Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: IC1967 on February 07, 2014, 02:32:05 pm
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I can't for the life of me understand why Dave Cameron wants the UK to stay intact. If the Scots vote for independence then the Tories would easily be the biggest party in Westminster. Labour would be finished in England.
So come on Dave, wise up and encourage the Scots to vote for independence. You know it makes sense.
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The hint is in the full name of his party.
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Conserve? Their lovely Raspberry jam?
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If Dave's real motive was Scottish Independence he would be up there every week.
I can't think there would be a better motivator for getting the Scots to vote for independence than Dave's smug voice telling them they should vote for the Union.
Perhaps that's why he has kept his head down south.
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Cameron is absolutely right not to engage in a debate with Salmond. Cameron could win the arguments hands down yet still do damage to the NO campaign. The Scots need to be told some home truths about the dangers of voting for independence, but not by an Englishman, especially one with a posh voice. They need to be told them by a fellow Scot.
Though whether Alistair Darling is the man to tell them is another matter. The NO campaign could have chosen someone with a bit more charisma to lead them- there must be literally thousands of candidates! ;)
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Cameron is absolutely right not to engage in a debate with Salmond. Cameron could win the arguments hands down yet still do damage to the NO campaign.
Cameron might win the argument on facts, but Salmond would wipe the floor with him on a performance and charisma basis. THAT'S why Cameron is refusing to engage with him, he knows it and daren't be made to look second best.
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Cameron is absolutely right not to engage in a debate with Salmond. Cameron could win the arguments hands down yet still do damage to the NO campaign.
Cameron might win the argument on facts, but Salmond would wipe the floor with him on a performance and charisma basis. THAT'S why Cameron is refusing to engage with him, he knows it and daren't be made to look second best.
Every time Cameron opens his posh, English mouth on the subject he adds votes to the Yes campaign. A lot of the people voting yes are those that aren't really interested in the issues or future of the country, but more of their perceived hatred of the English. Twenty years ago maybe, but with both countries now having large ethnic and continental european immigration populations the concept of seperate countries within the UK is becoming more and more diluted and I'd far rather be an equal(ish) partner in the UK than a very small player in the EU.
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It boils my piss that the Welsh and Scottish can have their own parliaments but in England we can't. This means that Labour always have a chance of forming a government on the back of 'foreign' MPs from Wales and Scotland. Just look at the damage the last 2 Scottish leaders of the Labour party wreaked on England.
England is a naturally Conservative country. We don't want Scottish people ruining our country. Let's form an English parliament and get rid of Wales and Scotland. These countries are a drain on England and we'd be far better off without them.
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I hate to say this but for once I agree with IC1967
Can't understand how the outposts have their own parliament but are still allowed a vote in Westminster on issues regarding England
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.... and....
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/doncaster--is-part-of-scotland--after-900-year-old-administrative-error-comes-to-light.html#AaoXf5C
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Good old Alex Salmond seems to be from the General Melchett school of philosophy, i.e. "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
The Chancellor, Shadow Chancellor, the Lib Dem treasury spokesman (a Scot, btw) and the senior civil servant at the treasury tell him an independent Scotland won't be able to keep the pound and he accuses them of bluffing.
A senior Eurocrat tells him that an independent Scotland won't just be waved in to EU membership and he says the fellow is talking nonsense.
The trouble is that at least 40% of Scots voters probably believe him and think everything is a plot devised by "English Tories."
As I said before, the Scots need to be told some home truths by someone who speaks their language (or at least speaks with a Scottish accent). Alistair Darling's low-key, charisma-free approach doesn't seem to be working. If Miliband wants to be taken seriously as a potential future PM he needs to tell his Scottish MPs to start getting the message out. Otherwise he'll be looking for 40-odd MPs come 2016.
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As a tory voter I doubt I'd lose much sleep over Scotland going it alone. But as someone who grew up in Scotland and has a whole family from there I can't see the value in it. Not one of family intends to vote yes though. They're quite happy as they are right now which is better off than they would be outside of Britain.
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TRB
How do you work out that Darling's approach isn't working? The polls have shown the No campaign ahead by 15-30% for over a year (apart from a handful of outliers, mainly commissioned by the SNP or the partisan Wings over Scotland group).
The Referendum result will be a No victory by 20%. Salmond's case is fuller of holes than the under crackies I wore on a particularly special night back in 1989, which I have refused to part with since.
What I really don't understand about the Scots is why they didn't jump for independence back in 79 when the issue was first put to the vote. Had they done so then, and got a deal to keep even a part of the oil money, they would have been one of the richest nations on earth. Instead, the SNP calls a referendum when:
a) the oil is starting to run out
b) the Celtic Tiger model that they believed in was blown out of the water by the financial crisis and
c) their long-cherished aim of joining the Euro is as popular as popery in Govan.
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BST
Last year the polls showed that the No campaign had roughly a 20% lead. This year that lead is narrowing to around 16-17%. However, the big concern for the No camp is still the numbers of undecideds. The danger is that most of these would really like to vote Yes but remain unconvinced that an independent Scotland won't very quickly become an economic basket case.
Salmond's message has been pitched at these voters and it basically is that an independent Scotland can have its cake and eat it. Yes, it will have to take on a share of UK debt, but it will be able to keep the pound and the Bank of England as a lender of last resort. So, if the Scottish economy tanks, either as a result of global conditions or policy failures, the B of E (and the rest of the UK) will be obliged to bail out Scotland. Also, Scotland would be able to have EU membership and therefore would not lose access to European markets.
The interventions from the Chancellor and the other economic portfilio holders at Westminster and the comments from Barroso at the weekend should be fatally damaging to Salmond's case. However, he is brushing them off as (a) negotiating positions but also (b) bullying by the English Tories who are getting the Eurocrats to do their dirty work for them. The next batch of polls will therefore be interesting, but I'd wager that they show the Yes vote hardening slightly.
That's why I think it is important that Scottish politicians of stature (who will be by definition mostly Labour or Lib Dem) tell the Scottish electorate how it is. You are right to point out the adverse conditions they are likely to face vis-a-vis oil and the global economy. But also they are likely to face the prospect of signing up to the Euro as a condition of joining the EU and of being isolated from the rest of the UK.
The No campaign to date may have worked with its "softly softly" approach, but to me if it is going to avoid a very close poll indeed come September it is going to have to raise its game. And relying on English politicians and Eurocrats to get the message over is likely to prove counter-productive.
Incidentally, the Scots were not offered independence in 1979. They were offered devolution and did not vote for it with sufficient strength for it to be carried. Had they done so, it would probably have paved the way for an independence vote some time in the late-80s or 90s in which case the "Celtic Tiger" model would have been highly relevant.
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What I really don't understand about the Scots is why they didn't jump for independence back in 79 when the issue was first put to the vote.
Because 1979 wasn't a vote for independence, it was a referendum on devolution just as the one in 1997 was.
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As an Englishman living in Scotland , I must admit to having voted SNP in the past as I thought they were the right party for the country at the time and my local MSP has helped my local community out with various problems . As the referendum approaches I have a feeling that it will be close but it would appear to be a generation issue , the older generation ( me included ) are concerned over financial issues like pensions , council tax , free prescriptions etc while the younger element are all for sticking it up to Westminster !!
To me , the very term independent dosen't mean keeping the Queen , UK passports , the pound etc and as someone has already pointed out , the oil revenue isn't going to last forever .
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Look it's very simple. It is a fact that the Scots hate the English (I don't blame them given the history between the two countries). Given this is the case why is anyone in England remotely concerned about the breakup of the UK?
They will only stay with the UK if they think they will be better off financially. That is not the right attitude. Given they hate the English so much they should be encouraged to go it alone and then England can get on with powering ahead without Scotland being a drain on the economy.
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Is it a fact the Scots hate the English?
Not in my experience.
For me Scotland should look around at comparable small North European states, Norway, Denmark, Iceland and Ireland and try and weigh up what the pitfalls and benefits of independence might be say ten years down the line.
I think this country has a problem in that it is over centralised, London sucks in all the investment. I don't think the pound is really a good currency for most of the country beyond London. I think the economy is run for the benefit of the city first and foremost. If the Scots do vote for independence then they need their own currency, so the Scottish economy can work for them. They may need to retain the pound for a while but they would have to ditch it as soon as they could.
If the Scots did make a success of it, there could be a great many benefits for us in the North of England. Personally I hope they have the courage to break away but when it comes down to it I don't think they will.
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This is fun just reading Mickipedia and not joining in. It all falls into place. His approach to every problem is so one-dimensional, it'd make a 4H pencil line look obese.
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Anyone who doesn't believe that the Scots hate the English with a passion is living in cloud cuckoo land. It is unbelievably naive to pretend they don't. Of course they are going to be nice to your face, especially if they are living in England. However you go North of the border and if you speak to an honest Scot they will tell you the truth.
The Scots hate the English because for centuries, the English treated them like second class citizens, often denying them the simplest necessities for survival. English power at the time gave away most Scottish land to wealthy English land owners.
Remember Braveheart? They were jumping up and down and cheering like a football crowd in the cinemas when the Scots were giving the English a good kicking. Game set and match.
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Anyone who doesn't believe that the Scots hate the English with a passion is living in cloud cuckoo land. It is unbelievably naive to pretend they don't. Of course they are going to be nice to your face, especially if they are living in England. However you go North of the border and if you speak to an honest Scot they will tell you the truth.
Remember Braveheart? They were jumping up and down and cheering like a football crowd in the cinemas when the Scots were giving the English a good kicking. Game set and match.
I work at the Highland Games every year, and it's never more than friendly banter, no matter how drunk they get. Considering the bulk of these blokes, and how many of them carry weapons, It's fortunate for me that you've no idea what you're talking about! In the 6 or 7 years I've worked there, the only bitter, hate-filled person I've ever had issue with was irish.
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Anyone who doesn't believe that the Scots hate the English with a passion is living in cloud cuckoo land. It is unbelievably naive to pretend they don't. Of course they are going to be nice to your face, especially if they are living in England. However you go North of the border and if you speak to an honest Scot they will tell you the truth.
The Scots hate the English because for centuries, the English treated them like second class citizens, often denying them the simplest necessities for survival. English power at the time gave away most Scottish land to wealthy English land owners.
Remember Braveheart? They were jumping up and down and cheering like a football crowd in the cinemas when the Scots were giving the English a good kicking. Game set and match.
Mick, It might come as a shock to you, but Mel Gibson is n't Scotish!
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Anyone who doesn't believe that the Scots hate the English with a passion is living in cloud cuckoo land. It is unbelievably naive to pretend they don't. Of course they are going to be nice to your face, especially if they are living in England. However you go North of the border and if you speak to an honest Scot they will tell you the truth.
The Scots hate the English because for centuries, the English treated them like second class citizens, often denying them the simplest necessities for survival. English power at the time gave away most Scottish land to wealthy English land owners.
Remember Braveheart? They were jumping up and down and cheering like a football crowd in the cinemas when the Scots were giving the English a good kicking. Game set and match.
Eh, which centuries were those then? Until 1707 Scotland was an independent country, England didnt rule it and therefore had no say in who owned the land. Exactly the opposite. After 1603 when England was ruled by a Scottish king, James VI, he granted land in England to his Scottish favourites, as did his Scottish son Charles I.
Following the Act of Union, which abolished England as an independent country, Scotand was divided betwen those who supported the United Kingdom - and those who didnt. And has pretty much stayed that way since. For most of that period it has quite often been Scots who have been the most enthusiastic supporters of the UK, especially the army, you obviously didnt know that in the First World War the Scots provided more recruits per head of population than the English.
It is only in recent years that land which is has been owned (run by) the same families for hundreds (if not thousands) of years has been bought up by foreign owners, which the Scots are not too happy about, again England has had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/who-owns-scotland-1320933.html
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Anyone who doesn't believe that the Scots hate the English with a passion is living in cloud cuckoo land. It is unbelievably naive to pretend they don't. Of course they are going to be nice to your face, especially if they are living in England. However you go North of the border and if you speak to an honest Scot they will tell you the truth.
The Scots hate the English because for centuries, the English treated them like second class citizens, often denying them the simplest necessities for survival. English power at the time gave away most Scottish land to wealthy English land owners.
Remember Braveheart? They were jumping up and down and cheering like a football crowd in the cinemas when the Scots were giving the English a good kicking. Game set and match.
Mick, It might come as a shock to you, but Mel Gibson is n't Scotish!
Come on now, are we really going to allow facts to get in the way of a good old fashioned Mick rant?
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Calling all honest Scotchmen. Can just one of you come on here and tell the doubting Englishmen just how much your fellow countrymen hate the English as there are a lot of deluded naive folk on this forum.
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I have Scottish grandparents and they sure as hell don't hate the English.
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Calling all honest Scotchmen. Can just one of you come on here and tell the doubting Englishmen just how much your fellow countrymen hate the English as there are a lot of deluded naive folk on this forum.
can you go one day without being the biggest WUM ever? You're filling my unread posts screen with garbage and it's getting bloody annoying tbh
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I'll have you know know all I'm doing is expressing my honestly held views. You obviously have trouble dealing with anyone's views that aren't left wing or politically correct.
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Here's a Scot who doesn't hate the English. He says those words precisely. Apparently they were jumping up and down celebrating in Scottish cinemas when he said this. Trust me. I know what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1tJJO_pVvQ
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Look. I've worked with Scotch people. I've asked them the question and the unequivocal answer is that they hate the English with a passion. Seems like a lot of English people on this forum can't handle not being liked by the Scotch. I'd have thought English people would have been used to this.
The Scotch are only one of many races that aren't too keen on England. Unfortunately the history of England isn't taught properly in schools and English people are blissfully unaware of the bad feeling that is out there.
Why on earth do you think we never win the Eurovision Song Contest?
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Scotch is a whisky
Scotish are the people of Scotland
But I'm sure it's just one of your many deliberate mistakes eh?
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Of course. I was beginning to think no one would notice. I couldn't help but titter to myself every time I wrote Scotch. By the way, I'm hoping that you made a delibarate mistake. It should be Scottish or Scots.
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Mick
I'm so pleased that your waggishness has made you titter. I often think of you as a bit of a titterer and it's always nice to find that you've judged someone correctly.
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I also know a lot of Scots. Most of them have no problem whatsoever with the English, apart from politicians. Just like us then.
Also remember that if Scotland were to gain independence there is a good chance that the Orkneys and Shetland Isles would then break.
They regard themselves as more Nordic than Scottish. They want to be part of the Union, not an independent Scotland. I'm sure that Norway would welcome them back.
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Anyone who thinks the Scots don't hate the English is deluded. Try growing up in Scotland even when 75% of your family is Scottish when you were born in England, it just doesn't bode well at all. The Scots are all fine when they want your tourism, but after that they don't want to know in a lot of cases.
The one that grates me that it is allowed is tuition fees. How can Scots, and Europeans get free tuition up there for being EU members, but somehow the English, Welsh and Northern Irish are not classed as that, it has confused me for years how they get away with that? I understand the principle, but not really the way it's permitted.
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The Scotch are only one of many races that aren't too keen on England. Unfortunately the history of England isn't taught properly in schools and English people are blissfully unaware of the bad feeling that is out there.
The Scots are not a race.
Of course there are those who hate the English but I don't think it is that widespread or deeply held. Anyone remember 'Absolutely' on Channel 4? They had a Scottish character who hated the English. They did a thing about football "Now, Scotlands draw for the World Cup. Brazil, Brazil, Germany, Argentina, Brazil and Italy. And now England's draw for the World Cup, Monaco, Faroe Islands, Andorra, Malta, Dogger Bank and me and my mum!"
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Personally, I've never met "The Scots".
Have any of you lot?
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Mick
I'm so pleased that your waggishness has made you titter. I often think of you as a bit of a titterer and it's always nice to find that you've judged someone correctly.
Would a titterer be also known as a tit?
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The one that grates me that it is allowed is tuition fees. How can Scots, and Europeans get free tuition up there for being EU members, but somehow the English, Welsh and Northern Irish are not classed as that, it has confused me for years how they get away with that? I understand the principle, but not really the way it's permitted.
It's not a case of nationality on tuition fees, it's on residency. You could be English, living in Scotland, and get free higher education. However, you cannot be living there just to access the free higher education. You need to demonstrate that Scotland is your normal place of residence and that your educational needs are secondary.
It's been highlighted by several legal experts as discriminatory and probably in breach of the Equalities Act. However, the EU can't do anything about it as they don't get involved in "discrimination" cases within member states. Why it continues to be tolerated domestically though, I don't know.
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Thank you BFYP for backing up the point I was making. There are a lot of deluded folk on this forum and in England generally. I make a point of never going on holiday to countries that hate England. I never go abroad and always holiday in England.
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Eh, which centuries were those then?
You need to watch the first 10 minutes of Braveheart.
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Personally, I've recently watched The Bridge over the River Kwai, The Dam Busters and Cockleshell Heroes. These British people are damnedly intelligent, brave, selfless and hard-working. Surely they can't be the same Brits who are feckless educationally under-achieving, work-shy dole scroungers?
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Correct. Back in the day people were much more hard working. The current generation could learn a lot from them.
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Anyone who thinks the Scots don't hate the English is deluded. Try growing up in Scotland even when 75% of your family is Scottish when you were born in England, it just doesn't bode well at all. The Scots are all fine when they want your tourism, but after that they don't want to know in a lot of cases.
The one that grates me that it is allowed is tuition fees. How can Scots, and Europeans get free tuition up there for being EU members, but somehow the English, Welsh and Northern Irish are not classed as that, it has confused me for years how they get away with that? I understand the principle, but not really the way it's permitted.
On a more local level BFYP
Try growing up in North Notts and moving back to Hatfield in January 1984 and the teacher on your first day "jokes" that perhaps your dad's a Scab and has come to Hatfield to work in the pit.
That didn't bode well.
The only time I have ever asked my Dad to pick me up in his full prison officers uniform as that was better than the alternative.
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Scotch is a whisky
Scotish are the people of Scotland
But I'm sure it's just one of your many deliberate mistakes eh?
Slight correction. Scot tribal home land is IRELAND, north of. They went across to conquer what we now know to be SCOT- LAND.
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Correct. Back in the day people were much more hard working. The current generation could learn a lot from them.
Whereas "The Scots" haven't changed since the days of daub and wattle?
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My grandparents must have gone back in time to have my dad then cos none of that part of the family or any Scots I've met through them have anything against "us"...
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Whereas "The Scots" haven't changed since the days of daub and wattle?
I believe they use materials such as bricks now. I've also heard they now have running water and electricity. I think you've gone slightly off tangent. My point is that the Scottish hate the English. I'm not arguing that the current generation have the same attitudes as the previous generations. However they are similar in one regard, their hatred of the English. These days they are not likely to raid and pillage over the Scottish border as they would do in the past for example.
Just admit you've got it wrong. BFYP has lived in Scotland. Why on earth can you not take what he says as true?
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My grandparents must have gone back in time to have my dad then cos none of that part of the family or any Scots I've met through them have anything against "us"...
There's a couple of points I feel I must mention. Judging whether the Scotch hate the English or not on such a small sample of people is not a good method for extrapolating what the whole population think. Also don't you think they may be being nice to your face as they don't want to be rude when behind your back they will be quite happy to slag you off to the high heavens. They think its funny that the English have no grasp of how they feel about them.
I suggest the next time you are in the company of a Scotchman get him drunk and then ask him the question. He will confirm what I'm saying.
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I swear you must get off on talking complete shite. :laugh:
It's quite cute, really.
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Mick
Do you ever consider it might be just swivel-eyed loonies like you that they don't like?
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Do you ever consider it might be just swivel-eyed loonies like you that they don't like?
I think you're the one with the eye problem looking at your avatar! The Scotch I've met and worked with actually like me because they know what my ancestry is. They don't regard me as English. They know I can relate to the unspeakable crimes committed by the English on the Scotch and my ancestors.
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I swear you must get off on talking complete shite.
If you want your views to be taken seriously on the forum you need to do better than that. If you disagree with what I say then you have to say why (if you can). I suspect you find it very difficult to counter any of my views because I am always right.
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The Scotch I've met and worked with actually like me because they know what my ancestry is. They don't regard me as English. They know I can relate to the unspeakable crimes committed by the English on the Scotch and my ancestors.
But in your previous posts you regard yourself as English (see the use of the words 'we' in quote below. Therefore they must hate you as it was your ancestors who committed those 'unspeakable crimes' (whatever they were, inventing golf maybe).
If you want your views to be taken seriously on the forum you need to do better than that. If you disagree with what I say then you have to say why (if you can). I suspect you find it very difficult to counter any of my views because I am always right.
The Scots hate the English because for centuries, the English treated them like second class citizens, often denying them the simplest necessities for survival. English power at the time gave away most Scottish land to wealthy English land owners.
In which centuries did 'the English treat them like second class citizens', what land was given away and which English land owners were given it?
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But in your previous posts you regard yourself as English (see the use of the words 'we' in quote below. Therefore they must hate you as it was your ancestors who committed those 'unspeakable crimes' (whatever they were, inventing golf maybe).
It doesn't take much working out, but you have been unable to do it so I'll help you out. I was born in England so am considered to be English. However because both of my parents aren't English the Scotch realise that I bear no responsibility for the crimes of my ancestors as they were not English.
Indeed my ancestors suffered terribly at the hands of the English. Because history is properly taught in Scotch schools they know all about the history of my ancestor's great country. This is why they like me and do not consider me to be 'English'.
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In which centuries did 'the English treat them like second class citizens', what land was given away and which English land owners were given it?
I refer you to my previous post. Have you watched the first 10 minutes of Braveheart yet? It's surprising how much you can learn about history by watching films.
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Come on Mick. Easy enough question. How exactly did your poor ancestors suffer? Facts and details lad.
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Perhaps in the knowledge that they'd have a certain descendant? :whistle:
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But in your previous posts you regard yourself as English (see the use of the words 'we' in quote below. Therefore they must hate you as it was your ancestors who committed those 'unspeakable crimes' (whatever they were, inventing golf maybe).
It doesn't take much working out, but you have been unable to do it so I'll help you out. I was born in England so am considered to be English. However because both of my parents aren't English the Scotch realise that I bear no responsibility for the crimes of my ancestors as they were not English.
Indeed my ancestors suffered terribly at the hands of the English. Because history is properly taught in Scotch schools they know all about the history of my ancestor's great country. This is why they like me and do not consider me to be 'English'.
If they like you can they take u back ?
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In which centuries did 'the English treat them like second class citizens', what land was given away and which English land owners were given it?
I refer you to my previous post. Have you watched the first 10 minutes of Braveheart yet? It's surprising how much you can learn about history by watching films.
I refer you to my question - which you have still not answered.
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Did Trevelyn ship some of your lot off to Botany Bay Mick?
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That last post of yours BST makes you sound like a right old codger. Referring to me as lad is ridiculous. I'm old enough to be a grand dad.
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Botany Bay was another example of English barbarism. I'm glad I'm not considered as English. It would be so embarrassing having to explain the history of England. I'd be at a total loss for words which is most unlike me.
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Wilts, all you have to do is watch the first 10 minutes of Braveheart. I'm beginning to think you've never heard of William Wallace and what drove him to give the English a good kicking (with the help of the Irish).
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In which centuries did 'the English treat them like second class citizens', what land was given away and which English land owners were given it?
I refer you to my previous post. Have you watched the first 10 minutes of Braveheart yet? It's surprising how much you can learn about history by watching films.
:zzz:
http://thehande.wordpress.com/2011/12/05/braveheart-the-10-historical-inaccuracies-you-need-to-know-before-watching-the-movie/ (http://thehande.wordpress.com/2011/12/05/braveheart-the-10-historical-inaccuracies-you-need-to-know-before-watching-the-movie/)
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That last post of yours BST makes you sound like a right old codger. Referring to me as lad is ridiculous. I'm old enough to be a grand dad.
Stating the obvious , you could have fathered a son or daughter at 18 ( or less ) and your off spring similar. so you could be between 32 and 36, whilst BST may be much older.
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Age is irrelevant. Attitude is telling. Mick comes across like a precocious 12 year old who knows, just KNOWS how everything works but who has no comprehension of the complexity of the real world, or the difficulties that extremely talented and able people have to face when struggling with complex problems.
For a precocious 12 year old, everything is simple if only people would see it like they do.
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I stand by my comment. You sound like a patronising old codger. You are obviously unaware of this so I have done you a favour in pointing it out. You do yourself no favours by using such language. This way of speaking may have been OK in the 1950's but is certainly not now.
I don't mind you calling me lad (you've called me a lot worse in the past). Again I don't mind, you can call me what you like. It's water off a ducks back.
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Wild Rover. My age is irrelevant. If I was 12 it would still make BST sound like a patronising old codger. As a betting man I would be certain BST is old. It's obvious. Whereas I have successfully shaken off the appearance of being old by keeping my use of language modern and contemporary.
I'm merely trying to help BST come into the 21st century and not to be old before his time.
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Go on Mick. Since you're a gambling man, I'll add add a tenner to our earlier bet if you get my age right to within 5 years.
PS. While we're on about betting, you never did reply to my challenge about opinion polls did you? Strange for a man who prides himself on always answering direct questions. The challenge still stands if you're man enough to take it.
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keeping my use of language modern and contemporary.
Aye, bloody marvellous what you can pick up on that word hippo, eh...
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Look Billy, make your mind up Am I a lad or am I a man? 'Old' is a wide ranging term. My definition of old is probably different to yours. A young person can think being old starts at 30. A 50 year old can think being old starts at 70. We all have a different view to what old is. So guessing your age to within 5 years is not really relevant.
You talk like an old man. My definition of being old is someone who acts like they are 70 and above. I would not be surprised if you were considerably younger than this.
However your use of language is what I'd expect from someone who is 70 and above. Therefore that is why I consider you to be 'old'. IMHO you are not yet 70 but you certainly act like it with the patronising, condescending way you talk down to people.
You could try my method of being straight to the point in a fair and somewhat pugnacious manner. This should knock years off you. Unless I told people my age, I guarantee they would think I was young. You on the other hand leave no doubt at all as to how you are perceived, and that is old.
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Right. That's two questions dodged in one post. Nice one Mick.
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I think you'll find I've more than answered your age question. I am not going to pretend I could guess your age to within 5 years because I can't. IMHO that was a silly question.
At this stage I feel I must revise my earlier statement that I will answer any question that is thrown at me. I believe I am unrivaled on this forum for answering anything that is thrown at me. I wish I could say the same of others. However there is the very odd occasion when I don't answer a question. If I don't, then you can all assume that I view the question as not worthy of response.
This could be for a number of reasons, but the main one would be that the questioner is going off at a tangent to the thread. For example what on earth has your age got to do with a debate on Scotch Independence? What on earth has a question on polls got to do with Scotch Independence?
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You raised the issue of age. And you're a gambling man with a proud tradition of always giving straight answers to straight questions.
Except when you don't.
Like the other gambling question I've now asked you about on 5 separate occasions and you haven't once addressed.
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Billy, I was just doing you a favour by raising the question of age. I know it was a bit off topic but I felt you were making yourself look a lot older than you probably are. All I was trying to do was point this out to you so people would not carry on laughing behind your back at your 'old man' remarks.
So I'd be grateful if you'd just thank me for this advice and let's get back to debating Scotch Independence.
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Six times
Here was the first time I asked you. Bottom of this post.
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=242903.msg397598#msg397598
Are you going to ignore it again?
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Six times
Here was the first time I asked you. Bottom of this post.
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=242903.msg397598#msg397598
Are you going to ignore it again?
He's sucked you in again BST, you know he won't give you a straight answer, I don't know why you bother with him, it must be tireing making him look stupid time after time, I'm still waiting for him to reveal the affluent area he lives in, I'm not holding my breath, the man is clearly a fruitcake!
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I'm working on the assumption that he didn't spot the original post Filo. Or the 5 reminders.
It's very much unlike Mick not to reply to a straight question though. Strange.
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Wilts, all you have to do is watch the first 10 minutes of Braveheart. I'm beginning to think you've never heard of William Wallace and what drove him to give the English a good kicking (with the help of the Irish).
So the Scots liked the Irish so much they decided to colonise it and deny native Irish rights in that area, nice payback chaps.
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Just for you Wilts as you seem to be in denial as to why the Scotch hate the English is a brief history from the 13th century.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/articles/the_wars_of_independence/
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Just for you Wilts as you seem to be in denial as to why the Scotch hate the English is a brief history from the 13th century.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/articles/the_wars_of_independence/
It was 800 years ago. I imagine most people are over it by now.
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By his logic we still all hate the Germans...
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By his logic we still all hate the Germans...
I never did get over Hastings, and don't get me started on the bloody Danes.
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By his logic we still all hate the Germans...
tbf they did bomb our chippy
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Hengist and Horsa.
They come over here. Bloody European scroungers looking for work. They take our houses, our jobs. Before you know it, they want to run the bloody place.
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You won't find me buying a German car.
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What car do you own Mick?
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Look, this thread is getting very silly. May I suggest we all try and get it back on track. Thank you in anticipation for your cooperation in this matter.
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Do you ever consider it might be just swivel-eyed loonies like you that they don't like?
I think you're the one with the eye problem looking at your avatar! The Scotch I've met and worked with actually like me because they know what my ancestry is. They don't regard me as English. They know I can relate to the unspeakable crimes committed by the English on the Scotch and my ancestors.
By your reasoning Mick, Edward 1st was a plantagenet king, so we should n't regard him as English, we know his ancestry, the Jocks should be hating the French really, but instead jumped into bed with them against the English, who in theory hadn't done anything to them
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By your reasoning Mick, Edward 1st was a plantagenet king, so we should n't regard him as English, we know his ancestry, the Jocks should be hating the French really, but instead jumped into bed with them against the English, who in theory hadn't done anything to them
You've lost me a bit there. Look, its very simple. Edward was king of England. You don't get much more English than that no matter what your parentage was. He was an evil man and wreaked untold horrors on the Scotch in the name of the English. Unfortunately for the English the Scotch know their history and still haven't forgiven his actions in the name of England.
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By your reasoning Mick, Edward 1st was a plantagenet king, so we should n't regard him as English, we know his ancestry, the Jocks should be hating the French really, but instead jumped into bed with them against the English, who in theory hadn't done anything to them
You've lost me a bit there. Look, its very simple. Edward was king of England. You don't get much more English than that no matter what your parentage was. He was an evil man and wreaked untold horrors on the Scotch in the name of the English. Unfortunately for the English the Scotch know their history and still haven't forgiven his actions in the name of England.
Henry II
Stephen
William II
William I
Were all kings of England, born in France, how English are they? All ancestors of Edward I, just like your Irish ancestry in your world gives you the right to renownce your Englishness, Edward I ancestry gives true Englishmen the right to renownce his Englishness
And another point while we're at it Mick, in this very thread you state you won't visit places that hate the English, but then go on to say that you don't consider yourself English, your a strange lad Mick. I take it you've never visited your ancestrial home in Ireland, they must hate the English due to the potatoe famine
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If you're going to try and be a wind up merchant at least get your story straight. :laugh:
It's all a bit tragic how much effort you're going to to troll a football forum...
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By your reasoning Mick, Edward 1st was a plantagenet king, so we should n't regard him as English, we know his ancestry, the Jocks should be hating the French really, but instead jumped into bed with them against the English, who in theory hadn't done anything to them
You've lost me a bit there. Look, its very simple. Edward was king of England. You don't get much more English than that no matter what your parentage was. He was an evil man and wreaked untold horrors on the Scotch in the name of the English. Unfortunately for the English the Scotch know their history and still haven't forgiven his actions in the name of England.
Scotch is an alchoholic drink. Scots is a person with lineage to the Scot tribe from Ireland.
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Scotch is an alchoholic drink. Scots is a person with lineage to the Scot tribe from Ireland.
Gotcha. You need to read my previous posts more carefully.
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By your reasoning Mick, Edward 1st was a plantagenet king, so we should n't regard him as English, we know his ancestry, the Jocks should be hating the French really, but instead jumped into bed with them against the English, who in theory hadn't done anything to them
You've lost me a bit there. Look, its very simple. Edward was king of England. You don't get much more English than that no matter what your parentage was. He was an evil man and wreaked untold horrors on the Scotch in the name of the English. Unfortunately for the English the Scotch know their history and still haven't forgiven his actions in the name of England.
If Edward I could not speak English - was he an English King or a King of England?
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Just for you Wilts as you seem to be in denial as to why the Scotch hate the English is a brief history from the 13th century.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/articles/the_wars_of_independence/
Yes good read Mick. Would you mind bringing it up to date by giving me a brief history of the Union of the Crowns in 1606, the War of Three Kingdoms in 1641 and the Act of Union in 1707 to show the continued antagonism and hatred between Scotch and Anglo-Saxons. Ta.
Here's a link to the Scotish Curriculum to help you on your way
www.educationscotland.gov.uk%2FImages%2FTheTreatyofUnionTheCourse(H)_tcm4-569917.doc
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Chuck in the Darien escapade and Robbie Burns's excoriating poem on the Act of Settlement an all if you're talking about Scottish chips on shoulders and grudges.
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Exactly the opposite Billy, if Mick does his research properly he will see that for a century the Scots were aiming for greater union with England - a position many have maintained since - and in total opposition to his claims, rather than being hated enimies they were actually the best of friends.
If he also does his research properly he will also find that much of the internal conflict in his 'native land' was started by people of Scots descent - not English. And it has continued between the Scots and Irish in both of those countries today - not the English.
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Exactly the opposite Billy, if Mick does his research properly he will see that for a century the Scots were aiming for greater union with England - a position many have maintained since - and in total opposition to his claims, rather than being hated enimies they were actually the best of friends.
If he also does his research properly he will also find that much of the internal conflict in his 'native land' was started by people of Scots descent - not English. And it has continued between the Scots and Irish in both of those countries today - not the English.
Also Wilts, if Mick actually reads his link he'll see that the Scottish barons actually asked Edward to interfere in their affairs by choosing between Robert Bruce and John Baliol to be the King of Scotland, it's when the Barons turned on Edward by forming an alliance with France that things got nasty
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Look all this history malarkey is diverting attention from my main point. The Scotch hate the English. This is incontrovertible fact. I don't care what the reasons are. Those of you that can't handle this fact need to harden the f**k up and just accept that this is the situation.
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You're like a kid banging his head against the wall over and over because his parents won't let him have his own way.
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Look all this history malarkey is diverting attention from my main point. The Scotch hate the English. This is incontrovertible fact. I don't care what the reasons are. Those of you that can't handle this fact need to harden the f**k up and just accept that this is the situation.
Mick, you brought History and Ancestry into the thread, it was the reasons you cited for the Scots hating the English. Now you are saying you don't care what the reasons are, why cite them in the first place if you don't care about them?
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Wilts
I meant that Burns's poem is a bit of propaganda used by some Scots to castigate their lily-liveried Anglophile forebears who (as Burns and some of the more rabid Nats would have it) sold their birthright to the devious English.
In fact, Scotland was bankrupted by their farcically incompetent attempt to get a slice of the slave trade and colonial action by setting up a settlement Central America. Pretty much everyone with any money in Scotland invested in the scheme and they lost every penny they had put up. The result was catastrophic for the Scottish economy and led directly to their being bailed out by England and to the Acts of Union.
Burns called the Scots' leaders who had taken the English money "a parcel of rogues" who had been "bought and sold for English gold". That poem still works on slack-arsed sentimental Scottish heart strings today and the SNP never miss a trick at playing that card. The nasty windbag Salmond regularly invokes it.
http://www.snp.org/blog/post/2011/oct/alex-salmond-scotland-will-join-family-nations
http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2004/feb/tory-parcel-o-rogues-arbroath-spent-decades-selling-out-scotlands-fishing
http://www.glasgowsnp.org/News/SNP_News/Salmond_addresses_Bridgeton_Burns_Club:_%22It's_gude_to_support_Caledonia's_Cause%22/
Funny how the Nats love to big up how proud Scotland was betrayed, but never talk about the context of why this came about.
At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, it's from the same political stable as the way in which the Nazis pushed the belief that in 1918, Germany lost because of weak leaders and self-serving Jews, not because her brave sons were overwhelmed in battle.
It is self-serving lies and bigotry dressed up as patriotism. Fortunately, it doesn't grab enough Scots to make a Yes vote in September even remotely likely.
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Mick. I asked before whether you had met "The Scots". That was another question that you declined to answer. I'm running out of fingers now Mick.
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Filo
Leave the lad alone. It's what he does. He makes an argument, sees it systematically taken apart, then says that the evidence doesn't matter but he's right anyway.
Remember that time when he told us that because our national debt had reached the same level as Weimar Germany, we were going to suffer hyper inflation. (or was it deflation, I forget now cos he changed his mind overnight). When it was pointed out to him that the numbers he'd copied from Money Week were £6trillion out, he waffled for a bit, Googled a few other rightingnutter.com sites that agreed with him, then finally accepted that the numbers were wrong. But still insisted that the outcome would be the same anyway.
Can't argue with a man who starts of with a conclusion and filters out any evidence that disputes the conclusion. It's how religious zealots operate.
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I'm not sure he actually reads the whole links that he posts for us, he'd find that often they contradict what he says
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Look it's very simple. I am always right. I don't know why you don't all realise it by now. I do you the courtesy of providing the facts to back up my point of view. Surely by now you should all be prepared to just accept what I say is fact. I should not need to provide evidence. I have more than proved myself.
By the way Billy you have again referred to me as lad. This makes you sound very old. I believe I have mentioned this before.
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(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSjk7dAZvW50jKcN2R41UxGWIUKIPRGA0PPd7q8fhfl4o5MBAdtJw)
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Mick. Gotcha!
I know you're not young. Trust me. I know what I'm talking about. You just make me feel as weary as Methuselah every time I interact with you v
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Calling all honest Scotchmen. Can just one of you come on here and tell the doubting Englishmen just how much your fellow countrymen hate the English as there are a lot of deluded naive folk on this forum.
Sorry I'm late to this particular petty argument...
As a Scot who has lived in England since I was five but has the majority of family living in Scotland I think I feel qualified to answer. Both sides of the argument are sort of right. I certainly don't hate the English, as I suspect is the same for the people who you work with, etc and who either have English friends and/or live in England. I will support anyone that plays England at football, but that's no different to me hoping Rovrum or Scunny get beat every week.
However back home I have a lot of Aunts, Uncles and Cousins on my fathers side who detest the English and they stopped talking to my Dad for years due to his decision to move us to England. There is a section of Scottish society who hate the English and if you don't believe me I'd try walking round Glasgow on a Saturday night in an England top and see how long it takes somebody to start.
It is correct in that history being taught in English schools doesn't encompass just how brutal some of the history of this island was and why their is a legacy of anti-english feeling.
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Calling all honest Scotchmen. Can just one of you come on here and tell the doubting Englishmen just how much your fellow countrymen hate the English as there are a lot of deluded naive folk on this forum.
Sorry I'm late to this particular petty argument...
As a Scot who has lived in England since I was five but has the majority of family living in Scotland I think I feel qualified to answer. Both sides of the argument are sort of right. I certainly don't hate the English, as I suspect is the same for the people who you work with, etc and who either have English friends and/or live in England. I will support anyone that plays England at football, but that's no different to me hoping Rovrum or Scunny get beat every week.
However back home I have a lot of Aunts, Uncles and Cousins on my fathers side who detest the English and they stopped talking to my Dad for years due to his decision to move us to England. There is a section of Scottish society who hate the English and if you don't believe me I'd try walking round Glasgow on a Saturday night in an England top and see how long it takes somebody to start.
It is correct in that history being taught in English schools doesn't encompass just how brutal some of the history of this island was and why their is a legacy of anti-english feeling.
Your post demonstrates the bigotry that still exists in Scotland today, especially in places like Glasgow
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The Scottish mantra of 'friendliest place in the world' does always make me laugh, some just detest anything English. But then it's something that's deap in Scottish society, they have a hate of things much more than we do down here. The Celtic-Rangers aspect tells you that.
I once got booed in an athletics meet up in Scotland, that was nice at 12 years old. Booing the 12 year old guy born in England was a bit bizzare. Mind, I'd have taken just beein booed at school, it was much, much worse.
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Never mind the Scots vs the English. Look what the Germans have done to the Scots...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhZez-1IgAAgmi7.jpg)
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Never mind the Scots vs the English. Look what the Germans have done to the Scots...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhZez-1IgAAgmi7.jpg)
That is reason enough for the Sots to hate the Germans over any other nationality by a landslide
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Filo
The Sots?
They're not ALL ale carts and whisky swiggers tha knows.
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Filo
The Sots?
They're not ALL ale carts and whisky swiggers tha knows.
If some one can get away with Scotch,I can get away with Sots :)
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There you have it. Rios and BFYP have provided conclusive evidence that what I was saying is bang on. Please be advised that any apologies will be immediately accepted and there will be no hard feelings.
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There you have it. Rios and BFYP have provided conclusive evidence that what I was saying is bang on. Please be advised that any apologies will be immediately accepted and there will be no hard feelings.
But you're saying ALL Scots hate us...
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Mick
I'll ask you again with no more hope of a cogent reply than ever: have you ever met "The Scots"?
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RedJ you take pedantry to a new level. I suggest you take a simple challenge. The next time you go to Scotchland wear an England football shirt for the duration of your stay. I guarantee we will never see or hear from you ever again.
However if a Scotchman came to England and wore a Scotchland football shirt for the duration of his stay no one would bat an eyelid. He would be able to return safely to his homeland.
Do you think I'm right or wrong? A one word answer will do.
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My mate went to Glasgow in an England cricket shirt, a Scotsman in a pub growled at him that cricket was a puffs game, my mate replied that was rich coming from a bloke wearing a skirt, he came back to England unharmed and friendly with a few Scotsmen
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Mick! Mick! Mick!
Anybody in? You've stopped answering my straight questions again.
If RedJ went to Scotland in an England shirt and was beaten up, would it be "The Scots" who did it?
PS
I'm running out of toes as well as fingers now Mick. Is it a New Year resolution of yours to stop answering straight questions?
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RedJ you take pedantry to a new level. I suggest you take a simple challenge. The next time you go to Scotchland wear an England football shirt for the duration of your stay. I guarantee we will never see or hear from you ever again.
However if a Scotchman came to England and wore a Scotchland football shirt for the duration of his stay no one would bat an eyelid. He would be able to return safely to his homeland.
Do you think I'm right or wrong? A one word answer will do.
Wrong.
Partly as I've worn an England shirt out in Aberdeen before. Next?
Besides, I don't know how you of all people can pick up on pedantry.
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So we seem to have gone from 'all Scots hate anyone English' to 'if you are wearing an England football shirt in the wrong area on a Friday night there might be trouble'. If you are wearing a Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, football shirt in the wrong area on a Friday night you might find trouble - so what does that prove?
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Mick, I think you'll find the only English the Scots hate are those who refer to them as Scotch.
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If RedJ went to Scotland in an England shirt and was beaten up, would it be "The Scots" who did it?
Thats an easy question to answer. It would be the Scotch.
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My mate went to Glasgow in an England cricket shirt, a Scotsman in a pub growled at him that cricket was a puffs game, my mate replied that was rich coming from a bloke wearing a skirt, he came back to England unharmed and friendly with a few Scotsmen
He is the exception that proves the rule.
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I take it you've no response to what I said then.
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Wrong.
Partly as I've worn an England shirt out in Aberdeen before. Next?
You must be mad. It must have been very dark and you must have had it covered up with a coat or something. What you did was very reckless. Take my advice and don't do it again. You've had a very narrow escape. You won't be so lucky next time.
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:laugh: Think what you like.
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I'll ask you again with no more hope of a cogent reply than ever: have you ever met "The Scots"?
The jury is out on that one. Though it appears you have already made your mind up. I offer up the following for your consideration:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/scotsirish.htm
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So who've you copied that off then? :)
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Mick, you've been warned before about copy and pasting articles without providing the link, so here it is
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/scotsirish.htm
Try and produce your own arguments
Mick, you look rather sad googling things all the time
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Mick, you look rather sad googling things all the time
As if regularly trolling the forum of a football team he obviously couldn't care less about didn't look sad enough. :laugh:
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Neil Lennon, the very Irish football manager has been attached and had death threats to his family by Scots.
Terry Butcher the very English football manager has not.
Therefore proving my point the Scots hate the Irish and dont care about the English.
Game, set...match.
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Mick
Well done on your photographic memory. Unfortunately, it doesn't help to replace a lack of thinking.
To make it simple for you, I wasn't asking for a socio-historical treatise on The Scots.
I was asking whether you had met "The Scots" as as a plural. As an all-embracing collective. Or whether you had met "some Scots".
Actually, we all know that in reality you never leave your bedroom, so I suspect you've never met "any Scots".
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I'll ask you again with no more hope of a cogent reply than ever: have you ever met "The Scots"?
There is no evidence in the archaeological record for any population movement from Ireland to Scotland, other than travel by occasional individuals.
In modern use, "Scottish people" or "Scots" is used to refer to anyone whose linguistic, cultural, family ancestral or genetic origins are from within Scotland. The Latin word Scotti originally applied to a particular, 5th century, Goidelic tribe that inhabited Ireland.
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My mate went to Glasgow in an England cricket shirt, a Scotsman in a pub growled at him that cricket was a puffs game, my mate replied that was rich coming from a bloke wearing a skirt, he came back to England unharmed and friendly with a few Scotsmen
That kind of ties in with my experience of dealing with Scots people when in Scotland. Rather like Aussies, they think of the English as stuck-up toffs, but if you're prepared to have a bit of friendly banter with them, they are usually OK with you.
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Neil Lennon, the very Irish football manager has been attached and had death threats to his family by Scots.
Terry Butcher the very English football manager has not.
Therefore proving my point the Scots hate the Irish and dont care about the English.
Game, set...match.
I think you are mistaking some Protestant football fans as being wholly representative of the Scotch. They are not. It is true that some Scotch protestants hate the Irish but only because they are Catholic. Most Scotch love the Irish as the two nations have many cultural ties.
If the Scotch don't care about the English can you explain away the real life experiences of BFYP and Rios? Don't bother replying as you won't be able to.
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I've just stumbled across this quote from the great German poet Freidrich Schiller. I wonder if he ever sparred with Mick?
"Folly, thou conquerest, and I must yield!
Against stupidity the very gods
Themselves contend in vain."
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Neil Lennon, the very Irish football manager has been attached and had death threats to his family by Scots.
Terry Butcher the very English football manager has not.
Therefore proving my point the Scots hate the Irish and dont care about the English.
Game, set...match.
I think you are mistaking some Protestant football fans as being wholly representative of the Scotch. They are not. It is true that some Scotch protestants hate the Irish but only because they are Catholic. Most Scotch love the Irish as the two nations have many cultural ties.
If the Scotch don't care about the English can you explain away the real life experiences of BFYP and Rios? Don't bother replying as you won't be able to.
That's easy Mick, I'll use one of your in depth explanations
They are the exeptions that prove the rule ;)
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2 of my 4 friends are Scots, 3 of the 4 girls I slept with are Scots. If there is so much hatred Why do so many Scotsmen and Scotswomen marry English folk.
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Seems my post has been taken to mean whatever your agenda wants it too. Maybe I should have been a bit clearer. Those of us who live here or have english friends are far less likely to "hate" the English than those of my family who have lived in the same town all their lives and don't interact with them. It's the same reason people fear all muslims are terrorists, all working class people are dole scrounging chavs and all gay men fancy all straight men. All proposterous and fear and hatred born out of ignorance rather than finding out what someone (or a particular group of people) are like before judging them.
I'd also point out seeing as the footy shirt (which was a throw away comment) has become so important, that I would never wear any of my Scotland shirts to an English football league ground. I'd like to think it wouldn't be a problem, but it only takes one dick with alcohol in him (as they would have on a Friday night in Glasgow) to prove me wrong.
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Couple of things I need to point out,Billy the Germans did not lose the First World War, they were not beaten but their leaders signed a very unfavorable Armistice agreement,which left a very bitter taste in their mouths which certain persons later exploited.
And Mick, Edward the First did not have it in for the Scots, He was consistent in treatng everybody like something he had just trodden in!
He persecuted the Jews, Persecuted the Welsh ,the Scots and his own
English and French subjects, he was a 'Great and terrible King' the book by that title is a superb read,you just have to admire him for being consistent.!
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Sproty
They signed an Armistice because they had been routed in the field and their troops were devastated by the flu pandemic. They tried holding out for better terms but the Allies threatened to resume hostilities and the Germans knew that they would be pushed back over the border and have the western part of the country occupied. Their main ally, Austro-Hungary was effectively out of the war after having its army smashed by Italy at Vittorio-Veneto and leading Germans (Prince Rupprecht for example) thought that the German army would not be able to hold out over the winter. In fact, that is as near to a military defeat as makes no odds. But of course, the fact that they hadn't been pushed back into German, and their own towns and villages occupied made a useful foundation for you-know-who's myth making later. Just like Robbie Burns and that devious t**t Salmond can play the card that Scotland would always have been alright if only they hadn't let England bail them out in 1701 and take them over in 1707.
It's the exactly the same trick that folk use when they say, "Ah well, if Brown hadn't bailed out the banks and borrowed for stimulus in 08-10, we'd now be OK". Its counterfactual myth making that tells some people what they most want to hear, without having the responsibility of ever having had to put your own policy into action at the time.
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Has Doncaster as not been handed back over to England does that mean we can vote as well??? :chair:
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Has and as need swapping MM