Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Albert Trousers on March 09, 2014, 11:24:19 am
-
Unveiled a coal not dole, never forgive never forget banner yesterday, nice to know they haven't forgot or forgave what happened with Notts in the 80's, do we even chant scabs at Forest anymore? If so rarely despite them singing the "sign on" song at us, still we wouldn't want to upset anyone would we?
-
We're a family club don't forget. We don't want banners or flares or anything like that. ;)
-
"Family club" is a term I despise.
-
Sadly true, hopefully this west stand atmosphere will continue to grow & we can get a bit of fear factor to the place, nowt like Leeds or Millwall but there's no intimidation for away players, I notice Hudds had a mob of spotty chavs yesterday, as do most clubs these days, why? Because we are a soft touch, wouldnt have happened 10-15 year ago, not condoning violence for a moment but we are too nice.
-
Here it is
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiOPTbNIcAAviKU.jpg:large)
-
All I seemed to hear yesterday were chants about the colour of a females undergarments not a clue why ?
-
Unveiled a coal not dole, never forgive never forget banner yesterday, nice to know they haven't forgot or forgave what happened with Notts in the 80's, do we even chant scabs at Forest anymore? If so rarely despite them singing the "sign on" song at us, still we wouldn't want to upset anyone would we?
And how many of the current 20,000 odd Nottingham Forest fan base who will be at their ground, were actually strike breakers 29 years ago?
Few and far between I guess?
-
In Barnsley its a subject that wont go away for a few generations at least, just look at the send off thatcher got in goldthorpe
-
It's a little bit sad in my opinion. For some perspective it happened before I was even born.
-
It's heritage. Simple. It's what shaped and made this area what it is today, for good and bad. Mostly bad.
-
It's a little bit sad in my opinion. For some perspective it happened before I was even born.
If you lived through those times, witnessed and suffered the oppression, you probably wouldn't think it was so sad
-
It's a little bit sad in my opinion. For some perspective it happened before I was even born.
Plenty of books out there. Well worth some reading!
-
How can you say something is sad when you weren't around then?
-
It's heritage. Simple. It's what shaped and made this area what it is today, for good and bad. Mostly bad.
Exactly, It should never be forgotten, Barnsley was no more of a mining town than Donny, they hate Forest with a passion including those not around during the strike. Isn't the Pompey,Southampton rivalry (although also local) originally about one of the towns scanning on the dockyards?
-
I'm with IDM on this one.
Football rivalries should be about football not bloody political history. Besides which, whilst I loathed Thatcher with as much venom as any man alive, Scargill deserves more vilification than she does for what happened. He used the miners as pawns in his power struggle with Thatcher for nothing other than to feed his own inflated ego. He didn't give a flying f**k about the truth or the interests of the miners he was supposed to represent.
-
It's a little bit sad in my opinion. For some perspective it happened before I was even born.
If you lived through those times, witnessed and suffered the oppression, you probably wouldn't think it was so sad
I agree, they were terrible (and avoidable) events but I for one am sick of the "scab" chants whenever we play them.
-
If you weren't about during the strike then you should not be posting on here about it,you do not know what it was like,Nottinghamshire miners going back to work on the first day of the strike ,fighting with fellow miners who wanted to prove a point that closing pits was just a ploy from the conservative government to beak down the num.so don't say on here that its only football related posts that should be posted . The miners strike will never be forgotten and what tha SCABS DID FROM NOTTINGHAM WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN EITHER.
-
It's heritage. Simple. It's what shaped and made this area what it is today, for good and bad. Mostly bad.
Exactly, It should never be forgotten, Barnsley was no more of a mining town than Donny, they hate Forest with a passion including those not around during the strike. Isn't the Pompey,Southampton rivalry (although also local) originally about one of the towns scanning on the dockyards?
It is same as Millwall & West Ham, Millwall scabbed at the next match when they played each other both lots of fans clashed and it's gone on from their,
Our lot will always hate Nottinghamshire and all the scabbing bas**rds that live there.
Your dads a scab and so are you ,
we'll never forgive you cnuts for 82.
Your dads a scab and so are you,
we'll never forgive you cnuts for 82.
Maggies worse then Hitler, Maggies worse then Hitler,
And your all SCABS, and your all SCABS.
-
If that was in answer to my view Shaun I certainly was around then, I'll be 59 this year so witnessed it as an adult too.
My father was a miner, I'm from a mining family so my loyalties are and were firmly with the miners. Doesn't make it right to see only the wrong done by one side or to make us look dicks by chanting 'scabs' at rival football fans.
-
If you weren't about during the strike then you should not be posting on here about it,you do not know what it was like,Nottinghamshire miners going back to work on the first day of the strike ,fighting with fellow miners who wanted to prove a point that closing pits was just a ploy from the conservative government to beak down the num.so don't say on here that its only football related posts that should be posted . The miners strike will never be forgotten and what tha SCABS DID FROM NOTTINGHAM WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN EITHER.
Yes but not all folks in Nottingham, and Forest fans, would have fallen into that category.
-
Idm, is it not like chanting we all hate Leeds scum. I know plenty of Leeds fans who are not scum.
-
Why should we look like diks for chanting scab,scab to forest fans, we are just reminding them that what the Nottinghamshire miners did in the strike was wrong
-
It's a little bit sad in my opinion. For some perspective it happened before I was even born.
http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2008/11/04/great-miners-strike-1984-5-twelve-months-shook-britain-story-strike
-
I'm with IDM on this one.
Football rivalries should be about football not bloody political history. Besides which, whilst I loathed Thatcher with as much venom as any man alive, Scargill deserves more vilification than she does for what happened. He used the miners as pawns in his power struggle with Thatcher for nothing other than to feed his own inflated ego. He didn't give a flying f*** about the truth or the interests of the miners he was supposed to represent.
So based on your theory, over the last 10 years our passionate football rivalry should be with Yeovil then?
-
Why should we look like diks for chanting scab,scab to forest fans, we are just reminding them that what the Nottinghamshire miners did in the strike was wrong
Like that was Forest fans' fault?
-
I'm with IDM on this one.
Football rivalries should be about football not bloody political history. Besides which, whilst I loathed Thatcher with as much venom as any man alive, Scargill deserves more vilification than she does for what happened. He used the miners as pawns in his power struggle with Thatcher for nothing other than to feed his own inflated ego. He didn't give a flying f*** about the truth or the interests of the miners he was supposed to represent.
So based on your theory, over the last 10 years our passionate football rivalry should be with Yeovil then?
That argument makes no sense. Of course Yeovil are a football rival, over the last decade or so, much more than the sheffield clubs, but not like Rotherham or Scunthorpe though.
-
I know its only done to wind up the opposing fans and try to gain an "edge", but Its all rather pathetic if you ask me.
Football rivalry should be about the football, not events from history, which bear no resemblance to what is happening on the pitch.
I am happy to engage in friendly banter with our rivals, but only about football matters. Anything else does not belong at the match. I was sat in the stand at Blackpool a few years ago and a Rovers fan behind me insisted on chanting obscenities about Margaret Thatcher throughout the first half. I moved to a different part of the stand.
Let's just concentrate on backing our own team and cutting out these
tribal obscenities which have no place at a football match.
-
Its very easy to dissmiss it pod if you wern't there.It still hurts very much to all involved.If only we sang about football matters at games but we,and every other club don't.
-
IDM,i am not saying its ALL the forrest fans fault but there will be a lot of them that were there in the strike and know what we are on about when we call them scabs.
-
Why should we look like diks for chanting scab,scab to forest fans, we are just reminding them that what the Nottinghamshire miners did in the strike was wrong
Like that was Forest fans' fault?
It's not Leeds fans fault that Saville & Sutcliffe were from there but they have to listen to chants about them being " 2 of their own" most weeks, except when they play us, we would want to spoil our happy clappy reputation. That's football (or what used to be ) anything to get the to the opposition players or fans
-
Why should we look like diks for chanting scab,scab to forest fans, we are just reminding them that what the Nottinghamshire miners did in the strike was wrong
THIS is the tragedy of the Miner's Strike, that thrity years later people are still believing Scargill's BS. Nottinghamshire voted not to strike, so they couldn't. Scargill could have sorted that in minutes by calling a national ballot. How about asking why he didn't try and unite the workforce and lay the blame at his door where it belongs?
-
But there was a ballot for industrial action up to and including strike action the previous year
-
But there was a ballot for industrial action up to and including strike action the previous year
Which were superceded by the subsequent ballots...or else why bother having new votes if you don't need them?
-
If you weren't about during the strike then you should not be posting on here about it,you do not know what it was like,Nottinghamshire miners going back to work on the first day of the strike ,fighting with fellow miners who wanted to prove a point that closing pits was just a ploy from the conservative government to beak down the num.so don't say on here that its only football related posts that should be posted . The miners strike will never be forgotten and what tha SCABS DID FROM NOTTINGHAM WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN EITHER.
Well said. This should be the last word.
-
Nottinghamshire miners going back to work on the first day of the strike
Of course they did, they couldn't do anything else once their ballot result came in. They were never on strike - nobody, not themselves, not the NUM nor Scargill himself called then out on strike. You can only be a strikebreaker if you work in defiance a vote to strike. They didn't do that. If Scargill had had the b*llocks to call a national vote they'd have agreed with the result and gone on strike along with everybody else if the result was for a that. For Nottinghamshire to defy the result of the ballot that did take place would have been an illegal strike.
This is Scargill's legacy - mining communities still at each other's throats because of HIS actions.
-
Glyn what subsequent votes, in the mists of time I can't remember these only the national vote
-
Glyn, The year before the strike the num had a ballot to give the union the power to call an all out strike on pit closure issues,the ballot was unanimous,becuse the nots miners did not aggree with this a year later they all called for another ballot which was never going to happen.love him or hate him arthur scargill quoted that pit closures we going to happen untill there were none left,there are only a few left now.
-
Glyn what subsequent votes, in the mists of time I can't remember these only the national vote
There wasn't a national ballot, that's why Nottinghamshire refused to go on strike, as there was no mandate. Scargill refused to hold one. THAT'S what split the communities and crippled the strike from day one.
"The issue of whether a ballot was needed for a national strike had been complicated by the actions of previous NUM leader Joe Gormley. When wage reforms were rejected by two national ballots, Gormley declared that each region could decide on these reforms on its own accord; his decisions had been upheld by courts on appeal. Scargill did not call a ballot for national strike action, perhaps due to uncertainty over the outcome. Instead, he attempted to start the strike by allowing each region to call its own strikes, imitating Gormley's strategy over wage reforms; it was argued that 'safe' regions should not be allowed to ballot other regions out of jobs. This decision was upheld by another vote five weeks into the strike. Many miners, especially at the threatened pits, were also opposed to a ballot because of the time required to organise one and the urgency of the situation arising from the accelerated closure programme. There was a fear that strike supporters would refuse to take part in a ballot. Critics point out that Scargill's policy of letting each region decide seemed inconsistent with the threatened expulsion of the Nottinghamshire branch after 20,000 out of 27,000 miners in the county voted against the strike."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miners%27_strike_%281984%E2%80%9385%29#Action_begins
-
Strange I remember voting in a national ballot
-
Glyn, The year before the strike the num had a ballot to give the union the power to call an all out strike on pit closure issues,the ballot was unanimous,becuse the nots miners did not aggree with this a year later they all called for another ballot which was never going to happen.love him or hate him arthur scargill quoted that pit closures we going to happen untill there were none left,there are only a few left now.
No mention of a national vote on that Google page, do you know of a link to something about it?
Scargill might have been right about the Tory's policy, but it doesn't make the self-centred way he used the union right.
-
"Family club" is a term I despise.
Completely agree - football as a working class sport has completely lost its identity, and we're one of the worst culprits for it in my opinion!
-
Right, I'm going to lock this thread unless it goes back on topic.
We don't want a debate on the rights and wrongs of the miners strike, take that off topic.
However I do believe a debate on the miners strike and how it fits with football support is relevant, they are both community issues.
-
I voted in a national ballot in 83 giving the NUM power to call an all out strike over pit closures and so did the rest of the country
-
Whats up Sm is it because its more interesting than all the other posts on here
-
Shaun as did I but it has gone slightly off topic - unfortunately some people do not know the truth hence I felt I had to mention the votes
In relation to OP the banner has the same implications in and around Doncaster and well recall chants of scabs mainly against Mansfield
-
No, it's because it's a football forum.
-
But it happens at football and it always gets a good debate which must be good for the forum.....isn't it
-
I voted in a national ballot in 83 giving the NUM power to call an all out strike over pit closures and so did the rest of the country
There seems to be no mention of any such ballot anywhere on the whole internet. Not even any mention of Scargill claiming one as a mandate for the strike and I certainly don't remember him doing so at the time either...
I would be interested in finding out about it though, and why it wasn't given as a mandate at the time of the strike itself...
-
Goal not dole...
-
Glyn, are you not paying attention?
-
I'm just trying to learn about a ballot I'd not heard of before in relation to the strike.
However, until someone can give me a link to the details of when it was held and what the actual wording of the ballot was I'll have to assume that it was not relevant to the strike given that the NUM itself didn't invoke it when calling a strike in 1984.
-
Glyn, are you not paying attention?
Boom! Sit down Glyn.
-
I see more smoke grenades were let off by away fans yesterday, didn't see any ejections. Bet if one of our fans set one off they'd be kicked out.
-
Glyn
March 1983
Scargill's strike strategy
It is important to understand in this context that the National Union of Mineworkers was a federation, which is to say that it was composed of a number of separate district unions each based on a regional coal field. So whilst there was a national NUM organization there were also quite separate and autonomous regional NUMs.
In order to declare a national strike, Rule 43 of the constitution of the national union required a ballot to be held and a 55% majority majority in favour of a strike. Scargill knew or suspected that he would not be able to win a ballot in favour of a strike on the issue of pit closures. (Two previous national ballots, the most recent in March 1983, had failed to win the required majority in favour of a strike over this very issue.) He thus devised an alternative strategy. Since Rule 41 of the union's constitution allowed the NUM national executive to declare official any strike called in one of its constituent areas, his plan was to allow the more militant constituent unions to go on strike, declare their strikes official, and then endeavour to spread these local strikes nationally.
http://everything2.com/title/Miners+Strike+of+1984-1985
-
There was a ballot late 1983 for action up to and including strike action that was passed - this led to initially an overtime ban
-
There was a ballot late 1983 for action up to and including strike action that was passed - this led to initially an overtime ban
Wilts Rover's link says it wasn't passed....
...which would make the Notts miners right.
-
Much discussion on the dingle forum about this thread as well. http://bbs.barnsleyfc.org.uk/showthread.php?206577-Coal-Not-Dole-banner-mentioned-amp-pictured-on-Pikeys-Forum-link
-
Saying people don't know about things that happened before they were born is nonsense.
-
It's a little bit sad in my opinion. For some perspective it happened before I was even born.
A little bit sad that you are dismissing a huge part of local history which affected the whole community in various ways back then in 84/85. Is it sad we stand around the cenotaph every 11/11, you weren't around in both world wars either.
-
Why is football the only sport to have such stupid social rivalries? Don't see it in Rugby Union, Cricket, Boxing, Tennis, Netball, Basketball, etc etc etc. The fact that I go to watch Doncaster Rovers doesn't mean I have any other thing in common with anyone else in that stadium - and I certainly don't want them speaking for me about anything at all. In fact, for a while now I've been struggling with the tribal nonsense being spouted by footy fans - where I sit you can hear racist, sexist, homophobic language, from time to time, and it's not pleasant - perhaps this is a contributory factor to the dwindling crowds or the inability of the club to grow it's fanbase?
The miners strike was an appalling social period for South Yorkshire and many other areas - and I'm not a tory voter - but the fact remains that bringing the coal out of the ground cost more money than it was worth (Which is why the coal fields haven't been opened up again in the age of new technology and profit). What Thatcher and her lot did was to try and save money - what they didn't do was ensure entire areas were properly supported through the change.
Footy-wise, I've not been for a few games because I'm sick of hearing the same old thicko's shouting angry words at people a long way away for reasons which are still, to this day, unfathomable.
-
I guess Wilts posting something from wiki makes it right then
The bit in the post actually states early 83, there was another ballot later in the year that resulted in an overtime ban as the first stage of industrial action, my memory tells me this was a national action
-
Why is football the only sport to have such stupid social rivalries? Don't see it in Rugby Union, Cricket, Boxing, Tennis, Netball, Basketball, etc etc etc. The fact that I go to watch Doncaster Rovers doesn't mean I have any other thing in common with anyone else in that stadium - and I certainly don't want them speaking for me about anything at all. In fact, for a while now I've been struggling with the tribal nonsense being spouted by footy fans - where I sit you can hear racist, sexist, homophobic language, from time to time, and it's not pleasant - perhaps this is a contributory factor to the dwindling crowds or the inability of the club to grow it's fanbase?
The miners strike was an appalling social period for South Yorkshire and many other areas - and I'm not a tory voter - but the fact remains that bringing the coal out of the ground cost more money than it was worth (Which is why the coal fields haven't been opened up again in the age of new technology and profit). What Thatcher and her lot did was to try and save money - what they didn't do was ensure entire areas were properly supported through the change.
Footy-wise, I've not been for a few games because I'm sick of hearing the same old thicko's shouting angry words at people a long way away for reasons which are still, to this day, unfathomable.
Have you ever considered the idea that this is the reason why football is the most popular and supported sport in the world?
Rugby, and Tennis and Snooker are all well in good if your a fan of sporting prowess - but lets face it, it isn't the sporting prowess that gets people turning out to watch Accrington Stanley is it? Its the sense of being involved in something bigger than that, being part of a community united by its sense of pride in its local territory... thats what its all about, thats where the pleasure comes from!
Sure, to some people, they want to watch THE BEST athletes push the achievable boundaries and pull of something spectacular, and they are more than entitled to spend their money in that way, but they are the perhaps 10% of football fans buying Barcelona and (what used to be) Manchester United shirts... and i feel for them, because they are missing out on the best bit about football, the bit that sets it apart from tennis - the stomach fizzing buzz that comes from standing alongside someone else with a passion and pride, singing their lungs out over their territory, accepting you into that body of likewise supporters. Football isn't just a sport, its a feeling, its a family, its taking that working class lad and giving him something to believe in. Granted it can be aggressive, and archaic, and intimidating - what else is to be expected of something fuelled on testosterone?
For me, i think the exact opposite, i think the dwindling crowds and fanbase is because so many footballing governing bodies are trying to market against that sort of environment, make it a 'family sport', take away the sense of local identity and rivalry out of fears of safety and political correctness. Football was born from the working classes, and it has sold its soul for the middle class dream - it isn't affordable or accessible to the rough and ready much anymore... it caters to those season ticket holders who sit with a flask and applaud heartily. And for me, thats a travesty.
Just look at how many people (people that would be considered louts by the new footballing bourgeois) attend the darts these days? And why? Because its a fun event, you can have a few drinks, chant a few songs, and just have a bit of a (granted masculine) laugh - even Snooker is going that way... because it realises that the sport in itself isn't interesting enough!
The English game and its disregard to the working classes citing 'the 70's and 80's' as some sort of justification that every council estate supporter is an uneducated thug and a potential security threat is completely misguided (in the same vein as the way miners were treat by the government) and this prawn sandwich generation of football supporters are leaving us in the dust in terms of value for money on the matchday experience compared to countries such as Germany and Poland who are ever growing as footballing communities (and atmospheres)!
-
Its very easy to dissmiss it pod if you wern't there.It still hurts very much to all involved.If only we sang about football matters at games but we,and every other club don't.
Of coutse it hurts Shaun even after all these years but you can get help for it surely. There are many on here that were miners/supported families of miners (in my case) however we do have to move on or we stay in the Dark Ages a la Barnsley.
Shouting 'Scabs' is a pisspoor piece of supposed banter at best. I hope folk now stop it ........32 years ago and we still haven't moved on ffs !!
-
I'm with Hoola on this - fully supportive of the miners' cause at the time, but I don't think "Scab" chants are relevant today. Especially with the vitriol that some of these chants are delivered. And I really don't get it when "we" chant "you only sing when you're scabbing" - so they have been quiet for 29 years then?
-
Personally I must thank Arthur, as I was set to go down the mines at Hatfield Pit, but it was scuppered by the strike, and alas I went studying at Nth East London Poly. How different ones life may have been.
That said, I was a big supporter of my dad and family who were on strike and stood side by side with them (until Sept when I went to London).
I will be singing Scabs, Scabs and I will be singing 'Sing when you're scabbing' at Forest, County and Mansfield and always will.
I've still got the historical feelings (and I appreciate the younger ones may not have), and my lad has been told about the meaning. I do it also to gain the upper hand against the away support and to piss them off.
It's done all the time re North/South.........
on the dole, on the dole, on the dole
sign on, sign on, sign on
Oh Doncaster is wonderful
Oh (*insert name of town or county) is full of shit
Yorkshire, Yorkshire
Town full of inbreds
God knows how many REligious/bigot songs
etc etc
It's good ole footy banter/rivalry and fans will use anything to get one over the opposition, usually if it's in good taste, and sometimes poor taste.
I wouldn't class Scab songs in poor taste, just historic rivalries rekindled for that 90mins. It is our recent community history, and one not be forgotten or cast aside too easily
-
Roversdue - from what I can see the overtime ban in October 1983 came about after NUM Special Delegate Conference on 21 October rejected the NCM pay offer. No mention of a ballot of members and I would be suprised if members were ballotted over an overtime ban. Perhaps some delegates maybe balloted their members as to which way they should vote, but I would expect that to have been done at branch meetings.