Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: River Don on March 12, 2014, 09:11:53 pm
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Today in the middle of town, I witnessed a mother admonishing her daughter of maybe nine years old with the words "why don't you go and f***ing cry to your Dad because he doesn't love you either"
While another bloke was telling this obnoxious woman exactly what he thought of her and a slanging match developed in the middle of the street, I quietly said to the crying little girl, tell your teacher about the things your mum says. I hope she does.
Maybe I should have done more but what can you do?
I don't know if I've ever see anything quite as appalling as this.
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You can report this sort of thing to the police, as it falls under emotional abuse. You could also report an incident to social services, and it would be noted.
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Amongst the tirade this scum woman's defence of her opinion, was "it's people like you who make me like this"...
Talk about failing to take responsibility.
There was no sign of helplessness or despair about this woman. Anger, hatred, defiance and a strange sort of pride is how I would describe her attitude.
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I'd have made a citizen's arrest and then rung for the police. This woman would then have been given a lecture about how much of a scumbag she was and that she should have been sterilised before she ever got the chance to have children. If she got violent I would have protected myself by punching her very hard in the face.
Hopefully she would have then learned her lesson and would be nice to her daughter in future.
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Well you couldn't have made a citizen's arrest...
Do you know, per chance, under what circumstances you're allowed to make one? because this doesn't fall into any of them...
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Another good advert for compulsory sterilisation
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Well you couldn't have made a citizen's arrest...
Do you know, per chance, under what circumstances you're allowed to make one? because this doesn't fall into any of them...
If memory serves, you can make a citizens arrest for an offence which CAN result in a jail sentence of 5 years or more. Not that the specific circumstances of an individual offence would warrant such a term, but that the offence in general could do so. For example, "assault" in some circumstances can generate such a stretch, therefore you can perform a citizens arrest when someone hits someone else. You need to be careful not to use specific terms like assault or GBH as they have specific meanings. Also you wouldn't read someone placed under citizens arrest their rights.
This was the information I had some years ago, but I cannot be certain if anything has changed.
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Well you couldn't have made a citizen's arrest...
Do you know, per chance, under what circumstances you're allowed to make one? because this doesn't fall into any of them...
If memory serves, you can make a citizens arrest for an offence which CAN result in a jail sentence of 5 years or more. Not that the specific circumstances of an individual offence would warrant such a term, but that the offence in general could do so. For example, "assault" in some circumstances can generate such a stretch, therefore you can perform a citizens arrest when someone hits someone else. You need to be careful not to use specific terms like assault or GBH as they have specific meanings. Also you wouldn't read someone placed under citizens arrest their rights.
This was the information I had some years ago, but I cannot be certain if anything has changed.
Aye but there's nothing in the OP that would carry that kind of jail sentence. Not that I can see anyway.
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Well you couldn't have made a citizen's arrest...
Do you know, per chance, under what circumstances you're allowed to make one? because this doesn't fall into any of them...
If memory serves, you can make a citizens arrest for an offence which CAN result in a jail sentence of 5 years or more. Not that the specific circumstances of an individual offence would warrant such a term, but that the offence in general could do so. For example, "assault" in some circumstances can generate such a stretch, therefore you can perform a citizens arrest when someone hits someone else. You need to be careful not to use specific terms like assault or GBH as they have specific meanings. Also you wouldn't read someone placed under citizens arrest their rights.
This was the information I had some years ago, but I cannot be certain if anything has changed.
Aye but there's nothing in the OP that would carry that kind of jail sentence. Not that I can see anyway.
No, because contrary to what someone else ahs mentioned, emotional abuse, while against the law when direct at an adult, is not against the law when against a child. There is an MP who is trying to get legislation though at the moment to make it against the law when directed at children.
Also, with regards to Citizen's Arrest, you can only make one if you personally have seen the offence committed. So smartarse Mick would have acted unlawfully on two counts.
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I did a bit of reading since I posted. Apparently for a citizens arrest, the offence needs to be one that would go to crown court, not magistrates. Quite serious then, but not sure if 5 years still applies.
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I'd have still made a citizen's arrest. The lecture that I would have given the woman and the fact that I was restraining her would have hopefully angered her so much that she would have attacked me. This then would have given me the grounds for the arrest.
The worst that could have happened is that the nice policeman when he came would have advised me that I was in the wrong by arresting her. He would have explained that I did the right thing but unfortunately because the law is an ass I shouldn't have done it.
However I'm confident enough in my skills of goading that I'm sure she would have attacked me. I would then have had her prosecuted and done my best to get her locked up. Sorted.
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It's not true that you can't make a citizens arrest on somebody who is emotionally abusing a child or minor in a public place, because you can.
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Thank you Andy. I thought I was right. However I would have been prepared to use my commonsense to bend the rules a bit if I had to for the greater good of the child.
It's time more adults stood up for abused children instead of hiding behind the law.
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You can't arrest someone for something they haven't done yet?
However I'm confident enough in my skills of goading that I'm sure she would have attacked me. I would then have had her prosecuted and done my best to get her locked up. Sorted.
But your goading would have mitigated her actions somewhat, thereby reducing the chances of a custodial sentence, even a conviction.
Part of me hopes you are only controversial online just to stimulate debate, and this is not your real persona.
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It's not true that you can't make a citizens arrest on somebody who is emotionally abusing a child or minor in a public place, because you can.
Is it? Not doubting you one moment Andy, but I would be interested to hear chapter and verse on that.
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But your goading would have mitigated her actions somewhat, thereby reducing the chances of a custodial sentence, even a conviction.
She would not have gone to prison for abusing the child. My plan would have been to get her to hit me so I could get her prosecuted so she could then go to jail.
I've watched enough football matches to be able to make the attack look and seem a lot worse than it actually is thus improving the chances of conviction.
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You don't think your provocation would be relevant to the case for the defence then?
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I'd have still made a citizen's arrest. The lecture that I would have given the woman and the fact that I was restraining her would have hopefully angered her so much that she would have attacked me. This then would have given me the grounds for the arrest.
The worst that could have happened is that the nice policeman when he came would have advised me that I was in the wrong by arresting her. He would have explained that I did the right thing but unfortunately because the law is an ass I shouldn't have done it.
However I'm confident enough in my skills of goading that I'm sure she would have attacked me. I would then have had her prosecuted and done my best to get her locked up. Sorted.
Actually the "nice policeman" could arrest you for false imprisonment, kidnap or attempted kidnapping, abh, gbh or a multitude of other things :)
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I get visions of Beavis & Butthead behind the Mick persona
"Heh-heh, heh-heh. Let's like....wind somebody up about....like....citizen's arrest."
"Huh-huh, huh. Heh-heh heh. That'd be like...cool."
"Shut it butt-munch."
"Heh-heh, heh. Heh-heh, heh."
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I'm being totally serious. One way or the other the bitch would have gone to prison.
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Poor child and I can imagine what that girl must see and hear at home. She'll be mentally scarred for her life. It's child abuse no less. You'd have got my support with whatever you were trying to do to protect her. Good man you.
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It's not true that you can't make a citizens arrest on somebody who is emotionally abusing a child or minor in a public place, because you can.
What's the crime?
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Lets not let a hypothetical debate about citizens arrest get in the way of what the OP has posted - a child was in distress and being dealt with by her mother in a way most of us (I assume) would think unacceptable.
Perhaps the OP could contact social services (or the police), with an estimate of where and when this occurred. It may be that the incident was caught on CCTV. Whilst that would not have picked up on what was said, it may help social services identify the child and parent. It may be that they are known to the authorities already, and couple the visual recordings with the OP's witness statements would be useful evidence for the authorities.
This may or may not have been an isolated incident and it is impossible to judge the whole situation just on one incident. To goad the parent into further incidents ie inciting violence may even be an offence in itself? I dunno? It is certainly irresponsible - how does inciting violence protect that child, especially in the immediate moments?
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Emotional abuse can be reported to the police or social services. If either feel it breaches the Children Act, i.e. represents significant harm, then they can begin safeguarding or child protection measures.
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To goad the parent into further incidents ie inciting violence may even be an offence in itself? I dunno? It is certainly irresponsible - how does inciting violence protect that child, especially in the immediate moments?
It protects the child because when I get my Oscar for my performance after she's hit me a few times she goes straight into custody and then after the court case to prison.
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To goad the parent into further incidents ie inciting violence may even be an offence in itself? I dunno? It is certainly irresponsible - how does inciting violence protect that child, especially in the immediate moments?
It protects the child because when I get my Oscar for my performance after she's hit me a few times she goes straight into custody and then after the court case to prison.
You weren't there, so your proposed antics are hypothetical and would most likely not work. Incitement would probably cause the case to collapse and you could face action yourself. You think that inciting volence in front of a child would do any good for that child's protection issues?
Anyway, what are you going on about oscar winning for, when a REAL incident has happened.
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I'm giving advice as to what people should do if they see a similar incident. I can only go on what I would do.
Reporting her to Doncaster Social Services would be a right waste of time. I seem to remember seeing on the news that they are the worst in the country. In this instance we need to take the law into our own hands and get the result that the child needs through fair means or foul.
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I'm giving advice as to what people should do if they see a similar incident. I can only go on what I would do.
Reporting her to Doncaster Social Services would be a right waste of time. I seem to remember seeing on the news that they are the worst in the country. In this instance we need to take the law into our own hands and get the result that the child needs through fair means or foul.
And that would be a disaster. To enable child protection to work you must work within the law and within the child protection procedures the authorities employ. Your actions would fuel any defence case this woman may have, which could cause a judge to order that the child remains with her, never mind not convict her.
You assume it would be Doncaster social services involved - initially maybe, but if the family in question lives in an area that is under a different council authority, then the latter would take responsibility for child protection matters from a social services perspective.
This is a real case - the proper authorities should be informed.
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http://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/aug/09/guide-to-citizens-arrest
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Today in the middle of town, I witnessed a mother admonishing her daughter of maybe nine years old with the words "why don't you go and f***ing cry to your Dad because he doesn't love you either"
While another bloke was telling this obnoxious woman exactly what he thought of her and a slanging match developed in the middle of the street, I quietly said to the crying little girl, tell your teacher about the things your mum says. I hope she does.
Maybe I should have done more but what can you do?
I don't know if I've ever see anything quite as appalling as this.
Go report what you saw, today if you can. Try and contact the child services at the local council authority if you can. Even if there is nothing they can do for this specific incident, they could retain your information for future reference should this family come under their investigation later.
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If she got violent I would have protected myself by punching her very hard in the face.
Hopefully she would have then learned her lesson and would be nice to her daughter in future.
That sounds horrific. Armed with a tupperware and guitar, the full force of 6 stone behind a punch might have made her feel it.
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Trust me. I'd be up for manslaughter if I connected properly.
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Trust me. I'd be up for manslaughter if I connected properly.
So you t**tting this woman, for all her faults, seems more important to you (whether you mean to or not you do give that impression) than the protection of the child?
What are you trying to do, prove how hard you are, or just trying to look like a stupid Kitson?
And yes, I use strong language at you on this occasion, why? because you AGAIN are detracting from the REAL ISSUE of this one particular child and her mother's actions, by going on about how you would act.
Who the f**k do you think you are? Batman? Trying to make yourself out as a hero of child protection in some perverted way that by encouraging a fight, with a woman, that some how her following incarceration would help protect the child.
Stop making this all about YOU with all this hypothetical stuff about what you would have done etc. You have no idea about child protection, so I suggest you leave this well alone and go post on other threads instead.
I really honestly hope you are not like this in real life, and this is just for effect on the forum.
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I'm merely giving advice as to how someone should carry on if they came across a similar situation in future.
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I'm merely giving advice as to how someone should carry on if they came across a similar situation in future.
Inappropriate advice too, to encourage violence in an already tense situation. Such acts would get laughed out of court. You are advocating vigilante action, which won't help.
Oh, and detracting from the actual issues.
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Another good advert for compulsory sterilisation
It made me chuckle !
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You have no idea
Doesn't usually stop him wading into a thread and ruining it by making it all about him.
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I'm sure IC1967 is really my wife in disguise.
She has a knack of making everything about her, and ruining anything that isn't!!
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Inappropriate advice too, to encourage violence in an already tense situation. Such acts would get laughed out of court. You are advocating vigilante action, which won't help.
Oh, and detracting from the actual issues.
Look, it's very simple. That woman is not a fit mother. She needs to be out of that child's life before she does more damage. Reporting her to the Social Services is not going to achieve anything. In these situations you need to use creative thinking. If I 'persuaded' her to attack me I could then get her done for GBH. She would then go to prison and problem sorted.
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No it isn't, you WEREN'T there. The witness to this REAL incident is the only one who can take action, and report it to the social services or police.
Your suggestions of how to react in the same scenario are ludicrous to the extreme. To try and goad someone into committing GBH is going to help her defence, and may result in her not going to prison, you spanner! Also you have forgotten you said you would also use extreme violence back to her, so where does that put you? I would guess in court if not for assault then certainly for affray?
In another thread you claimed to be acting gentlemanly when addressing a female poster, then on here you claim you would hit a woman "very hard", and said "Trust me. I'd be up for manslaughter if I connected properly." How gentlemanly is that? You arrogant prick.
Back to the real issue of the OP, who are YOU to judge that this woman is an unfit mother, you weren't there! She may be unfit, but that is NOT for you nor I to judge. This may have been a one off isolated (although very disturbing) incident.
And yes, the social services ARE the correct authorities to deal with this, regardless of your opinion, and would bring the mother to court if necessary, as part of their child protection procedures.
If you think that is wrong and ineffective, then stand for council or parliament and campaign for policy and law changes yourself. Suggesting vigilante action is not the answer, you must have watched too many films I think.
And one final thought to leave you with - you would goad a woman into assaulting you, and then you would be violent back to her, IN FRONT OF A CHILD!!!!! How would that help the child?
Jesus H Christ you are a f**king idiot! I have no problem with you being controversial on here to stimulate debate but this is a real incident with real people we are talking about.
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I was only putting a hypothetical case for the benefit of others if they were involved in a similar situation in future. 'Persuading' her to attack me then gives me grounds for self defence. If I stuck one on her I'd only be guilty of defending myself. No way would I go down for that. However she would be guilty of launching the attack (which I would make a right meal of) and in all likelihood go to jail.
Social services are a waste of time in Donny. Given this is the case it is incumbent on us all to take the law into our own hands when faced with such a situation.
I know enough of this incident to know that this woman is not a fit mother. I don't think the young girl would be traumatised if I laid her mother out. She'd probably be very glad given the abuse she has obviously had to put up with.
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OK enough is enough. You know f**k all, only what's on this thread. Persuading her to attack you would go against YOU in her case should it go to court. How could you argue self defence against an attack you provoked? You really are a complete fool.
I've pointed out the blatantly obvious to you several times, and if you think that a 9 year old child would be glad to witness first hand violence of any kind, then you are more of a stupid Kitson than I thought.
Are you getting off on this? You need to take a long hard look at what you write because believe me, it is total bullshit.
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I stand by what I said. Self defence would mean I wouldn't get into trouble. She would not be justified in attacking me just because of what I said to her.
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Then you are a f**kwit. Self defence wouldn't apply where you provoke the violence, or at least her actioons would be mitigated.
So in your scenario, when another bloke appears on the scene who hasn't witnessed the original verbal abuse of the child, sees you assaulting a woman, then comes to her defence by beating seven shades of shite out of you, then by your logic he would be as "innocent" as you.
I have pointed out the flaws in your logic at least 4 times now, and highlighted that this is bad for the child - it isn't about you.
Now it is about time for you to f**k off, I mean, really, just f**k off and spread your bullshit elsewhere.
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There isn't a child on earth who would enjoy seeing a stranger causing a scene then thumping their mother, even if she is abusive... Children aren't wired that way and if you had any understanding of them you wouldn't even be suggesting it.. She would blame herself for getting her mother thumped.. Even in sexual abuse cases more often than not the child will blame themselves instead of the true criminal, the real monster, the abuser.
The incident is over. Nothing can be done about this little girl because we nothing about her or her family, as a specific case there is nothing to identify either of them. all that could be done as others have said is report what was seen in case they are already in the system.
Sadly child services will be over worked and probably under staffed and the odds are stacked against this woman ever being pulled up.
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Sadly child services will be over worked and probably under staffed and the odds are stacked against this woman ever being pulled up.
Exactly. That's why I would take the law into my own hands. I'm not a one for standing by and letting a cruel mother get away with it.
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Trust me. I'd be up for manslaughter if I connected properly.
More likely mans laughter, you pussy !!
Six stone wet through
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Sadly child services will be over worked and probably under staffed and the odds are stacked against this woman ever being pulled up.
I would take the law into my own hands
clueless....
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I'm sorry you feel that you don't have a clue. Leave it to me. I have all the answers.
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I'm sorry you feel that you don't have a clue. Leave it to me. I have all the answers.
But to the wrong questions.
You really do leave yourself open :)
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You are clueless about child protection. You knew that's what I meant, so stop trying to twist things.
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I know enough about Donny Social Services to know they would do nothing about this type of incident. You are naive if you think otherwise.
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You may make assumptions about the social services, and you may be right - but that does not justify taking the law into your own hands, especially in the way you suggest.
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Yes it does. If I see a young person in trouble and I know the authorities will do nothing I will not walk away and leave the poor child to take the consequences. It is a sad reflection on our society that most people these days won't get involved.
Just like you they think it's not their problem and the authorities will sort things out. That's where you are completely wrong. It may make you sleep easier in your bed at night but you are derogating your responsibilities to someone else even though deep down inside you know this 'someone else' will do nothing to sort the problem out.
Why do you think this woman behaved as she did? Because she assumed from previous experience that she could get away with it because people like you leave everything to the authorities. She knows the authorities won't do anything and is laughing in your face. Well she wouldn't laugh in my face I can tell you.
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Why do you think this woman behaved as she did? Because she assumed from previous experience that she could get away with it because people like you leave everything to the authorities. She knows the authorities won't do anything and is laughing in your face. Well she wouldn't laugh in my face I can tell you.
No, you are making all the assumptions here, based on entirely what the OP wrote. Unless you are working in doncaster social services you cannot predict how they would react, even if they do have a poor reputation. Anyway, if you don't trust them you report the incident to the police, who you clearly trust. So if you trust the police as much as you say you do on the other thread, you let them get on with upholding the law, and avoid potentially breaking the law yourself by being a vigilante.
You are a f**king hypocrite. I say again, you know nothing of child protection.
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I know plenty as I've already demonstrated. Who do you think the police get involved after their initial involvement in an incident like this? I'll tell you. The useless social services. Well not on my watch.
You may sleep easier in your bed thinking you've done all you could, when you really know you have done nothing to help the poor child. I on the other hand would have made a difference. It is such a shame that most people these days are like you and won't stand up and be counted. There is no way this pathetic excuse of a mother would have got away with this behaviour in my parent's day. Unfortunately because people like you won't get involved anymore the bitch thinks it's OK to behave as she does.
Just let her try it again if I'm nearby.
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What about in your other parent's day Mick?
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I know plenty as I've already demonstrated. Who do you think the police get involved after their initial involvement in an incident like this? I'll tell you. The useless social services. Well not on my watch.
You may sleep easier in your bed thinking you've done all you could, when you really know you have done nothing to help the poor child. I on the other hand would have made a difference. It is such a shame that most people these days are like you and won't stand up and be counted. There is no way this pathetic excuse of a mother would have got away with this behaviour in my parent's day. Unfortunately because people like you won't get involved anymore the bitch thinks it's OK to behave as she does.
Just let her try it again if I'm nearby.
Demonstrated, where? show me, prove it. All you have done is spout your ill-thought opinions based on what others have written here.
All you have demonstrated is that you are a total clown, you know f**k all about child protection and what the authorities are expected to do.
For what it is worth my partner and I are registered as foster parents and have been for several years, with certified training in child protection, OK maybe not to the levels of fully qualified social workers but enough to know that you are talking out of your arse.
Fair enough you may have a bad opinion of the social services, but you clearly trust the police. Yet you advocate breaking the law. I have a mind to report your last post given the threatening tone you show to a person you don't know, for a situation you didn't witness. Anything you claim actually happened is only hearsay.
People like me? I'd rather be like me with all my failings, because believe me I know I have them, than a complete fool like you. As I have said several times, I really hope that this idiotic persona is something you only exhibit virtually?
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Credit to you for being foster parents. You are a credit to society.
I'm baffled though. Given that you have a lot of experience of social services, then you should know they are useless. You should know that they would do nothing with an incident like this.
I really am at a loss to understand the way your mind works but take back my 'people like you comment'. You have already done more than 99% of the population to help these poor children that have crap parents and are to be commended.
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Mick, does Caroline ever read this forum? I wonder what she'd think if she did.
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Credit to you for being foster parents. You are a credit to society.
I'm baffled though. Given that you have a lot of experience of social services, then you should know they are useless. You should know that they would do nothing with an incident like this.
I really am at a loss to understand the way your mind works but take back my 'people like you comment'. You have already done more than 99% of the population to help these poor children that have crap parents and are to be commended.
I do trust the social services, where I live anyway which isn't Doncaster. They do have failings, but that is due to constantly shrinking funding. And yes, they would be reliant on being informed of such incidents to build up a case. For any legal action, they would need to follow the correct procedures otherwise risk their case being dismissed - not because of the evidence etc - but simply by not following the legal proceedings properly. This is also an argument against vigilante-ism.
And anyway, I repeat, if you witness such an event, then report it to the police who you trust. If they then believe a crime is committed they can go to the CPS to arrange prosecution.
Back to what the OP reported, if you had taken the action you suggested in front of the child, that would be wrong as it would be potentially even more damaging to the child.
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IDM, I do a lot of social services transport jobs and deal with Children in foster care or children in local authority children's homes and foster carers on a regular basis. Each child in the care of social services has issues that are unique to them, be it mental, behavioural, emotional, or physical issues, you already know this being a foster carer. But for Micks benefit I'll back you up regarding social services, believe me our brief from social services transport is to report anything that is remotely odd, it might be something thats said in conversation that seems pretty innocuous, it's about learning those little signs that could make all the difference. With Doncaster Social Services being in special measures recently, I don't know if they still are, they are on the ball with everything, to the point that if we taxi drivers miss something while transporting these kids, they want to know why, despite us not being aware of the background of the kids we're transporting. Mick hasn't a clue how Social Services operate!
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I have a lot of time for social workers and you Filo are also to be commended for your work helping these poor children. It is not the fault of social workers that the situation is so bad. It is the level of funding they receive and all the red tape that causes most of the problems.
I am a cut through the red tape type of person and am prepared to stand up and be counted even if this means I may risk my liberty in protecting those that cannot protect themselves.
I must say though that I have been heartened to read the posts of IDM and Filo. You have both helped restore my faith in human nature (a little bit).
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You are quite right Filo, sometimes an off the cuff remark that may mean nothing on its own will be essential to the whole case. Also, and you will know this as well, it is often the parents that have issues, not the children, but the children come under local authority awareness and or care in order to protect them.
IC1967, or Mick, whoever you are, we respond to you in this thread in the way we do, not because we want to disagree for the sake of it, nor to have a pop at you personally if you have a reputation for being controversial on here. But in this case your potential approach whilst you may believe you have a commonsense or even moral justification, the actions would not help the child nor the police or social services' case in respect of that family.
That's all - the rest is just reaction and answering individual points.