recipe for disaster, a free for all if you like . Neither side was willing to seriously debate the futures of their businesses and of course the part that the stakeholders (employees) could play in that. Poorly trained management and leaders of workforces that would never see the bigger picture and of course the futures of their business and employment. It needed sorting, it beggared belief. I'm fed-up of folk glossing over the weaknesses of all and I mean ALL sides at that time. To compete with the emerging power houses in the Far East as well as our traditional competitors we had to TALK but we were basically in most cases inept and a free for all ensued until it was checked.
This period was driven by greed at a time when clear minds, clever strategies and compromise were needed. Quite simply we were poor and blaming all of that on Maggie is a joke unlike the stupidity of those opening bottles of champers yesterday. Many of them were more than likely around those negotiating tables in the 80's!
Was there a winner? Unlike BST's contention that there were many winners who waltzed off with the cash..........there clearly wasn't.
Today business is more professionally run , union reps are correctly trained and are able to see the needs of the businesses they work in and unlike 30 years ago most of us have decent lives.
Love her, hate her it's irrelevant now we have moved on and it's hightime some on here now started doing the same.
THE IRON LADY IS DEAD OK.
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Hoola.
You've clearly bought into the hagiography of Thatcher "saving" Britain from economic disaster. The truth is actually rather different.
Between 1955 and 1979, the average UK economic growth rate after inflation was 2.1%. Between 1980 and 2008, the average UK economic growth rate after inflation was... (go on...have a guess).
The truth is that our economic performance neither improved nor worsened a jot after Thatcher. What DID happen that that a massive shift occurred from poor to rich, from Industry to Finance and from North to South. She ushered in an era in which the smart, pushy, savvy individualist could get very, very successful. But given that overall economic performance was no better than it had been before her, that had to have a cost. The cost was that everyone else shared less in economic growth and the proceeds got concentrated more and more in fewer and fewer hands.
And that is not MY take. That is the simple, checkable fact. In 1979, for every £1 that GDP grew by, median wages went up by 90p. In 2008, the increase in median wages was 57p. Have a guess where the difference has gone?
IF that shift of the rewards to a tiny percentage of leading entrepreneurs had transformed our economic performance, if it had given us much higher economic growth, I might swallow it. But it didn't. It didn't change it by one iota. We still grow at the rate that we did in the era when we were supposedly the Sick Man of Europe and the Unions were in charge. So what's happened is that we're all working harder but taking a smaller share of the cake than we used to do. And the cake is growing no quicker than it used to do. So our hard work is doing nothing but to lining the pockets of those at the top. That is why we've ended up with a culture (supported by Blair & Mandelson to their eternal disgrace) where the last time we had such a split between the wages of the most highly paid 1% and those of the bottom 50% was just before the Great Depression.
THAT is the revolution that Thatcher brought to this country. And that is ONE reason why I despised the bitch with a vengeance at the time and why I'm happy that she's gone now.
Add to that, the only thing that kept things growing since then, is they were lucky enough to be around when they were able to start exploiting North Sea oil.
Without that she would have been out of office long before.
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To quote the epitaph of Sir Christopher Wren: "'Reader, if you seek his memorial - look around you."
The legacy of Thatcher is what we have now, 30 plus years of "there is no such thing as society" greed and individualistic thinking. It has produced a massively wealthy, peaceful society which is innovative and forward thinking. Of course it hasn't. In my youth I never saw a homeless person on the street, didn't know family's under threat of losing their homes, lived in a country that made things and was far more equal. That could not be tolerated by the greedy and unscrupulous, they wanted to move their wealth out and ensure the walls they built around themnselves could never be breached. There are now 32 Trillion dollars in the British Virgin Isles alone hidden away by the elite of this world. It is a marvellous society Thatcherism built, enjoy it if you can stomach it, it makes me ashamed to think that we spawned such a nasty, ignorant and heinous situation.
What nonsense Will , there were as many homeless and hungry folk on the streets of Doncaster in our youth and you bloody know it. Of course we also had a beautiful and shiny town too didn't we ?
Don't let the realities of 30-40 years ago slip from your mind and fool you just because you want to be called a socialist. The reality was that we lived in a dirty, rundown town where folk worked bloody long hours underground or in a steelmill with all the attached industrial diseases and danger that went with it and btw there wasn't alot to go around for the vast majority pre or post Thatcher. Sorry fella but that's my memory, now if you can point out what the average Doncastrian doesn't have now that they had then then I would have to seriously reconsider your post.
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I was too young to remember when Thatcher was in office, but as someone who grew up as part of a mining family, in a couple of villages where the pits had been closed, while I won't be celebrating her death myself I certainly won't begrudge anyone who chooses to do so. And that's all I'm really qualified to say on the matter.
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[/quote]I seem to recall the government made quite a big deal of the miners' strike not being properly mandated - thus justifying (to them) their strong arm tactics in dealing with it.
At the time I believed it would be much simpler for Scargill to call a proper ballot, and then take the strike action that he would certainly have the proper mandate for.
That aside, Maggie Thatcher has been out of power for around 22 years - whether or not her wrongs have since been put right by successive governments is another debate, as clearly many haven't.
By all means criticise what she did, in debates and discussions about her legacy, but celebrating a death is still wrong. How does celebrating her death make any difference to her legacy? Is our country going to change for the better now she has passed away 22 years after leaving the office of PM?
Life is about choices and if people choose to celebrate her death then it’s their given right. Far be it for you or I to cast aspersions on the integrity of others.
Thatcher made it illegal to strike without mandate, spitefully done to suppress the power of the unions, who incidentally she detested with venom. The miners voted with their feet, hence the vast majority went on strike. With a ballot they would have still voted to go on strike. Scargill voiced concern that Thatcher was out to systematically shut down pits and close down the mining industry. Striking was the only means available to safeguard jobs. This was categorically refuted by Thatcher who stated only 20 mines would close. She described Scargill as a scaremonger, troublemaker and liar…. but ultimately it was her peddling lies.
I respect the fact you do not wish to celebrate the death of Thatcher but your personal view isn’t shared by people living on the consequence of Thatcherite policies. I can perfectly understand why people do want to celebrate, even 22-years after she was booted out. I have seen communities and village wrecked by her politics, and suffer still with social problems in 2013. Today’s society is reaping from what was sowed in Thatcher’s years as Prime Minister. What makes matters worse is that Cameron is an extension of Thatcherite ideology, only he cannot raise funds by selling off utilities or closing down industries because there’s nothing left to sell or close down.
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To quote the epitaph of Sir Christopher Wren: "'Reader, if you seek his memorial - look around you."
The legacy of Thatcher is what we have now, 30 plus years of "there is no such thing as society" greed and individualistic thinking. It has produced a massively wealthy, peaceful society which is innovative and forward thinking. Of course it hasn't. In my youth I never saw a homeless person on the street, didn't know family's under threat of losing their homes, lived in a country that made things and was far more equal. That could not be tolerated by the greedy and unscrupulous, they wanted to move their wealth out and ensure the walls they built around themnselves could never be breached. There are now 32 Trillion dollars in the British Virgin Isles alone hidden away by the elite of this world. It is a marvellous society Thatcherism built, enjoy it if you can stomach it, it makes me ashamed to think that we spawned such a nasty, ignorant and heinous situation.
What nonsense Will , there were as many homeless and hungry folk on the streets of Doncaster in our youth and you bloody know it. Of course we also had a beautiful and shiny town too didn't we ?
Don't let the realities of 30-40 years ago slip from your mind and fool you just because you want to be called a socialist. The reality was that we lived in a dirty, rundown town where folk worked bloody long hours underground or in a steelmill with all the attached industrial diseases and danger that went with it and btw there wasn't alot to go around for the vast majority pre or post Thatcher. Sorry fella but that's my memory, now if you can point out what the average Doncastrian doesn't have now that they had then then I would have to seriously reconsider your post.
ICI, International Harvesters/McCormicks, Plant Works, Coal Mines, Shipyard (Thorne), Pilkington Glass.
Many thousands of jobs that were never replaced, the ones that were replaced were on the minimum wage, massive amounts of money was taken out of the local economy, and even today the area suffers from the brutal policies of Thatcher!
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To quote the epitaph of Sir Christopher Wren: "'Reader, if you seek his memorial - look around you."
The legacy of Thatcher is what we have now, 30 plus years of "there is no such thing as society" greed and individualistic thinking. It has produced a massively wealthy, peaceful society which is innovative and forward thinking. Of course it hasn't. In my youth I never saw a homeless person on the street, didn't know family's under threat of losing their homes, lived in a country that made things and was far more equal. That could not be tolerated by the greedy and unscrupulous, they wanted to move their wealth out and ensure the walls they built around themnselves could never be breached. There are now 32 Trillion dollars in the British Virgin Isles alone hidden away by the elite of this world. It is a marvellous society Thatcherism built, enjoy it if you can stomach it, it makes me ashamed to think that we spawned such a nasty, ignorant and heinous situation.
What nonsense Will , there were as many homeless and hungry folk on the streets of Doncaster in our youth and you bloody know it. Of course we also had a beautiful and shiny town too didn't we ?
Don't let the realities of 30-40 years ago slip from your mind and fool you just because you want to be called a socialist. The reality was that we lived in a dirty, rundown town where folk worked bloody long hours underground or in a steelmill with all the attached industrial diseases and danger that went with it and btw there wasn't alot to go around for the vast majority pre or post Thatcher. Sorry fella but that's my memory, now if you can point out what the average Doncastrian doesn't have now that they had then then I would have to seriously reconsider your post.
It may have been a dirty old town but at least it was pulling things out of the ground, adding value to them and selling them. This is real wealth.
Industry in the North had suffered through a lack of investment and modernisation for years. Thatchers solution was to close it all down, what easier way to destroy the unions than to close all their industry? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a colossal understatement.
Where there had been steel mills they built shopping malls and superstores, they liberalised finance which released a tidal wave of credit which helped create the housing bubble we have now and the mountain of debt that is bringing our economy down.
If only we had been a bit more like the Germans and invested in manufacturing, instead of casinos.
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To quote the epitaph of Sir Christopher Wren: "'Reader, if you seek his memorial - look around you."
The legacy of Thatcher is what we have now, 30 plus years of "there is no such thing as society" greed and individualistic thinking. It has produced a massively wealthy, peaceful society which is innovative and forward thinking. Of course it hasn't. In my youth I never saw a homeless person on the street, didn't know family's under threat of losing their homes, lived in a country that made things and was far more equal. That could not be tolerated by the greedy and unscrupulous, they wanted to move their wealth out and ensure the walls they built around themnselves could never be breached. There are now 32 Trillion dollars in the British Virgin Isles alone hidden away by the elite of this world. It is a marvellous society Thatcherism built, enjoy it if you can stomach it, it makes me ashamed to think that we spawned such a nasty, ignorant and heinous situation.
What nonsense Will , there were as many homeless and hungry folk on the streets of Doncaster in our youth and you bloody know it. Of course we also had a beautiful and shiny town too didn't we ?
Don't let the realities of 30-40 years ago slip from your mind and fool you just because you want to be called a socialist. The reality was that we lived in a dirty, rundown town where folk worked bloody long hours underground or in a steelmill with all the attached industrial diseases and danger that went with it and btw there wasn't alot to go around for the vast majority pre or post Thatcher. Sorry fella but that's my memory, now if you can point out what the average Doncastrian doesn't have now that they had then then I would have to seriously reconsider your post.
Of course there was poverty in the 60s and 70s but the gap between the wealthy and poor was a fraction of the size it is now. Let's not forget also we have moved on substantially in technology and health awareness since the 70s. Today we have the ability to protect miners from industrial disease and capacity to produce clean coal, which of course is irrelevant now as the mines are closed. I grew up in the 60 and 70s, the community was strong, the streets were safe, and respect was for elders was the norm. Can you say the same about today? Thatcherite ideology is based on selfishness and greed and we are experiencing the consequences now. I’m not saying the socialist, or Labour way, was the route forward in the 70s. Clearly the world was changing but instead of implementing gradual change, like the Netherlands, Germany, or France, Thatcher wielded change with an axe and people suffered unduly. This is why I personally cannot forgive Thatcher.
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, i had Friends and relatives who were miners during the strike need i say more.
So, that makes it okay to rejoice in her death? What do you actually know about the miners strike?
She was pure evil!
I couldn’t agree more and reading the plaudits on here, which is essentially a Doncaster forum, makes my skin crawl. This woman orchestrated a ‘managed’ decline of the industrial north. She never gave a toss about people living in this town. She did more damage to UK industries than the Luftwaffe ever did. The motor industry, mining, steel, fishing, textile, were destroyed in the wake of her policies. She championed Britain on the world stage yet chose to import coal and steel from Eastern Europe. This evil cow channelled money away from working classes to line the pockets of her flag waving little Englanders. People said she had balls of steel… what a load of crap. She was untouchable and used the London Met police force as her own private army. The sad thing is she could see no wrong in her ways but because of her our once proud communities now suffer from social deprivation, crime, and poverty.
For the chap on here who suggested the miner’s strike should have been conducted with a mandate? It wouldn’t have made a blind bit of difference. Scargill suggested the Tories (hidden agenda) and ultimate aim was to shut 90% of the mines by the year 2000. Thatcher accused him of being a sensationalist and mocked this very assertion.
I won’t be celebrating her death. Celebrating requires energy and I’ve spent enough of that despising the evil tyrant whilst she was alive.
Why , do you think we should all be some sort of left wing class warriors because we come from this town. You said it earlier in your post 'she managed a decline of the industrial North', did she really and do you seriously think that decline was brought about by her or her policies ? We were already way down the path of decline due to internal and exterior circumstances as I've posted earlier before. Management and Unions failed to grasp/didn't give a flying fook about the situation, I know I worked as an intermediary in wage negotiations between both parties at that time..........it was a frigging mess fella. There was no working together , no compromise, zero dialogue, zilch respect about how both parties wanted to move their businesses on to become more productive and therefore competitive. I used to be in wage negotiations where different unions were scrapping with each other for a bigger slice of a small cake etc. The unions I was dealing with at that time wanted 15-20% pay rises, more rest days, shorter working hours etc. and on most occasions the businesses could only stand a max of 4/5% to stay in profit and move the business on. It was a recipe for disaster, a free for all if you like . Neither side was willing to seriously debate the futures of their businesses and of course the part that the stakeholders (employees) could play in that. Poorly trained management and leaders of workforces that would never see the bigger picture and of course the futures of their business and employment. It needed sorting, it beggared belief. I'm fed-up of folk glossing over the weaknesses of all and I mean ALL sides at that time. To compete with the emerging power houses in the Far East as well as our traditional competitors we had to TALK but we were basically in most cases inept and a free for all ensued until it was checked.
This period was driven by greed at a time when clear minds, clever strategies and compromise were needed. Quite simply we were poor and blaming all of that on Maggie is a joke unlike the stupidity of those opening bottles of champers yesterday. Many of them were more than likely around those negotiating tables in the 80's!
Was there a winner? Unlike BST's contention that there were many winners who waltzed off with the cash..........there clearly wasn't.
Today business is more professionally run , union reps are correctly trained and are able to see the needs of the businesses they work in and unlike 30 years ago most of us have decent lives.
Love her, hate her it's irrelevant now we have moved on and it's hightime some on here now started doing the same.
THE IRON LADY IS DEAD OK.
You have me confused, I’m not sure what world you are living in. The country was absolutely not in decline prior to Thatcher. It required change, granted, but not the extent she bestowed in such a short space of time. Thatcherite policies did not work. She exhausted the countries assets and in 1991 was still playing catch up to France and Germany. Because of her John Major was put in a perilous position. He inherited a broken Britain with confidence amongst the working man at an all time low.
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To quote the epitaph of Sir Christopher Wren: "'Reader, if you seek his memorial - look around you."
The legacy of Thatcher is what we have now, 30 plus years of "there is no such thing as society" greed and individualistic thinking. It has produced a massively wealthy, peaceful society which is innovative and forward thinking. Of course it hasn't. In my youth I never saw a homeless person on the street, didn't know family's under threat of losing their homes, lived in a country that made things and was far more equal. That could not be tolerated by the greedy and unscrupulous, they wanted to move their wealth out and ensure the walls they built around themnselves could never be breached. There are now 32 Trillion dollars in the British Virgin Isles alone hidden away by the elite of this world. It is a marvellous society Thatcherism built, enjoy it if you can stomach it, it makes me ashamed to think that we spawned such a nasty, ignorant and heinous situation.
What nonsense Will , there were as many homeless and hungry folk on the streets of Doncaster in our youth and you bloody know it. Of course we also had a beautiful and shiny town too didn't we ?
Don't let the realities of 30-40 years ago slip from your mind and fool you just because you want to be called a socialist. The reality was that we lived in a dirty, rundown town where folk worked bloody long hours underground or in a steelmill with all the attached industrial diseases and danger that went with it and btw there wasn't alot to go around for the vast majority pre or post Thatcher. Sorry fella but that's my memory, now if you can point out what the average Doncastrian doesn't have now that they had then then I would have to seriously reconsider your post.
It may have been a dirty old town but at least it was pulling things out of the ground, adding value to them and selling them. This is real wealth.
Industry in the North had suffered through a lack of investment and modernisation for years. Thatchers solution was to close it all down, what easier way to destroy the unions than to close all their industry? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a colossal understatement.
Where there had been steel mills they built shopping malls and superstores, they liberalised finance which released a tidal wave of credit which helped create the housing bubble we have now and the mountain of debt that is bringing our economy down.
If only we had been a bit more like the Germans and invested in manufacturing, instead of casinos.
And one more thing to contemplate, was the country in a worse state at the end of the 70s brought down by inefficiency and the unions...
Or now after unregulated global finance, unleashed by Thatcher and Reagan, has done it's work?
I look at the state of the UK, The States, Japan and most all Europe and the prospects for the future are deeply depressing.
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Thatchers Britain, freedom of movement denied in a "democratic" country
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTzEYq8W0fs
P.S. there`s a few familiar faces on that Vid
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hoolahoop, apologies about not addressing your question early. I only had a brief time to view this forum. Ok, you disagree about the 'managed decline of northern England'? Capitalism has its roots in functionalism philosophy. For a capitalist society to operate effectively it requires an underclass. It needs to offset high earners with low paid workers. Thatcher’s idea (in basic terms) was to divert the wagers paid to 10 miners in order to fund one city boy. Her policies managed the decline. She was well aware of the impact such policies would have on the northern industrial towns and cities. I am not saying that the UK didn’t need to change direction in the late 70s but it should have evolved into the capital regime the same way West Germany did. You compare the standard of living favourably today to the 1970s but don’t forget Labour was in power for 13 years, under which we saw the introduction of the minimum wage and the development of huge projects in the Doncaster area. What would it have been like if the Tories remained in power after 1997? We'll have first hand experience of that in the next couple of years.
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Estimated cost to the UK Government for her funeral is £10M and William Hague says the Government can afford it!
Disgraceful! Disability benefits are being slashed in the name of cost cutting and they`re going to spend around £10M on burning this cow!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22086690
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To quote the epitaph of Sir Christopher Wren: "'Reader, if you seek his memorial - look around you."
The legacy of Thatcher is what we have now, 30 plus years of "there is no such thing as society" greed and individualistic thinking. It has produced a massively wealthy, peaceful society which is innovative and forward thinking. Of course it hasn't. In my youth I never saw a homeless person on the street, didn't know family's under threat of losing their homes, lived in a country that made things and was far more equal. That could not be tolerated by the greedy and unscrupulous, they wanted to move their wealth out and ensure the walls they built around themnselves could never be breached. There are now 32 Trillion dollars in the British Virgin Isles alone hidden away by the elite of this world. It is a marvellous society Thatcherism built, enjoy it if you can stomach it, it makes me ashamed to think that we spawned such a nasty, ignorant and heinous situation.
What nonsense Will , there were as many homeless and hungry folk on the streets of Doncaster in our youth and you bloody know it. Of course we also had a beautiful and shiny town too didn't we ?
Don't let the realities of 30-40 years ago slip from your mind and fool you just because you want to be called a socialist. The reality was that we lived in a dirty, rundown town where folk worked bloody long hours underground or in a steelmill with all the attached industrial diseases and danger that went with it and btw there wasn't alot to go around for the vast majority pre or post Thatcher. Sorry fella but that's my memory, now if you can point out what the average Doncastrian doesn't have now that they had then then I would have to seriously reconsider your post.
ICI, International Harvesters/McCormicks, Plant Works, Coal Mines, Shipyard (Thorne), Pilkington Glass.
Many thousands of jobs that were never replaced, the ones that were replaced were on the minimum wage, massive amounts of money was taken out of the local economy, and even today the area suffers from the brutal policies of Thatcher!
Filo I worked at IH at this time in Industrial Relations and that company struggled for years before pulling out and closed plants as they were unable to compete in that market. Thatcher did NOT do their Sales and Marketing and did NOT contrary to your assertion have anything to do with it's collapse and subsequent sale. Indeed successive owners could not keep this business going.
She did NOT cause the demise of Pilkingtons Glass either, please supply your evidence for both these assertions.
As for the pits, they were already in decline and demand for coal internationally had shrunk as north sea oil and gasas well as nuclear power was intruduced on a large scale. The demand for coal generally had shrunk substantially compared to what it was in the early and middle 20th century. Conveniently you ignore these facts to peddle your socialist 'the witch hated the north' mentality.
However I agree with you re. the Plant Works but this was caused by long term policies of not only her government but that of previous Labour administrations and both partiesshould be ashamed of their short-sightedness in this regard.
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The demand for coal never shrunk, UK coal was replaced by cheap foreign imported coal, once the majority of the pits were closed that imported coal all of a sudden was n`t cheap any more. It`s criminal that this country sits on vast reserves of coal most of it inaccessible now because of thatchers short sighted policies and desire to break the unions!
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I see Clarkson's been invited to the funeral.
Imagine the scene. You've just lost the matriarch of your family. You are bereft by grief. You wonder how life could get any worse. Then you look round and see that troll-faced, arse-less c*** gurning at you.
I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Mark Thatcher.
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Fact is we shouldn't be using coal or gas any more, technology is there not to. But then we wouldn't want to lose all the taxes by using alternative methods would we?
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To quote the epitaph of Sir Christopher Wren: "'Reader, if you seek his memorial - look around you."
The legacy of Thatcher is what we have now, 30 plus years of "there is no such thing as society" greed and individualistic thinking. It has produced a massively wealthy, peaceful society which is innovative and forward thinking. Of course it hasn't. In my youth I never saw a homeless person on the street, didn't know family's under threat of losing their homes, lived in a country that made things and was far more equal. That could not be tolerated by the greedy and unscrupulous, they wanted to move their wealth out and ensure the walls they built around themnselves could never be breached. There are now 32 Trillion dollars in the British Virgin Isles alone hidden away by the elite of this world. It is a marvellous society Thatcherism built, enjoy it if you can stomach it, it makes me ashamed to think that we spawned such a nasty, ignorant and heinous situation.
What nonsense Will , there were as many homeless and hungry folk on the streets of Doncaster in our youth and you bloody know it. Of course we also had a beautiful and shiny town too didn't we ?
Don't let the realities of 30-40 years ago slip from your mind and fool you just because you want to be called a socialist. The reality was that we lived in a dirty, rundown town where folk worked bloody long hours underground or in a steelmill with all the attached industrial diseases and danger that went with it and btw there wasn't alot to go around for the vast majority pre or post Thatcher. Sorry fella but that's my memory, now if you can point out what the average Doncastrian doesn't have now that they had then then I would have to seriously reconsider your post.
ICI, International Harvesters/McCormicks, Plant Works, Coal Mines, Shipyard (Thorne), Pilkington Glass.
Many thousands of jobs that were never replaced, the ones that were replaced were on the minimum wage, massive amounts of money was taken out of the local economy, and even today the area suffers from the brutal policies of Thatcher!
Filo I worked at IH at this time in Industrial Relations and that company struggled for years before pulling out and closed plants as they were unable to compete in that market. Thatcher did NOT do their Sales and Marketing and did NOT contrary to your assertion have anything to do with it's collapse and subsequent sale. Indeed successive owners could not keep this business going.
She did NOT cause the demise of Pilkingtons Glass either, please supply your evidence for both these assertions.
As for the pits, they were already in decline and demand for coal internationally had shrunk as north sea oil and gasas well as nuclear power was intruduced on a large scale. The demand for coal generally had shrunk substantially compared to what it was in the early and middle 20th century. Conveniently you ignore these facts to peddle your socialist 'the witch hated the north' mentality.
However I agree with you re. the Plant Works but this was caused by long term policies of not only her government but that of previous Labour administrations and both partiesshould be ashamed of their short-sightedness in this regard.
The demand for coal was in decline in the 1970s and the NUM was aware of this, hence they oversaw the closure of almost 80 pits from 1970-1980. Of the 50k miners who were laid off, some were voluntary redundancies, some transferred to other pits, and the others were helped by the unions to find alternative jobs. You see that is what the unions did…they helped the common man. After Thatcher crushed the unions, during her tenure, 120 pits were closed, 200k miners lost their jobs, and these were left without an ounce of compassion or help from the despicable Thatcher and her cronies.
You say you were in Industrial Relations at International Harvester UK in the late 70s to early 80s? Then you will be aware of the huge contract from the Far East and the fact they (IH UK) rued the decision to merge Carr Hill with Wheatley Hall Road? The reason why IH (Case, McCormick) ultimately closed down was solely due to escalating production costs. As Filo suggested, Thatcher sought to import cheaper coal and steel from abroad but then went on to sell it at very high cost to power stations and other industries. She also privatised gas, electric, and industries saw their fuel bill rise enormously.
I despise Thatcher, not because she managed the closure of industries, some of this was inevitable in an ever changing world, but she left communities to rot in the wake of her decisions. Whist other countries managed the decline of industries, and supported the ones laid off, the Tory government did absolute nothing. When Thatcher defeated the miners she stood on the steps of Downing Street and gloated. She gloated at the fact she destroyed peoples’ lives, jobs, and communities.
Your assertions, which let’s face it, tantamount to the glory and praise of Thatcher, is totally misguided in a place like Doncaster. You are entitled to your opinion of course, but to heap this on people who fell victim to her policies is a tad smug. Thatcher was undeniably to blame for mass unemployment, the decimation of communities, and the ‘managed’ decline of industrial towns and cities. Because of her, here in the modern day, we have a trade deficit of £165 billion, simply because we have little in the manufacturing sector to sell. Italy, France, South Korea, all export more than we do. The Netherlands, a country with the quarter of our population have a significantly higher export than we do. As Thatcher destroyed our coal, textile, motor, steel industries, the above countries protected theirs.
As a footnote, you do realise we, as a country, are consuming 64 million tonnes of coal a year, which incidentally accounts for 40% of our electricity. In 1979 the UK produced 130 million tonnes, which is almost double the consumption of today. The difference being of course is that 45 million tonnes today is being imported. The irony in all of this is that this government realise that home coal is a sustainable energy for the UK and are currently spending millions on clean coal projects.