Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: les@donr on May 22, 2013, 12:10:37 am
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I would like to suggest the idea of having a War Memorial to Rovers players who lost their lives in WW1 and WW2, with their rank and regiments crests.
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Can you name them?
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Rob, no I can't, but I will be very surprised if there are some from WW2 and a lot more from WW1. In both wars footballers did not exemption from active service. Hence, Aldershot had one of the best wartime side made up of serving soldiers who were also FL footballers.
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Well, there is absolutely zero chance of the club funding this, I'm afraid. Once again, all funding will be diverted towards the playing side.
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How can you say that for sure Rob? If there is enough of a supporter groundswell of opinion, working with IRWT etc, then why wouldn't the club at least part fund something - it would only need to be a few hundred pounds perhaps?
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i think its a good idea and would support it .
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Some people are very good at spending other people's money.
Legends Wall, War Memorial, Statues etc. For a club on a very limited budget, trying to compete in the second tier, where would you rather see money spent - on competing or on aesthetics?
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why not hold a collection to at least contribute
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It would be nice if they were remembered somewhere, even if only on a webpage. Does anybody want to and know how to research this?
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It would be nice if they were remembered somewhere, even if only on a webpage. Does anybody want to and know how to research this?
This sounds like the pace to start. Compile a definitive list then create a memorial. But do you just stick to WW1 and WW2?
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Other supporters clubs have done similar things and may be able to help you with research. Leyton Orient have a memorial at the Somme for their players that lost their lives and have regular trips there to commorate this.
They would have the information on how to research this. It was actually supported and contributed to by our own legend Peter Kitchen.
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Some people are very good at spending other people's money.
Legends Wall, War Memorial, Statues etc. For a club on a very limited budget, trying to compete in the second tier, where would you rather see money spent - on competing or on aesthetics?
Over the last 12 months it has become clear that the club is increasingly engaging with the community. I would assume that they have a (relatively small?) budget for such activities, from which this idea could be supported?
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There already is that small memorial garden at the ground near car park 1. Not entirely sure what's in it but maybe this could become a part of that if something was done?
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There is plenty of information out there on various websites regarding soldiers who died in WWI & WWII - shouldn't take me too long to find the Rovers players among them (if indeed there are any).
This ought to be part of the overall displaying the history of the club, shouldn't it? Names on a memorial is all well and good but a display that had photos and a little biography of the players would be better.
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Ernest Edgar Ellis , at Rovers 1908-09 , sadly died on the first day of the Battle of the Somme in 1916 along with 6 other Hearts players ( enlisted in the Royal Scots ) . their sacrifice is still remembered by Hearts supporters to this day .
Another would be B Tebbutt ( ex Northampton , at Rovers 1914-15 ) who joined the so called Footballers Battalion in 1915
Think this is a worthwhile project but could take a lot of research through WW1 Army records etc
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I think its a good idea as part of our history/museum project, and needn't be anything costly at all.
Wilf Shaw who apparently played 190 times for us 1931-42 (the last game I can see he played was Oct 24 1942), and Glyn Jones (can't see he played for us in any competitive matches) both reported to have dies in WW2.
http://www.doncasterrovers.co.uk/history/League%20Tables/League%20table%201938-1939.htm
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I accept the criticism that there is a cost for both the Legends Wall and a Rovers players memorial. But when up there will be no further cost for the War Memorial and a low cost to maintain and upgrade the Legends Wall. The ideas suggested are to encourage an identity that the current fans have with the club's past. I also think the above are two separate projects and not need to run at the same time. Given that next year is the 100th anniversary of the start of WW1, it would be a fitting project, and could involve local school children to research the lives of the fallen from Doncaster, including those who played for the club.
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I agree with the heritage angle on this. It's an additional way for people and their families to connect and remain connected with the club. If that ties more people in then it may pay for itself.
Sure, we've got to walk before we can run, but as said on the other thread, it does need people to co-ordinate these things. We know the club has limited resources so may be encouraging more volunteers to get involved is what we need.
You may have seen the VSC encouraging folk to join in the past and to help the club with these sort of community projects with limited success.
May be it's a case of prioritising and then the club directly appealing for help with these things.
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It would be nice if local companies could step forward help with the cost of the War Memorial. As I said previously that next year is the centennial of the start of WW1, it would be fitting to have the War Memorial in place before the start of the 2014/15 season.
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A few good ideas in here, we should never forget the past.
Rather than expecting the club to control it why not put some thoughts together and get them on the forum and then perhaps those with some ideas could find a bit of time to put something to the club and then maybe even see it forward themselves? Whether the club contribute or not if you want something doing that should be relatively feesible why not look into it yourself as fans?
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Its a huge chunk of work to go through all ex players to see if they survived the wars. I'd be happy to help though if someone has access to war record archives. I think a list of names would be essential as a starter for this rather than a generalised memorial. Once that list is sorted, maybe then getting a fund for it and seeing what kind of memorial the club feels its best to have and where it would go.
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I think its a good idea as part of our history/museum project, and needn't be anything costly at all.
Wilf Shaw who apparently played 190 times for us 1931-42 (the last game I can see he played was Oct 24 1942), and Glyn Jones (can't see he played for us in any competitive matches) both reported to have dies in WW2.
http://www.doncasterrovers.co.uk/history/League%20Tables/League%20table%201938-1939.htm
To quote the excellent Donny The Official History of Doncaster Rovers by Tony Bluff and Barry Watson
' But there was sadness as well for the club and its supporters, when in October came the news that 21 year old Sgt Glyn Jones had been killed over Germany. He had last played for the Rovers in 1943-44. In March Wilf Shaw was killed in action on the Western Front.'
I guess a lot of the players may have gone down the pit instead of joining the forces.
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Beat me to it.
Just saying club Historian Tony Bluff could be a good starting point. I can't find any contact details for him but I bet Steve Uttley has. In fact this may also be of interest to Steve.
steveuttley@doncasterroversfc.co.uk
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PS. I think there are two empty 'Walls of Fame' spaces at the North West and North East corners of the stadium. May not be ideal but just a thought.
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Some excellent ideas here, I wonder if it would be possible to access the club's archives to find out the which players would be included on a Rovers War Memorial. The club must have details about each and every player who played for the club, involving club historians and also Doncaster/Sheffield local studies libraries might yeald some important info, and help us to put together a short bio of each player, when they played for Rovers, the regiment they served in, and in which battle and year they died. Regimental records could help too.
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It would be necessary to have dates of birth , full names etc . Don't forget we could be looking at people born as early as 1880 , which would make them in their 30's at the start of WW1
WW1 Military records are available on Ancestry.com ( subscription ) and the National Archives ( free to view ) .
I plan to try a couple of names through the above records and see if anything turns up
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HR, cheers for what you are plannig to do. I will try to get some info out of Sheffield Library of which I am still a member.
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I think the starting point wold be a definitive list of anyone who played (or would we want to include those who played for the reserves or were just registered with the club but never played for the first team as well?) for Rovers, and work from there.
Does anybody know what archives the club has and how we would go about allowing someone access to them for study purposes?
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There are two different issues here.
One is the lack of information on the history of the club that the club actually holds. I understood that a lot of the archive just "disappeared" in about 2002. There is also nobody that works directly for the club that has much knowledge of the football side of the club that they actually work for. I'm aware of individuals (supporters) that have done a lot of work players throughout the history of the club and they may have the information that is sought, but the chances of being able to identify everyone that fell in a war may be very slim especially as leading up to WWI Rovers were a non-league club. And anyway, should they have a plaque and the likes of John Nicholson who died whilst still club captain in a traffic accident shouldn't.
The other issue is that the stadium already has a memorial garden. I'm sure if someone was to do a plaque for former Rovers "en mass" then I'm sure they'd put it on the wall. If supporters contributed to individual plaques for different players, I'm sure they would do this too. They are generally quite receptive (especially under GB) for anyone wanting to do something to do it.
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I think the starting point wold be a definitive list of anyone who played (or would we want to include those who played for the reserves or were just registered with the club but never played for the first team as well?) for Rovers, and work from there.
Does anybody know what archives the club has and how we would go about allowing someone access to them for study purposes?
Plus you've got all the players from other clubs who guested for the Rovers during the war.
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Tried a few names this morning , found nothing . Full list of players 1910-16 would be brilliant but doubt if the lists are available . Rovers played 38 games 1914-15 Midland League and a further 28 in 1915-16 ( Mid Combination and Wharncliffe ) . Assume it was after this that players were conscripted .
Ancestry.com has a detailed database of soldiers who died in the Great War .
Good old Wiki has some good info , such as : On 21 October 2010, the Footballers' Battalions Memorial was unveiled at Longueval, France, near Delville Wood, to commemorate those from the Footballers' Battalions who had fought and died in the Great War
There are number of stories of heroism by footballers , well worth a read
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One is the lack of information on the history of the club that the club actually holds. I understood that a lot of the archive just "disappeared" in about 2002.
In that case we'd probably have to ask about the FA archives, everybody registered with Rovers should be on record there somewhere..?
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When the whistle blows , the story of the Footballers Battalion in the Great War by Andrew Riddoch and John Kemp
Tells the story of this famous 'Pals' battalion for the first time. Battalion fought in the Battles of the Somme, Arras and Cambrai. Extensively researched and contains many previously unpublished photographs. Players in the battalion have connections to over 80 current Football League clubs. Clubs range from Premiership clubs, such as Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool, to lower league clubs like Northampton Town, Plymouth Argyle and Grimsby Town. Contains a roll of 3,500 men known to have served with the Footballers' Battalion and A-Z biographical sketches of significant players
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I too think Tony BLuff would be a good starting point. If anyone knows his email details please PM me, and I'll happily drop Tony a line. He might be able to give us some starting points from which we find further details.
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We discussed this and other ideas in our meeting last week. For those who did complete the survey you will have seen the questions on drfc being responsible for cataloging our heritage and making this available to the community.
The club have taken this on board and will respond here when we have something a little more definite to offer. The bid for funding has been submitted and the project and its details will be announced sometime during the summer.
Thanks for the input.
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just a quick final point.........Bryan Tebbutt who left Rovers mid way through a game in 1914-15 to join the Footballers Battalion , subsequently ended up in the Royal Defence Corps ( basically the WW1 version of the Home Guard ) which consisted of men who had been injured or were considered not fit enough for front line duties
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I've checked Wikipedia for Rovers players who might have played for Rovers and then fought in WW1. I found out about the Football Battalion which fought in the major battles 1915 onwards.
Does anyone have the following book and able to find out if it gives any details of Rovers players who were fallen soldiers during WW1 and WW2? Bluff, Tony (2011). Donny:Doncaster Rovers F.C. The Complete History (1879−2010). Yore Publications. ISBN 978 0 9569848 3 8.
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There's nothing in Tony's book that I could see apart from the mention of 2 players joining the Footballers Battalion .
I've also looked at another Rovers record , ' The story of Doncaster Rovers 1879-1949 ' by J C Morris and the only real mention of WW1 is as follows : Immediately after the war was over local entusiasts began to take steps for the resuscitation of the Club but it was not easy . Hundreds of grand sportsmen had perished in the 1914-18 struggle and the Rovers were as hard hit as most .
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Sounds like a worthy, but impossible, task.
Why not put a general plaque in the memorial garden dedicated to the Rovers players who have given their lives defending this country etc and lay a poppy wreath every Armistice Day and also have a book of remembrance in the planned museum/trophy room listing any names that are discovered?
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Muttley, a good idea. I read on Spartacus Education website that something like 3,000 of the 5,000 professional footballers in 1914, ended up fighting in the Football Battalion. There must have been a few Rovers players amongst them. I've yet started looking at WW2 players/soldiers.
On Wikipedia there is a list of Rovers players, but for 1913-1020, none are listed. Apparently footballers in this period had one year rolling contracts, most were cancelled in 1915.
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Here's one for you Les who served in the War and is not on that list:
William 'Mickey' Bennett, played for Rovers in the 1880's. Joined Army Service Corps (ASC) as a volunteer in 1914/1915, aged 53, but was invalided out after 144 days. Unfortunately he died in September 1919, after the official ratification of the Treaty of Versailles in June 1919, generally taken as the official end of the war, so is probably not eligible by that criteria.
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I like the bit about one of them being a darling of the Blunts at Bramwell Lane suppose it sounds a bit better than Bumhole Lane or does it :laugh:
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Wilts, thanks for your clip. He might be able to be included as his death was related to injuries sustained during the Great War. I heard of several men who died after the war but their death was war related. I don't know the criteria of who's in and who's out. I hope it could include those who died after the war, as they still served the country and died as a result of their service.
Note to Moderators: could we have a poppy icon that we can add to topics such as this one?
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Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but why don't you ask the DFP is they are interested in putting out a piece requesting info from the Doncaster public on former Players who died whilst in action. There are a lot of folk (many older) who do not have access to the internet etc. The DFP may also have access to more data from their own records.......... just a thought.
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I now have a copy of the Footballers Battalion book , over 3000 names in it but unfortunately it doesn't list the clubs that they might have played for apart from a few exceptions
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A few more names who didn't quite make it - and one who will
Alonzo Drake - died aged 32 in February 1919 (before the official end of the war), played 36 games for Rovers in 1902-3 but didn't serve in the military - he was rejected (twice) apparently when he tried to enlist
Jack Lambert, centre-forward, played 44 games for Rovers in 1925-26 before being transfered to Arsenal for £2000 1926. Died in a car crash aged 38, December 1940.
Sam Mayberry - goalkeeper, played for Rovers in 1940 and 1941. He had just moved to Scunthorpe United where he was working at the steelworks when dropped down dead aged 25 also in 1940.
Attached is the clipping for Wilf Shaw, one of the two players known to have died on war service.
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Highland, that's frustrating, but there must be some Rovers players in there. I have a Sheffield Library members card, I could check with the Local Studies Dept. to see if there is any info. They are usually very helpful, but there might not be many staff around due to the Govts savage cuts.
Metalmickey, good idea, as I'm no longer based in the area, it might be a project for someone more locally based. If people do come forward, it would be nice for the VSC and the club to make contact with the relatives of soldiers who died in either WW1 or WW2, and perhaps feature them in a match day program.
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Wilts, cheers for your research you are coming up with some gems. I think that as more names become known, our case for a War Memorial becomes stronger.
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Has anybody come across this wiki page yet it may be of help
Hang on somats gone wrong I'll try to find it again
I can't get the link on wiki to work so search on wiki for this List of Doncaster Rovers F.C. players (1879–1918)
that works don't know why I can't get it to link though
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DR, I've been on Wiki, it lists the Rovers players but no mention of what happened to any of them, and there is a gap between 1913 to 1920.
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I've just emailed both the Local Studies library in Central library Sheffield, and the Local Archives also in Sheffield. Hopefully I'll get some useful feedback. Is there anyone out there who is a member of and can contact Doncaster library, as they might have some names and details that we are seeking? Thanks.
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If any of you are on Facebook it would be worth joining the Doncaster Genealogy group https://www.facebook.com/groups/529676883725421/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/529676883725421/) and posting a question on there.
There's a guy called Rob Burns who is a Rovers fan (not sure if he's on here) and is very clued up on where to find info.
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There is one other that has cropped up , Major William Booth ( Major was his christian name ) who had played a few Midland League games for Rovers and after receiving a battlefield commission died on the first day of the Somme offensive in July 1916 whilst serving with the West Yorkshire Regt . Booth was just 29 .
Booth and Alonzo Drake formed a formidable bowling attack for Yorkshire particularly in 1914 and Booth went on a MCC tour to South Africa .
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Not sure if this has already been mentioned but in case any of you have missed it, plans were submitted last march by Victoria Cross to build a WW1 museum in Doncaster. Surely they will have some useful information if they planned something like this?
http://www.thestar.co.uk/what-s-on/out-about/going-out/world-war-one-museum-and-trench-plan-for-doncaster-1-4525386
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The VC Trust have got a Visitor's Centre on Nether Hall Road
Victoria Cross Trust
97 Netherhall Road
Doncaster
DN1 2QA
South Yorkshire
Email: info@victoriacrosstrust.org
Tel: 01302 342652
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DR, I've been on Wiki, it lists the Rovers players but no mention of what happened to any of them, and there is a gap between 1913 to 1920.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List of Doncaster Rovers F.C. players (1879–1918) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List of Doncaster Rovers F.C. players (1879–1918))
I've been gradually building up that list but don't recall any WW1 deaths coming up. If you click on the ones with links, some of them have death dates. The club played into 1916, towards the end increasingly using soldiers who were stationed locally.
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I'm doing the Big Dig In for the VC Trust at the end of June so can have a word then if that helps.
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Francis "Frank" Pepper died in 1914 aged 38 - could be worth checking though is listed as dying in Rotherham. Not sure if deaths for war dead would be registered in their hometown or not?
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Thanks to one and all, who are digging around for our forgotten Rovers players and gallant soldiers in WW1 and WW2. I got a reply from Sheffield Archives, there is someone on the case as we speak, and will get back to me with anything that is found.
Has anyone been in touch with either the Doncaster Library or the local British Legion if they have anything that might help us?
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Just got the reply below from the Sheffield Local Studies library.
Dear Leslie,
many thanks for your enquiry.
I'm not sure we can help at this present time, but you might like to follow up the links provided as they might be able to suggest a way forward. (Links can be found at the end of this message)
We have local newspapers on microfiche, but without an exact date it might be difficult to find what you are looking for, We also have copies of the sports paper "The Green'un" which might be useful. Again these are on microfilm. To view you would need to book a film reader/printer, please ring 0114 2734753 if you want to use this service.
If the players were local, I would check the records of the "King's Own Light Infantry" first, as well as the "York's and Lancs.". Both regiments recruited locally.
Do you have any names that might aid your search? "Ancestry" has British Army records. These include medal records, service records and pension records. In Sheffield we have a service that allows free access to the site, your local library may have a similar service. You could also try the "Commonwealth War Graves" site, but again you need a name to search the database.
Sorry I can't help further,
Regards
Lynn Humphries
Local Studies Assistant
Sheffield Local Studies Library
Central Library
Surrey Street
Sheffield S1 1XZ
Tel +44 (0)114 273 4753
Fax +44 (0)114 273 5009
E-mail localstudies.library@sheffield.gov.uk
Website www.sheffield.gov.uk/libraries/archives-and-local-studies
Opening Hours: -
Monday and Tuesday Closed,
Wednesday 09.30 - 20.00
Thursday, Friday & Saturday 09.30 - 17.30
Picture Sheffield website http://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php
*********************************************************************
http://www.nationalfootballmuseum.com/contact-us/main-contacts/
http://www.doncaster.gov.uk/sections/leisureandculture/museumsandgalleries/doncastermuseumandartgallery/King_s_Own_Yorkshire_Light_Infantry_Museum.aspx
http://www.cwgc.org/
http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/info/200070/museums_and_galleries/153/york_and_lancaster_regimental_museum
I can check websites, but given I'm living in Canada I am unable to go to the Library to look at microfsche.
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Bristol Red Rover that was the page I was trying to link if you click on Jack Hall the bloke went on to manage Feyenord a couple of times PSV and others don't know how succesfully though.
Sorry posting on my phone and its ruddy useless
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Sorry I've been behind the curve on this- I've been offline quite a bit lately and am doing my usual "getting away from football" once the season ends.
As far as I am aware the only Rovers' player who appeared for the club in the Football League and was killed in action is Wilf Shaw. Major Booth, better known as a Yorkshire and England cricketer, did play briefly for Rovers in the Midland League.
As we don't have full records of all the players who appeared in the Midland League, it would be difficult to compile a definitive list. The only way to do so would be to work back through those Doncastrians who were killed in the Wars and then check their obituaries in the local press to see if they had played for Rovers in the past.
I am pretty certain that Frank Pepper (who died in 1914) and Joe Bowman (d.1941) were not war casualties.
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One is the lack of information on the history of the club that the club actually holds. I understood that a lot of the archive just "disappeared" in about 2002.
In that case we'd probably have to ask about the FA archives, everybody registered with Rovers should be on record there somewhere..?
The "FA Archives" are pretty useless. Most of their stuff was destroyed at various times, although the FA's own historian, David Barber, has done a decent job of building up historical material. However, he has had to rely on other sources than the FA itself.
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I got the following email from a researcher at Sheffield Archives.
Dear Mr Smart
Thank you for your E-Mail regarding Doncaster Rovers players who died in the World Wars.
I am not aware of any records held that will list these.
The Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) website at www.cwgc.org lists those killed in both wars by surname.
It can be very difficult if you just have a name which might be common to match it to a name on the CWGC without knowing the soldiers number and regiment.
In addition the CWGC website might not necessarily indicate that the person killed was a footballer.
There is a book held by us that lists those killed in World War One from Sheffield but again there will be no indication that they happen to have been a footballer and as with a lot of lists of this kind it is not complete.
There is a website in progress that is attempting to provide information on every Sheffield soldier so if the Doncaster Rovers player was from Sheffield he might be on there at www.sheffieldsoldierww1.co.uk
So unless you know of any of the Rovers players who were killed were from Sheffield (and you would need a name) then we cannot help any further.
You probably would know more than I do about this but you would need if one exists an A-Z of Doncaster Rovers players similar of which have been produced for other clubs.
I can only suggest contacting if you have not already done so Doncaster Archives at doncaster.archives@doncaster.gov.uk or the Doncaster Local Studies Library at library.doncaster.gov.uk/web/arena/local-studies
Yours Sincerely
Graeme Siddall
Archive Assistant.