Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: podrover73 on May 06, 2014, 09:47:27 am
-
Wanting to mess with the league structure again
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27289819
-
F.A............Fannying Around................bloody meddlesome pillocks, christ they must be bored shitless on the board of the F.A. "What can we think of today that'll justify our highly inflated wage packets.....Oh, wait a minute, I've got a great idea".
-
Oh no no no no no no please NO! I know that they do this in Spain but we don't need it here
-
Do we need to see clubs like Portsmouth, Bradford, Luton etc playing Premier league B teams? No we do not. How about we invest money into the infrastructure of the smaller clubs and give these players loans at lower levels - it's silly.
The FA needs to remember that the likely Premier league champions this year were in league 1 not that long back....
-
This would kill the competition and rivalry in the leagues, awful idea.
-
Germans back it (presently)
-
It won't happen. The backlash from football supporters up and down the country will put an end to this.
Game 39 anyone?
-
Rubbish idea it will mean replacing some of the away days to proper clubs with visits to empty 40,000 seat stadiums. He clearly means well but this will just ruin the football league if allowed to happen
-
A simple no from me, it will devalue the competitions and what the proper clubs are trying to achieve, if anything it will make fans loose interrest because the 'B' temas will not take the competitions as seriously
why don't they create a league system to run along side the current pyramid but only put reserve 'B' teams in there. You would have promotions and relegations and it would be run without a transfer system meaning the clubs would have to find their resource from within,
Fins ou which teams want to take place (can afford it) divide the number into 4 divisions and pick names out of a hat to see who goes in what division, e.g. Chelsea youth could play against Chesterfield youth in the 1st division. you would have promotions, relegations and playoff's with the winner of each league getting a trophy and cash prize for example
that is something I would watch and it would give the competitive edge needed to make the youth players develop the edge and skill needed to develop
just an idea
-
We have a great structure in our league pyramid - look at our own ups and downs in the last 20 years for example?
How difficult would it be for clubs like Yeovil, Stevenage, Dagenham etc to make progress if they have to compete with premiership B teams? The loan system would dry up too - Johnstone would have been playing maybe in League 2 for Man Utd B instead of playing for us, Khumalo in Spurs B..???
I know in some countries (Germany???) this happens but the B sides cannot get promotion..
A big NO THANK YOU for me.
-
I suppose it depends what the objective is.
A competitive England national team? Then yes this could help.
A better league structure?
Then no, probably not a great idea.
-
It would be a terrible move for me. But then again, I don't really give a toss about the competitiveness of the England team, and I see the lower leagues as a much bigger priority, so I would say that.
-
A competitive England national team? Then yes this could help.
How?
Unless the B league was restricted to English players, what is to stop Arsenal (for example) signing up the next generation of predominantly French youngsters for their B squad?
Loaning out the young British players to proper leagues is better IMHO.
-
This would just be a great excuse for the bigger clubs to 'hoover up' even more of the young talent that exists. No, what's needed is better investment at grass roots level, more coaches, better rewarded coaches, 3G pitches, etc etc.
-
Elite Player Performance Plan let's Premier League teams steal lower league youngsters and now they want B teams in order to develop them youngsters? Here's an idea get rid of EPPP and don't stockpile British youngsters.
-
It seems a hare-brained idea to me. Far better that young players can be loaned out to clubs in the Football League. If this "League" sits at League Two/ Conference level then a youngster like Sam Johnstone won't get the kind of experience that he's just had against Championship-standard players.
I believe it would be restricted to "home-grown" players, but if the same criteria for "home-grown" is used for PL squads then that will include players who are not qualified for England.
-
It's not even been outlined in full yet but it's seemingly been written off by all and sundry.
Perhaps, just perhaps, it's worth a try. The present system is increasingly flawed.
-
FAO silent majority
Is the fsf able to make representation against this appalling idea
It flies in the face of tradition in this country
And if the FA want to do something about the England team restrict the number of foreign players in the Prima Donna league
The fault lies with the upper tier of football (and the FA) and disrupting the football league won't solve it
-
We have a great structure in our league pyramid - look at our own ups and downs in the last 20 years for example?
What is the obsession with describing the English league structure as a pyramid.. it's a straight line down to the conference.. anything below thwei resembling a pyramid is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.. no one is envious if the way the northern counties 3rd division has a regional split!..
-
FAO silent majority
Is the fsf able to make representation against this appalling idea
It flies in the face of tradition in this country
And if the FA want to do something about the England team restrict the number of foreign players in the Prima Donna league
The fault lies with the upper tier of football (and the FA) and disrupting the football league won't solve it
You will never get restrictions on the number of foreign players in the Prima Donna league when most of the clubs in it are owned by foreigners and managed by foreigners.
-
It would effectively take players out of the loan system for clubs like us, as presumably those players would play in a B team. Sam Johnstone, for example.
The structure is fine as is. Why mess with it?
-
I find it incredible how scared of change people get. They're not even prepared to hear the idea, the headline is enough for them to start lobbying for opposition.
-
FAO silent majority
Is the fsf able to make representation against this appalling idea
It flies in the face of tradition in this country
And if the FA want to do something about the England team restrict the number of foreign players in the Prima Donna league
The fault lies with the upper tier of football (and the FA) and disrupting the football league won't solve it
We already have done.
As part of the fact finding mission we were approached for our views and opinions. We've told them in no uncertain terms that we wouldn't be happy.
This is just one idea though amongst a raft of potential ideas and stands no more or less chance than many others.
-
I find it incredible how scared of change people get. They're not even prepared to hear the idea, the headline is enough for them to start lobbying for opposition.
So you'd relish this game Doncaster rovers v burnley b - potentially under this that would happen!
-
Some things are just so plainly wrong.
-
I'd have nothing against merging League Two and Conference to make regional divisions, it can only help with the lower clubs attendances (more away fans, local oppositions) which is relied upon much more than higher up the pyramid which can only make the game more competitive.
As for Premier League and Championship B teams playing among them I'm not so sure. It would definitely help to improve the national squad but at the expense of the footballing pyramids integrity. People may look to the La Liga and Bundesliga as rivals to the Premier League (and rightly so) but you don't compare the leagues below to that of ours because they aren't as competitive.
-
I find it incredible how scared of change people get. They're not even prepared to hear the idea, the headline is enough for them to start lobbying for opposition.
So you'd relish this game Doncaster rovers v burnley b - potentially under this that would happen!
Firstly, it would depend on the wider ramifications and the context in which this had come about.
And secondly, I'd rather reserve my judgement until details are, if ever, released.
What I will say is if it's commonplace in Germany and Spain, then it's not that terrifying.
I'm neither pro nor anti, but the reactionary stance of some on here is pathetic.
-
I've read somewhere (can't remember where) that they're doing away with it in Germany.
The clubs who have B Teams in the 3. Liga (Dortmund, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg etc.) apparently see it as a waste of time, and it's not seen to be helping the national side as they haven't won anything since 1996.
Even so, there seems to be a different culture in other countries, especially in Spain. This may help to explain the relative lack of resistance in the countries where they do this. I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I think I'm right in saying Spanish lower-league football is nowhere near as well supported as the English lower leagues, and doesn't have the same history as the Football League as a proper competition in its own right.
The average attendance in the Spanish second tier in 2013-14 for instance was about 7,000, making it nowhere near as well-watched as the Championship. I don't know how they do further down, but if 2nd tier attendances are that low on average, it suggests that the lower leagues aren't very well supported there.
-
BCS,
It's not being reactionary. It's a subject that's cropped up before. It's been debated and the evidence is that it stockpiles talent and undermines the sporting competition.
If you have the time however there's a link at the bottom of this article that details our submission to Greg Dykes commission.
http://www.fsf.org.uk/latest-news/view/the-fsf-submission-to-fa-commission-2
-
Attendances are drastically lower in Spain and Germany's lower divisions than they are in the football league, and away fan travel isn't as popular. I don't see how ruining football for fans of lower league teams and letting man u and Chelsea hoover up all the best youngsters will help solve anything apart from making the big clubs even more powerful.
-
We have a great structure in our league pyramid - look at our own ups and downs in the last 20 years for example?
What is the obsession with describing the English league structure as a pyramid.. it's a straight line down to the conference.. anything below thwei resembling a pyramid is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.. no one is envious if the way the northern counties 3rd division has a regional split!..
It isn't an obsession, just the most used word to describe the football structure. I get what you mean, but it would be a bit clumsy to call the structure Eiffel Tower shape? We use "ladder" sometimes too.
I find it incredible how scared of change people get. They're not even prepared to hear the idea, the headline is enough for them to start lobbying for opposition.
If it aint broke, don't fix it!
What is wrong with the system now? Apart from the financial gulf between the premier league and everyone else - but how would these proposals change that?
So imagine a B league division was inserted between league 2 and the conference? Despite not being relegated, conference clubs would have to climb one additional rung on the ladder to progress.
One of the great attractions of our system is that clubs can start small and rise - look at Rushden & Diamonds, remember Colne Dynamos? Equally they can fall - where are Stockport now for example? But they can climb back. Just look at our recent history too...
I am all for improving the international scene, but can't see how this proposal would do that. Young english players can get competitive football and develop by going on loan.
-
Just as a side issue how would all this fit in with the financial fair play rules? A premier club would still want a sizable squad but are then directed by the FA to create what is in effect another club? Can b teams be promoted to the prem? Could you have Chelsea v Chelsea b as a title decider?
In my view We are heading for a premier league franchise anyway so a lot of the talk of how this May or may not effect the pyramid is redundant. If that happens I have already made my mind up I'm done with football.
You can see problems already.
-
Strange how Brentford got promoted when Greg Dyke left ;o)
-
It's sad that this idea gets as far as being publshed. Are they looking to gauge reaction? That in itself shows they don't understand what unerpins the foundations of fan's support. Interfere with the free passage from bottom to top, top to bottom and they kill the game.
-
I would be prepared for this afternoon to be honest. Well get to see exactly what he's proposing.
We've submitted our proposals, I do wonder if he's paid attention.
-
It's sad that this idea gets as far as being publshed. Are they looking to gauge reaction? That in itself shows they don't understand what unerpins the foundations of fan's support. Interfere with the free passage from bottom to top, top to bottom and they kill the game.
What a load of nonsense. You haven't even seen the idea - as it's yet to be published - yet you have already written it off.
How about you let them publish it, then you read it, then you decide if you don't like it.
-
It's sad that this idea gets as far as being publshed. Are they looking to gauge reaction? That in itself shows they don't understand what unerpins the foundations of fan's support. Interfere with the free passage from bottom to top, top to bottom and they kill the game.
What a load of nonsense. You haven't even seen the idea - as it's yet to be published - yet you have already written it off.
How about you let them publish it, then you read it, then you decide if you don't like it.
The fans organisations have rubbished it, several club chairmen have done the same, but more importantly the top man at the Football League, Andy Williamson said ' the suggestion is frankly offensive'.
It's a mad cap idea in our league system. The other leagues throughout Europe who employ something similar don't have the depth of professional football that we have.
-
That's all very nice Martin - but how are posters on here able to rubbish an idea that is yet to be published?
Will they be reviewing the third Hobbit film later this week?
-
It doesn't need a great stretch of the imagination to work out the beneficiary's and losers in a system where the PL can introduce B teams into the football pyramid. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of Spanish football will tell you that below the top teams there is no enthusiasm for football. The crowds they attract are laughable. That's the example we should look at??
Under Greg Dukes proposals they are suggesting that B teams can be promoted throughout the FL structure but not into the PL. That means we, and many other clubs, could be prevented from competing at Championship level ever again. The more clubs that infiltrate the FL then the more will be displaced.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Why can't you see the obvious without having it all spelt out? Something's are just plainly wrong, this is one of them.
-
That's all very nice Martin - but how are posters on here able to rubbish an idea that is yet to be published?
Will they be reviewing the third Hobbit film later this week?
The proposal is in the public domain. I fail to see why it can't be discussed.
Anyway, I'm sure you'll look forward to us playing Chelsea B in a few year's time.
-
TRB - I have neither supported nor objected to the idea.
What I object to is small minded individuals writing off a proposal before it has even been published.
-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27327502
-
Well, it's a terrible idea...
-
It is, but I don't quite get it. It states about the start of it, but say West Brom had a B team, what happens to it upon their relegation, does it disappear? I don't quite understand that. Do newly promoted teams have the right to one - eg could Leicester have had one upon promotion. Where do they enter?
I'm not sure it would be great for fans of say Leeds to have to visit Man Utd B - it's just silly.
Imagine the league 1 play offs having Arsenal, Man C, Man U and Liverpool B in them - that would be bizarre if it happened, would it then end up with 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th in them?
The report raises some good points, but B teams aren't the way, improving coaching at clubs like ours and puttin the vast sums of Premier league and FA money into youth/U21 football makes much, much more sense.
-
Haven't read it all but this obsession with getting young pros playing first team football is still not addressing the key issue for me which is youth coaching.
It doesn't matter if a 19 year old is playing for Arsenal, Arsenal B or Accrington - if he wasn't taught well enough at 12-15 then it won't benefit the England team which is what most of this seems to be about. When our youngsters are better then by default less foreign players will be purchased.
I also believe Germany are looking into scrapping the current system they have over there with regards to "B" teams in the pyramid.
-
It is, but I don't quite get it. It states about the start of it, but say West Brom had a B team, what happens to it upon their relegation, does it disappear? I don't quite understand that. Do newly promoted teams have the right to one - eg could Leicester have had one upon promotion. Where do they enter?
I'm not sure it would be great for fans of say Leeds to have to visit Man Utd B - it's just silly.
Imagine the league 1 play offs having Arsenal, Man C, Man U and Liverpool B in them - that would be bizarre if it happened, would it then end up with 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th in them?
The report raises some good points, but B teams aren't the way, improving coaching at clubs like ours and puttin the vast sums of Premier league and FA money into youth/U21 football makes much, much more sense.
Take Money from the fat cats? Enter the real world mate, it's the FA and PL we're talking about here!
-
Last night: Football Association commission member Danny Mills says a B team league is not part of plans to improve English football. "B teams are on the agenda but not a B team league," Mills told Radio 5 live.
This afternoon: The creation of a new tier within the Football League to accommodate Premier League B teams is at the heart of the Football Association commission's four-point plan to boost English football.
Has Danny not read his own report?
-
Just had a quick scan through the report.
They want all this for, I quote... "a marginal improvement on the percentage of players with loan experiences that reach the first team".
i.e. The current loan system works just about as well as this proposal is projected to do with regards to the development of young players.
What are the chances of this nonsense actually becoming a reality? I hope the Football League and its clubs will provide enough resistance to see it thrown out. But on the other hand, there are several instances to suggest that the FA always get their way eventually.
-
Well the FL have just issued a rejection of this in their latest statement.
-
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s1m4k9
I like Stan Collymore's points on coaching
-
The Spanish system seems to have worked well for Marc De Val, doesn't it? Five years in Real Madrid's C team and still not ready for our Championship. :s
-
This is how well it (doesn't) work in Germany.
http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs
-
Haven't read it all but this obsession with getting young pros playing first team football is still not addressing the key issue for me which is youth coaching.
It doesn't matter if a 19 year old is playing for Arsenal, Arsenal B or Accrington - if he wasn't taught well enough at 12-15 then it won't benefit the England team which is what most of this seems to be about. When our youngsters are better then by default less foreign players will be purchased.
I also believe Germany are looking into scrapping the current system they have over there with regards to "B" teams in the pyramid.
To be fair to them, they do address coaching and grassroots and say some sensible things most of us could agree with:
•Area 3 - Coaching and coach development, essentially at grassroots level, have not yet reached a satisfactory level and impact.
•Area 4 - England lags behind in the quantity and quality of affordable grassroots facilities, particularly in the provision of all-weather pitches.
The trouble is, when your main proposal is something as far-fetched as their idea for B-Teams, there is a danger that the sensible stuff will get lost.
-
This is how well it (doesn't) work in Germany.
http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs
And as if to prove that there's no new idea under the sun, something similar was tried in Scotland after WW2 with little success.
http://scottish-football-historical-archive.com/cdiv.htm
I'd imagine the proposed League Three would have similar problems. The B teams would dominate it, but couldn't get promoted, thus blocking the way for the non-League teams in it.
It really is a rotten idea.
-
This is how well it (doesn't) work in Germany.
http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs
That article is 7 years old.
A more current perspective here:
http://www.espnfc.com/blog/_/name/bundesliga/id/647?cc=5739
Suggests the system has worked "too well". Depending on your perspective of course.
-
I've read somewhere (can't remember where) that they're doing away with it in Germany.
The clubs who have B Teams in the 3. Liga (Dortmund, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg etc.) apparently see it as a waste of time, and it's not seen to be helping the national side as they haven't won anything since 1996.
Even so, there seems to be a different culture in other countries, especially in Spain. This may help to explain the relative lack of resistance in the countries where they do this. I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I think I'm right in saying Spanish lower-league football is nowhere near as well supported as the English lower leagues, and doesn't have the same history as the Football League as a proper competition in its own right.
The average attendance in the Spanish second tier in 2013-14 for instance was about 7,000, making it nowhere near as well-watched as the Championship. I don't know how they do further down, but if 2nd tier attendances are that low on average, it suggests that the lower leagues aren't very well supported there.
Pib
Average attendances here.
http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm
There is nothing in Europe remotely like the support that our clubs get at Tier 4/5. Only Germany comes close at Tier 3 and even that's not a fair comparison - they only have 36 teams in the top 2 divisions and Tier 3 has only 20. So the Tier 3 sides are the 37th-56th highest ranked clubs. Whereas our L1 comprises the 45th-64th highest clubs in England.
-
Aye. I saw this on Twitter earlier. I think it's taken directly from the FL website. It certainly looks like it is...
(http://i58.tinypic.com/qyd5dl.jpg)
Shows quite clearly that tiers 2, 3, and 4 in this country are the highest supported leagues of their kind in Europe.
Obviously, as you highlight, the distributions may be different due to the number of teams, but I think it demonstrates the point nonetheless.
-
Is there nothing to be said for bringing back the Anglo-Italian Cup?
-
http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/the-football-association-say-no-to-b-teams#share (http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/the-football-association-say-no-to-b-teams#share)
-
And who says the youngsters will even be English?
-
This is how well it (doesn't) work in Germany.
http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs
That article is 7 years old.
A more current perspective here:
http://www.espnfc.com/blog/_/name/bundesliga/id/647?cc=5739
Suggests the system has worked "too well". Depending on your perspective of course.
Well, having read that it still says it's not working and that a feeder system, or loan system depending on your perspective, is the way forward. Hmmm, pretty much what we already have.
But having read both articles it's quite clear this brave new world for English football doesn't appear to be working as Greg Dyke would wish.
-
The thing is, these proposals won't help the national team one bit. The problem we have is in the scouting and the coaching. Until we value technical attributes over physical attributes we will continue to be crap. If it was as simple as just letting the youngsters getting experience then why not introduce a rule forcing the prem clubs to loan out a percentage of their youngsters, free of charge, to a club in the football league.
-
My big concern is that the Premier League and the FA will use their financial muscle to force this wretched plan through.
-
Yep. I'm guessing it's a possibility that they could hold the FL clubs to ransom over solidarity payments or something similar they're reliant on the PL/FA for.
-
I am fuming about this for a load of reasons and it just demonstrates the premier-scentric nature of our Football Association. The fact that the Football Conference board members have confirmed they were not even consulted reflects and reinforces the perceived FA's view of the lower league and the complete disregard for the supporters of their clubs.
Sky who are also Premier-Sentric have failed to interview anybody outside the FA, The Premier League or former Premiership players to gain their views.
Wouldn't it have been more simple and appropriate for the FA to just reconsider the work permit system, limit the number of non-EU players and enforce the fact that each premiership club had to play a certain number of home grown players within the first 11? This would have got round the fact that you can not stop EU players playing in England.
The whole thing stinks of Greg Dyke wanting being the ego-scentric sod he clearly is and his wish top leave his own legacy at what ever cost to lower league clubs.
we should also ask the question what happens to Premier league teams who are relegated, are they allowed to field a B side? i make the point again last night the FA are planning to franchise the premier league which, if this occurred, would answer that point. there will be no relegations/ promotions to or from the premiership in the future.
We and the rest of the football pyramid are slowing sleep walking into oblivion. Mark my words.
Ps that is me done with the Premier League, its filthy cash, the corrupt FA and Sky can consider my subscription cancelled.
-
Maybe it's time the Football League broke away from the PL?
-
Maybe it's time the Football League broke away from the PL?
That would suit the Premier league and the FA to the ground.
-
The Bolton chairman, a couple of years was talking about the championship becoming Premier2.There would be no promotion or relegation ,and only invited clubs in first season.Clubs like ours wouldnt be included ,but Sheff Utd and Coventry if they got their ground situation sorted would.
-
I for one welcome the report and see it is a positive step in English football.
Of course I don't necessarily agree with the proposals it lays out but I do commend the FA on finally making an attempt to change English football, in 2 months time when we have exited the World Cup after another unsuccessful campaign we will all be asking "what can we do to improve the National Squad?".
Clearly something needs to be done and I agree with the FA that we need to have the debate on this, not necessarily on "B" teams but on how we actually improve the amount of quality players we produce in our country. We keep hearing idealists bleating on about improving football at grassroots and the FA clearly see that as a key objective and continue to work on that but we do have to ask whether or not that is going to be enough.
What we have seen today is the FA come out and say the current situation is unacceptable and have challenged certain things that is wrong with the game such as the Bosman ruling and English football's ideology of looking overseas to improve their squad rather than home grown players. I won't bash them for that.
-
I for one welcome the report and see it is a positive step in English football.
Of course I don't necessarily agree with the proposals it lays out but I do commend the FA on finally making an attempt to change English football, in 2 months time when we have exited the World Cup after another unsuccessful campaign we will all be asking "what can we do to improve the National Squad?".
Clearly something needs to be done and I agree with the FA that we need to have the debate on this, not necessarily on "B" teams but on how we actually improve the amount of quality players we produce in our country. We keep hearing idealists bleating on about improving football at grassroots and the FA clearly see that as a key objective and continue to work on that but we do have to ask whether or not that is going to be enough.
What we have seen today is the FA come out and say the current situation is unacceptable and have challenged certain things that is wrong with the game such as the Bosman ruling and English football's ideology of looking overseas to improve their squad rather than home grown players. I won't bash them for that.
A debate needs contributions from all parties concerned, not just the ones with a benificial interest
-
I for one welcome the report and see it is a positive step in English football.
Of course I don't necessarily agree with the proposals it lays out but I do commend the FA on finally making an attempt to change English football, in 2 months time when we have exited the World Cup after another unsuccessful campaign we will all be asking "what can we do to improve the National Squad?".
Clearly something needs to be done and I agree with the FA that we need to have the debate on this, not necessarily on "B" teams but on how we actually improve the amount of quality players we produce in our country. We keep hearing idealists bleating on about improving football at grassroots and the FA clearly see that as a key objective and continue to work on that but we do have to ask whether or not that is going to be enough.
What we have seen today is the FA come out and say the current situation is unacceptable and have challenged certain things that is wrong with the game such as the Bosman ruling and English football's ideology of looking overseas to improve their squad rather than home grown players. I won't bash them for that.
A debate needs contributions from all parties concerned, not just the ones with a benificial interest
Of course it does, but the report only marks the beginning of the debate...
Page 15:
In order to address the lack of playing opportunities for English players developing
in England, the Commission has created the following proposals for discussion
and debate:
-
I for one welcome the report and see it is a positive step in English football.
Of course I don't necessarily agree with the proposals it lays out but I do commend the FA on finally making an attempt to change English football, in 2 months time when we have exited the World Cup after another unsuccessful campaign we will all be asking "what can we do to improve the National Squad?".
Clearly something needs to be done and I agree with the FA that we need to have the debate on this, not necessarily on "B" teams but on how we actually improve the amount of quality players we produce in our country. We keep hearing idealists bleating on about improving football at grassroots and the FA clearly see that as a key objective and continue to work on that but we do have to ask whether or not that is going to be enough.
What we have seen today is the FA come out and say the current situation is unacceptable and have challenged certain things that is wrong with the game such as the Bosman ruling and English football's ideology of looking overseas to improve their squad rather than home grown players. I won't bash them for that.
A debate needs contributions from all parties concerned, not just the ones with a benificial interest
Of course it does, but the report only marks the beginning of the debate...
If I as a manager at work would have declared to all my staff what was happening without any level of consultation with the staff, displaying a complete lack of regard for them and essentially saying I don't give a toss because me and the senior management are going ok what do you think the reaction would have been. No bleeding workforce that's what.
-
I for one welcome the report and see it is a positive step in English football.
Of course I don't necessarily agree with the proposals it lays out but I do commend the FA on finally making an attempt to change English football, in 2 months time when we have exited the World Cup after another unsuccessful campaign we will all be asking "what can we do to improve the National Squad?".
Clearly something needs to be done and I agree with the FA that we need to have the debate on this, not necessarily on "B" teams but on how we actually improve the amount of quality players we produce in our country. We keep hearing idealists bleating on about improving football at grassroots and the FA clearly see that as a key objective and continue to work on that but we do have to ask whether or not that is going to be enough.
What we have seen today is the FA come out and say the current situation is unacceptable and have challenged certain things that is wrong with the game such as the Bosman ruling and English football's ideology of looking overseas to improve their squad rather than home grown players. I won't bash them for that.
A debate needs contributions from all parties concerned, not just the ones with a benificial interest
Of course it does, but the report only marks the beginning of the debate...
If I as a manager at work would have declared to all my staff what was happening without any level of consultation with the staff, displaying a complete lack of regard for them and essentially saying I don't give a toss because me and the senior management are going ok what do you think the reaction would have been. No bleeding workforce that's what.
You have a point but lets not forget this is just a proposal, and I agree its quite a dangerous one at that and I can't see more than 15% of fans agreeing with it (being generous) and it will probably go no further but for years we have called the FA toothless and with no backbone or prepared to stand up for the English game. At least this report shows that the FA actually want to make a change for the better.
I agree with the FA's aims, I don't agree with how they want to get there.
-
I just don't see that the proposals will really help the England national team. How will we measure if its working? Do England have to win a World Cup?
We should simply address the premier league and the number of overseas players.
maybe best thing for the England team is for the country to leave the EU and then we can have proper rules about who can play in the PL.
-
But that's the problem Lee. They asked for submissions, we gave them a comprehensive one which they they ignored. What kind of debate is that?
-
I think the Belles fiasco showed that the FA aren't interested in anybody else's suggestions.
-
I for one welcome the report and see it is a positive step in English football.
Of course I don't necessarily agree with the proposals it lays out but I do commend the FA on finally making an attempt to change English football, in 2 months time when we have exited the World Cup after another unsuccessful campaign we will all be asking "what can we do to improve the National Squad?".
Clearly something needs to be done and I agree with the FA that we need to have the debate on this, not necessarily on "B" teams but on how we actually improve the amount of quality players we produce in our country. We keep hearing idealists bleating on about improving football at grassroots and the FA clearly see that as a key objective and continue to work on that but we do have to ask whether or not that is going to be enough.
What we have seen today is the FA come out and say the current situation is unacceptable and have challenged certain things that is wrong with the game such as the Bosman ruling and English football's ideology of looking overseas to improve their squad rather than home grown players. I won't bash them for that.
A debate needs contributions from all parties concerned, not just the ones with a benificial interest
Of course it does, but the report only marks the beginning of the debate...
If I as a manager at work would have declared to all my staff what was happening without any level of consultation with the staff, displaying a complete lack of regard for them and essentially saying I don't give a toss because me and the senior management are going ok what do you think the reaction would have been. No bleeding workforce that's what.
You have a point but lets not forget this is just a proposal, and I agree its quite a dangerous one at that and I can't see more than 15% of fans agreeing with it (being generous) and it will probably go no further but for years we have called the FA toothless and with no backbone or prepared to stand up for the English game. At least this report shows that the FA actually want to make a change for the better.
I agree with the FA's aims, I don't agree with how they want to get there.
I agree the English game needs to be developed but this is only part of the FAs end game and not in my opinion the major part. Premier league franchise is.
-
I think the Belles fiasco showed that the FA aren't interested in anybody else's suggestions.
Well that's mixing up two different arguments. However they can't ignore the FA Council, and that speaks for the whole of the game in this country. No easy ride.
-
If they are going to have a consultation why not tell folk exactly how they perceive the system will work? What happens to demoted premier league teams or promoted championship sides? Do the teams academies replace each other in the league? The fa must if known this question was going to come up and deliberately avoided giving guidance as they know the premier is heading for franchise.
-
Also has anybody considered the timing of the release is highly suspicious, within days of the football league season ending ( this avoids any embarrassing protests) and right before a World Cup in which we are likely to flop. Greg dyke and The Fa are as bent and as currupt as blatter and his boys.
-
But that's the problem Lee. They asked for submissions, we gave them a comprehensive one which they they ignored. What kind of debate is that?
I doubt they ignored it, but rather considered and then disagreed with it. Its whats Commissions do.
But, as we are all aware the Premier League now rules English football, the money from Sky and overseas television rights have seen less and less focus on actual 'fans' attending the game, TV revenue brings in more money, it's much more of a selling point for sponsors etc.,
However that is only applicable to the top teams in the Premier League, but its those teams that in effect bring in the money that gets shared down to the rest of us peasants. The power of the bigger clubs in governance terms has seen the dominant notion of what’s good for the likes of Chelsea, Manchester United and Arsenal as also being good for English football. I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's what happens in a capitalist market.
In the FA's proposal they are obviously using that to their advantage to try and improve the fortunes of the National Squad in a way that the bigger clubs would deem acceptable. I don't think B teams are the way forward but the fact that such a radical proposal has been put forward by our FA Chairman and his commission does at least show us 1 thing above else, they aren't happy with the status quo.
-
If they are going to have a consultation why not tell folk exactly how they perceive the system will work? What happens to demoted premier league teams or promoted championship sides? Do the teams academies replace each other in the league? The fa must if known this question was going to come up and deliberately avoided giving guidance as they know the premier is heading for franchise.
Whilst I don't agree with it, they do stipulate what happens:
"There would be promotion and relegation between the four leagues – League
1, League 2, League 3 and Conference Premier. B teams would be unable to
progress into the Championship and must always be at least one division
below the senior team."
Therefore to me it reads that should a team be relegated from the Premier League they have the right to keep a "B" team as long as it is 1 division below the senior team.
As for promoted Championship teams, it states Premier League teams in the 2015/16 season can be eligible for 2016/17 B teams, after that if any more Premier League teams want to join they would start in the Conference.
-
It's interesting that they incorporate the Conference Premier into their proposals, even though the governing body of the Conference has not been consulted at any stage.
-
If they are going to have a consultation why not tell folk exactly how they perceive the system will work? What happens to demoted premier league teams or promoted championship sides? Do the teams academies replace each other in the league? The fa must if known this question was going to come up and deliberately avoided giving guidance as they know the premier is heading for franchise.
Whilst I don't agree with it, they do stipulate what happens:
"There would be promotion and relegation between the four leagues – League
1, League 2, League 3 and Conference Premier. B teams would be unable to
progress into the Championship and must always be at least one division
below the senior team."
Therefore to me it reads that should a team be relegated from the Premier League they have the right to keep a "B" team as long as it is 1 division below the senior team.
As for promoted Championship teams, it states Premier League teams in the 2015/16 season can be eligible for 2016/17 B teams, after that if any more Premier League teams want to join they would start in the Conference.
Start in the conference replacing who? A team which would have been relegated or promoted? Or would they expand the league by potentially three teams? It's rubbish they are heading for franchise.
-
If they are going to have a consultation why not tell folk exactly how they perceive the system will work? What happens to demoted premier league teams or promoted championship sides? Do the teams academies replace each other in the league? The fa must if known this question was going to come up and deliberately avoided giving guidance as they know the premier is heading for franchise.
Whilst I don't agree with it, they do stipulate what happens:
"There would be promotion and relegation between the four leagues – League
1, League 2, League 3 and Conference Premier. B teams would be unable to
progress into the Championship and must always be at least one division
below the senior team."
Therefore to me it reads that should a team be relegated from the Premier League they have the right to keep a "B" team as long as it is 1 division below the senior team.
As for promoted Championship teams, it states Premier League teams in the 2015/16 season can be eligible for 2016/17 B teams, after that if any more Premier League teams want to join they would start in the Conference.
Start in the conference replacing who? A team which would have been relegated or promoted? Or would they expand the league by potentially three teams? It's rubbish they are heading for franchise.
From reading the report it looks like the initial suggestion is
2016/17: League 3 created with 10 B teams from PL clubs in 2015/16 and 10 conference teams that make up League 3. Should there be more than this they would have to start in the Conference. Should all 20 clubs want to have a B team then the other 10 would start in the Conference replacing the 10 who were placed in League 3. Assuming not all PL clubs would opt to do this then some Conference North/South Clubs will effectively be promoted into the Conference so the initial offset doesn't really effect the non-league or league clubs.
If after that there is more PL clubs (promoted to the PL) wanting a B team then the plan is to extend League 3 to 24 clubs. Because of the costing implications of having a B team (such as stadia, match day costs etc.,) it wouldn't really be financially viable for Championship clubs to sustain a B teams for more than a season so we can only imagine that through time B teams are pulled by Championship clubs who have been relegated and new B teams starting at the bottom of the pile, making it a self governing model.
Should new teams enter and no teams be pulled then I imagine the lower clubs in the Conference will be demoted but we have to remember that at the beginning 10 conference clubs will be 'promoted' to League 3 and up to 10 Conference North/South Clubs promoted to the Conference.
The FA do make it clear however that the final boundaries and guidelines would have to be decided by the leagues themselves.
-
If they are going to have a consultation why not tell folk exactly how they perceive the system will work? What happens to demoted premier league teams or promoted championship sides? Do the teams academies replace each other in the league? The fa must if known this question was going to come up and deliberately avoided giving guidance as they know the premier is heading for franchise.
Whilst I don't agree with it, they do stipulate what happens:
"There would be promotion and relegation between the four leagues – League
1, League 2, League 3 and Conference Premier. B teams would be unable to
progress into the Championship and must always be at least one division
below the senior team."
Therefore to me it reads that should a team be relegated from the Premier League they have the right to keep a "B" team as long as it is 1 division below the senior team.
As for promoted Championship teams, it states Premier League teams in the 2015/16 season can be eligible for 2016/17 B teams, after that if any more Premier League teams want to join they would start in the Conference.
Start in the conference replacing who? A team which would have been relegated or promoted? Or would they expand the league by potentially three teams? It's rubbish they are heading for franchise.
From reading the report it looks like the initial suggestion is
2016/17: League 3 created with 10 B teams from PL clubs in 2015/16 and 10 conference teams that make up League 3. Should there be more than this they would have to start in the Conference. Should all 20 clubs want to have a B team then the other 10 would start in the Conference replacing the 10 who were placed in League 3. Assuming not all PL clubs would opt to do this then some Conference North/South Clubs will effectively be promoted into the Conference so the initial offset doesn't really effect the non-league or league clubs.
If after that there is more PL clubs (promoted to the PL) wanting a B team then the plan is to extend League 3 to 24 clubs. Because of the costing implications of having a B team (such as stadia, match day costs etc.,) it wouldn't really be financially viable for Championship clubs to sustain a B teams for more than a season so we can only imagine that through time B teams are pulled by Championship clubs who have been relegated and new B teams starting at the bottom of the pile, making it a self governing model.
Should new teams enter and no teams be pulled then I imagine the lower clubs in the Conference will be demoted but we have to remember that at the beginning 10 conference clubs will be 'promoted' to League 3 and up to 10 Conference North/South Clubs promoted to the Conference.
The FA do make it clear however that the final boundaries and guidelines would have to be decided by the leagues themselves.
And then after all that, the b team belonging to a demoted club gets disbanded. Then what ? The players just get absorbed into the premier league squads? Imagine what that would do to the financial fair play system and the number of English youths being released.
-
In order to address the lack of playing opportunities for English players developing
in England, the Commission has created the following proposals for discussion
and debate:
But it's b*llocks. That is not the core of the problem. If it was, we would have been producing wonderful, world-leading footballers in the 1970s when there was a slack handful of foreigners (mainly a few dozen Scots, Welsh and Irish) in the English League. But we didn't. We produced Paul Marriner while Germany was producing Rummenigge, Italy was producing Rossi and Argentina was producing Maradona.
Italy was buying in lots of world-class talent into Serie A at that time. Didn't stop them producing a World Cup winning squad on 82.
We are obsessed with finding trite solutions to our national failure. This looks like yet another one. Give the 19 year olds a better environment and we'll be OK. But the problems are far deeper. If the 19 year olds were any good, they would blossom anyway. It is precisely because they are not good enough that PL clubs buy in better 19 year olds from elsewhere.
The problems go right down to the way in which kids are coached and the way in which coaches are produced. Look at our woeful inability to develop top class managers. Who is the best English manager of his generation? Harry f**king Redknapp. He'd barely make it into the global top 50 of the past decade.
-
If they are going to have a consultation why not tell folk exactly how they perceive the system will work? What happens to demoted premier league teams or promoted championship sides? Do the teams academies replace each other in the league? The fa must if known this question was going to come up and deliberately avoided giving guidance as they know the premier is heading for franchise.
Whilst I don't agree with it, they do stipulate what happens:
"There would be promotion and relegation between the four leagues – League
1, League 2, League 3 and Conference Premier. B teams would be unable to
progress into the Championship and must always be at least one division
below the senior team."
Therefore to me it reads that should a team be relegated from the Premier League they have the right to keep a "B" team as long as it is 1 division below the senior team.
As for promoted Championship teams, it states Premier League teams in the 2015/16 season can be eligible for 2016/17 B teams, after that if any more Premier League teams want to join they would start in the Conference.
Start in the conference replacing who? A team which would have been relegated or promoted? Or would they expand the league by potentially three teams? It's rubbish they are heading for franchise.
From reading the report it looks like the initial suggestion is
2016/17: League 3 created with 10 B teams from PL clubs in 2015/16 and 10 conference teams that make up League 3. Should there be more than this they would have to start in the Conference. Should all 20 clubs want to have a B team then the other 10 would start in the Conference replacing the 10 who were placed in League 3. Assuming not all PL clubs would opt to do this then some Conference North/South Clubs will effectively be promoted into the Conference so the initial offset doesn't really effect the non-league or league clubs.
If after that there is more PL clubs (promoted to the PL) wanting a B team then the plan is to extend League 3 to 24 clubs. Because of the costing implications of having a B team (such as stadia, match day costs etc.,) it wouldn't really be financially viable for Championship clubs to sustain a B teams for more than a season so we can only imagine that through time B teams are pulled by Championship clubs who have been relegated and new B teams starting at the bottom of the pile, making it a self governing model.
Should new teams enter and no teams be pulled then I imagine the lower clubs in the Conference will be demoted but we have to remember that at the beginning 10 conference clubs will be 'promoted' to League 3 and up to 10 Conference North/South Clubs promoted to the Conference.
The FA do make it clear however that the final boundaries and guidelines would have to be decided by the leagues themselves.
And then after all that, the b team belonging to a demoted club gets disbanded. Then what ? The players just get absorbed into the championship squads? Imagine what that would do to the financial fair play system and the number of English youths being released.
-
If they are going to have a consultation why not tell folk exactly how they perceive the system will work? What happens to demoted premier league teams or promoted championship sides? Do the teams academies replace each other in the league? The fa must if known this question was going to come up and deliberately avoided giving guidance as they know the premier is heading for franchise.
Whilst I don't agree with it, they do stipulate what happens:
"There would be promotion and relegation between the four leagues – League
1, League 2, League 3 and Conference Premier. B teams would be unable to
progress into the Championship and must always be at least one division
below the senior team."
Therefore to me it reads that should a team be relegated from the Premier League they have the right to keep a "B" team as long as it is 1 division below the senior team.
As for promoted Championship teams, it states Premier League teams in the 2015/16 season can be eligible for 2016/17 B teams, after that if any more Premier League teams want to join they would start in the Conference.
Start in the conference replacing who? A team which would have been relegated or promoted? Or would they expand the league by potentially three teams? It's rubbish they are heading for franchise.
From reading the report it looks like the initial suggestion is
2016/17: League 3 created with 10 B teams from PL clubs in 2015/16 and 10 conference teams that make up League 3. Should there be more than this they would have to start in the Conference. Should all 20 clubs want to have a B team then the other 10 would start in the Conference replacing the 10 who were placed in League 3. Assuming not all PL clubs would opt to do this then some Conference North/South Clubs will effectively be promoted into the Conference so the initial offset doesn't really effect the non-league or league clubs.
If after that there is more PL clubs (promoted to the PL) wanting a B team then the plan is to extend League 3 to 24 clubs. Because of the costing implications of having a B team (such as stadia, match day costs etc.,) it wouldn't really be financially viable for Championship clubs to sustain a B teams for more than a season so we can only imagine that through time B teams are pulled by Championship clubs who have been relegated and new B teams starting at the bottom of the pile, making it a self governing model.
Should new teams enter and no teams be pulled then I imagine the lower clubs in the Conference will be demoted but we have to remember that at the beginning 10 conference clubs will be 'promoted' to League 3 and up to 10 Conference North/South Clubs promoted to the Conference.
The FA do make it clear however that the final boundaries and guidelines would have to be decided by the leagues themselves.
Let me get this right. The Big Idea is that we develop the next generation of world class players by playing the country's finest 19 year olds against Forest Green and Braintree?
I suspect the Spanish will not be pappering their trolleys tonight.
-
TRB - I have neither supported nor objected to the idea.
What I object to is small minded individuals writing off a proposal before it has even been published.
Seems to be a lot of small minded people out there wishing to sign the petition.
-
TRB - I have neither supported nor objected to the idea.
What I object to is small minded individuals writing off a proposal before it has even been published.
Seems to be a lot of small minded people out there wishing to sign the petition.
Well done for missing my point.
-
you had a point? :blink:
-
you had a point? :blink:
Frankly I'm not surprised you missed it Robert.
My point was how can people argue against something they've not read.
Now it's been published fine. Lee for example has clearly read it, and is making his points.
A petition, which I think is a waste of time, is fine - once the thing was set out in detail.
-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2623700/Greg-Dykes-plan-Premier-League-B-teams-end-disaster-just-like-Spain.html
Good to see the Mail, which I had feared might act as a cheerleader for Dyke's ill-conceived scheme, gives it a good panning.
-
We should simply address the premier league and the number of overseas players.
maybe best thing for the England team is for the country to leave the EU and then we can have proper rules about who can play in the PL.
I can't help thinking that Nigel Farage (who strikes me as probably being a rugger man) and UKIP are missing a trick here.
-
you had a point? :blink:
Frankly I'm not surprised you missed it Robert.
My point was how can people argue against something they've not read.
Now it's been published fine. Lee for example has clearly read it, and is making his points.
A petition, which I think is a waste of time, is fine - once the thing was set out in detail.
You can argue against the principles without having to know the finite detail. The FA had been notified some time ago that the concept of feeder clubs and B teams wouldn't be welcomed. This subject has been debated and discussed for some time, polls had been held and the majority were against.
How that makes anybody small minded is beyond me and quite frankly insulting.
-
you had a point? :blink:
Frankly I'm not surprised you missed it Robert.
My point was how can people argue against something they've not read.
Now it's been published fine. Lee for example has clearly read it, and is making his points.
A petition, which I think is a waste of time, is fine - once the thing was set out in detail.
You can argue against the principles without having to know the finite detail. The FA had been notified some time ago that the concept of feeder clubs and B teams wouldn't be welcomed. This subject has been debated and discussed for some time, polls had been held and the majority were against.
How that makes anybody small minded is beyond me and quite frankly insulting.
And yet, only two days ago one of the Committee members stated something in the national media that turned out to be the exact opposite in reality.
Call me old fashioned, but if I'm going to be outraged by something, I like to have read it, in full, first.
And quite frankly Martin, I couldn't care less if you feel insulted. I'm sure you'll cope. Most on the end of your barbs do.
-
Oh I'll cope. No problem there.
-
The football league are to discuss Dyke's proposals this week:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27681085
-
If we withdraw from the EU .. I will get extradited after 40 years on the continent but the FA could then impose as many English players on Premiership clubs as they liked. ( tongue in cheek of course)